That strange Iconography of Christmas

Well, christmas is coming... (faster than you think, folks!)... and the thread about "white christianity" got me thinking...

The scenery that is depicted in christmas songs and tales is sincerely twisted. I mean, what tradition made of it, as christmas was transferred from its middle-eastern setting into ice-cold central europe, and later to america.

There's snow falling. It's cold. Mary and Joseph find shelter in a manger, where ox and ass lend their body warmth to Jesus. But at the very same time, shepherds have their sheep out in the fields as if it's a jolly summer's night. Those shepherds were informed by angels about the newborn messiah, and they all worshipped him (while 30 years later, basically all of judaism universally rejected him - it seems it was much easier to worship a newborn baby than a grown-up man who smashes around the merchandise in the temple). At the same time, those three kings or sages were guided by a star - I wonder why god chose to send a star to one group, but angels to another.

Also, I always wondered why everybody turned them down. The usual version is "because they were poor", and because the hotels were full because of the census. Okay, that census thing was b.s., but even if we grant that census for the sake of the argument - weren't basically all jews back then rather poor, what with them being under oppression by rome and all that? And didn't they all have family ties all around the country? I mean, this was not the modern 3-4 person family, was it? Plus, it's a rather small country to start.

I'm guessing there's lots of other oddities going on here. And even though I'm an avid and joyful basher of christianity, this is actually not about it - this is about the weirdness that occurs as tales get told and retold, moved from one setting to another, and rewritten so many times, that they gather ever more inconsistencies, just like a series suffering from Chris Carter Effect.

I have heard that the whole 'Jesus laid in a manger' thing is symbolic. He is bread for the world, even the ox and the ass know where their feed is, all that jazz.

>Bible

>Realism

Pick one.

Aside from the snow, all of that accumulated in maybe eight decades tops. In a society where most people can't read and write, the mutations just run freaking wild, to the point that modern pre-literate cultures just overhaul their entire syntactical structure in two generations.

Question from someone with no agricultural background: if shepherds don't take their sheep out to graze in winter, how do the animals not starve?

Stored food, in the animal, or in the barn.

You can find a lot of inconsistencies in the Bible itself if you know where to look.

You're forgetting the strangest part: we've got the Holy Family in the manger, we've got sheep out in the fields, it's winter, and there are Victorian people traipsing through the snow.

Okay, vijeno, what exactly are you asking about in the first place? You seem to be mentioning things all over the place but I can't put a finger on what your central concerns are. Your first post feels more like rambling than anything else. So, yeah, if you could rephrase that to some extent, I'd be glad to help.

edited 4th Sep '11 9:48:30 AM by Ramus

At least in Europe and North America, sheep were only stabled and not in the pastures during the bitterest of cold or storms. Whether it was done differently in the Middle East I can't address. But stabling and feeding fodder is considerably more expensive that allowing them to graze with a couple of shepherds out to watch.

Simple answer: Jesus wasn't born in winter. He was probably born in the fall. We celebrate his birthday in the winter because the pagans celebrated a major holiday (the "Birth of the sun") in December (a sort of winter solstice), and when Constantine came in with Christianity, he figured it would be easier to change the holiday than create an entirely new one.

The census thing was much more of a "Pay taxes" thing then anything else, but it still happened. And because it did, there would have been very little room in the town. The recently made movie gives one interpretation: perhaps Mary was in childbirth, and they needed somewhere to stay very quickly, and could not afford to search every inn in town.

And if I recall correctly, it never snows in the Levant at sea level. If so, it could very well have been December with sheep in the fields.

Presumably the Star would have appeared months (or years) before the actual birth to give the wise men time to get to Bethlehem from wherever it is they're coming from. Those guys would recognise the significance in a new star appearing in the sky while a shepherd wouldn't give two hoots about another star that's been hovering among thousands for months, so they would need something less subtle (like an angel outright telling them what to do).

edited 4th Sep '11 10:52:43 AM by TheBatPencil

Exactly - the Bible never actually says it snowed at Christmas(and it wouldn't ordinarily). Also, it's entirely possible the Romans attempted to respect Jewish tribal and ancestral ties to the land in conducting their census, hence the going to Bethlehem.

Another possibility is that while Joseph spent a rather long time in Nazareth, he was providing migrant labor (kinda like the situation of South Asians in Dubai), and that his official address would be Bethlehem. A similar requirement existed in neighboring Egypt, after all.

edited 4th Sep '11 11:22:59 AM by Cojuanco

Note that the Bible goes on to say that the Star of Bethlehem stopped over the house where Jesus & family were staying. Which means they were there for long enough to get out of the stable and find a better place to stay. Which is why most Christian scholars think that the wise men didn't show up until a year or two later (remember that Herod subsequently ordered the killing of all babies under two).

@Ramus: No point, specifically. I imagine it more like someone starting a conversation at a bar, "isn't it strange how things go?", somewhat like that. I'm simply amused and fascinated by how tradition works, and thought that others might enjoy the same topic.

I'd like to point out that it's supposedly pretty cold in a desert at night. Not to mention that sleeping outside in those days was a huge crapshoot; the manger was pretty much better than nothing. So yeah, going somewhere for warmth is not such a strange thing.

As I already said, we don't know when Jesus was born. Also, the Three Wise Guys came most likely a couple years after he was born.

^^ What it looked like in Bethlehem 2000 years ago is irrelevant. What makes it feel like Christmas or not is what you grew up with Christmas looking like.

I think the standard Christian response to this is "who the fuck cares, I want to buy shit for my family and friends".

Well, Christmas, at least in the US, has been so commercialized as to completely strip the religious meaning for many people. Which is nice, because than everyone has a reason to give gifts and be nice(er) to people (though it would be better if we just always did that...), but, at the same time, I'm sure the (aware and more devout) Christians aren't entirely happy about it.

I don't know what you'd do about it, though, since the whole separation of church and state (from both the First Amendment and the Bible) thing would make it impossible to kill the commercialization via legal means, so...

And that's why Christmas to me means tinsel decorations on the lampposts in shopping center parking lots.

edited 4th Sep '11 10:29:14 PM by Karalora

And I grew up in Northern Illinois so — snow. No snow means it doesn't feel like Christmas. Something was always wrong about Christmas all the years I lived in Alabama. It shouldn't rain on Christmas.

I came across this Y/A post a couple Christmases ago. I still have it bookmarked after all this time...

The commercialisation of Christmas annoys me sometimes, when I'm in one of my grumpier moods. It just seems like the commercialism and greed that's present for the rest of the year becomes totally impossible to ignore.