Have you looked at the political X/Y axes I mentioned earlier?
Nihilist Hippie
There we go.
edited 25th Jul '11 8:30:03 AM by LoveHappiness
"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
The Shadows Devour You.
Hmm, I saw a post mentioning them in passing; you have a link?
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Political spectrum linked through the wikipedia links above covers it.
V
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Of course, it means that somebody could have Left-Wing Social Views and Right-Wing Economic views, or vice-versa.
Life, and people, fit rarely into those little category boxes — You are A, you must believe A + B + C + D — or maybe that's just an American thing?
edited 25th Jul '11 8:31:24 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
The Shadows Devour You.
In France, where the terms originated, the Left is called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order".[1]
I thought this was interesting. So those are the original terms.
In which case, if you were in a state with universal healthcare, seeing that healthcare taken away would be a left-wing position (party of movement.)
I think these terms have shifted focus since then.
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Moar and Moar and Moar
The problem is that there ALWAYS exceptions. So you get accused of playing the strawman. However. I think that's often a wrongly used objection.
But generally here's how I see it.
Economically:
Left—Demand side economics Right—Supply side economics
Socially/Culturally Left—Rationalist based morality Right—Traditionalist/Authoritarian based morality
So the big problem, is that while I might not and do not agree with everybody who looks at things from a demand side of view, me talking to someone who has a supply side view is like speaking a different language. The ships are going in entirely the opposite directions.
Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Political spectrum
is Wikipedia's take. I reccomend Nolan Chart (variations), Political Compass, Pournelle Chart, etc. I like Brian Patrick Mitchell. My profile:
- Nolan Chart: Libertarian
- Politopia: Northwest
- Liberty in 3-D: tolerant market anarchy
- Enhanced Prescision: Radical Libertarian
- OK Cupid: Anarchist
- Pournelle Chart: 1/5' (State as Ultimate Evil & Reason Enthroned)
Also, on Fascism:
The Left-Right Wings fails with regards to fascism:
There were factions within Italian Fascism on both the left and the right. The accommodation of the political right into Fascism in the early 1920s led to the creation of a number of internal factions in the Italian Fascist movement. The "Fascist left" included Angelo Oliviero Olivetti, Sergio Panunzio, and Edmondo Rossoni, who were committed to advancing national syndicalism as a replacement for parliamentary liberalism in order to modernize the economy and advance the interests of workers and the common people.[43] The "Fascist right" included members of the Fascist paramilitary "Squadristi" and former members of the Italian Nationalist Association (ANI).[43] The Squadristi wanted to establish of Fascism as a complete dictatorship, while the former ANI members, including Alfredo Rocco, sought an authoritarian corporatist state to replace the liberal state in Italy, while retaining existing elites.[43] There were also smaller factions within the Italian Fascist movement, such as the "clerical Fascists" who sought to shift Italian Fascism from its anti-Catholic roots to accepting Catholicism. There were also "monarchist Fascists" who sought to use Fascism to create an absolute monarchy under King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy.[43]
A number of fascist movements described themselves as a "third force" outside of the traditional political spectrum.[44] Mussolini promoted ambiguity about fascism's positions in order to rally as many people to it as possible, saying fascists can be "aristocrats or democrats, revolutionaries and reactionaries, proletarians and anti-proletarians, pacifists and anti-pacifists".[45] Mussolini claimed that Italian Fascism's economic system of corporatism could be identified as either state capitalism or state socialism, which in either case involved "the bureaucratisation of the economic activities of the nation."[46] Mussolini described fascism in any language he found useful.[45][47] Spanish Falangist leader José Antonio Primo de Rivera was critical of both left-wing and right-wing politics, once saying that "basically the Right stands for the maintenance of an economic structure, albeit an unjust one, while the Left stands for the attempt to subvert that economic structure, even though the subversion thereof would entail the destruction of much that was worthwhile".[48]
This has more to do with the Third International defining Fascism as:
It's really:
The Fascist Manifesto:
Politically, the Manifesto calls for:
- Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women;
- Proportional representation on a regional basis;
- Voting for women (which was opposed by most other European nations);
- Representation at government level of newly created National Councils by economic sector;
- The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the King. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the Crown);
- The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers (this concept was rooted in corporatist ideology and derived in part from Catholic social doctrine).
In labour and social policy, the Manifesto calls for:
- The quick enactment of a law of the State that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
- A minimum wage;
- The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
- To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
- Reorganisation of the railways and the transport sector;
- Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
- Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.
In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates:
- Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
- Armaments factories are to be nationalised;
- A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.
In finance, the Manifesto advocates:
- A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
- The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
- Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
- The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.
The Manifesto thus combined elements of contemporary democratic and progressive thought (franchise reform, labour reform, limited nationalisation, taxes on wealth and war profits) with corporatist emphasis on class collaboration (the idea of social classes existing side by side and collaborating for the sake of national interests; the opposite of the Marxist notion of class struggle).
edited 25th Jul '11 9:45:07 AM by secretist
TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
Needs to be more Evil
Left-wing politics tends to be built on the idea that we can try to change society to make it better (that often includes wealth redistribution in some form, but can also cover things like gay rights), and right-wing politics is often a resistence to that idea. I tend to take this later view: existing social systems are complex and not very well understood, the ideas proposed by young people who are not very versed in law and economics and history are more likely to make things worse than better, and the current process for selecting ideas (elections) are not guaranteed to pick good ones, only of picking ideas that don't sound awful (which eliminates some bad ones, but not all).
Why all the stuff about fascism? That doesn't seem to be the topic here ...
edited 25th Jul '11 9:03:19 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor
Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.
The Shadows Devour You.
Then why don't we get more movement from the older sections of society? People do seem to get more conservative as they age...
The fascism post does highlight some of the confusion. Nobody is quite sure where it goes; some say its centrist, others right wing, and some say its a mixture of the lot.
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Well the concepts are fluid, since at any particular point in time, the left/right view on any particular political issue is going to change, as well as the issues at hand. I mean, I doubt immigration was a serious discussion in Europe until recently and the split is usually that the left thinks that immigration can be helpful whereas the right thinks it cannot be helpful.
Needs to be more Evil
"more movement from the older sections of society" ... you mean like the Tea Party?
The Shadows Devour You.
I was directly responding to your post about young people tending to be ill-informed. I took it as an implication that youths tend to be the ones to move towards change; left wing.
But yeah, stuff like the Tea Party... well I guess that proves the old folks are as prone to fuck ups as the youngsters. In my obviously biased opinion. (I've just revealed what I think of the Tea Party.)
edited 25th Jul '11 9:25:46 AM by GameChainsaw
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
The tea party was a decent idea that got quickly co-opted by people who realized it was really easy to twist a few facts here and there and get a bunch of frothing at the mouth voters out to elect politicians the republican party would consider too extreme.
Needs to be more Evil
Eh, the tea party's ideas don't seem more crazy than the average starry-eyed idealistic teenager, they're just better organized.
edited 25th Jul '11 9:34:40 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor
Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.
depends on your idea of more or less crazy.
Karkadinn
The Tea Party thinks taxes are too high when they're at record lows.
Even I wasn't that delusional and self-absorbed when I was a teenager.
Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Needs to be more Evil
This isn't a thread on the tea party, I'm no the best person for defending them, I'm not a huge fan of them either.
edited 25th Jul '11 9:42:58 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor
Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.I added a summary of the Fascist Manifesto. Would you count those points as left wing or right wing?
TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
Nihilist Hippie
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
edited 25th Jul '11 9:47:02 AM by LoveHappiness
"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
The Shadows Devour You.
Not exactly objective Love. (God damn it, here's an objective source.
Actual Wrestling Legend
The Right opposes collectivism. When taken to extremes, a collectivist society is a police state. A hard-right utopia is a feudal aristocracy.
The Tea Party is innovative in how it's gunning for both of these: a feudal society which employs the cops and military as their border guard.
I'm a skeptical squirrel
KVLFON
To me: Right is the conservative and Left is the progressive. Like the French, I look to the original meaning as the last one that was relatively clear. I'd use it as my Personal Dictionary, but I still occasionally use them in the common way, for sake of the conversation.
"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"
Karkadinn
As far as police stating goes, I don't see the right being particularly opposed to it when it meets their ends. Increased security to stop the terrorists, war on drugs, etc etc. Of recent decades, at least, the right has always been happy to embrace the use of legal force... but only when it meets their goals. The left differs primarily in just what their goals are.
Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Ok, after my foot-in-mouth incident posted mere minutes earlier...
What the hecko does Left and Right Wing mean anyway? Thats the topic of discussion here.
In my mind, I've broken left and right down into two categories; social and economic left and right.
Social: Left wing allows social freedoms; LGBT rights, relaxed rules on immigration, rehabilitation over punishment, basically relaxing social rules. Right wing moves in the opposite directions, and I tend to associate it with homophobia and immigration paranoia. Needless to say I identify as being left on these issues.
Economic: Left wing advocates welfare programs such as free healthcare and education, and also things like the dole and minimum wages. Right wing is basically laissez-faire approaches. I get the impression this could also bring up Keynesian versus Austrian schools of thought. I'd be leftist if I wasn't so damn hard on fiscal responsibility (I hate debt.) As it is, I probably register as centrist. My focus is on balancing the budget and then spending what is left, first on preserving lives and then on bringing in money. Tertiary concerns are tertiary. Also, right wing tends to be associated with greater military spending; not sure whether to class that under social as well. Both left wing and right wing are equally susceptible to warfare under the right conditions, but the right wing tend to be better prepared...
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.