Who Cares About Men's Rights?

What rights?

Also, then why call it "mens's rights" if it's all about taking away certain rights of women?

Huh? What derail? I mean aside from obvious short derail about lesbian separatism, I really don't see anything else.

edited 11th Jun '11 4:42:22 AM by LoveHappiness

I don't want to start this discussion here again, let's just say it's about reverse discrimination and extreme political correctness and live it be, OK? There are other threads to discuss those, let's not derail here

"Yeah, and what's with all those jerkoffs researching new flu vaccines when people still get cancer?" - Karalora

Well, I do think funding for a medical problem should be proportional to the harm it causes. So yeah, if someone funded less necessary research instead of the more necessary research, and hid behind the "I don't have to justify myself" argument when called out on it, I would be inclined to doubt the intentions of said person.

However, that is a case of different problems not quite along the same line. These ARE along the same line.

after poking my head in, I just want to say, thank you for brining this up. being a tough guy is alot harder then it seems. there are many times in which I'm expected to deal with this that I just can't. I may be a guy, but I'm no hercules, and I don't like the fact that I get singled out to do all the toughest jobs at my work place just because I'm a young male who actually gives a shit about keeping my job. there are probably older, more capable men, and even WOMEN out there who are in better shape then me and probably would work smarter than I ever could, but I'm expected to do it anyways.

same goes for being at home, or even social interactions. when a potentially dangerous job comes around with any significant risk of injury or worse, I'm gonna be expected to be there, regardless of my skills, experience, or capability. I'f I have a problem (as a matter of fact, I have a rather big issue with jealousy that I'm dealing with) I'm expected to deal with it on my own. I'm sure lots of guys have had to deal with that.

now, there's a really good argument for saying that men enforce this behavior on each other, but it's more than just that. it's society as a whole. it's nothing more than dressed up stereotypes. we put this ideal of what a man and women are supposed to be up on a pedestal that no one can live up to, and everyone is worse off for it.

to summarize, I'm glad this topic is brought up, because it DOES go both ways. I'm not making light of neither men's nor women's rights. but if there's going to be progress, boths sides need to admit that we are both hurting, and if we tried, we could help improve each other's lot.

edited 11th Jun '11 6:46:10 AM by Dynamod

"What rights of men in specific should we have that we don't have already? Suggestions?" - Love Happiness

At the very least, a bit more consideration to the double standards against men, especially the severe ones like those in the context of poverty and domestic abuse. I would think you of all people would realize this just looking at the various gender issue discussions on this site.

"What's so misandric about that? It would certainly solve all those problems men have with getting laid...!" - Mostly Benign

Be Careful What You Wish For. From what I have heard, there are millions of sperm cells per ejaculation. If reproduction is the issue, then sex probably would not be the most efficient way to use the sperm for it. I would think it would be much more efficient to make guys ejaculate into a container of some sort, and then have some machine shoot the sperm cells one at a time into different women.

Probably sounds like something out of a hentai manga, but that alone would not imply it to be unrealistic.

"now, there's a really good argument for saying that men enforce this behavior on each other" - Dynamod

How strong that argument is depends on the particular double standard in question. At the very least, there are plenty of double standards that women (on average, not all) seem to go along with, if not support. (Ones in the context of domestic abuse especially come to mind.)

edited 11th Jun '11 7:04:49 AM by neoYTPism

I thought my original comment was decently funny, but you got me beat.

The reason why males produce so much sperm cells at once is because the fatality rate of a sperm is extremely high. The majority of sperm get killed off by the female immune system, or by the acidic environment of the vagina, or by being blocked by the cervix, or go up the wrong fallopian tube, or get caught in the cilia current of the fallopian tube, etc.

Out of the 500 million sperm that get ejaculated, only about fifty make it to the egg*

In all her talk about feeling sorry for men who don't measure up she doesn't dream of the fact that even those who don't measure up might regard her as a threat. Maybe a given guy is timid, and shy and maybe he is even a Nice Guy who does not buy into the A Real Man Is An Oaf thing. But has she ever figured out that she is even so, threatening his sense of identity. Might he not like the archetype of masculinity equals badassery even if he is not a badass and not consider her offer of bland egalitarianism worth the price she asks even if it makes less demands on him? Even if he thinks her demands are just(YMMV) does she ever feel sorry for those who simply don't like agreeing with them whether or not they do?

That is why I dismiss her. She only cares about men who agree with her in every possible way.

edited 11th Jun '11 10:13:30 AM by jatay3

As I understand it, she does not feel sorry for men who "don't measure up". She feels sorry for men who get thought badly of because they don't fit into the rather narrow ideal of standard "manliness".

If a guy is timid and shy, well, whatever — if he is happy with himself, that's enough. If one is boisterous and aggressive, whatever the same — as long as they do not hurt anyone else, that's not a problem.

Admiring "badassery", no matter if one measures up to it or not, is not a problem. But thinking badly of other guys, or making other guys feel bad, because they do not buy into the same ideal, is a whole different matter.

To make one example, it is true that domestic violence of women towards men is underreported. But this is not because of eeeevil feminists; that's because a man who reports a domestic crime against himself would be considered a wuss who lets his own wife beat him up, and more deserving of scorn than of help and pity.

edited 11th Jun '11 11:26:51 AM by Carciofus

yeah, and thats just it. it's a sort of self-enforced handicap. we've all got this legacy in our heads of how everyone expects us to behave. it's just awful. take your example for instance. should the guy report the abuse, he'll most definitely be looked down on my his spouse, and his drinking buddies will definitely prod him about it later. but who knows? maybe all his drinking buddies might herald him as a champion of battered husbands. he wouldn't know unless he reported the crime. the odds are though that he wont, because he believes that's what he's suppose to do. Tough guys don't tattle on their wives for "rough housing."

"that's because a man who reports a domestic crime against himself would be considered a wuss who lets his own wife beat him up, and more deserving of scorn than of help and pity." - Carciofus

Not quite just that. A lot of people assume that he must have done something to deserve it.

I totally agree with the blog post linked, but I want to say to DG and neo that plenty of other feminists care about men's rights. They don't usually pay as much attention to men's rights as they pay to women's rights, but I think it's unreasonable to expect that.

But seriously, nearly every feminist blog I've ever seen, even the radfem ones I disagree with, has had at least one post about "rape of men is bad, mmkay?". Every feminist blog I've ever seen, period, has had at least one "feminism helps men too" post. Sometimes the point of this is "and could you MRA people in the comments shut up about it already?", and that's regrettable, but I've never come across a feminist who legitimately hates men or even disagrees that men have issues too NB

Maybe I'm just being overly Cis-Gendered Homosexual here, but I find the whole debacle of gender issues and cultural separation of the sexes to be incredibly banal. What's the big deal? Some women Work on Motorcycles, Others stay at home with the kids, some Join the military. So Do Guys. I fail to see the big issue here.

The author of that post, along with a bunch of other bloggers, has split off an entire blog about it.

And I must say, their FAQ is the best introduction to feminism I've ever seen.

@Lanceleoghauni

The problem is that unfortunately, such attitude have not become common yet, and society continues to see difference

edited 21st Jun '11 10:54:41 AM by Beholderess

Thank you for linking that. I usually feel drowned by blogs about serious issues, but that one was so nice and mostly free of drama.

Why, oh why every talk about "ableist language" and how such words should be banned sparks my rage like so?

Honestly I agree "lame" is too low to set the bar.

But if we're dealing with things that haven't gone all the way through the euphemism treadmill, it doesn't hurt you at all to be nice.

Men's rights is a fucking joke.

Then conscription in some European countries is a-OK with you, cause men's rights are a joke?

Is it OK to press men into service? To put them in harm's way against their will?

I think sexism against men and sexism against women is very interlinked, you're going to end up helping both when you try and help one, I think, it works both ways, with stereotypes particularly.

That's true. Still, sometimes unfortunately awareness must be raised first that there is such a thing as sexism against men at all.

The compulsory conscription is a relic created by men for men, and it's mostly men who wish to uphold it. Soooo it's really not very constructive to whine at women about it - there's not a whole lot we can do when it's 90% men keeping that particular structure up.

Conscript the women too. Lousy freeloaders.

Yeah, a lot of the problems we're talking about here stem from the nature of masculinity in our society, and that we perceive it to be dominant (and that we're happy about it). And they're real problems. It's just...

Well, there's enough vocal people out there who want feminists to shut up about feminist issues until their issues are solved and taken care of. It's a real This is why we can't have nice things type situation.

Or in short, don't be pissed at the people stepping around the poisoned ground, be pissed at the people who poisoned the ground in the first place.