On what basis are gay guys assumed to be feminine?

I know, it's a blatant snowclone, but it had to be said.

Seriously, significantly more than half of the LGBT people I know of (IRL, internet communities, celebrities, myself...) are not significantly more gender-nonconformist than your average joe. I think I've personally met more gender-nonconformist straight people than I have gender-nonconformist LGB people.

And yet, when people meet gay men these days, they come in with expectations of feminine traits. Why?

Probably comes down to old-school pseudo-psychology about how men are masculine, women are feminine and how masculine and feminine attract. If you're a gay guy, it must be because your the wrong way around ego feminine.

Or some kind of nonsense along those lines.

Actually, I'd say the stereotype that feminine guys are gay is more common than that of gay guys being feminine. At least the latter has popular subversions in forms like Straight Gay and Manly Gay.

As for the basis, I think there's research indicating that that gay guys' brains are more like female brains than straight guys' brains are, but I don't remember the specifics.

Because honestly, a good deal of guys that are feminine tend to be gay, which is the beginning of a stereotype. Over time that warps into "All gay guys are feminine, and all feminine guys are gay."

Which is obviously not true, but by this point it's pretty much been ingrained into society.

Because its obvious that only a feminine male would refuse to touch a woman

edited 16th Aug '11 10:09:10 AM by whaleofyournightmare

For the west, Oscar Wilde

That's probably mostly because you've met way more straight people than LGB people. If 2% of straights are gender-nonconformists, and 100% of gays are, but only 1% of people are straight, then you could still say that you met twice as many straight nonconformists than gay ones.

It would be interested to see if anybody has some actual stats on this (I'd expect something more like 50% of gays and 5% of straights, wildly varying depending of your definitions and of the culture you're examining).

Logically, this never made any sense. A gay wants to attract another guy who is gay. It is safe to assume the other gay guy will also be looking for a guy himself. With that in mind, being feminine would have the complete opposite of the desired effect.

A gay guy wants to be masculine so other gays who are also looking for guys can pick him out of the crowd.

As for the ones who DO act feminine in some ways*

• they're not gay, they just have girlfriends who like clean and sophisticated looking boyfriends...

• ponytails ****ing rocks...if the guy knows what he's doing.

• they're gays who act this way on purpose to get on the nerves of homophobes. In other words...they're trolling homophobes.

edited 16th Aug '11 1:31:34 PM by Signed

But he was a dandy, meaning he was less flamboyant than the average joe of his day.

But you're ignoring

this bit.

edited 16th Aug '11 2:03:28 PM by Haldo

I know, but for decades after his exile he was constantly loathed and mocked, and eventually society began changing the concept of manliness while his image stayed the same. Most early 20th century camp gays in media owe much to Oscar Wilde's image.

Because once you've gotten out from the gender police in one way, you don't feel the need to gender police in other ways?

Because the most effective way of gender policing is "what are you, GAY" and that loses its effectiveness if you actually are gay?

To be fair, most gay men I've met are feminine enough to where I can immediately tell.

My roomate isn't terribly effeminate, and he's gay, but almost all of his gay friends and his current boyfriend all had traits that made them stand out as gay.

Bleh... I operate on a "girly = probably gay, 'normal' = probably straight, and straight until proven gay" basis.

I've got one friend who is Camp Straight—he's awesome, too—but that is proof enough to me that effeminate doesn't = gay, it = probably gay. It really doesn't matter either way to me, unless we get into personal space issues...

I look for Personal Space Invader more than I do effeminate. It's actually a better thing to attune the gaydar to, I've found.

edited 16th Aug '11 4:47:32 PM by USAF713

Well when I tell people I am gay for the first time I often get "you must be lying" or "you're joking right?" One guy at school I know actually flat out said that he never knew because "I don't act or talk like gay people do." I am a tad eccentric, but not really 'camp' or 'feminine' in anyway, or at least not noticeably more than anyone else really. I guess the term used is 'straight acting' though I detest that label as I don't see myself as acting straight.

Why the assumption exists? Easier way to identify people of a different group by making huge sweeping generalisations much the way we do to identify those of a different culture or nationality. The fact that such stereotypes are still pretty prominent in media and as that is the greatest exposure some people get to gay people they just take that as the rule. This I feel I have experienced at school where people have not had much exposure to gay people so are not aware that we are a diverse lot hence why I got the reactions I do when I tell some people. They just aren't very well aware of anything outside their conceptual scheme. This is what I guess they may have something to do with it but just speculation on my part.

Maybe that is where I'm going wrong in my search for a boyfriend then

edited 16th Aug '11 4:57:54 PM by PiccoloNo92

Oh, 'nother thing:

Since gay guys need to be able to find each other to date, they have to have some way to mark themselves so other gay guys can identify them. For some reason the standard marker is femininity.

I would predict that if you went into a situation where MOST people are gay, you wouldn't find many camp gays.

I said it before and I'll say it again....logically, that makes NO SENSE.

Gay guys would be looking for other gay guys to hit on. If you want to find another guy who is looking for a guy, why would you feminize yourself?

Is anything about humanity logical?

Straight men like attractive women...that's a pretty logical process.

@people who say all/most of the gay guys they know are feminine: Sure, maybe all the gay guys that you know of are feminine, but it's entirely possible that there are plenty of gay guys around you that you didn't notice because they're not feminine.

Surprisingly to me I still need to explain this even to people who I consider close friends.

edited 16th Aug '11 5:12:07 PM by PiccoloNo92

Sexuality isn't limited to a masculine-feminine dichotomy. There is an unlimited number of traits that can be considered appealing or unappealing. Some gay men are attracted to feminine men, or androgynous men, or transmen, and they still identify as gay. They've been gay they're entire lives, and they aren't confused. It doesn't have to be complicated.

You're confusing logic with heteronormativity. Heteronormative conformity is not a natural instinct.

edited 16th Aug '11 5:22:40 PM by Grain

No, heteronormativity is when people assume that gay couples are composed of a feminine gay man and a masculine gay man. No that's just silly.

I've always heard the term 'heteronormativity' as the belief that heterosexuality is considered to be the norm and that people who don't conform to that are somehow 'deformed' or otherwise have some sort of 'disorder'. If I'm wrong on the usage, please do correct me.

I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

Although technically heterosexuality is the standard... biologically speaking. We'd die out, otherwise. Not that it's an excuse to persecute, however...

That's heterosexism. The words sound similar.

Heteronormativity is the idea that men and women have certain default characteristics that everyone will naturally follow. The idea that men are strong, stoic, providers while women are nurturing, emotional supporters is heteronormative. Heteronormativity establishes the zeitgeist of gender roles that we have now. (Or, maybe I should say heteronormativity is the zeitgeist.)

Signed's idea that being attracted to men means being attracted to "masculinity" (whatever that's supposed to mean) is heteronormative.

edited 16th Aug '11 6:12:04 PM by Grain