Shouldn't we be listing examples of characters?: English Rose

I think it might work as a redirect to Proper Lady. Reading that page, the qualities are nearly all the same; and looking at the women who are listed as examples, the appearance is not a clear-cut set of criteria.

I could go with that, if we added a small mention on the Proper Lady page about English Rose, like "In Britain, a beautiful Proper Lady is sometimes called an English Rose."

I'd support that.

You mean instead of the current "Chances are that she is an English Rose, especially with dark hair and fair skin" line and the entry in Related Tropes that makes it sound like English Rose is strictly an appearance trope ("English Rose - another typically British character with similar properties; popular standard for a Proper Lady's looks.") ?

That works.

edited 2nd Nov '11 2:04:49 PM by Madrugada

I'm really hesitant to kill a England specific character/appearance type given the number of Japan specific character types tropes we have like Yamato Nadeshiko and Hime Cut.

I really do agree. This may be the British version of Yamato Nadeshiko, but it's as valid a trope as that is.

Nobody's being specific with a definition.

Wasn't that what Proper Lady was for?

edited 2nd Nov '11 4:54:48 PM by captainpat

Proper Lady is meant to be the supertrope for all countries. That doesn't stop us from having cultural specific subtropes.

Ok, so differentiates English Rose from other types of Proper Ladies? This page really needs a specific definition.

Hmm wow first this seems to be a look version of Proper Lady but its not?... really confusing. (Like Black and White Beauty being the look version of Yamato Nadeshiko)

Reading the thing I instantly thought of "a proper 'modern' 1910 - 30s-ish woman" look that shows up in period pieces (and the first example that comes to mind was Japanese adapting modern western ideas and looks.)◊.

edited 2nd Nov '11 6:04:33 PM by Raso

She's British. She cooks. She cleans. She's not required to be wealthy as long as she's sweet and cultured. She's protestant. She's has one of a handful of acceptable accents. She will be a member of the Women's League in more modern works. She's friendly. She's sweet.

A lot of it is directly tied into British culture though. It's hard to define without going into a treatise on the place in much the same way it's hard to define Yamato Nadeshiko without a lecture on Japanese culture. The variations are subtle, and the biggest difference is just the lenses of nationality.

I think we need to establish a proper series of examples to determine if this is a trope or not.

From Austen, who would count? Elizabeth Bennnett seems the archetype of a Spirited Young Lady, while Jane is a Proper Lady. Either? Both?

edited 2nd Nov '11 6:15:57 PM by Falco

I hate specific examples. I never know the ones people bring up.

From the archived discussion: I called this a character only to find an index to fit the trope. If anyone can figure out how to fit a certain actor type onto any available index, I encourage that person to cut all the references to a character type.

So, really this was written to be like Shakespearian Actors, Comic Actors and other actor types.

edited 2nd Nov '11 6:42:45 PM by Auxdarastrix

What? That is really subjective then. An actor can't fit the definition that shima gave above (that I generally agree with).

In that case, cutlist and send it back to YKTTW.

What the author may have intended in our looser days and the actual trope are not always the same thing. This is certainly a trope that applies to character types and while it's something that actresses can be type cast as, it doesn't mean that the roll is the same as the actress that plays it.

I've added more options to the crowner: Cut; Cut and re-YKTTW; and Clarify the description into a character type.

Cut and re-YKKTW is sort of a cop out really. It's really a last ditch effort. For older things like this running them through YKKTW while a page with not as many examples serves as a place holder works better. It's what we did for Living Ship.

It has NO actual character examples. Running it through YKTTW will allow people to contribute those in a place that's meant for just that.

We can run it through YKTTW without cutting the page though.

Ok, I'd be down with cutting out the actors list and slimming down the definition and then sending it to YKTTW for examples.

Yes, I think YKTTW'ing is a good solution.

edited 2nd Nov '11 8:30:47 PM by troacctid

Support.

I think part of the difficulty we are having with this trope is that the term doesn't seem to be used that much outside of England, and I get the impression that it is an older term that our relatively young user base may not use as much.

Still, I definatly support sending it to YKTTW to try and fix it and collect examples.

English Rose is not a specific look, but it most certainly does define the looks of the characters.

• looks ethnically traditionally British, with fair skin.
• hair can be of any shade as long as it isn't too exotic — wavy, light brown or copper hair is most archetypal, as well as hairstyles more 'natural' and less fabricated than of her peers, but any moderate and understated hairstyle fitting the period fits the type
• is more on the petite side, and slender — an English Rose can sometimes be a bit chubby, but is never very tall (outside of modeling business use of the trope) or of very substantial build
• is not dramatically beautiful, but modestly beautiful, kind of like the girl next door, but with classic beauty rather than youthful prettiness
• has not too sexy a figure, but is rather modestly endowed
• dresses conservatively and modestly
• is fair skinned, has a rosy glow to her cheeks rather than being eerily pale
• has gentle eyes, that are almond shaped or drooping rather than cat-like (following the Japanese DroopyEyes = gentle, CattyEyes = active stereotypes)
• has small lips, that may or may not be full, but are more precious and delicate than provoking and sexy — lip movements per emotions are also delicate and understated as opposed to wide smiles and passionate grimaces
• acts in a gentle, composed manner common to Proper Ladies
• gets her delicacy played up with fluffy, flowing, and softly glowing visual elements

//edit, forgot about the lips and hair styles

edited 4th Nov '11 1:54:18 AM by peccantis