Opinion: American military should get out of Japan & Europe

I believe that this strategic decision would be beneficial to all parties involved, and here's why:

1. Right now, European countries share an economic, but not a political, union - and the system is falling apart due to lack of political cohesion. Now, if all of Europe were suddenly forced to defend itself instead of relying on the United States, that would force a political union to naturally come about. And frankly, a Europa Universal would be a good thing (its one of that crazy Napoleon's few good ideas) - it would be good for Europe, and good for the world at large (because we simply cannot handle another nightmare like the first two world wars).

2. The Japanese are ready to defend themselves, and right now we need an aggressive, paranoid Japan in the world to hold back the Chinese and North Korea. There's a saying that a lion will take its cubs and throw them off a cliff in order to make them stronger, and I think that if America continues to coddle the Japanese by providing them with military power then the Japanese will never learn to stand on their own two feet.

3. This would allow America to cut about half of its defense budget, while still maintaining enough presence in the vital Pacific trade block to hold back the Chinese. We could even relocate our resources from Okinawa to Taiwan, to better defend the most likely area of Chinese aggression.

We already had this thread, but it sort of flamed out, so...

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: yes, but retain nominal military ties via arms deals and intermilitary training sessions.

Us Euro's already defend ourselves but I'm assuming you've not heard of the RAF or the Royal Navy.

Well of course. I'm not saying we abandon our allies to their own fates, just that we respect their ability to defend themselves.

Great Britain isn't the one I'm really targeting here. It's continental Europe that has really over-relied on NATO for some things, such as self-defense, that a country really ought to take care of on its own.

edited 23rd Oct '11 12:46:06 PM by MyGodItsFullofStars

Yeah, because the French are Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys and Germany hasn't recovered from WW 2.

Bleh... Europe really doesn't have anything to fear from Russia, directly and militarily. If us leaving leaves some kind of substantial hole in their defenses, then they aren't spending enough money on military stuff.

Japan (and Germany, but less so) need to get their fat heads out of their collective World War Two-stained asses and realize that just because they fucked up once and very badly doesn't mean they're disqualified from defending themselves or helping others out, respectively.

Even South Korea would probably benefit from less relying on the US and more having a top-of-the-line military in its own right. Either way, if North Korea actually invades them they're fucked, so the US troops aren't making a difference and are in harm's way for nothing.

I'm against the idea, on the grounds if this does happen then my being stationed in Germany won't happen.

You still could, in theory, as part of an intermilitary training program.

Either way, I'm afraid that stationing is costing the US a fortune it no longer has and was designed for a threat that no longer exists...

I'm not expecting Russia or China to go full on retarded and attack anytime soon.

So yes.

Europe yes. Let the weak bastards flap in the breeze. Never again shall we help those ungrateful, conniving, leeching bastards.

Asia, not yet. Between the Chinese and the 8 million strong North Korean military, we cannot afford to leave it yet. Someday maybe we can leave some of our responsibilities in Asia, but that day is not today.

edited 23rd Oct '11 1:24:08 PM by MajorTom

I was waiting for Tom's European Hate Boner to show up.

The 50,000 troops in South Korea are wasted since if North Korea ever became totally retarded and attacked we wouldn't win anyway. Besides, it also gives South Korea an excuse to be lax in keeping its military up-to-date and battle ready. We'd be better off working to train the South Koreans and doing better arms deals than just trying to do it for them.

Japan just needs a proper military, period.

edited 23rd Oct '11 1:26:14 PM by USAF713

"Major Tom's European Hate Boner" would be an awesome band name...

That being said, even if Tom is a bit aggressive when it comes to giving his opinion, doesn't make him mistaken. America's simply bleeding money right now on defending Europe from the Soviets - it is time to re-think our role in that part of the world, to say the least.

Also, I think Russia would calm down loads if America stopped talking about missile defense systems in Europe and started to draw down their troop presence.

Whats that Tom? Oh wait, I can't hear you over the nukes we have.

If you insist on laying your dicks on the table, gentlemen, I will drop a sledgehammer on them.

They've done the exact opposite in the last 20 years. Ever hear of the K2 Blank Panther main battle tank? In some ways it's boasted to be better than the Abrams. They know they are outnumbered 4 to 1 on the battlefield and cannot rely on us to magically insta-teleport 1 million US troops to the Korean Peninsula. Thus they are aggressively modernizing their military.

Well, good, then they can afford to replace the measly 50,000 guys they'd be losing if the US pulled out. They'd be better off with logistical and technical support than manpower, since we aren't willing to actually put a shitton of guns there and the number we have just provides 50,000 more targets for the North Koreans to haphazardly empty AK-47s into.

I'm pretty sure tanks wont be an issue if we have the advantage of the skies, but I dunno.

I'm pretty sure the moment NK tries to mobilize the tanks everyone would be on them like flies on shit.

That too. North Korea isn't stupid. All that military force is just for show, to keep the foreign aid coming.

We'd have something to fear if we started talking about ending the humanitarian aid to North Korea, not if we start talking about pulling out the troops.

^^ A lot of NK facilities are underground such as airfields, artillery positions (missile, rocket and gun), vehicle/tank depots, ammunition dumps, fuel storage and more. Truth be told we'd be vastly underestimating what we think they are capable of just relying on what we can see in the skies and from space.

Secondly, the border is extremely well-defended. It is nigh-impossible to conduct helicopter operations over the southern quarter of the country owing to sheer number of AA guns and missiles deployed there. A lot of their equipment may be old and ineffective against our best stuff but it is still very effective against just about everything else be they APC's, Humvees, trucks, infantry, helicopters and more.

^ We don't provide a dime of humanitarian aid to NK. Nobody does except China.

edited 23rd Oct '11 1:39:38 PM by MajorTom

And that would promptly end if they attacked South Korea. Their leadership is getting rich with the status quo. The threat of war is just their way of preventing anyone else from interfering with their exploitation.

North Korea is simply the largest-scale hostage situation in the history of humankind.

In the meantime, I still say that Japan should just foot its own military bills, and if they want they can buy our stuff.

Article 9, Japanese constitution remember? Even if we left tomorrow and took everything with us, they are still unable to field a military legally.

So far they use the loophole that self-defense is okay to great effect. They just have to get a little bit more defensive is all

Only because you made them include that clause Tom

However, maybe the Yanks should go home because then we could have our own nuclear weapons industry instead of buying it from the US.

edited 23rd Oct '11 1:44:25 PM by whaleofyournightmare

North Korea is a freak from the Cold War era. The main strategic task in Korea is not really defense of the South so much as helping the Kim Dynasty go down the pan without it lashing out at its southern neighbor.

I think at this point in time, the South Korean armed forces are well capable of absorbing and defeating a North Korean invasion. The problem is the price in blood; it is imprudent to expect token Allied casualties along the lines of the First Gulf War or any of the Western "interventions" we've witnessed based around precision weapons, air power, and "surgical strikes". (That is, unless the NKs did not manage to absorb any lessons from Desert Storn and Kosovo)

edited 23rd Oct '11 10:13:39 PM by Breakerchase