Japanese Works Names Translated

Something I've noticed with Japanese titles is that lots of them are in romaji (English letters) but are still written in Japanese. While I understand wanting to keep the original name, this is, without a doubt, an English site. That is to say, if everything else in this site is in English, why aren't these titles?

Example: Hana no Kishi In English is translates into 'Knight of Flowers'. While this is not an exact translation, it's pretty darn close. I know there are lots of purists out there who hate the idea of anything Japanese being in English, but I don't see the reason in keeping titles that can be translated.

I propose having the English title be the main name of the article, and the Japanese being a redirect. Because I'm not sure how many tropers are going to be able to remember (much less understand) titles like 'Ore no Imōto ga Konna ni Kawaii Wake ga Nai' when 'My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute' is a perfectly acceptable translation and in the language everyone here speaks. If we're going to have titles in Japanese, why not use Japanese lettering as well? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Your thoughts?

Well, if there's an official, authorized English translation, it's probably best to use the official title attached to that. Which, in some cases, means English, and some cases, means Japanese. I don't think there's a lot of controversy about that notion in general (although the Fan Dumb may get upset when the newly released translation doesn't use their preferred name in a few specific cases, especially when the translation is considered subpar, so using that name would mean the work is Ruined FOREVER!).

Also, I think, in some cases, people just forget to rename or add redirects when an official English translation finally appears.

When the work doesn't have an official English version, things get trickier. You could use translations in all cases, but in many cases, the work is only known by its Japanese name, so a translation would confuse as many people as it would help.

There's a huge thread at the wiki talk forum about exactly this. They're now discussing a compromise of splitting every such trope into Trope and Trope In Japan, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere near resolution.

He's talking about Works Pages, not Tropes.

I am of the opinion that Works should use the original title, in all cases. No matter the language. Having the translations as redirects is, of course, fine.

He is? The thread title says "tropes" and nowhere in the message does it say otherwise.

Both of his examples, Hana No Kishi and Ore Imo are works, not tropes.

Edit: Fuck, its too early/late and I can't even spell Ore Imo's full title correctly right now.

edited 18th Jul '11 3:32:40 AM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Okay, the things we do with works pages is rather complicated. This, to my knowledge is "how things are currently done" rather than "these are the rules set out by the admins/mods".

Normally, we use the title with which the media is legally marketed with in english speaking countries. So something like Zatch Bell, stays as is. Things that have A)not been translated or B)been translated but not picked up or C)been picked up, but not advertised keep their name.

Yeah, I don't think we should try and translate works titles ourselves. Even the Other Wiki doesn't do that.

My attitude is that if there is an official English translated title, it okay to use that one. However, if the page was created before an official translated title is available I don't really feel it's worth the bother of moving the page once it does get translated. Just add it as a redirect.

In fact, even if there is a translated title available and someone creates it under the Japanese name, let it be. Just add the English as a redirect.

Sort of like how if someone creates a trope with the English spelling we don't move to a page with an American spelling we just add it as a redirect.

Agreed with and

The more militant Japanophiles will actually change around links to make the Japanese title, even if the page was launched under the official English title (I launched Strawberry 100% under its English title, and someone later came in and made its Japanese title, Ichigo 100%, the main page). It'd be helpful to have an official policy on foreign titles for works.

It's a bit understandable when the trope page launches before an official English release happens (Mirai Nikki had a page at least 6 months before it was first licensed). But it's more than a little silly that people will actually go through the trouble of doing redirects because they want the Japanese title up.

I think using the official English title as the main page is actually best, because this makes it consistent with the video games section (for examples of this in action, see The World Ends With You, Kid Icarus, Mega Man, and Castlevania). Consistency is always good.

I've mostly seen us using the same names as whatever the manga sites are using. So yes, that's mostly Japanese. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, but I wouldn't be opposed to swapping the English term for the redirect, except for the really established terms. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use the English title for Mahou Sensei Negima (Magic Teacher Negi, for the record), for example, although that might have something to do with how the official English version is a Macekre.

Using the English name is what we do in almost all cases. For example, we have The Hunchback Of Notre Dame instead of Notre Dame De Paris. Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea instead of Vingt Mille Lieues Sous Les Mers, War And Peace instead of Voyna I Mir, Eat Drink Man Woman instead of Yin Shi Nan Nu, and Seven Samurai instead of Shichinin No Samurai (note that that last is not Anime or Manga, which is why the Anime/Manga folks don't obsess about it—they've probably never heard of it). In one (count it, one) of those cases, we have a redirect from the original language, and that's because the original title is reasonably well known.

Of course, in cases where the original title is used for the English version, like Les Miserables, we do the same, because it would be silly to do otherwise.

{You were doing fine 'til you got to this paragraph. Making dismissive assumptions about people who feel differently than you is a good way to turn a thread ugly in a hurry. —Madrugada}

edited 18th Jul '11 9:26:47 AM by Madrugada

{And that goes for you too. —Madrugada}

Really its first come first serve on titles and just put the other in a redirect when it becomes official. There are a huge number of titles that have different titles out there (Every Ratchet And Clank game for instance) it will just start a fight.

edited 18th Jul '11 9:27:52 AM by Madrugada

No, it's not "first come first served" on works titles. We want the official title, and if there are two or more of them, the one that is in widest use by the people we expect to read the wiki gets priority.

edited 18th Jul '11 9:29:36 AM by Madrugada

@11 - YMMV on the official translation of Negima being a Macekre - it has its issues, yes, but I think it does much better than the more militant scanlation fans want to admit.

Also, for that matter, the official name of the english translation is simply Negima (with a subtitle of Magister Negi Magi, which is one way to refer to the main character, so not the worst addition to the official title one could find). You're right in that nobody uses the literal translation of Mahou Sensei Negima - because a good chunk of the fandom uses the portmanteau series nickname for it, so the official translation just codified that instead.

Anime and manga pages are the only ones on this wiki with the inconsistency; as noted, novels, video games, and live action films all manage to use the English title. And even some series under anime and manga use the official English title as the main title (e.g. Spiceand Wolf). It's fine to have the Japanese title as a redirect, but the main page should be the official title.

Work pages are covered under the TRS.

Wouldn't it be utterly and completely ridiculous to translate Yu-Gi-Oh into King Of Games!? No one would have the slightest idea what we were talking about.

If the work is marketed with an English title to English-speaking countries, then yes, we should use that, whether it's a translation or a whole new name. But we shouldn't just go around translating nomenclature.

edited 18th Jul '11 10:18:37 AM by StarryEyed

Nobody uses Negima Negi Magister Magi seriously nobody... It's Negima Negima!, Mahou Sensei Negima Negima Second Season.

As well as noone is using the English title for Working (which is not in English.) and a bunch of other series.

Self translation series like Ore Imo are bad (that one is I Can't believe my sister is this cute.)

Okay, my bad. I see someone fixed the thread title too.

In that case, It think it worth mentioning that a perusal of the Manga index shows a pretty high percentage of English names, perhaps easily over half of the names. In general, I think there is nothing wrong with using a Japanese name if that is the name most commonly used for the work.

Of course, "Negima Negi Magister Magi" isn't even an English title anyway, it is Latin, so if we are going to use a non-English name, it makes sense to use the one best known to the fans, not to mention the one that the original creator came up with.

edited 18th Jul '11 10:27:49 AM by Auxdarastrix

Anime and manga pages tend to be the only one affected because they tend to be the only ones that are commonly referred to in several languages.

I didn't read Notre Dame de Paris; the book I read was titled "The Hunchback of Notre Dame". It said so, right on the spine and the title page. When it was published in translation, the name was changed.

But my copy of the first book of The Divine Comedy (not Divina Commedia, you'll note) was titled The Inferno, not Hell; the second one was The Purgatorio, not Purgatory; and the third one was The Paradiso, not Heaven. The publishers decided to keep the Italian word in the names on that one, rather than translating it. So it's the Italian name that are official, even for translations.

edited 18th Jul '11 10:57:35 AM by Madrugada

@18 Yes, translating Yu-Gi-Oh! would be silly, but only because every incarnation of the series has gone without translating the title in its American release.

@19 Nobody uses a subtitle for a series name unless there's reason to do so. So while Negima in translation has it on the front of every volume, the spine always just says Negima. And going off on that tangent is missing the point - the main point being that we should use what the official title is (for this series, according to the books themselves and the official website, that would simply be Negima).

At any rate, how about we all not get sidetracked by subtitles and their use for this conversation?

@21 You mean La Commedia. That's what Dante Aligheri actually wrote it as.

That one is dicey, though, because you will see translations go both ways. All of the translations I own (yes, I own multiple; I love The Divine Comedy) do refer to the three sections as Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso. However, it's not hard to find translations that do, in fact, call the three sections Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise. Each translator has their own technique, and that work's translation isn't nearly as codified in officiality as, say, The Hunchback Of Notre Dame or Crime And Punishment.

Sounds like the official ruling is that the main page should be the form that is most well known to fans of the work. So if you don't know the work in question then you probably ought not worry about it.

The official ruling is that we use the official name if there's only one, regardless of the language it's in. If there are multiple "official names", we use the one that's most widely used, regardless of which language it in. We aren't going to start translating all Japanese works names into English, but if most of the people who talk about it call it "Mega Man" we aren't going to call it "Rockman" just because that's what it's called in Japan. We'll make that a redirect, but it's not going to automatically displace the English name.

I think you should make the restriction that it's the title most used in english speaking countries.