Possible rename suggestion: Bolivian Army Ending

Jovian; you've gotten yourself confused. Bolivian Army Ending is for the end of an entire work. Bolivian Army Cliffhanger is for the end of a season / book in the series. I'm proposing that the misuse Bolivian Army Ending has attracted (the fate of any number of characters is left uncertain) be called Uncertain Doom (someone else's name, but fitting for the use).

In other words, the split you're arguing against has already happened. Bolivian Army Ending is defined for the end of an entire works, while Bolivian Army Cliffhanger is specifically for when a season finale is uncertain, in order to encourage people to buy the next story in the series. (Executives buy the next season, readers buy the next book)

That's not the split I'm proposing, that's the split I'm arguing against.

What I'm proposing is the creation of a new supertrope called Uncertain Doom where a character faces overwhelming odds but their ultimate fate is left ambiguous, regardless of where it falls in the narrative (eg, it's not restricted to being an Ending Trope). Bolivian Army Ending would be a subtrope to that where it is an Ending Trope and renamed to Uncertain Doom Ending to fix the naming problem. Bolivian Army Cliffhanger would be lumped with either Uncertain Doom or Uncertain Doom Ending, depending on whether we decide that Uncertain Doom Ending only counts for the ending of the work as a whole, or if endings of individual episodes/chapters/etc count.

edited 2nd Jan '12 10:48:18 AM by NativeJovian

You're not correctly reading my posts. Calm down and try again.

Well, figures that the one word I misread is the important one.

In that case, I'm not sure what your point is. I'm proposing that two tropes be lumped, you're pointing out that they're currently split. Presumably you feel that they should remain split, but you don't actually present any reasoning for why they should.

Because our disagreement comes not from our idea for three tropes, but a fourth trope, and the reasons behind them. In the interest of clarifying, I will summarize what I advocate.

Uncertain Doom - supertrope for when the fate of any number of characters is left uncertain. Can be used for the end of a movie. Avoids Downer Ending and And the Adventure Continues, because it operates on the Tethercat Principle. Compare to Disney Death.

Bolivian Army Cliffhanger - for when a work ends, but the ending will be resolved if the work continues. For season, volume, novel endings. Also, when a movie series is made, the endings of each movie may qualify.

Our Hero Is Dead - for when other characters or the narrator declares a protagonist to be awaiting his death, but you know that there is another chapter/episode. Only applies across the short-term.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. Are you proposing that we rename Bolivian Army Ending to Uncertain Doom and that's it, or are you saying that we should rename Bolivian Army Ending to Uncertain Doom and also expand it to include non-ending situations?

I'm similarly confused. Crazysamaritan, to clarify, are you suggesting that the supertrope replaces Bolivian Army Ending, instead of being proposed as a new trope? If so, are you suggesting that we simply don't have a trope specifically for when a work ends on a Bolivian Army Ending, but we DO have a separate trope for when that ending is just the cliffhanger in an ongoing series?

Sorry, Sorry. I wasn't clear enough on the action I was proposing.

Actions;

Our Hero Is Dead is unchanged. Bolivian Army Ending gets renamed to Uncertain Doom, because current use is for what I described. All examples of an ongoing work that uses an Uncertain Doom ending for a body of the work (book 3 of a series, grand finale of a tv show, volume 4 of a Manga) gets moved to Bolivian Army Cliffhanger. Ongoing series are a special case, distinct from when it happens at the end of a one-shot work for two reasons.

Reason 1, it requires knowledge of authorial intent. You don't always know the author intended for the work to end that way, especially if they die.

Reason 2, it can be used for pressure. With an Uncertain Doom, creators have leverage against the executives to resolve the conflict by continuing the story. Executives have leverage to rewrite acting contracts or they'll eliminate their characters.

So while there is a distinction between a novel or a chapter with a Bolivian Army Ending, there is no real distinction between two novels of an ongoing series when they both use one. If enough time elapsed between the novels to change character sets, it can even be difficult to determine which ending came first.

To specifically answer - I am suggesting that the supertrope replaces Bolivian Army Ending, instead of being proposed as a new trope. I am suggesting that a work which ends with a Bolivian Army Ending is the most common form of the trope, with relatively few exceptions. Amoung the exceptions are during a work (in universe lampshaded examples only), and works that span multiple editions.

I think there is a narrative difference between the end of a chapter, a single novel, and any one volume of a multivolume work. When it happens to individual characters mid-story, it is most similar to the end of a single novel, and otherwise Too Rare To Trope.

edited 2nd Jan '12 8:10:03 PM by crazysamaritan

The non-ending examples are simply missing supertrope syndrome; let's make Uncertain Doom to sop them up and leave this one as it was intended to be.

Which example is "non-ending"? The one where it happens to one character, the one where it happens to part of the story, or the one where it happens to the entire story, before a new story is written for the characters to continue?

When it happens during any part of the story that isn't the ending. For example, Firefly has this happen at the beginning with the Battle of Serenity Valley, and Star Craft uses it about three quarters of the way through the first (of three) campaigns.

I agree with post 34. While I think that a supertrope needs to be created to deal with misuse, I don't think that getting rid of the original ending trope is the best solution. As I've been trying to say, I think this plays out differently when it is the end of a work than when it occurs elsewhere in the work. I do NOT think that lumping the examples of the beginning or middle of a work into a trope that was originally about endings is a good way to handle it. I understand that that's how it's been used, but we don't have to let the misuse dictate the meaning of the original trope.

In other words, I'm suggesting we do the following:

1) Create Uncertain Doom (or something with a similar name) as a new trope, moving the "bad" examples out of Bolivian Army Ending into the new trope. It becomes the supertrope.

2) Rename Bolivian Army Ending, IF that's the consensus of this thread. (Since it is named after a work not everyone is familiar with.) Likewise, if we rename Bolivian Army Ending, we'll have to rename Bolivian Army Cliffhanger, for the same reason.

3) If necessary, revise the description of Bolivian Army Ending to make it crystal clear which examples go there, which go in Uncertain Doom, and which go in the cliffhanger trope. Clean up examples as needed.

Once people have a trope like Uncertain Doom to use, they will hopefully quit misusing Bolivian Army Ending.

edited 2nd Jan '12 9:13:22 PM by TTurtle

I agree, and will add that the film the trope is named for is forty-three years old, which strikes me as way higher than the average age of readers and editors here.

Also, as the trope page itself says, the film in question doesn't end with a whole army, but just a small squad of soldiers.

Discussion seems to be dying down. Should we do a crowner to figure out what to do with this trope?

Yes

What exactly would the crowner options be?

1. Rename Bolivian Army Ending?
2. Create Uncertain Doom as a supertrope?
3. Lump Bolivian Army Cliffhanger with new Uncertain Doom supertrope?
4. Lump Bolivian Army Cliffhanger with Bolivian Army Ending?

Those would all be independent up/down options. Anything else that needs to go up?

Switch "cliffhanger" with "ending" for option 3 (you're still mixing them up ;) ) and remember to label that all four options can happen, although if #4 and #3 pass, we may need a trs thread for Bolivian Army Cliffhanger.

Edit; #3 would require that #2 passes.

edited 5th Jan '12 1:57:46 PM by crazysamaritan

No, that's deliberate. You think that Bolivian Army Cliffhanger is a legitimate trope, distinct from the Uncertain Doom supertrope and the current Bolivian Army Ending trope. I think it should be lumped with one of those two. Options 3 and 4 are mutually exclusive.

edited 5th Jan '12 3:01:25 PM by NativeJovian

Options 2, 3, and 4 winning would mean that both tropes get merged under the title Uncertain Doom.

You still have to change option 3, because this isn't the Bolivian Army Cliffhanger trope thread.

edited 5th Jan '12 3:24:37 PM by crazysamaritan

Option 2 is to create Uncertain Doom as a supertrope to Bolivian Army Ending; they would remain separate tropes. Options 3 and 4 are mutually exclusive, so they can't both happen. We can add "merge Bolivian Army Ending with Uncertain Doom" as a crowner option, though.

It's worth talking about Bolivian Army Cliffhanger here because it's so closely related to Bolivian Army Ending. Whatever we do to Bolivian Army Ending affects Bolivian Army Cliffhanger. Dealing with the two separately is a bad idea; we rework closely-related tropes in a single thread all the time.

edited 5th Jan '12 3:27:51 PM by NativeJovian

But Option #2 is to create the supertrope. If that fails, we cannot do option #3.

Edit: every other time I've seen two tropes being worked on, I've seen someone add the second trope to the Repair Shop.

edited 5th Jan '12 3:30:00 PM by crazysamaritan

We do need to create an option for lumping Bolivian Army Ending with Uncertain Doom, because that is one of the proposals, even if it's not the one I'd advocate. To me, expanding the trope so that it's no longer an ending trope is different from just voting to rename it. So "Rename Bolivian Army Ending but otherwise leave trope as is" should be a separate option from "Rename Bolivian Army Ending and expand trope to include non-ending examples."

Page action crowner here. Please make corrections or additions as necessary; I'm not sure if I got all the options currently on the table.

I think you've got them all.

Right now we have Bolivian Army Ending, which is for the very end of a work, which leaves the life of any number of characters in danger. It has misuse for when "any number of characters are in danger". We also have Bolivian Army Cliffhanger, which is specifically for the end of a season, that leaves any number of characters in danger of dying. Lastly, we have Our Hero Is Dead, which requires an In-Universe statement to the effect of the hero being dead or dying, but is resolved in the next episode or after the commercial break.

If we make a supertrope without merging either trope into Uncertain Doom, then the misuse Bolivian Army Ending has attracted goes there.

If we make the supertrope and cliffhanger and ending are merged, then Uncertain Doom will take most of the misuse but the end of any work will be Bolivian Army Ending, and the supertrope will take any examples that happen to non-hero characters.

Some of these suggestions aren't mutually exclusive, are they?