Is this trope about the devil's name, or simply the devil being there?: Louis Cypher

Louis Cypher feels like it had its definition awkwardly changed at some point in the past. The redirects are all for a trope about "the devil uses a nickname that subtly hints at his true identity"; that's what the trope name itself suggests, and most of the description is devoted to talk about the sorts of nicknames the devil uses in fiction. Lots of examples seem to be written with the assumption that this is a trope about the devil using a pseudonym that hints at his true identity, too, focusing on the name above everything else. And that's what the laconic version says.

But the first paragraph implies that it's just a trope for "any situation where the devil is there without revealing himself, period, under any sort of name" and many of the examples don't have names that hint at his true identity.

Should it be split? Fixed in some other way?

edited 6th Jun '11 12:32:43 PM by Aquillion

Look up the definition of 'incognito'.

It doesn't have to be transparent.

Laconic: Satan in disguise, using an alias that hints at his true identity.

Lou from Guitar Hero counts. Natasha from Incarnations Of Immortality as well, even though it's not very obvious.

edited 6th Jun '11 10:14:31 AM by savage

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Agreed. This is about "The Devil in Disguise", to quote one Mr Presley, although the description does make the point that the aliases used are often pretty obvious ones (perhaps because Viewers Are Morons). I think the main problem with this page is some natter, which I will have a go at editing later on if I have a spare moment.

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

I suspect it's less that the author thinks Viewers Are Morons and more that the author wants a chance to work in a terrible pun.

Fight smart, not fair.

You misunderstand. The problem isn't 'not transparent', the problem is 'not hinting that it is the devil at all, in any way.'

Read the first two paragraphs — they say nothing about names. The trope they describe is "the devil is present incognito, period." Going by the description, say, a work where the Devil goes by the name "John Smith" would satisfy (and several examples in there are similar.)

The trope's first paragraph isn't clear on whether it's just "the Devil is there, under a false name (and any false name qualifies)" or "the Devil is there under a false name that, in some fashion, hints at his true identity."

My understanding is that it was intended to be the former, and the trope's names, laconic, etc. support this, but the first two paragraphs describe the latter — they make no mention of names at all. And this has resulted in a lot of examples that don't have significant names.

From the examples, say:

Xellos

Ronnie Sukiart

Colin Thornton

The Showman

Etc, etc. Should those be removed? Should the first paragraph be rewritten to make it clear that this only encompasses situations where the devil uses a name that hints at his true identity?

So do you think the laconic version is wrong when it says that this is about the devil "using a nickname that hints at his true identity?"

I think that "the Devil using a nickname that hints at his true identity" is a real trope, and if this isn't that, we should create a page for it. If this is that, it needs serious overhaul and cleanup, because (as your confusion shows) the description doesn't make it clear, and many examples have followed that.

edited 6th Jun '11 12:37:55 PM by Aquillion

Which definition is better-supported by usage? Do we have any other tropes that cover one of the variations? Is this a supertrope-subtrope situation?

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Actually, on re-reading this I think the OP has a point - there do seem to be two tropes going on here. There's one where Satan or some other evil deity/demon is in disguise (probably the supertrope) and another where he's in disguise under a name alluding to his true identity. It's difficult to say which this was meant to be, but most of the examples seem to follow the "obvious name" route and that is the laconic.

Perhaps we should take those that don't and use them for the supertrope. You could even call that "The Devil In Disguise."

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

captainbrass2's reading of it squares with mine, and I support his suggestion to split off "The Devil is present and in disguise..." and keep Louis Cypher for the subtrope of "...and uses a name that could or should be a tip-off."

edited 6th Jun '11 4:02:02 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Agreed. Louis Cypher makes sense as meaning when Satan uses a name that hints at his true identity, but for the supertrope... something like Devil in Disguise would work out better.

Hmm. "Obvious name" was my reading of it as well (I added "Lew Siffer" from the Chick Tract "Angels" fairly early on, if not in YKTTW), but those problematic paragraphs are also in the Internet Archive's oldest version of it, where they take up a larger proportion of the description. It did go through YKTTW, but it appears to have been chewed up by the Great Crash, and its original title was "Allow me to introduce myself", which would better fit the problematic paragraphs. It wouldn't be the first time a trope's title completely overshadowed its intended meaning...

edited 2nd Sep '11 8:16:49 AM by MorganWick

Sometimes with works, it feels like the only clear way to be able to say that the guy is the devil is because of the not-quite-subtle name and style hints. Otherwise it would just be Robert De Niro being all weird. Hence the blending of the trope ideas, I would guess.

Somebody read the examples and actually confirm this please.

Here's the example used in Ace Combat Zero. I think it's mostly played as an Informed Attribute since you play an AFGNCAAP.

You play as a pilot by the codename Cipher, leader of the Garm Team, Ustio 6th Air Division, 66th Squadron. Over the course of the game, your actions in the war earn you the respected nickname of the Demon Lord of the Round Table.

It combines both Demonic and Arthurian overtones for the story.

edited 2nd Sep '11 9:42:09 AM by DRCEQ

Yeah, Louis Cypher needs the hint part, Xellos etc. wouldn't count.

Death is a companion. We should cherish Death as we cherish Life.

Mind if I YKTTW that supertrope?

Not all. Please do. We're missing a lot of supertropes.

edited 2nd Sep '11 10:03:15 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

The YKTTW is here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=iqgrruw157ykxn2ws5495vtx

Feel free to help out.

Deadlock clock set by request.

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This is done, isn't it?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Slightly tangential, but what about characters who aren't the actual devil, but have a "demonic" name?

E Gs: Le Chiffre in Casino Royale, Mr DeVille in A Life Less Ordinary and Cruella De Vil in 101Dalmatians?

If we're splitting to two tropes, one about the Devil in Disguise and one about demonic-sounding names, the latter could lose the requirement to actually be the Devil.

If we don't do that, maybe put a note in the description of Louis Cypher that the character should be at least implied to be the devil, and if not the example should go on Names to Run Away from Really Fast.

EDIT: Just found Demons or Angels, so I'll do that last bit.

edited 9th Nov '11 9:29:55 AM by johnnye

The split is based on whether the devil is trying to hide who he is (is in disguise) or if he wants you to figure it out (obvious name, such as Louise Cypher for Lucifer).

That's what I said.

edited 10th Nov '11 3:17:34 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I thought this trope meant he was in disguise, but with a name that hinted at his true identity.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:58:03 PM by tropetown

That'd be more under Names to Run Away from Really Fast.

Also, I suppose I should have mentioned this earlier, but the Super-Trope has been launched.

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