Five Things The US Got Right (And later, the Anti-US bashing thread.)

DARPA is headed by Lex Luthor and I dare you to prove otherwise.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

I know I like the US as a superpower far FAR more than I'd prefer a lot of other countries (I'm looking at you China) but the problem, from my perspective, is that the majority of American's are simply glad to be a superpower and think about the rest of the world as much as I do about toe fungus. That and the fact that for a nation with so much to offer itself and the rest of the globe NOTHING seems to be changing its government from the somewhat antiquated system it uses now.

Yes, DARPA totally didn't work on the internet, GPS, or robotic limbs.

Fight smart, not fair.

If it weren't for Lend-Lease equipment and supplies (food, fuel, ammunition, trucks to move said fuel, food and ammunition especially, aircraft, light tanks, etc.) the Soviets would have gotten their asses kicked at Stalingrad and Moscow.

Remember in war, all the infantry in the world mean nothing if they don't have rifles and bullets. All the tanks in the world mean nothing if they don't have fuel to move. American logistics is the reason why the Soviets held on in the early days of the war.

Greg (emphasis mine):

Deboss (again, emphasis mine):

No one said the US didn't work on these inventions. No one even suggested that it wasn't the biggest contributor. But they didn't invent or develop these things alone because they are the products of collective effort.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Nope. Without Lend-Lease, the Soviets suffer even more badly, but they don't lose the war, and Lend-Lease was a bigger factor in the second half of the war than the first. Germany was physically incapable of pushing on Moscow and consolidating their positions that far in 1941, and there's no way in hell they can push as far as the Urals. Lend-Lease didn't kick in in a big way until 1943 and after, as the Soviets no longer needed to worry about construction of trucks and locomotives (easily the most valuable portion of Lend-Lease, as about 70% of Soviet lorries were American-made) and could mass-produce weapons in huge quantities. Without it, they can't launch major offensives but they can hang on. Yes, the Soviets suffer even huger losses in personnel and material, but no, they don't lose the war. It's less of a question of Soviet resources than it is of German ones, because Germany's fuel issues were critical even at its most successful - too much land to cover with too little resources to do it.

edited 30th Jul '11 7:45:08 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

No-one's yet mentioned being the first large-scale functioning democracy in history. That's arguably the most important contribution the US ever made to anything. I don't know whether we'd all be speaking German but for the American involvement in World War Two, but if the War of Independence hadn't come off we might still be living in aristocratic oligarchies.

Of course, they did only win by cheating.

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

Can I get any love for the Panama Canal?

Apparently not, since the US haters will bring up Operation: Just Cause.

I'm of the belief that when the Allied troops met the Soviets lines they should have kept going.

And the Soviets would have probably lost if Germany didn't need to go into Greece, and if they went directyly to Moscow and Leningrad instead of Hitler changing the plan.

But the occupation would be brutal, and Germany still would have lost. Then, no Communism in Europe.

edited 30th Jul '11 8:57:21 AM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

That happened over 80 years after the canal was built; what's one got to do with the other?

edited 30th Jul '11 8:57:14 AM by RavenWilder

^ It's not like people haven't previously used vague "connections" used for the sake of a cheap jab, particularly where the US is involved.

edited 30th Jul '11 9:07:50 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump

True. I've heard there are still some people in Egypt who are pissed at Italy over the Library of Alexandria being destroyed 2000 years ago.

On-topic, though, you gotta admit that ships having a direct route between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans is a pretty big contribution to global trade.

edited 30th Jul '11 9:10:06 AM by RavenWilder

I'm gonna say that Truman IIRC stopped Churchill doing Operation:Unthinkable. Thats got to be worth something.

Dutch Lesbian

Eww...

Yeah, the college that calls troops missing limbs who study there fascists who deserve what they got is obviously a shining fucking beacon of American tolerance.

Berkeley sucks major ass.

edited 30th Jul '11 10:25:28 AM by Barkey

Barkey hates Berkeley! Someone should turn that into a song.

tout est sacré pour un sacreur (Avatar by Rappu!)

Well, the lend-lease program certainly helped the USSR fight against Germany but I doubt that the instant war broke out in 1941 that it could have possibly assisted. War materials don't magically teleport into the Soviet Union, it took months to get there.

In total, the numbers appear to be that the USA did $171 billion (2008 dollars) of lend-lease to USSR and Canada did $71 billion of lend-lease to USSR/Britain (numbers don't seem to be broken up, but if we assume the split of 3:1, same as the split USA did, Britain to USSR then it's probably around 17 billion to USSR).

Now here's the interesting part, let's say we never assisted them like that. Then you claim, USA saved Europe from Communism, but if they didn't have the influx of 171 billion worth of war material from USA, would they have been able to penetrate that deep? They'd probably have run out of steam long before and settled with just Eastern Europe... just like they did in history.

If you want to focus on anything, focus on domestic achievements. And again, don't go too far, like deboss did with DARPA single-handedly developing the Internet when that is completely untrue.

If you want to know why people don't like this type of talk or behaviour is because it is exactly why there is so much anti-US bashing in the first place. Americans claiming to single-handedly doing stuff that were collective efforts, or ignoring the contributions/circumstances of situations or the consequences of certain actions. It's like when Americans proclaim that if it weren't for them, then Canada would have no military protection! Except, the only country to ever invade Canada was the United States, so really, is this some kind of racketeer's claim?

I think I accidentally hardened my viewpoint during this argument. All I suggested was that US involvement hastened Nazi Germanies fall, and that they didn't have to swing east first. My main point was that if they hadn't gone that direction, Germany might have got the bomb.

So yeah, it wasn't a solo effort. But it was a case of one country managing to look past the immediate threat ("Oh God the Japs are coming to kill us!") and look forward to the fact that Germany, while not the most immediate threat to them, was the biggest threat to the alliance.

So yeah, I managed to let my own argument get derailed.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Well actually that might be a good discussion for a different thread. What do you think would have been different if the USA focused on Japan first and Germany second? What would America's relationship in Asia be like today?

Please tell me you're joking. That ranks higher than Hitler's decision to attack the Soviets in the first place on the scale of military stupidity.

From the Wiki article on Operation Unthinkable:

As a side note, good luck convincing French and Polish troops to fight alongside Germans.

Not when Deutsche Physik is the order of the day.

edited 30th Jul '11 11:17:31 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Deboss. Don't exagerate what I said into something I didn't say. Working on something and inventing something are two entirely different things. As a science-lover, I am sure you can tell the difference.

The Quiet One. No OTT. No unfunny. No squick. No crusades. Harmless and clean.

I sometimes wonder about that. Imagine if Liberia had become a model for African democracy with an industrially developed economy, a beachhead of freedom boosted by hands-off reparations from the US in its early years, promoting black self-determination in an era when Africa was gripped by European colonial exploitation. On the other hand, of course, it could've given the USA an unhealthy taste for expansionism, and possibly even instilled a bizarre proto-Marxist “global revolution” doctrine.

The British (Magna Carta) admittedly share a bit of credit here, but I think this is the 1# most important thing the USA has given to the world. If the American Revolution hadn't happened or succeeded, I can easily imagine democracy having slipped away into the dustbin of history.

Close behind was the historically unprecedented magnanimousness of Washington surrendering the presidency after one term.

Much like Taiwan up until very recently, and likely the same for Vietnam if we'd won there.

@Deboss: Screw DARPA, Bell Labs and the university system did all the heavy lifting.

Yep, remember much of the Axis defeat was due to oil shortages. On a related note, much of the Marshall Plan's aid wasn't financial, it was food and medicine to stave off famine all across Europe.

Eric,

Yeah, this is something that Europeans often concede on the Internet when WWII is discussed, but that Americans remind us of even more often than we manage to reply to, so here it is again:

You did save our ass in both World Wars. Thank you.

edited 30th Jul '11 12:02:18 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I'd... dispute the First World War one. Simply because there were no good guys there. Besides the leader of Austria.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Self thumped, off topic.

edited 30th Jul '11 12:12:29 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.