Why do we have this?: Secrets Of German Medieval Swordsmanship

I didn't want to cut it without discussing it but... Why do we have this? It's not a work of fiction. It's not a Useful Notes for understanding works of fiction.... It's like if I made a trope page about my biology textbook or about my TV's instruction manual. Seriously, what purpose does it serve?

This does not belong on TV Tropes. This should be on Wikipedia or something.

edited 22nd Jun '11 1:50:48 AM by Ghilz

We have a whole index of Non-Fiction Literature. This is a work, it has a trope list, so it stays. Notability is not a concern.

I'd point out that if you read the nonfiction list, you;d realize these are still genres we cover (Biographies, Based on a True Story, Newshows, interview shows, game shows, etc). Stuff we cover.

This is an instruction manual on fencing. WTF does this have to do with TV Tropes. Do we cover anything we can fit tropes with? Coz I will make a page on my De Walt drill. I can probably fit a few tropes in it too!

Can I make a page on my biology textbook? On my VCR? Oh, what about the stuff in my tool box?

And I never even mentioned notability. The Ford company is notable, yet I am not arguing they should be getting a page. Notability has nothing to do with it, this just that this just doesn't seem to be something we should apply tropes to. It doesn't try to convey a story. Heck, one could argue it's not truly media to begin with, being more of an instruction tool.

edited 22nd Jun '11 2:30:13 AM by Ghilz

Page starter here.

No Such Thing As Notability.

Also, fencing is featured quite a lot in fiction, so having an example of a modern work based on a largely forgotten art isn't just tropey, but relevant when it comes to comparing Real Life and things like Flynning.

It's also a companion page to Bloßfechten, which I also started. Bloßfechten is the core of the martial art, and Secrets Of German Medieval Swordsmanship is one resource that can be used to actualise it.

As long as we're going to have a non-fiction section, why not have the Real Life equivalent of Sword Fight in there? I don't see why it's inappropriate, especially given that this kind of thing not only includes tropes, but is the basis for others. This isn't German fencing with a foil, mind you, this is knight-to-knight combat on the battlefield.

edited 22nd Jun '11 4:39:42 AM by MadassAlex

Er, we are about fiction. Not non-fiction. Notability is not the issue; we don't have articles on egg beaters or dental procedures either. Why are people adding works articles about nonfiction anyway?

edited 22nd Jun '11 6:27:46 AM by Fighteer

This isn't exactly the same. Egg-beaters and dental procedures are seldom, if ever, featured in narrative works as a decisive plot point or element. A Sword Fight is common, though, so there's merit and benefit to having an example of a work that is focused on the precise methods of the truth behind the trope.

edited 22nd Jun '11 6:39:43 AM by MadassAlex

A little correction to that. We are about storytelling. Fiction is a big application of storytelling, but not the only application.

If it has storytelling tropes, it is our meat.

How stories are told, not the stories themselves.

And yes, if there are ways that a drill uses tropes to tell the story of how to use it, a drill is a work. I would imagine a Handtools index wouldn't get a whole lot of traffic, but it would be of interest to those who are interested.

A drill or an eggbeater is not a trope, it is a work.

edited 22nd Jun '11 6:37:26 AM by FastEddie

And to elaborate a little on the above, something like the page in question is becoming more relevant as more works of fiction feature Western swordsmanship.

For the record, the mere existence of this is rather tropey in its own right. It's a real-life example of an ancient martial art drawn from the grave with a history in its own right, and in the history of martial arts development in the western world.

Huh, well, it seems kind of odd but as long as there is some kind of storytelling occurring I suppose it's as legit a work article as any other.

If it makes it any better, I'll add some tropes to it over the next couple of days relating to its historical merit and the the nature of its own subplot as part of that.

A swordfight is story. It has a beginning, middle, end and consequences. That makes it a work.

It is also used for storytelling purposes, which makes it a trope, as well.

The article being discussed here is about how to tell the story of a swordfight.

Motion to remove non fiction works?well I wouldn't miss them...much. It'd be a great excuse to get rid of actor pages.

Maybe give non fiction its own split like the Sugar Wiki or useful notes?

Motion to keep non-fiction works as things like October Sky are still works and still have narrative even if they're about things that actually happened.

edited 22nd Jun '11 11:47:28 AM by shimaspawn

Another vote to keep nonfiction.

Oh, definitely keep nonfiction. I was more concerned about the value of this as a work - an instruction manual is not really tropable but I see that it does have a lot more to it than that.

I am not saying that nonfiction should be removed, far from it. Nor thst swordfights aren't stories. What I question is the value of this particular work.

A book listing actual historical swordfights and describing them would totally fit TV Tropes. But this is a book telling how to make them...

To me it's like (going back to the drill example), the difference between a renovation show like Trading Spaces (which is nonfiction, and has a story), and a drill's instruction manual (also nonfiction, doesn't have a story). One tells you how to make the other happen. But it's not a story on its own.

Perhaps the book's content could be summarized, and made into a Useful Notes, which would seem far more appopriate for the site, than a page on the book itself?

We have a page for The Art Of War. I fail to see what is the difference between one book and the other (aside "notability", that is it).

More important, is this page hurting the wiki in any way? Will we gain anything deleting it?

edited 22nd Jun '11 2:26:30 PM by Heatth

The Art Of War is a book that gets quoted, shown, or presented in countless work. Really, it's practically a trope on it's own, like Adolf Hitler.

edited 22nd Jun '11 2:34:57 PM by Ghilz

Yet, The Art Of War page is not written as a trope, but as a work. Unlike Adolf Hitler page, The Art Of War don't list examples of work that use The Art Of War, but, instead, the tropes used in The Art Of War itself.

So, move this page to Literature, where it should be,and let it go. Cutting it because it's in the wrong namespace, instead of moving it, is petty.

edited 22nd Jun '11 2:39:47 PM by Madrugada

That'd pretty much be stealing, and a Useful Notes page on swordsmanship wouldn't adequately represent fencing as a whole if it just had the content from one manual based on a 15th century text based on a 14th century text. Besides, there's a page with some basic instructions anyway.

Getting off-topic, but arguably the current page should be moved to Literature/TheArtOfWar and Main/TheArtOfWar should be a page listing works which use or reference the book.