What makes you think you've beaten Sturgeon's Law?

Medium...not quite.

Universe...I'm reasonably sure I'm taking Magical Record Lyrical Nanoha Force to the cleaners, but as that series continues it's becoming clear that is...not a great achievement. Maybe Vi Vi D, but I don't know it that well.

I think I've beaten Sturgeon's Law because I've spent years honing my craft, practicing what I knew I was bad at until I was good at it and getting better at what I was already good at. I've made sure to read a good number of "classics" and regular books and given enough thought to how they were put together (dissecting them and looking at the writer's style and how the style complements the content). Also, beta readers and other people who know what they are talking about have told me that I'm a decent writer.

I'm not Shakespeare, but I'm not just barely mediocre.

Well, with only a handful of short stories to my name, I don't think I really count as a "writer" (of fiction, that is; I've written plenty of essays). But for me, it's mostly praise from friends. When everyone who reads a certain thing I've wrote, says they're impressed with it, I figure I must be doing something right.

I breathe Sturgeon's, unfortunately. It's a constant fight, and I very much doubt I'm winning.

Except in poetry, which I never inflict on other people. (Personal promise to self: never show poetry until somebody runs into it on my computer after I'm dead.)

^ It can't be as bad as Vogon Poetry.

I'm not sure if I have, to be honest. I've watched/read works that I enjoyed until someone else pointed out the flaws. I don't have anyone that'll point out my flaws, so I'm constantly thinking about if what I'm writing is actually passable, or if it'll one day end up on the So Bad Its Horrible page.

Open heart surgery with imperfect anesthesia is preferable to that. Or so I've heard. Nah: I'm not that bad, thank God.

@OP: I don't know. In the words of the Zen Master...."We'll see."

'When you hear the singing, you will know it is time.'

Well, I think one thing I have confidence in is the fact that, at least in current plan, I dream big. Large casts, detailed world with plausible history, geography, ecology. Also, absurdly intense and large-scale battles. I just have no sense of limitation.

That's for now, at least.

edited 28th Jan '12 4:53:12 AM by dRoy

Um, okay, but what matters is how those big dreams look paper. Readers can't see your thinking; all of the focus is on your writing.

I don't much care. For me, writing is a hobby. When I just want to have fun, I keep it to myself and have fun. When I want critiques so I can improve it, I show it to someone. However, I don't really care how high it is on the scale in the grand scheme of things. I have too many other things to worry about that are honestly more important to my future than that, and so I'm not going to waste brain space fussing over it.

I seriously doubt that I've beaten Sturgeon's Law yet. I think I have some fairly original plot ideas and characters that I want to write, but I have very little experience actually writing fiction, and my writing can feel all kinds of stilted and awkward.

@Betsy - Working on them.

If someone whose judgment I have no reason to mistrust picks up and reads- of their own honest volition, and not out of any sense of obligation - more than five pages of something I've written; and later honestly confesses enjoying the read; then I start to think it may be possible I've written something of relative worth. Everything else is make-believe.

From my experience, your writing will often appear unjustifiably awesome, complex and deep to you (at least at the time of writing), and readers are your reality check. Half of what I've learned about good writing was from watching people respond to what I thought was good writing.

Amen. Although I should add that it's also a matter of who you're comparing yourself to - I think that I can fairly objectively say that if we're talking in terms of literally everything ever written, I've beaten Sturgeon's Law. But by the standards of published authors in my genre? Not so much.

I haven't. That's why I only publish 10% of my work.

edited 31st Jan '12 7:47:18 AM by Wheezy

Sturgeon's Law is a subjective principal. What's shit to one person might be art of that precious %10 to someone else.

That said, proper grammar and spelling usually do help improve a fic's odds.

I wouldn't claim that anything I've attempted to write would qualify as "something that's beaten Sturgeon's Law". I don't believe I'm arrogant enough for that. I mean, there's taking pride in what you've achieved, and then there's deciding it's objectively part of the best ten percent of everything in its genre, much less ten percent of everything that's ever been written.

As for spelling, grammar and so forth, those make a story readable, but they hardly qualify it as having "beaten Sturgeon's Law". Any proof-reader or editor worth their salt should be able to correct SPG errors.

If you aspire to have your writing considered alongside proven works, you should be past the point of thinking that spelling well is worth mentioning.

edited 31st Jan '12 11:37:39 AM by TheGloomer

When you consider the absurd quantity of bad fanfiction and novels out there, being in the top 10% is really not such a big deal as you're making. I believe an average troper can beat the Sturgeon's Law without too much trouble.

I'd be inclined to disagree with the assertion that the average troper could beat Sturgeon's Law, but that's neither here nor there.

Hmmm - part of me always tries to keep hubris in mind: the moment you think you've beaten Sturgeon's - it's probably sneaking up behind you with a cosh.

If you're considering published works, then yes, spelling/grammar is not a recommendation but a basic requirement, and the average troper can't necessarily hit top 10% (though I would argue that most are at least top 50%). If you're considering fanfiction...yes, I can just about guarantee that the average troper is in the top 10% if not 1%, and "can actually spell" is a qualification. Sad, but true.

I'd note that original fiction on the internet should be pretty much held to the same standard as fanfiction.

One of the problems with using 'correct spelling and grammar' as a means of claiming your work is good is that, well, it doesn't mean your work is good. I don't think anyone can say a sentence is inherently well written just because it's grammatically correct. One of the things I see a lot when people are discussing their writing skills is that they focus on the skeletal structure of what makes a good story. The spelling, the world-building, the character trains, the nuts and bolts of the plot. All of those things are important of course, and yes they do put you above a lot of the terrible fanfiction out there, but too often people get stuck at that level with a million other mediocre writers and then wonder why they don't get published. For the most part, their stories simply aren't well written enough. Style, perspective, voice, narrative, description, flow; it's the telling of the story that trumps the story itself every single time. Of course, style is subjective, but only to a certain point.

So someone can have the greatest spelling in the world, they can have the most tightly plotted story they can think of, but if they just tell that story using sentences like All around him the white and pink petals of the cherry trees fluttered about in the air as he sat on the bench beneath him. Spring had come to Elysium City just in time for cherry blossoms to bloom and fall as they did every year or Today a grey sky pervaded the blizzard of petals amongst the cherry grove here in Elysium City Park and a light rain pattered about the trees pelting each remaining petal with a light tap or Swordmaster Khornan said before growing curious of the expression on Anzan’s face or “I fear the same will happen too father.” Anzan replied in understanding then all those good things about their story don't matter, because they aren't well written enough that people will pay to publish or read them.

Of course, there's no easy way to magically increase the quality of your writing. It's easier to just worldbuild and detail new outfits for characters, which is why I believe a lot of aspiring writers spend so much time working on those things. I don't think I've seen one post in this topic where people have talked about how they edit or rewrite their work, for example. I think that's incredibly crucial for bettering oneself. As the old saying goes, writing is rewriting, and that doesn't just mean fixing a sentence or a word here and there. It means fixing problems in the plot, it means cutting out entire paragraphs and pages that don't fit, it means changing the ending, it means deleting or changing entire characters. It'll help any writer immeasurably. The more you write (and read), the better you'll naturally get, no matter how slow the process may be.

edited 1st Feb '12 10:22:49 AM by JacksonPollock