"Serious" = good?

On some TV Tropes pages (and on the internet more generally, I suppose), there seems to be a trend towards emphasising that some works of fiction are "serious", and thus deserve particular appreciation.

A lot of the time, it seems kind of like an attempt to avoid conceding that we're really part of a Periphery Demographic in such cases.

Certainly, we can allow for stuff that's put in for the sake of parents who have to sit through the programme or read the book to their children. However, I think not cover their backsides with desperate-seeming attempts to look like the kids' cartoon they like is actually for grown-ups (often on the basis of dubious evidence).

I mean, why can't something like that be appreciated for what it is? Do we try to push this idea that fiction has to be "serious" or "adult" before we can say we like it?

Or maybe I'm just cherry-picking, I don't know. I probably couldn't even come up with examples, though I'm quite sure that it's an attitude that does exist.

True Art Is Angsty. 'Nuff said.

Stuff what I do.

I don't think "serious" has to mean "angsty".

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Because manchildren need to validate watching a children's cartoon by spinning a yarn about how it's actually an allegory for the Crusades or some shit.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

Are you on about My Little Pony?

Do people need to justify what they like?

Dutch Lesbian

Just a generalization. My justification for liking cartoons is that I'm easily amused.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

It probably is a saving face thing a lot of the time.

I think there's also sometimes a tendency to conflate taking the writing process seriously with depth or realism, which doesn't always hold true. Thinking less of cartoons here and more of series like Torchwood, episodes of which vary from "pretty serious" to "utterly silly", and fans bicker about which ones are better.

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Because certain people feel insecure about what they like and don't like, and want to create an image of being "connoisseurs" who only appreciate great works steeped in symbolism and meaningful discussion.

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.

It's the closest trope we have, and in any case the two phenomena are closely related.

edited 13th Oct '11 1:11:36 PM by Karalora

Stuff what I do.

I think that is because there are certain other people who are overly concerned with what anyone should or should not like. They can be incredibly judgemental and dismissive of anything they've decided isn't for them or people like them; as this is about their own validation, rather than the merits of the show/genre/whatever itself.

Serious has its merits, certainly. Hardship has a way of showing us things about characters that we don't always want to look at. Sometimes it shows us that someone is a lot stronger or wiser than we thought. These, like pretty much all works of fiction, are reflections of us: things to take away and recognize in or make a part of ourselves.

Something that tends to get lost in the process though is that "serious" is not an end in itself. It's a vehicle to depth, nothing more; that depth must already be there for "serious" to be meaningful.

And all that said, about half of my favorite works are for the most part unrepentantly silly and lighthearted. There's a lot to be said for a well-placed dose of concentrated joy.

By coincidence, certainly. My favorite "serious" works tend to be those that refuse to angst for long though. The payoff of angst isn't angst, it's seeing it surmounted.

edited 13th Oct '11 3:25:01 PM by Pykrete

I know that Serious Sam is good.

"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel

I think this is true, and it's kind of annoying. It's one thing to criticise somebody for bullshitting about why a series is good; it's quite another to do that when you've already put them on the defensive by being unpleasant towards them for liking it at all.

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My problem generally isn't with a work being serious or silly, it's when it's schizophrenic about which one it wants to be - although my reaction will probably be worse to out-of-place lighthearted comedy than to sudden serious moments.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

True Art Is Realistic?

Thank you for that helpful, balanced, and insightful contribution.

edited 14th Oct '11 1:21:31 AM by JethroQWalrustitty

the statement above is false

Obviously if the work doesn't contain any social commentary, political struggle or philosophical theme then it's rubbish and should be dismissed for not attempting to be mature.

Damn those kind of works, damn them!

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."

Maturity Is Serious Business

This is what I can think of why the feeling that "Serious=good" be around. This is a notion which reinforces the Comedy Ghetto and commences the "True Art is [insert random notion in link with the "serious" here.]"

edited 14th Oct '11 1:31:57 AM by Ailedhoo

I’m a lumberjack and I’m ok. I sleep all night and work all day.

^^ I don't think anyone would argue that a work that is lacking those things automatically sucks, but those elements do add another dimension to a work, which is often interesting or refreshingly thought-provoking.

edited 14th Oct '11 1:38:06 AM by BobbyG

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I think that it's more works that take themselves seriously rather than works that try to be mature and adult. I think a work that takes its own premise (a man dressing up like a bat and punching criminals, for example) seriously and treats it like real people n a real situation will result in a deeper connection with the audience who will, in turn, take it seriously.

The other end of the stick is when something realises how weird it is and plays to that weirdness for comedic effect. The result might not be a mature and intriguing drama but like any work if done well it can be just as entertaining to an audience. Some works, of course, can lend themselves to a bit of both provided its well written.

Ultimatley it comes down to the Fan Dumb arguing over which personal preference is "better".

edited 14th Oct '11 1:58:34 AM by TheBatPencil

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Most of my favorite works tend to have both silliness and seriousness. In fact, I don't think it'd be completely inappropriate to claim that the quality of the writing can be judged solely by how well the transition between the two is made.

Well, if there's a series that's on one side that suddenly and without warning switches to the other, it might be taken as an example of bad writing.

That's not really what I was talking about, though. I think the link to Maturity Is Serious Business sort of sums up what I was trying to put across. It really might be down to what we might describe as a sort of "nerd insecurity".

Pretty much what Kitsune said.

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

Man, those are usually my favorites. See Shadow Hearts, etc. There's a lot to be said for a writer who can believably put some g's into the mood.

When it doesn't happen well, it's usually because the work doesn't already have an established pattern of silliness-during-substance, tried to do it out of nowhere, and did it tastelessly (see CAD).

Often times it is. I still watch kids' movies, and I'm impressed at the subtle political themes that get covered, like A Bug's Life has for the few controlling the many through fear, or like Monsters Inc has for energy issues and corporate America.

Much like with Getting Crap Past the Radar, it's the subtlety itself that makes it more interesting than its unsubtle counterparts in family-unfriendly works. (Revenge Of The Sith, as much as I liked it otherwise, wasn't very impressive in its approach to subtlety.)

edited 14th Oct '11 10:40:00 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Tone of work has little to do with quality of its content. For example, there are many reasons I can bring to an argument as to why Terry Pratchett is the best fiction writer of the 20th, and, so far, the 21st century, yet few of his works would count as "serious". And that's the reason they are good.

edited 14th Oct '11 10:51:35 AM by Korochun

When you remember that we are all mad, all questions disappear and life stands explained.