The Oslo bombing and Utoya mass-shooting thread (try #2)

We gave Nazi's a trial despite the things they did. He will get his day in court then sentenced appropriately.

What I am hoping as others have noted it would likely be in the publics best interest if his exposure to public media and attention be minimized and he be treated like any other severe criminal would.

The charges of crimes against humanity are unusual. How would they make them stick?

He's admitted killing them but he hasn't admitted guilt. His defence are going for the insanity plea and its going to be behind closed doors.

But whatever way, he has to be locked up for the longest time possible. Out of justice, or public protection, or even personal protection. It's all going to come to the same outcome.

Also, committing the action means your guilty, whatever your motives.

I'm glad they're not letting the media in anyway. The only thing he wants now is to air his views, so it's good they've had the sense not to let him.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:44:52 PM by ArlaGrey

Actually, he is admitting what he did, but claims it wasn't a crime or some other bullshit. Basically "Yes I shot a bunch of unarmed socialists, but I don't think that is really a crime."

I heard about the insanity plea earlier. That may explain why he demanded to wear his uniform and medals.

Murder/manslaughter?

But I agree in this point. The guy is definetly going away for a long long time.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:47:24 PM by JosefBugman

To be fair, the judge probably does not have to permit him to say whatever he wants, or make whatever defense he likes.

Admittedly, I do not know Norwegian legal procedure, I don't even know if he has a right to a jury trial, but I can't imagine he gets carte-blanche to say what he likes.

I'm happy that the trial will be closed doors. That keeps it from becoming any more of a media circus than it already is, and stops this dude from using it as a forum for his aberrant beliefs.

In the USA, right-wing pundits have had a habit for a little while of making jokes to a similar effect. How long before the violent rhetoric encourages some poor gullible nut to go the same route?

At least the guy didn't try to kill himself like the kids in the Arizona shootings. What were their motives?

edited 26th Jul '11 1:46:48 PM by GoodGuyGreg

Wangst, basically. And you don't generally see social liberals committing or even threatening acts of political violence. Radical leftists, sure, but there are remarkably few of those in America, and most of them are idiots like PETA and Greenpeace.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:47:44 PM by Fighteer

Yeah, I met people on this forum who don't consider that a crime.

Anyway, I believe in fair trials, and not haaving post ipso facto penalties. One can't stand for a democratic society with a set legal system and ditch it the moment somone defies it.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:47:44 PM by JethroQWalrustitty

-starts typing sentences then erasing them several times- I'll spare you the Angrish: wangst is a self destructive feeling. You can't kill indiscriminately for that. It's beyond absurd.

You're not talking about who I think you're talking? I've missed the first thread and didn't get in out of Archive Panic, but please don't tell me he actually went and said such a thing.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:49:32 PM by GoodGuyGreg

Well they certainly weren't political killings, if it's Columbine you're thinking about. It was a couple of kids who felt like social outcasts and got all Nietzsche Wannabe and decided to go out in a blaze of glory. Stupidity maybe but not the particular brand we're discussing here.

Edit: Yes, he did say such a thing and got at least a temp ban out of it.

Acts of violence in furtherance of political goals, absent a declared state of war, are never justified. Ever. Most sane people agree with that.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:51:55 PM by Fighteer

Even from a purely logical standpoint, him trying to say it wasn't a crime is ridiculous. It is against the law to plant bombs and go on shooting sprees, therefore it is a crime, whether people agree it is wrong or not.

How could anyone ever argue this standpoint unless they were completely insane?

There's actually a great degree of distinction in legal terms over what is insane.

Complete insanity is not necessary for one to be insane, but still able to tell right from wrong, and thus culpable for a criminal action.

I don't see him as rising to the complete insanity level, though I suppose on a fuller examination it would be possible.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:54:34 PM by blueharp

I think he knows right from wrong. He clearly expects to be punished, which says he knows that society thinks that killing is bad. He might be a genuine sociopath, but he doesn't show any psychopathic or schizophrenic tendences: no claim of voices in his head or a break from reality.

Things that have not been addressed:

1) He needs a trial, because if his confession is taken at face value it becomes accepted legal fact which, depending on the wording, could be used in the defence of his colleagues. Every word of his confession must be tested in court, even if the result is still Guilty. Not to mention that accepting a plea of guilty as standard would get a lot of guilty people off for the same reason, people do plead guilty to protect others. Not in this case, but you can't sacrifice the ability to tear apart a false confession just because it saves you one squicky trial.

2) Obfuscating Insanity, anyone? I am far from convinced he isn't very sane and very misguided.

Alright, good, a reasonable explanation. In that case, I take back saying that he shouldn't be given a trial. I still don't think he deserves one, but that is a good reason to give him one.

And, completely insane was an exageration by me, but I don't believe anyone who believes it's acceptable to murder people can be completely sane either. They must be missing something, like a conscience or a sense of empathy.

edited 26th Jul '11 2:08:30 PM by ArlaGrey

RE: School shootings. There were two school shooting a few years back here in Finland, and it's partly debatable wherther or not there is a political element to it. The first shooter (Pekka-Erica Auvinen) personally stated in his pre-rampage message that the shooting was not a school shooting, but a political act (also, no points for guessing his political views).

There was also the Red Lake massacre, where the shooter was a Native National Socialist.

Counterexample: I was educated with what Rottweiler would have called "the Classic Cannn" (where is the old feller anywhay?). Iliad, Odyssey, Romances, classic novels... and I was raised in a religiously traditional environment. Until I was about fourteen I thought Honor-Related Abuse (specifically, killing for Defiled Forever and Duel to the Death for Ridiculed Forever) was not only okay, it was what one ought to do, no matter how much it may pain them. You'd have had trouble finding a nicer, more generous, more compassionate kid than I. My superego was so absurdly strong I thought Shinji Ikari didn't beat himself up enough.

I grew out of it.

Perfectly nice, wonderful people can be murderously violent if they adhere to a code of honour that forces them to.

Breivik is now demanding special food, being allowed to wear his uniform and his laptop so that he can refine his manifesto and publish it on Wikipedia. The police refused (naturally), so now he's refusing to talk about his contacts.

Entitled little narcissist, isn't he?

Publish on Wikipedia? But wait, wait, Wikipedia forbids Original Research!

OMG! The gall of the man.

But I think his demands are pointless, he wouldn't talk anyway.

edited 26th Jul '11 2:36:09 PM by blueharp

Oh, great. That's awesome — so he's leveraging his so-called allies against getting to spew his brand of crazy in public. I think he's lying and is a solo agent, honestly.

Must have bought WEPON from someone

But he wasn't raised to believe this was an OK thing to do. If he had been indoctrated by everyone around him from childhood it would be almost understandable... but he wasn't.

I think I read that the weapon was legally registered.

edited 26th Jul '11 2:42:49 PM by ArlaGrey