Ableism

Downplaying and overemphasizing a disability are both really rude, just FYI.

You're right, it is a bad thing. For you. You don't get to determine that for other people.

So needing help to go pee is a good thing for some people? I don't think we're communicating very well here...

...We seem to be arguing from fundamentally incompatible viewpoints. Saying "it doesn't have to be a bad thing" doesn't do anyone any good in my opinion. Handling it properly does good, but simply insisting it's not bad doesn't make the situation any better. I'm not talking about forcing my opinion on anyone else, or over-emphasizing the problems associated with any disability. I'm talking about being realistic and dealing with a problem honestly. I really don't think insisting a disability isn't a bad thing is honest or healthy, and as a person with a disability I think I'm entitled to have an opinion on the subject. I'm not trying to decide anything for anyone else, I'm just expressing that opinion. Yes, I think disabilities are inherently bad, but I also feel they don't have to ruin your life.

Out of curiosity, do you have a disability?

Either way, I don't want to argue. We might just have to agree to disagree.

You know, my disability has led to some positive things. It's taught me a lot, that's for sure. But the disability itself is inherently negative, unfair, and unpleasant. I still have a relatively happy life, and it's not because I think my disability is a good thing. I'm grateful for some of the ways it's affected my life, but not for the disability itself. I'm happy despite my limitations, which is important for everyone to be, disabled or not.

If it wasn't negative in someway we wouldn't call it a disability.

What would you call something that prevents a human from preforming at the level we consider average and capable? Super powers? A for Effort?

Again, it is not dehumanizing to say, that person physically, mentally, or emotionally cannot complete that task the same as another person without those conditions. It is a statement of fact.

Admitting this as fact and accepting it as a problem to be solved creates an atmosphere of medical assistance and empathy. If you are missing a leg we need to know that isn't good so you can get a prothestic. If you have autistim so bad you cannot speak or control basic bodily functions because your brain is moving too fast, that is a problem we need to solve with meds and various therapies.

Embracing the reality of a disability is the only way you can respectfully help someone.

Would you walk up to a child born with aids and say what they had wasn't bad? They didn't need to change who they are because they are just a different normal? No. Hell no.

A person with a disability has a condition that needs to be treated to the upmost of our abilities just like a cancer paitent. Maybe we can help them over come it to the point they are preforming on an average or above average skill. We can throw that disability in remission. But for more aggressive disabilities, we need to give the same aggressive care back to give them as much quality life as possible despite the hardship.

And, not treat it as if the help they need (but, not necessarily that which is given) is something they're asking for to mooch off everybody else, either. <_<

That's the attitude that grates the most. -_-

Things are hard enough without people telling you to your face that you're only asking for the help because it's there to be had. Skiver. <_<

Disability is normal in that a lot of people have one or two in varying degrees. But, it shouldn't be treated as nothing or described as "not necessarily bad" just because a lot of people have them, either. <_< It's "not necessarily bad" in the same way that it's "not necessarily good".

Sometimes I think the worst thing was when the idea of "worse" disabilities to have were raised. Yes: means and needs testing is a thing that occurs. But treating somebody with problems as if their problems are somehow "lessened" because they don't rack up enough points on a list of ticky boxes? Not nice...

edited 26th Sep '13 6:29:27 AM by Euodiachloris

Amen to that!

If I am teaching a class and I have one kid whizzing through everything, it is my duty and responsibility to that child to say, "Hey, this kid needs to be bumped a grade, put in Advanced Placement, etc." It would be an equal responsibility to recommend the child struggling a tutor, remedial class, held back, whatever their needs require.

It is a need. Not a "deserve". Society has the responsibility to their members and are obligated to provide the assistance required to satisfy the basic human needs of their citizens.

Absolutely. Yes, there are people who have more pain and more difficulty than others. But even so, they still need help. Yes, acknowledging that things could be worse can help a person carry on, but constantly being told "other people have it worse!" doesn't fix anything or remove the help that person needs.

Umm...hi there. I'm autistic, and I often like writing fan fics featuring autistic characters because I feel there need to be more autistic characters in media who aren't severely affected or rain men. I want to give autistic people like myself characters that they can relate to. People who just happen to have the disability but have their own lives, hobbies, strengths, weaknesses, and can do just as much as other people can. I've been successful in my endeavor a few times, but recently I've gotten a lot of backlash for one fan fic. People claim my portrayal of disabled characters and serious issues comes off as feeling like an after school special (never seen one so I don't know how to feel about this). I've tried addressing this a couple times, but nothing I did pleased the critics. They kept saying I use serious issues as drama props but don't explain how or why or offer suggestions on how I could fix it. All I've done is write the way I usually do, but ever since one incident which I won't go into, the Tumblr side of said fandom pretty much hates my guts and think all my works are problematic, offensive, and ableist despite my numerous attempts to fix them. I'm...not sure what to do.

I'm speaking as a diagnosed aspie:

It is immoral, naturally, to be rude to a person, even if they're disabled. And, it is also important to keep in mind that people need opportunity more than they need pity or protection.

However, I find the idea that disability is simply a part of human diversity to be...incorrect. Disabilities are diseases, and diseases are bad. To compare disabilities with say, women, homosexuals, or racial minorities as all being the same deal could have unfortunate implications.

As for the uncanny valley, I would say that yes, some people with disabilities do fall into the uncanny valley. It's ok to be creeped out a little by people who have certain disabilities. However, even people who do creep you out should be treated fairly. Being creeped out by someone doesn't justify being rude to them.

" the Tumblr side of said fandom pretty much hates my guts and think all my works are problematic, offensive, and ableist despite my numerous attempts to fix them. I'm...not sure what to do."

Want brutal honesty? Fuck them.

The Tumblr types who will get offended at this will never be pleased with what you do. They see "oppression" and "misandry" and "ableism" in EVERYTHING. You're not gonna win them back. They're as bad as trolls except they think they're doing it for a cause beyond "for the lols".

Just do your best, and when you get genuine criticism, use it to improve.

/end anti-tumblr rant

As for the actual points raised, There is something to be said for being too much like a kid's show episode. See Anvilicious for some points on that. That's not to say it's bad to do so, it's just a bit on the nose.

edited 31st Mar '15 7:28:40 PM by Joesolo

This.

Ignoring the Tumblr aspect you seem to be trying to cater to a group with no genuine interest in your work or any genuine interest in helping you improve it, instead they want to shout and tell you how you're wrong and a bad person, such people are not worth your time.

Misogyny. To them, Misandry is perfectly fine, acceptable and in many cases even required.

In general I'm with you, however when it comes to things that are purely mental/behavioral I wonder where you draw the line. After all, homosexuality was in the DSM until 1986, and Gender Identity Disorder is still there ^note Although I can see a legal reasoning for keeping GID in the books, for medical coverage of SRS. What counts as a normal part of human diversity, and what counts as a disease, here?

Well, I don't think that anything like, say, bipolar disorder, will ever be considered "good".

This doesn't say anything about the people who suffer from it, of course. It doesn't mean that BD equals to their entire character and it definitely doesn't mean that they don't deserve our sympathy and/or should be treated in a condescending/patronizing manner.

However, the condition itself is inherently bad. It makes those who have it suffer and it can make their family & closed ones suffer as well.

I think that Stephen Fry has actually commented that he feels his Bipolar is a part of who he is and comes with serious benefits. I know I've seen the same from people with ADD and ASD.

If you mean the abelism buzzword that's used to piss people off for simply walking up their stairs or something than, yeah, those tumblr type people are actual feces.

Just completely worthless.

You know, while some parts of tumblr (just as reddit and most other social networks) may not be the most enlightened people OTC is not a complaining area and even if you write "feces" instead of shit its still not exactly high standards.

edited 1st Apr '15 8:40:33 AM by 3of4

It wasn't a complaint.

it was a fact of life, and unfortunately that's just something you'll have to accept, mate.

I mean I can write "shit" if you want

edited 1st Apr '15 7:45:41 PM by Stratostygo3

Given how we talk about storytelling conventions on this site, let me ask you all something. How do you feel about ableist and anti-abeist themes in fiction? Some examples include Daredevil, A Beautiful Mind, Rain Man, Avatar and The King's Speech.

edited 4th Apr '15 2:01:30 PM by Aprilla

Can you elaborate a bit more? The above movies vary from mediocre to excellent. Their message is great but not always well-utilised/executed.

Well, I wanted to keep the topic broad to offer a variety of viewpoints. Murdock/Daredevil (especially the Ben Affleck movie version) receives heightened senses and special fighting abilities after being blinded as a child. Rain man is often cited as being the source of the "autistics have magical math powers" stereotype that many find off-putting while others enjoy it precisely for those reasons. Jake Sulley's desire to get his legs working again sparked a debate about bipedal locomotion wish fulfillment fantasies.

There's also the debate about how many movie and TV roles based on people with disabilities tend to be played by white males with no disabilities, so there's the intersectionism issue, too. Ray with Jamie Foxx is the only movie I can think of right now without a Google search that discusses blindness from the perspective of a black person.

Entire books and doctorate-level theses have been written on the X-Men mythology, so we could go there, too, although that one's going to be a can of worms.

edited 4th Apr '15 2:56:30 PM by Aprilla

Joey Lucas on The West Wing was a deaf character portrayed by a deaf actress. She was a PR specialist.

As an aside, shouldn't we maybe consider changing the title if this thread topic wanders?

"Disabilities and Society" or something in this vein?

I like Joey Lucas much in the way I like Peter Dinklage. Some of the roles they've played only briefly commented on their abnormalities, and in some cases, it was basically a non-issue. Both of them played characters in episodes of Nip/Tuck, and the show did a decent job of not turning them into token characters. Dinklage's character had a few "why am I so short moments" that kind of needed to be addressed in the context of that episode (Sean was being a dick to him despite often claiming to be quite progressive).

I recently saw X-Men: Days of Future Past, and I really enjoyed how Dinklage's character, Trask, was a bigot who thought he was operating on good intentions. No mention is made of the fact that he is a dwarf, yet he makes several speeches about why controlling, experimenting on and subjugating mutants is important for human survival. He's deadly serious about preserving humanity while denying the notion that he hates mutants, claiming that he appreciates how special the are. Warped sympathy perhaps?

Not to drift too far off the topic, but it also reminds me of Steven Jacobs from Rise of the Planet of the Apes. The movie is a clear allegory for the perils of institutional slavery and racism, yet Jacobs, a black character, is an unrepentantly greedy businessman who couldn't care less about the questionable ethics of the company's research. Bonus points for this thread is that the whole thing kicks off because Rodman is studying chimpanzees to find a cure for his father's Alzheimer's disease.

edited 4th Apr '15 3:25:03 PM by Aprilla

A university professor in Newfoundland refused to wear a transmitter to help a hearing impaired student, citing her Hindu religion. He dropped the course, but this story just makes my blood boil. I have a learning disability (not a hearing one FYI) and if one of my profs pulled a stunt like that I'd hound them with the relevant provincial Human Rights Act until they backed off or the courts compelled them to. Religious rights do not trump the rights of the disabled.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/ranee-panjabi-hearing-impaired-1.3231791

And she's been hit for this before, but as a professor with tenure I guess she just gets to ignore human rights.