Better solution?: Kuudere

Get back on the topic or watch this thread get locked.

Your choice.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I don't really see how Frozen Flower implies anything different from Ice Queen. Which isn't the complete trope.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

We need to add all the Japanese Live Action and Video Games to the page for one. Then the wicks for the rest of the junk which go to?.... There is not a name for this.

agreed.

edited 5th Sep '11 9:26:51 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

First, I want to know if this term really has traction outside the wiki. It shows up on wikipedia's glossary of Japanese terms, which confirms that it exists, but not much else. I've never seen this outside the wiki, but then I don't really leave the wiki much, so I'm not the best to judge that one.

It would be nice if we could use Frozen Flower, but unfortunately literal frozen flowers have all sorts of symbolism attached to them.

Raso, the decision isn't entirely final.

Anyway, I have made a crowner. If you think there are more possible actions we can take, feel free to add them.

I'm not particularly opposed to renaming Kuudere, though it is a pre-existing term, though not as common or as old as many other pre-existing terms. That said, I think we may actually be able find a reasonable English title for this one.

I actually rather like the Frozen Flower redirect, though it is a bit metaphor reliant and may lead to misuse for a girl who is simply emotionally cold as well as actually frozen flowers.

Here's a few of suggestions in no particular order of quality:

• Kind Heart In A Shell Of Ice
• Ice Queen With A Heart Of Gold
• Ice Hiding Kindness

Either there aren't really many if any pre-existing equivalent English terms, or my Google-fu is weak.

edited 5th Sep '11 9:29:26 PM by Balmung

None of those work at all.. They do not get across the Love Interest requirement and sound like Defrosting the Ice Queen.

The three Dere tropes are completely preexisting terms... This one was actually created on Lucky Star.

segregation is preferable to massively misleading rename. Let the others deal with misuse.

edited 5th Sep '11 9:35:35 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Anyway, supporting a rename. If it turns out we actually can find a good English title for this I see no reason not to use it. Kuudere isn't really as popular as either yandere or tsundere and the character type has been called other things as well, meaning a lack of consensus in the fanbase.

I know it's pre-existing, Raso. I'm asking how much is it used.

I only get 279,000 google hits for kuudere, compared to 25 million for tsundere.

Yeah, that's the thing. The words cooldere, tundra*

and probably more are also used, meaning while it's a preexisting term it's not the only one.

I'm actually not sure this is a distinct trope. Type 1 seems like it's already covered by The Spock and Emotionless Girl, Type 2 sounds like naught but a specific type of Defrosting Ice Queen, and Type 3, okay, well, that might have something to it, but I could use some extra convincing that this is, in fact, a distinct trope.

The only *dere trope I really think needs to remain is Tsundere. Its very, very well established and is well on its way to becoming a true loanword. Kuudere, Yandere, Yangire, are all "snowclones" (albeit not created by us) off of "Tsundere".

I think yandere is also valid.

And yeah, I'm really not too sure how the nicer versions of this trope are really distinct from Emotionless Girl. And sometimes the cold and aloof version really seems more like tsundere, such as with Komachi Tsugumi.

Yandere is well-used outside of the wiki, and it already beat a rename at least once. Yangire is getting split because the trope had no idea what it was, and that name will not be attached to either of them.

Er, Isn't this just Ice Queen, perhaps Defrosting Ice Queen, only with Gratuitous Japanese? Why not merge it into Defrosting Ice Queen and be done with it?

edited 5th Sep '11 10:00:42 PM by KiTA

Because it appears to overlap with two other tropes at the same time, of course!

I'm putting that option on the crowner.

edited 5th Sep '11 10:01:40 PM by Arha

The Defrosting Ice Queen stays defrosted. Kuudere switches between the two.

It depends on the subtype. You described type 3, but type 2 does stay defrosted.

Switching between the two is a massive difference than gradual defrosting.

Final Fantasy X

Lulu and Wakka she is Kuudere to Wakka constantly switching back and forth cold all business with him but shows her Dere side at the blitzball game, farplane and the Yojimbo cave. (X-2 is a different story they are married and she is more derekuu.)

Lulu and Tidus though she steadily defrosts over the course of the game as she comes to understand the guy and even like him. (she even shows signs of shipping Tidus and Yuna depending on what choices you make)

edited 5th Sep '11 10:16:14 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Now we're running into similar issues to Yangire.

Icy And Loving Switcher

edited 5th Sep '11 10:16:31 PM by Falco

"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.

It's the switch-back-and-forth aspect that makes these tropes tricky, isn't it?

I was going to suggest some variation on the phrase "Cold hands, warm heart," with something else substituted for "hands" (Something like Cold Facade Warm Heart, for instance). But that doesn't really get across the switching aspect at all, unfortunately.

Doesnt get across the Love Interest requirement as well or at best single target.

Also

"Merge appropriate examples into overlapping tropes such as Tsundere or Emotionless Girl. "

WTF Emotionless Girl at best it would be a kinda related trope same with Tsundere.

edited 5th Sep '11 10:37:30 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Being a love interest is no more a requirement for Kuudere than it is for Tsundere. For example, Midori or whatever her name is in Lucky Star.

It's always relationship based, the amount text/subtext can vary.

edited 5th Sep '11 10:43:44 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Not all relationships are romantic.