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Don't we already have that one? (page action crowner): Obvious Judas get usage counts

 1 Spark 9, Tue, 6th Sep '11 3:47:21 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Obvious Judas was launched earlier this year, and it's about a good character who betrays his allies and becomes evil.

...sounds familiar? Because that's totally what the Face-Heel Turn trope is for. The only difference here is that for Obvious Judas, some troper expected the character to turn evil, but that's pretty subjective. Also, it's pretty easy to say in retrospect that you could have seen that one coming.

I think a merge would be a good idea here.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
Diagonalizing The Matrix
I think there's a difference between:

"Oh, no! Joe, the car salesman and our trusty ally, has betrayed us to the legions of evil!"

And:

"Oh, no! Cypher Iscariot, the redheaded lawyer with a goatee who introduced himself by saying he needs 30 bucks and did his best to undermine Captain Righteous all the while, has betrayed us to the legions of evil!"
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
Together Forever...
Well lets see, anime examples.

  • Aizen. Thats some serious hindsight going on.
  • Vegeta? Vegeta?! He changes sides more times than Kain did!
  • Sasuke? Eeeehhh
  • And a DEFIED from YuYu Hakusho.

Meh.

edited 6th Sep '11 5:18:08 AM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Diagonalizing The Matrix
Yeah, I see how in practice this is being used as The Untwist But More Specific.

This needs a tighter definition.
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
Cure Candy
Wtf.... so this is like Obvious Heel Face Turn Guy? wouldn't that be YMMV anyway?
Together Forever...
[up][up]

Yeah, this is definitely a thing, and I know I've even commented on it, but I can't think of examples because I've been up for...way too long. But the definition needs tightening, and at least in the anime section, the existing examples are misuse.

edited 6th Sep '11 5:24:01 AM by SakurazakiSetsuna

 7 Deboss, Tue, 6th Sep '11 6:36:22 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Obviously Evil?
 8 Known Unknown, Tue, 6th Sep '11 10:14:33 AM from Here. There. Everywhere.
Fresh For 2014
^ Seems like a subtrope of that, and more like "Obvious Traitor, " or more precisely, "this character will obviously betray the team in the future, even if they are all for it now."

Sort of a "totally trustworthy, honest..." sort of thing.

I can see how this can be a trope, but it doesn't need to be made to have a strong individual presence to differentiate it.
"My final prayer: O my body, always make me a man who questions!" — Frantz Fanon
This trope kind of rubs me the wrong way. At best, it's YMMV. At worst, it's redundant and unnecessary and should be nuked.

 10 Spark 9, Tue, 6th Sep '11 11:12:23 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] I'd agree to that.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 11 Antheia, Tue, 6th Sep '11 11:16:42 AM from Uppsala, Sweden
Yeah, this trope is going to need a complete rewrite to be objective. "Foreshadowing via Shout-Out of a character betraying the rest" could certainly be a trope, though.

Definitely subjective. Doesn't mean it has no place on the wiki, though.

Yeah, I'd say this trope is legit as-is, but happens to be subjective.
 14 Louie W, Mon, 9th Jan '12 1:01:43 PM from Babycowland
Loser
This part of the trope's description makes me wonder if cutting it might be the best solution.
You just know that he'll eventually betray the group in some way or another, even though the writer has shown no evidence of this at all.
From what I can tell, that leaves this trope as a purely subjective audience reaction. I think there may be grounds for a trope about the creator(s) of a work making it pretty obvious that a character is going to betray his/her group, but if so, I feel like this trope's description needs to be edited a bit.

edited 9th Jan '12 1:02:59 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
 15 Spark 9, Mon, 9th Jan '12 1:54:35 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] Yep, it's just speculation. Face-Heel Turn And I Totally Expected That Honestly.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
Diagonalizing The Matrix
How about Face-Heel Turn, but the "face" had plenty of Evil Tropes apply to them to begin with?
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
At the moment, this looks Too Subjective To Trope. Unless somebody has a brilliant idea on how to redefine it, I vote cut or possibly redirect.
 
someone
I vote cut. Based on the part Louie W bolded, I agree with the post directly above about it being too subjective.

edited 21st Mar '12 5:13:59 AM by ThatHuman

something
I don't think we should cut it. Either move it to YMMV or rewrite it to be objective.

The trope is compares itself to Narrowed It Down to the Guy I Recognize, which is YMMV. No reason this can't be made the same.

Either that or we can try to make it about ways of foreshadowing that character will be the traitor.

edited 21st Mar '12 6:05:27 AM by Catbert

Cut. Otherwise we'll need to get a time machine, go back in time and add Severus Snape as an example, then travel to a future where some of us will mock the others for getting it wrong.
 
 21 Meta Four, Thu, 5th Apr '12 7:59:20 AM from the house of bread and battle
AXTUCE MUN AXTE INCAL
Empty page action crowner hooked.
 22 ccoa, Mon, 7th May '12 8:03:16 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore

Bumping for votes.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 23 lu 127, Mon, 28th May '12 8:36:28 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Bump for more votes.
迷子の足音消えた 代わりに祈りの唄
 24 ccoa, Thu, 12th Jul '12 1:58:18 PM from the Sleeping Giant
With Mod Hat On
Calling crowner: tighten up the definition, make YMMV, and clean the examples. Do not rename.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 25 ccoa, Wed, 29th Aug '12 9:33:52 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Looking at the page history, all of [up]this is still left to be done.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Page Action: Obvious Judas
5th Apr '12 7:58:44 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Total posts: 32
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