grassroots progressivism

Well, sure, it might not be difficult for every soldier, but I imagine that it isn't easy to communicate with all the guys in the thick of it in Afghanistan and Iraq. Though that's starting to wind down now. Perhaps I just have a worse perception of the communications line than it actually is in reality?

I am now known as Flyboy.

@USAF 713: Fuck making it mandatory; take away the "right" and make them earn it.

Starship Troopers-style, eh? Nice on paper, morally questionable in practice. I respect the thought process behind it, though. If not military service, what would be the benchmark for "earning it?" What about people who can't serve? Will this be a backdoor to precluding gays and women from voting? If the military and more right-leaning people can't stomach the fact that people who aren't WAS Ps are going to join the military, that won't work...

I am now known as Flyboy.

There are ways to serve your country that don't involve you carrying a rifle and humping a pack up the Hindu Kush; building a bride, volunteering at a hospital, caring for the elderly; all benefit society in their own unique way.

FWI, if the military was comprised entirely of WASP's we'd be screwed; not many speak Arabic. Gays, women, ect can serve, as long as they realize why they're there; sex, race, religion aren't important, what matters is you being willing to sacrifice to earn something. When it comes down to it, if you're willing to serve they'll find something for you to do.

edited 2nd Aug '11 6:58:18 AM by Kino

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the military fairly minority-heavy already, since it's a way for poorer people to earn college scholarship money, gain skills and a well-paying job, etc? As for gay men and any women, though, yeah, to be representative would almost certainly mean an increase in representation.

Anyway, I wouldn't count out the 'net as a place to 'muster the troops' for liberals... it worked pretty well in '08, and the influence of the 'net as a dissemination point for media, networking and information has only gotten stronger.

edited 2nd Aug '11 6:59:10 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog

Oh, absolutely. I'm disgusted by anyone who says that people who want to serve and are able should be precluded, or forced to hide whatever it is that they are to do it. I say, set it up for both sexes, and enforce the fraternization regulations. It isn't that difficult; the military is about rules. If a problem arises, you create a rule and you enforce it. People should be allowed to serve if they like, period.

As for using the internet to get people to do things, sure, but I think half the problem is that the Democrats are a much more fractured base compared to the two stereotypical kinds of Republicans: the "Religious Right" or the Corrupt Corporate Executive-type libertarian Right-Wing Militia Fanatic, and the other half is that a lot of the Democrat voting base is poor and therefore doesn't vote as much. Which is why I at least think that voting should be a holiday: so that "I have to go to work!" is no longer an excuse not to vote.

I am now known as Flyboy.

It's a good system, but we all know it's not going to be implemented; people would bitch about "their rights" being taken away. As for DADT; best start another threat for that.

I probably shouldn't respond to you so much, because you seem to like trolling, but with Wisconsin going on right now, this kind of sentiment really hits too close to home.

Voting is a right full stop.

Having a say in your government is a motherfucking basic right of all goddamn human beings regardless of how worthy or wretched they may be, and trying to take it away from them because you don't like how they would vote or treat it as a special privilege to be earned is motherfucking EVIL.

As for the rest of it, yes, making voting more convenient would be a nice step in the right direction, and definitely necessary before any attempts at following Australia. But we're not even going to get that much if the left doesn't man up and start attacking the GOP for blocking left-leaning voters from having their say right now.

(Edited to make it clearer who I was responding to, and will refrain from ranting further on the issue to avoid O Tness.)

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:14:43 AM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.

Voting rights, or the lack thereof, are not the topic. Take it elsewhere please, guys.

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Edit: ~ignore~

Yeah, that too. Damn did we derail. Well, how about this: The Girl With The Pointy Ears has an excellent point, in that the internet generally leans left, so why doesn't the internet culture coalesce into some kind of counterpoint to the Tea Party? And no, Anonymous doesn't count...

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:16:31 AM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Yet there was a time in US history where voter turnout (the 1836 election comes to mind) was 80 percent or higher. Going by Wikipedia estimates, turnout in 1836 was only 57.8%. You're probably thinking of 1840.

Anyway, culutural attitudes were very different back then, so it's not really comparable.

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:16:08 AM by storyyeller

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(Just to be clear, USAF, I wasn't attacking you.)

With respect to turning internet-users into a left TP equivalent, I think the Coffee Party is what you want. The following quote from them is amusingly relevant to both the direct discussion and the voting tangent:

"In the current climate, too many Americans are afraid to participate, and find the process itself too alienating, because it is dominated by people with extreme opinions and extreme tactics. It's hard to speak up when others in the room are screaming. So in the end, we may want some of the same things, but we [are] hoping our journey getting there will be very different."

Problems - It's not an official group with official fund-raising powers as of yet, and its initial description on Wikipedia includes that stereotypical Democrat 'diversity' tidbit that makes me wonder if they'll really be able to create a cohesive, unifying identity or not. It's also centrist rather than leftist; there are Republicans in the group as well as Democrats, which I know won't prove to be the alternative that many are looking for who're dissatisfied with the current Democratic party. Finally, there appears to be some further fracturing between Coffee members who just want civil discourse and Coffee members who want to repay blood with blood.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.

@Karkadinn: Really now? Exactly how am I trolling? When did I say anything about taking away an individuals right to vote because i don't like how they would vote?

It don't matter, Kino. Start a new thread. Shit just got real, dude, because the mod chicken was brought out.

Yeah, Bobby G pointed that out. I forgot that Kino had been responding to me. I was mostly just really surprised. Such is where the cheeky reaction came from.

So the Vocal Minority is scaring them off, and the very group itself has split down the middle between the fools who would fight fire with fire and the saner members who can't be bothered to be as loud as the fools. How sad.

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:32:00 AM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

@ derail: Cast a vote here, for democracy!

Buk buk buk buGARK!

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@Karkadinn re: Coffee : Well, maybe...

Honestly, I don't see much of a problem with diversity and disaffected Republicans participating if they want to. If the problem is that our platform isn't unified and there's no structure, well, I'd see this hopefully as a forum for discussion on that and consensus building, sharing ideas about local information and activism campaigns, and building ties so there's more of a community and people feel more unified. But maybe I'm too much of an idealist Liberal :p

edited 2nd Aug '11 7:36:17 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog

The only demographic not normally included in the military is rich people. I'm actually not sure on the actual breakdown by ethnicity, but I think that yes, it's slightly higher percentages of blacks and hispanics. But beyond a general opinion of "Stop screwing us over!" and a general Republican-slant, there's very little that military personnel agree on.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I think its just that most young people honestly dont care about politics, despite all their anger.

I went on CNN before the debt ceiling vote and Casey Anthony going in for probation had twice as much hits as the top debt ceiling story....

Its that, and that a lot of younguns dont really think their vote matters because they have a tendency to believe the "bad guys" whether thats democrat or republican, are overwhelmingly in control of the system.

Very true.

I hear "Whats the point" so much. Even from myself.

Exactly. And when enough people say it, it becomes a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy: nobody wants to try and start a counterweight group to the Tea Party because they think it's pointless, and as a result the Tea Party gains power and it really becomes even more pointless.

There's three basic things the Tea Party has that the leftist political base doesn't: Money, money, money.

Because the internet has never collectively accomplished anything of note.

Eric,

So what can be done to combat the effects of money?

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French Revolution style bloodbaths.

I know that sounds melodramatic, but over the long term, what, besides violence derived from unrest, has ever totally uprooted thoroughly-seated financial power?

I want to believe that democracy is better than that, but if the people with the money can make sure that you can't even vote... well....

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.

It's not impossible. The robber barons of the late 19th century lost influence peacefully. We've been through much worse before.

edited 2nd Aug '11 3:14:18 PM by storyyeller

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