General Digimon Topic

Also, just declaring all kinds of stuff as crap like it's some fact is really not helping your argument, Indirect Active Transport. I honestly thought Adventure 02 was overall better than 01. I found it far more fun and interesting, with better jokes too(dub-wise, to be clear). They both had their own issues anyway. Or to put it bluntly, is there any reason you're declaring things crap while giving absolutely zero reasoning and just being a severe negative nancy?(please keep in mind I typed this before your latest message which gave some explanation, and I do think you're still taking this a bit too far.)

Anyway, yeah, Super Ultimate are still Ultimates. They never were a real level. They're seriously pretty much just what Burst Modes are at this point, updates to a previous Digimon. I forget which all of them were. I know there was Demon Super Ultimate, Arkadimon Super Ultimate, and Armageddamon. What else officially had that title? Wikimon sadly didn't bother to make it a category. >_>(I know it's not a real level by any means, but it is something that specific Digimon fall under)

edited 11th Apr '15 11:05:04 PM by Irene

I never said Arkadimon was classified as one. Just called one. I think it's much easier to say he was just called that because his power was always above the Ultimate level Digimon.

It's not just a matter of games without the level using those Digimon. Armagemon's profile is not unique, Chronomon is treated in a similar way. Cyber Sleuth actually has the Super Ultimate level and makes those Digimon equivalent to Ultimates.

The events of 02 have nothing to do with Armagemon's profile. Going on a tirade against 02 or that particular movie proves absolutely nothing. The profile is completely consistent with the idea that Super Ultimate is a descriptor, and it's the same way Chronomon is handled.

Also, this. Look, dude, it's fine you dislike 02, but you're really taking this severely far. Please drop your Single-Issue Wonk about it, it's tiring and really hurting your argument.

The movies outside of the first two were seriously not canon or at least never declared that, so anything that happens beyond those two cannot be compared to the Anime. Also, let's keep in mind that they had trouble with all of Diaboramon's forms during the overall battles. Likewise, why is it so hard to believe that Diaboramon could create some highly powerful creatures that even Omnimon started to have trouble with? Let's not pretend every single Digimon of the same species is going to be the exact same strength. That's not realistic. One Greymon may be stronger than another. And we've seen Baby levels in an actual media outright take down way higher levels. And that's in one of the Mangas, although I do not know if it's one of the canon ones. What I'm basically saying is you're acting like levels and being the same species is the end be all of everything. It was never that way, and many Digimon have changed from one level to another overall. Kimeramon was a Mega originally, but is now an Ultimate. Hercules Kabuterimon was first an Ultimate, then officially became a Mega. Things change. Retcons happen. And many species can be just plain better sometimes than another member. Ice Devimon is a pushover in Xros Wars, only decently strong in Tamers, and was treated like a Mega in Frontier, where levels almost never mattered. We literally saw very few digivolutions, but they didn't act like Candlemon was a Rookie or Raremon was a Champion. It never came up. The point I'm getting at is that the shows are there more for entertainment than some hard fast rules on power levels. The fact that Skull Satamon gave Dragon Mode a hard time was not a bad thing. It in fact was a great way to introduce a new level while showing how great one of the many devil Digimon could be, as well as making Daemon even better looking, as his personal army was madly powerful, further proving how much a great challenge he'll be. That said, the fact they barely fought Daemon at all is an actual issue, I admit. Myotismon stole the stage that time, but I have a pretty big doubt they could've beaten Daemon anyway. That said, the fact that plotline wasn't resolved much at all, nor was Dagomon's one-episode arc is an issue too.

Anyway, Adventure Tri may start fixing these little problems by having past characters appear. I actually would like it if they had Super Ultimate Digimon show up. And named as such, if only to actually make it feel like it matters. The shows never dwelled on it, and they simply never bothered to say something is better than a Mega outside of Burst Mode at best, actually noting how much it went beyond the Mega level.

edited 12th Apr '15 2:21:26 PM by Irene

Since you're asking, I put down Adventure 02 because of it's plot holes, inconsistency and lack of direction(and static characters and satellite characters and a one dimensional approach to combat).

When Zeromaru encountered a Deathmon stronger than the previous, the point was raised, both to his partner and to the reader. If we're supposed to buy the baby form being magnitudes more powerful than what it's supposed to become five levels later, that begs some explanation, especially since nothing of the sort had ever happened in the Adventure series before.

The explanation of Okuwamon not being a real Digimon and thus able to No-Sell Angemon's attacks wasn't a particularly good one, but at least a handwave was attempted. It was clear they were trying to keep him from affecting the plot as much as possible. Didn't do a good job but tried.

Making Tailmon's ring tied to her level kind of missed the entire point of what the rings meant in the first place, given BlackTailmon has no ring without suffering a level drop, while Plotmon still retained its holy ring when regressing in level but they were free to tell whatever story they wanted.

Changing Kimeramon from an ultimate to a perfect was completely unnecessary(they could have used any perfect they liked or just made a new one from whole cloth) and kind of made Anode/Cathode Tamer's plot impossible(Jogress being of the same level wasn't just a plot point, it was a game mechanic) but I can't say it didn't display the kind of power expected of a perfect in 02 itself.

But at the same time, before Revenge Of Diablomon even came out the same exact monster in the same narrative body was somehow of two different levels as a result of 02 lack of or contempt of attention to detail. That's why I say Armageddmon being listed as two different levels at once is a product of it being from 02.

What bugs me is the suggestion that super ultimate was never meant to be it's own level. It may have only appeared in maybe three bits of media, but other levels have came and gone as well. Xros Wars wasn't even the first time they vanished, they were equally irrelevant in Frontier beyond Human Spirit-Beast Spirit-Fusion Spirit-Unified. Super Ultimate was clearly meant to be it's own level in V-Tamer and in the mini based on the fact multiple monster evolved to it in the same manner as the other levels. Which monsters qualified were not consistent, true, but monsters have switched from perfect to child before. The difference between the Pendulum series or C-Mon to V-Tamer, and say, The Adventure-02-Wonder Swan series, is that which level what monster was at stayed internally consistent.

In addition to what you already listed, AlforceVeedramon Future Mode and both modes of Chronomon were introduced as Super Ultimate level monsters. Omegamon was a super in the Digimon Mini, and truth be told, I didn't like that either. Besides the fact Omegamon evolved from WarGreymon on his own in the mini, ignoring Omegamon's entire reason for existing was to sell more copies of the virus busters pendulum zero with the jogress gimmick, the Super Ultimate level as concept predates the later pendulums and by extension, Omegamon himself. If Omegamon was meant to be a super mega, it would have been revealed in V-Tamer, where the level was first mentioned. But franchise inconsistency aside, the mini series still remained consistent with each other. The Adventure series broke consistency with the rest of Digimon and itself and that is almost entirely due to the plot of 02.

You should feel personally insulted if you like 02. I prefer 02's dub to the Japanese and Adventure 01, English or Japanese, with the exception of the Pilot movie and Our War Game, because of the jokes it added. But at the same time, it doesn't change that the plot was a mess that forced the next installment to start over from scratch. If you feel 02 isn't inferior despite the reasons given, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You guys' posts are so loooong.

Wait, did you just say "I should feel personally insulted for liking 02"? Or did you mean to say I should not.

I am not disagreeing that it has issues. That's why I asked to see what you disliked(instead of just saying it sucks, an explanation is nice and something I can respect). However, an artificial Digimon likely has different properties from a properly made one. I can see them being treated as being "Free" by default because they weren't hatched from an Egg. A lot of ones made by other Digimon(like the Diaboramon line) happen to be Unknown. It's likely because of self-replication/asexual reproduction. Makes sense. To clarify, I agree Omnimon being unable to handle them was silly. However, that's assuming they're the same as the originals, which were weaker. What I'm saying is, one Kuramon being easy to defeat doesn't mean another will, and a ton can be severely difficult. The level itself was not taken much into account here. They had to have an excuse to show the new Digimon by worfing Omnimon. I am not saying it was a good idea, but it does have logic to it.

The thing about the Dark Towers, is that we cannot say it only creates Virus Digimon anyway(it created a Vaccine type as well among the Mammothmon family). And yeah, Angemon was pretty damn overpowered too. Magna Angemon more so. I don't blame them for avoiding overusing him to easily solve issues, or making up something. They did that just as well in 01. I don't agree the anime was largely inconsistent at all(remember, non-canon movies don't really prove anything), but it did have plot holes, ones I hope Tri fixes.

I think quality debates aren't strictly about length, but the message being good in itself to read and reply to. With all due respect, if you aren't interested, talk about something else besides the message's length. I'm sure you have something fun to say~

edited 12th Apr '15 2:43:47 PM by Irene

So, anyone else want to see Huckmon in the new series, at least for one episode?

Would be nice showing more Royal Knights that aren't the stock Omnimon and Magnamon at this point. The others get a bit, but they aren't shown often instead. Dynasmon and Lord Knightmon very much got a really good moment during Frontier, but that was it.

I just want Huckmon since he was featured in a lot of the anniversary stuff; the Adventure PSP game, the 15th Anniversary Digivices, heck, Cyber Sleuth has him involved at some point along with Gankoomon.

I want to see if Lillmon will become Rosemon or Banchou Lilymon.

And if it's the latter, I can't wait to see the look on everyone (especially Mimi's) face.

Actually, would a good Mega evolution for Shakkoumon be Shakamon?

Don't feel personally insulted is what I meant.

Speaking of BanchoLilimon, Darkdramon is suddenly out numbered by a noticeable margin. Think his group will ever get expanded upon to make up the difference?

It does seem fitting. Maybe it'll become a thing later.

Ah. I'm thinking more Machine/Cyborg Digimon could join his ranks, perhaps. Or team up with the Crack Team.

edited 12th Apr '15 4:20:40 PM by Irene

I would prefer if it didn't happen. Shakamon is way too cheap to be an available form for any of the main characters, this Digimon can't even be properly challenged according to his profile.

edited 12th Apr '15 4:17:21 PM by ShadowAbyss

You're talking to the guy who wants Fanglongmon to be a main Digimon, just to forget what Fusion did to him.

I will give you that. FangLongmon's appearence as a mount in Fusion was a major disservice for anyone waiting to see him in the anime. But again, there was no level system in this season, so a lot of Digimon were nerfed and looked unimpressive as a result. I also would like to see the guy get a proper and respectable role somewhere, but again, these are certain types of characters you shouldn't give to the main cast.

Make it so that Fanglongmon gets reduced to his Rookie level and gains amnesia or something, hanging around the main humans or becoming one of their partners or something; he gets a separate Mega form outside of his Fanglongmon state, and ultimately returns to that state at the end while fighting some incredibly powerful villain. He then sends all the humans back to their world but not before thanking them for helping him.

Granted, it's not a good idea, but at least it's something.

edited 12th Apr '15 5:08:50 PM by Ssj3Gojira

@Irene: Oh, the posts aren't necessarily bad, I'm just having a little fun being whiny about their length.

I think we need more cool looking plant lines and megas.

Ah, fair enough. There are some who actually do what you did, but not for fun instead. Kind of annoying when it's not meant as a joke.

Anyway, I agree. Plants aren't given enough. Alraumon(a palette swap of Palmon) is a decent rookie choice for this, and goes into Veggiemon and both of its alternate versions too(Red and Zassoumon). I think you could get a decent line here from that point.

There is Algomon and its Mega variation, but they're Mutants with plant-like properties.

Speaking of, remember when I noted the Dark Masters all had fun Burst Modes? It's kind of sad that Puppetmon is the only one that can't go into someone similar to his design. There are very few Plant-related Megas like him. He actually is supposed to be, since he comes from a Plant line as well. He's just more concentrated on wood than some(like Cherrymon). Maybe they'll give him something like Chaosdramon for Machinedramon some day. The worst part about this is is that in the animes, Puppetmon is the one with the most characterization. He feels like he's the most deserving to get a true upgrade that matches his own body type.

Puppetmon is apparently made from Cherrymon's wood, which is represented by Cherrymon digivolving into him, naturally.

Well, according to the official profile, yes.

He's also a Plant type as well as a Puppet type. It makes sense to me entirely. It'd just be cool if he had a better Burst that was humanoid, is all I'm saying, or at least shares his body shape to some degree. The rest in Digimon Masters look like they got a natural upgrade. Puppetmon is the one left out.

Also, ironically, Ancient Troiamon is described as the largest of the Ancient Warrior Ten Digimon. Puppetmon is the smallest Dark Master by far. I'm unsure if Chaosdramon and Giga Seadramon would be smaller, though. You can't easily tell in an MMO at times. The sizes aren't extremely consistent since they have to make some things a bit smaller for the system to handle, otherwise too much on screen will lag it. Size does matter here with models.

edited 12th Apr '15 9:42:50 PM by Irene

What Puppetmon lacks in size he makes up for in evilness. No thanks to him, Mimi got thrust right back into the very same fighting she was hoping to catch a break from.

Also, consider for a moment that he was the only Dark Master to go beyond a tiny slew of episodes. He outright was manipulative, no thanks to not understanding friendship itself, which was his downfall.

I'm quite happy that the Fusion/Xros Wars version of him learned that lesson overall. It felt good seeing a "what if" here. It's just too bad we haven't seen the other 3 Dark Masters having heroic characterization at all. Metal Seadramon could come up in Tri since Michael has Betamon as a partner. The other two are harder to say.

I barely remember what Metal Seadramon was like. Puppetmon was a mix of funny and creepy, Machinedramaon was terrifying, and Piedmon was hilarious and scary.

metal Seadramon was somewhat cranky, but always rewarded his minions for doing a good job. He was also the only Data type, but still overall a bad guy, despite being somewhat of a Benevolent Boss. Piedmon didn't have any moments where he really interacted with his minions, so we have no idea if he'd easily delete/attack them for screwing up like Puppetmon or Machinedramon would.