Good Guy Lucifer

I don't know if it's specifically about the character as used by Vertigo, but it's using the picture of that particular character (it would have to use some picture identified by the artist as Lucifer/Satan anyway) and it is definitely a meme.

I think it's a discussion of the meme and possibly the alternate interpretation? Maybe just the meme.

Which, looking at the pics, just really comes off as self gratifications and in some cases poor understanding of the Bible. (Which is to be expected, since anyone can put text over an image.)

Most examples do point out that the Bible does come very close to almost confirming Written by the Winners though.

Use of the name "Lucifer" for the devil stems from a particular interpretation of Isaiah 14:3–20, a passage that does not speak of any fallen angel but of the defeat of a particular Babylonian King, whom the passage names [http://tinyurl.com/4y59tey Helel (הֵילֵל, Shining One)]], a Hebrew word that refers to the Day Star or Morning Star (the Latin term for which is Lucifer)[3] In 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word Lucifer is used to refer to the Morning Star, with no relation to the devil. In Revelation 22:16, Jesus himself is called the Morning Star, but not "Lucifer", even in Latin.

edited in the links from wikipedia.

but yes I view Lucifer as a good character, the character of god wants to keep humanity under his heel, Lucifer frees us from our enslavement.

edited 2nd Nov '11 7:21:02 AM by vanthebaron

plus one

edited 2nd Nov '11 7:18:41 AM by jasonwill2

Lucifer is basically a translation of Helel. They are cognates in mythology (god of light, son of the personification of dawn) and astronomy (Venus). The rest is sensationalist theologians making shit up.

Sounds pretty much like everyone here plays Shin Megami Tensei games basically or studies Gnosticism.

HA HA HA—No. I've read the bible, while in the Garden of Eden, we were subservient to YHWH. when the snake (the snake was just a snake in Genesis but was said to be Lucifer in Revelation) "tricked" us into eating the apple thus giving us knowledge and the light bulb going on in our skull and use realizing "he this guy is kind of a dick".

edited 2nd Nov '11 9:16:47 AM by vanthebaron

My favourite interpretation is that "knowledge of good and evil" is to be intended in the sense of "mastery of good and evil" — basically, being able to tell good from evil not by reference to God, the ultimate source of good, but through one's independent judgment — and, perhaps, even to be able to decide what is and isn't good. This was a true act of rebellion, and it fits nicely with the serpent's statement that the fruit would make Adam and Eve become "similar to God".

Plus, it is interesting to see how the first action of Adam and Eve, after having eaten the fruit, is to cover themselves — that is, to introduce a new moral principle, about modesty, which was not present in God's original design.

As for the devil, not much is known about him and his nature. One interesting speculation, that I found in good old Thomas Aquinas, is that his rebellion was not really about trying to overthrow God and become a new God — that would be logically impossible, according to Aquinas, and an angel certainly has sufficient knowledge of God to be able to notice that.

Rather, suggests Aquinas, the devil's sin was to try to be as God in likeness, and, most importantly, through his own forces and not through divine Grace.

That's a longish passage, but it is worth being quoted in full (Summa, Question 63, Article 3):

edited 2nd Nov '11 9:38:45 AM by Carciofus

The tropes actually have more verisimilitude I think if you look at them at a written by the winners type perspective. That's the long and the short of it.

I don't think any of that is real, of course, but still. I do think it's a legit way of looking at Popular Christian Culture.

If anything, it is more similar to propaganda sent in an occupied territory in order to encourage La Résistance.

The devil is referred to as "the prince of this world" and so on, and is established to have been mostly successful in his attempt at corrupting the human race and putting it under his dominion; and one message that is stated clearly is that people trying to oppose him are very likely to get a messy death, or worse, for their efforts. However, it is also stated that the devil's victories (even the more spectacular ones that are described, say, in the book of Revelation) are, at the end, illusory; and that, even though on Earth he may seem to be triumphant at times, ultimately his defeat and our liberation is ensured — actually, he already lost, and he is just trying to cause as much damage as possible before retreating.

I don't really see the whole "God=order=dictatorship", "devil=chaos=freedom" associations as even remotely plausible. The tyrant who would enslave humankind is the devil; not God, who would be perfectly content to allow humans to follow their own natures and wishes to their hearts' content, had not these natures and wishes been corrupted by the devil for his own purposes.

edited 2nd Nov '11 10:03:24 AM by Carciofus

Haha, it's a pretty amusing meme.

I DO think the Lucifer = Satan connection is tenious at best. From both a secular and a religious standpoint, though, I like the meme. Secularly because it's funny, and religiously because isn't Satan supposed to distort things so he looks like the good guy? Seriously, it's fucking perfect.

I don't really see the whole "God=order=dictatorship", "devil=chaos=freedom" associations as even remotely plausible. The tyrant who would enslave humankind is the devil; not God, who would be perfectly content to allow humans to follow their own natures and wishes to their hearts' content, had not these natures and wishes been corrupted by the devil for his own purposes.

Er, no, that actually makes the scenario more like propaganda by an evil dictator God, and further reinforces Written by the Winners. What better way to look like the good guy than to paint the other side as the "evil dictator", and claim tolerance and freedom as your hat?

So far, the is as much evidence to support one side as there is to the other, although there is more evidence to suggest that the "evil tyrant" is Yahweh.

This is why William Blake is a genius. His character Urizen can both be interpreted as the biblical god and Satan.

@Van: You will note, though, that the Bible never mentions an apple, and that the serpent did not exactly lie to begin with. He said "ye shall be as gods," and sure enough, the Lord God said, "the man has become one of us, knowing good and evil." It's a Promethean story that privileges obedience over freedom.

edited 2nd Nov '11 10:25:43 AM by kashchei

It can be hard to claim that Satan is the bad guy when God is the one that has committed genocide and threw a united humanity back to strife with the Flood and the Tower of Babel respectively.

Also, in the Garden of Eden the snake told the truth and God lied saying they would die (and the term used precludes it meaning die eventually).

edited 2nd Nov '11 10:31:15 AM by BigMadDraco

to which I say "shouldn't it be the other way around, freedom over blind obedience?"

Satan is not a name. Satan means accuser (prosecutor is more like the original meaning).

edited 2nd Nov '11 10:30:03 AM by vanthebaron

Of course, do note that there are two trees in the Garden. One of them (the one whose fruits have been consumed) grants gnosis, the other presumably grants immortality and/or godlike powers, depending on the interpretation of the verses. God prevented mankind from having access to the second tree by banishment from the Garden.

And I the only one who gets Zeus like vibes from preventing someone from achieving your level of power?

edited 2nd Nov '11 10:49:33 AM by Carciofus

I don't buy that. A lot of pain, corruption, and inequality comes from the fact that people can die. In parallel stories, just like in this one, the intent is clearly to punish, not to protect.

Which is why I subscribe to the fortunate fall theory myself.

@Carciofus:

"He's a hedonist at heart. All those fasts and vigils and stakes and crosses are only a façade. Or only like the foam on the seashore. Out at sea, out in His sea, there is pleasure, and more pleasure. He makes no secret of it; at His right hand are ‘pleasures for evermore' ... He has a bourgeois mind. He has filled His world full of pleasures. There are things for humans to do all day long without His minding in the least—sleeping, washing, eating, drinking, making love, playing, praying, working. Everything has to be twisted before it’s any use to us. We fight under cruel disadvantages. Nothing is naturally on our side." — The Screwtape Letters

I have to run, I'll reply to the rest later.

edited 2nd Nov '11 10:55:14 AM by Carciofus

Not sure where the idea Christianity is the biggest religion comes from, anyway. About a third of the world population is nominally christian.

I'de like to point out the the lagrest religious group is "Not Christain"

You know, for every Christian out there who says the Devil/Lucifer/Satans minor victories on earth aren't valuable and that no matter what he will lose because it was foretold in the bible, I lean towards sympathy for Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate.

When Kevin prompts that question to the devil, he says "Of course it says that, consider the source!"

You can outright lie in a history book if none of the dissenting faction is around to say otherwise, for all we know the Devil could have a leg up on God, and we wouldn't know it since the only source people have on that conflict is biased based on being written by an opposing side.

Read the Old Testament, God has done way more dickish things than cooking the books in his favor.

edited 2nd Nov '11 11:20:36 AM by Barkey

No other religion aside from perhaps Islam has as much followers as Christianity. This is why so many posts declaring Atheism as not being a trend have occured, since in most countries Xianity makes up to more than 80% of the population while lack of religion barely goes above 2%.

Ideologically correct or not, most christians oppose viciously Lucifer, so even if they aren't what Jesus wanted, their faith alone works against the idea that Satan holds any real power.