Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Lost in Space
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You are suggesting that the alt-right, by virtue of holding a contrary opinion on those matters, inherently merits having their opinions be given the benefit of the doubt? Umm, no. It doesn't work that way. Any democracy that would entertain such ideas seriously is on its way to failure. The only proper, civil response to them is, "Get out." Engaging them only empowers them.
I failed to mention impeachment, but if he gets a Republican House and Senate, that is also vanishingly unlikely. The earliest opportunity to fix the disaster would be 2018 during the midterm elections, and you could bet that the Supreme Court (with Trump's nominee weighting it to the right) would be busily abetting the attempts to disenfranchise Democratic voters in any state where it might be possible for an electoral swing to happen.
edited 27th Sep '16 12:50:25 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Was the debate watched by the public at large in other countries? What is the feeling on how the candidates did outside the US?
A number of foreign stock and currency markets saw boosts (insofar as you limit the interpretation of that to a rough gauge of emotion) and the Mexican Peso is up.
Yes, because other countries are terrified of the prospect of a Trump-led US. They also generally believe Hillary one.
edited 27th Sep '16 12:50:45 PM by Bat178
edited 27th Sep '16 12:54:58 PM by nervmeister
V
@ Parable:
Not so much when it came to Europe — as the debate was held in the middle of the night (2-4 AM). However, in the morning the Debate was one of the top news stories.
edited 27th Sep '16 12:54:39 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
The would-be novelist
America isn't just entertaining them. And even entertaining them can cause harm as well.
Lost in Space
How do you "scrutinize" someone who believes in mass-deporting 11 million people? Who believes that blacks are subhuman? Sure, you might put them in a zoo and study them like a dangerous animal, but you don't give them a microphone and let them try to persuade people to their cause.
You say, "This idea is wrong. There is no way to make it right. Anyone who believes it is morally bankrupt." You make this the dominant conversation in your nation whenever someone brings that idea up. Thus, it shrivels and dies, or at least hides in dark places and stays out of the political spotlight.
If Trump has done one thing, it's illuminate just how many people share these deplorable (yes, I said it) views. It makes me feel a deep sense of shame in my country. The solution to that, however, is not to toss up one's hands and say, "Well, both of them are corrupt so I'm staying home."
edited 27th Sep '16 1:03:13 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Entertaining people like Trump and those in the alt-right crowd is what let people like Hitler and Ante Pavelić gain power.
edited 27th Sep '16 1:00:53 PM by SciFiSlasher
"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
No, truly abysmal economic conditions across all classes, disillusionment with democracy, and the refusal of the left and center to compromise are what put Hitler into power.
I'd sooner listen to someone who says it's "stupid" and explain why (which even you agree shouldn't be a tall order at all). Those carrying on about it being "evil" belong in the same pile as those "good Christians" who think politics should serve some heavenly bearded man in the sky.
edited 27th Sep '16 1:04:56 PM by nervmeister
The would-be novelist
Did Cassandra just said "compromise?"
Non Indicative Username
Lost in Space
The United States has nowhere near the kinds of conditions that were in place in pre-Nazi Germany. Not even close. So that cannot be the explanation for Trump's popularity.
So... I should have to explain why deporting 11 million people is wrong? Why blacks should be equal to whites? My ten-year old could tell me that — is this a kindergarten classroom or an adult conversation? That you could even say such a thing with a straight face is part of our current problem. And that isn't even getting into issues like climate policy, taxation, trade, security, and whatnot. How in the hell are we supposed to have educated debates about the Middle-East crisis when half the country thinks blocking Muslims from entering our nation is just hunky-dory?
Edited to add: My son was crying the other day because he thought that Donald Trump might throw him out of the country. We spent some time explaining that he's a naturalized citizen (we adopted him from Guatemala, and he knows it) with papers to prove it, so he wouldn't be affected. But others wouldn't be so lucky, and, given his skin color, I wouldn't put it past some overzealous Trump Stasi officer to snatch him off the street or out of school for some "enhanced interrogation".
edited 27th Sep '16 1:17:48 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Problem is that I don't think most Trump supporters are interested in having adult conversations about these things.
The fact that they're willing to let a transparently boorish idiot like Trump get into office just to make a political statement more or less proves their resentment and xenophobia matter a lot more than putting someone in office that could actually govern the country with some degree of respectability or competence.
Not to say that every single Trump supporter is a lost cause since making absolute statements like that about millions of people isn't wise, but it's difficult to have a conversation with someone who just really hates all those black and brown people because it isn't based in something rational.
edited 27th Sep '16 1:16:04 PM by Draghinazzo
edited 27th Sep '16 1:16:00 PM by nervmeister
The Mod with the Migraine
. Also, thanks for the NPR fact-checked debate transcript. Kind of glad that being on duty prevented me from watching - I might have thrown something at the tv.
That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
As a citize in a country that's lived through a military coup, let me just say that it isn't exactly a basket of roses.
Of course, the current political climate in America is different from the one of Brazil in the 1960's but I wouldn't speak lightly of that possibility all the same.
edited 27th Sep '16 1:17:24 PM by Draghinazzo
Lost in Space
I don't think any war of words will make racism go away. Ostracizing anything hard enough tends to result in even more reactionary extremists lashing out against it and it's hard to go much further without crossing civil rights lines. I mean, Germany has outlawed pretty much everything to do with the Nazis outside of a few permitted educational contexts and they still have to play whack-a-mole with neo-Nazi groups.
I don't think there's any good answer but it's probably better to focus on concrete positive steps that can heal current wounds and make new ones less likely to open. Police accountability and training. Education. The economy. Etc.
Edit to add: The NPR debate transcript for anyone who doesn't want to backtrack for it.
edited 27th Sep '16 1:27:11 PM by Elle
Wow, that celebrating Hillary's good night sure was short-lived. Now we're apparently back to hand-wringing...
No, where just back to the same roundabout philosophical debates. The debate doesn't even seem to matter anymore.
Lost in Space
The debate mattered a lot. It proved that Clinton could remain poised and optimistic and not get dragged down into the mud by Trump, and it proved that Trump simply does not have the character or intellect to hold his own against an opponent that won't let him get away with his basic scheme of lie-lie-lie. It's a triumph and should have a significant boosting effect in the polls. But it's just one debate, and we've got quite a way left to go.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The law in the night
@ Draghinazzo Don't even mention it, every time I saw people saying "military intervention now" I had an urge to hit them with a hardcover history book.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Regardless, people are still crying "doom and gloom" over it, a sentiment I've gotten really tired of really fast.
edited 27th Sep '16 1:31:23 PM by PhysicalStamina
If Trump did try issuing illegal orders there might be a chance he'd cross into "high crimes and misdemenors", the standard required for impeachment. However the impetus for that falls to Congress and will there be enough Dems + anti-Trump Republicans left to hit the 2/3rds vote needed for it?