Socialism in the US

I know a lot of Republicans and far right-wingers love to use 'socialist' as a pejorative, and it gets really annoying.

But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Sometimes, talk to self-proclaimed socialists and they seem to go on vicious America-hatefests, blaming everything on corporations and capitalism and that every single action taken by the White House and the Man must be imperialist, corporatist, or just outright evil. Not to mention having outright contempt for other Americans that don't agree with them, perceiving them as 'brainwashed'.

I guess what I want to ask is, is the off-putting behavior of some socialists to blame for getting a poor reputation in the US as much to blame as right-wing propaganda against them?

edited 9th Jul '11 2:22:38 AM by Exploder

Crazies can be found everywhere, I guess. But it's mostly the propaganda. Heck, it's probably the extreme propaganda that made the crazy socialists take on such an extreme stance.

Probably. It's the same reason I can't take conspiracy theorists seriously. I hate it when people rant about an oppressive man that they can never elaborate on, and that they think anybody who disagrees with them is brainwashed or blind.

Usaully when that kind of thing comes up I assume they are just having an ego trip about how they are smarter than everyone else for not being blind sheeple or something.

@OP: I think it's less that and more that we have a hard time differentiating between socialism and the USSR/Chairman Mao's China.

edited 9th Jul '11 2:42:59 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

Are there any real left-wingers in America? I mean, not nutjobs who've latched onto it because they think FEMA wants to eat their brains or whatever?

Talking to American (and other first-world) socialists, through all the frothing rage, basically all of them I've run into actually have quite reasonable views. I agree that most of the blame for socialism's bad rap comes from our state capitalist Cold War enemies.

What do you mean by "real left-wing"? America is pretty heavily shifted to the right, and I remember seeing somewhere that what we consider the "left" is more or less moderate to a bunch of other countries.

edited 9th Jul '11 2:52:15 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

Well, people who think that universal healthcare is a good thing, that corporations doing whatever they like is bad and that big business and the government shouldn't be basically the same people?

Then yes. People like that do exist over here (I'm one of them), but they tend to be outnumbered by the conservatives.

Historically, there was a full-on American socialist movement in the early 20th century. Eugene Debs ran for President five times between 1900 and 1920, and got significant votes.It only finally got killed off by the Cold War and Mc Carthyism.

There's quite a fierce debate among historians about why the US didn't develop a left-wing party like all the European countries, but the fact that it was a democracy (within limits) a long time before it was a modern industrial state with a working class is probably relevant.

The Cold War didn't really kill the socialist movement off. It was actually Wilson and the fallout of WWI that weakened American socialism.

Isn't love happiness socialist?

I'd probably point to FDR, since the New Deal's conciliatory nature stole so much of the socialist's thunder, while European politics by and large went hardline antisocialist in the same period.

Yes and no. Yes in that there are no real role models to look up to politically speaking. American socialists are by and large foul-mouthing hatemongers who think every single day of our existence is pure evil. (Does it mean all of them are? Of course not. But that's the vocal portion for you.)

No in the sense that other factors came into play. The Cold War drove a lot of anti-socialist rhetoric as early on there were no "socialist" powers who were anything but a totalitarian, Stalinist dictatorship devoid of personal freedom, civil liberties and economic opportunity. Actions then filled in the rest. The Great Society programs were a great indicator and spark for the anti-socialist movement in more modern times. The programs initiated under Johnson have been loaded with corruption, inefficiency, poor service, cost overruns, and have sparked a sense of dependency which clashes with the cultural norm of self-reliance in this country. Since 1980, we've seen the result of a generation of welfare moms end up with loads of drug dealers and other (often violent) criminals for children, we've seen seniors tied so much up on dependency from Social Security and Medicare that if you brought today's seniors' parents and grandparents back to life to see what their descendents would be doing a huge lot of them would disapprove of basically living off the taxpayer dime having saved no money for retirement and their own well-being.

And that's just part of the tip of the iceberg.

I'd debate the point about all other socialist powers being dictatorial hell holes. What about the European nations? They managed to get extended social protections without sacrificing political ones.

Too late to sway public opinion in the US. The Euro socialist state emerged in the 1950s. By 1949 it was too late to save public opinion of the ideology in America. (What with the 2 biggest advocates of socialism the Soviet Union and the PRC being exactly what I was saying.)

@Tom: I'd point out most of the vocal voices on the conservative side are just as much filled with rhetoric and hate.

Either way, I think the closest the majority of us lefties in the US get to socialism is people like me who believe socialism and capitalism BOTH need to be part of the design for a truly functional system.

edited 9th Jul '11 8:03:51 AM by Midgetsnowman

Sigh, there is no label, no cause, nothing so pure that you can't find less than desirable people mouthing off about it.

This has nothing to do with socialism, conservatism, any given religion or philosophy, but reflects human beings. Sometimes that corruption of an ideal can be so distorted that it's necessary to move on because people can't get past their prejudices.

But really? The seniors of yesteryear were mostly DEAD because nobody could keep them alive. Of course those who were alive seemingly did better, they were the healthy survivors. Now it's different. There's a lot of medicine available to keep people alive. I think if you really took an honest look at it, you'd be glad at being a senior today and not in days of long ago. The odds of not dying are much improved.

@Midgetsnowman You sound like a very tense man with anger issues. Like Americans hate Tingle,they won't budge for socialism. Well except for people who still advocate it to this day. If you want to be a supporter go ahead and knock your self out. But you got a point that people shouldn't demonize each other.

@Jazz: anger issues? Not really. I'm just what you could call an idealistic cynic. I Think the country could be a lot better place if people would compromise every now and then and hold on less to hate-filled ideas or beliefs that the "other side" is out to get them. However, my more cynical side always tells me "that'll never happen"

Inside every cynic is a frustrated idealist trying to break free.

Indeed, they won't budge for socialism, especially that which directly benefits them. At least as long as they know what's happening. Politicians will sell you a load of salt and claim it is sugar.

^^ Pretty much. I'm pretty much convinced the root of cynicism is being an idealist.

@Midget I'm what they call cynically idealistic.I really disagree with your point of view but your want for a better society is a noble cause.I think everyone wants what's best for society however I think for every good idea there has to be a bad idea.

You're mistaken. For every good idea there's about a dozen bad ideas.