Does a such thing as a Mongoloid, Caucasoid, or Negroid skull exist?

I notice every discussion about race seems to come back to some sorts of rock paper scissors. I made a topic a long time back at My Anime List, saying I thought the American terms for race were a bit silly and pointless, and needed to be done away with, leading to some things that eventually led to my falling apart mental state now. But that's another story for another day.

Anyway, in response, someone, one of the few sadly that defended me that terms like "Asian" or "Black" were definitely not good for race, when there are people in Southeast Asia who are indistinguishable from "black" Americans, and West and North and sometimes even South Asians(Indians) who are indistinguishable from any Europeans. This person said, "well, yeah, just because someone is Asian does not mean they have a Mongoloid skull. And it might be unfair to lock people in with a term like yellow just because they have a mongoloid skull, or a location like asia just because they have yellow-ish skin.

That brought back a lot more reading I had about race a lot back similar to the thread I had made now. That Mongoloid, Caucasoid and Negroid skulls do not existed, and are just an outdated psuedoscience just like phrenology. I'm about tired of having an opinion on any of this. So I would argue to me, most specifically in this thread, not whether white or black or yellow or hispanic are good terms for race, but whether a such thing as a Caucasoid or Mongoloid or Negroid skull exists and/or not and why.

I guess the skulls exist in the same was as adult skulls, baby skulls or adolescents skulls exist.
Besides, a mans skull is different from another mans skull. We should call it "that mans skull" and "that other mans skull".
Besides, there are most likely a few minor skull difference due the general genetic variation in a area, yet that does not have to be true.
Besides, we have to "draw the line" somewhere, because pointing at several sliding without any values at them is pointless. At the least for us humans.
Now, where we draw those lines can be silly and pointless.

See this Wikipedia article. In short, one can have some success identifying broad racial groups by skull features, but it's by no means exact and is prone to error.

'Race' is as much a social construct as a physical difference, after all; and given human ability to migrate, and no physical barriers to fertility between historically geographically separated groups, it cannot be more than that.

I am, though, a little bothered by how much you are round-in-circles obsessing about this (this thread being only the latest in a long line of your postings about racial and ethnic topics).

Mostly agree with Morven, but whether or not they exist, these seem like rather dangerously inflammatory terms to use, since they're strongly associated with a pseudoscientific theory which made some very nasty assumptions.

Hence why I said in one of my first threads related or similar to the subject, that talking and thinking about race is a pox upon humanity, and I never wanted to think about it again. Talking about race leads to the sort of indescribable pain I am currently in. Always thinking to re-adjust myself or atone myself or re-examine my life to fit what I "should" to in terms of race.

The subject of race is morally loaded, painful contrasting crud that does the opposite of stop racism and bring people together. How very ironic that I was recently told that I was being delusional to think that talking about race is a bad idea, and now I'm essentially being told "hey, it worries me that you're talking about race". No, I don't like talking about race. It has caused my mental health to continually go further and further down since 2006. If it wasn't for the fact I've become addicted to the internet, and the people on the internet seem to love racializing everything and talking about it so much, the subject being almost unavoidlable in any youtube video comments section, my mind is slipping away from me.

Though I listened to y'all's advice, saying that avoiding the subject of race is never good. So I thought I would get some clarity.

I've never heard of this this "Mongoloid" or "Congoloid", etc skull thing before it does sound rather silly. There have been far many different sorts of features that have come up in discussions in terms of "race" that I've had or overheard but "skull" was never one of them.

Also, talking about race is not a bad thing and ignoring it won't just make it go away, it'll just make it smaller and more insidious and when the issue actually does come up and it's legitimate people will just go "Oh you silly willy, that's the old days. that never happens now."

edited 16th May '11 1:57:04 PM by MousaThe14

I think I've found your problem.

Incidentally, I remember this skulls subject coming up in a discussion with you once before. Did you see my reply then? (Apologies if you did, just figured it might be relevant if it was something you hadn't considered.)

Skulls are fairly common in this stuff. They show less subtle differences than in other bones. Plus, phrenology.

Well, there are some skull features that are more prevalent on people from certain ethnicities. AFAIK, it is not exact.

@Ukonkivi: Stop reading youtube comments. Seriously. There is no point to it. All it is is a contest to see who can say the most stupid, offensive, ill-thought-out piece of idiocy imaginable. I have almost never seen a comment there that conveyed anything useful whatsoever.

Your obsessing about the topic doesn't bother me for me; it bothers me that you are putting yourself through this torment. It bothers me because it is not good for you and you keep bashing your head against that wall, visibly and bloodily. Worse, because you seem driven to take notice of only what the offensive, stupid people say yet you ignore the advice of those who don't say those stupid things. Why do you take idle, offensive comments from racist idiots on the Internet so seriously yet you don't listen to the sane, sensible people?

Skulls for the skull throne!

It sounds like you've stumbled upon either trolls, or fools.

edited 16th May '11 2:09:57 PM by mailedbypostman

^ The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Hold the phone...

edited 16th May '11 2:16:25 PM by MousaThe14

Youtube comments and outdated theories on race aside, I think a more reliable way to find divisions in the human genealogy is to trace the paths of human migration through the world, and through time.

edited 16th May '11 2:54:42 PM by annebeeche

Obviously it exists, or else forensic facial reconstruction wouldn't work. which it does quite well.

But where else can I watch videos of people hurting themselves in humorous fashion?

And with cats

And cats hurting people. Or other cute fuzzy things doing silly stuff.

Watch the videos. Don't read the comments.

Ukon: You've been told a hundred times that if you want these things to stop plaguing you, stop reading about them.

People in general don't make a point of blabbing about race unless you're in a place designed to babble about race. For fuck's sake, if you don't want to get burned, stop putting your hand on the stove.

Moussa: I get where you're coming from, but Ukon here has a problem. A serious, mental problem. To help himself, he needs to stay the fuck away from all the rubbish he constantly watches and reads and listens to.

edited 16th May '11 3:33:24 PM by Diamonnes

I finally got away from dial-up several years ago as a graduation present from my parents along with them helping to pay for my sister city trip to Japan. We have a Sister City that I got invovled in and is probably an influence as to why I am so interested in Japanese culture, we don't have a Sister City other than in Japan, so I dedicated a lot of my life to understanding Japanese culture better.

When I got back, I was such a "weeaboo" from my good time and wishing the trip wasn't over, I immediately went in search of places to learn more about Japanese culture and prepare for a possible trip back. One of them, was the Japan New Site Japan Today, and I eventually joined the forum. And my mind has been on the downside ever since, and if feels like the internet is using me instead of me using it, like I once was to further my Japanese cultural goals. Because it turns out, instead of getting myself enriched in postive Japanese culture there, my mind became trolled into destruction and dependence. As the forum was a Wretched Hive of race trolls, so much that they created a "racial superiority/inferiority" section as a sink for all the frequent racist posts that made that site a hell for anyone. You couldn't even imply there was something good about the Ainu or the Jomon era of Japan without being labeled a white supremacist. I searched for other sites to help me with my Japanese studying, sister city supporting, Japanophilic mentality, and it kept happening. Everywhere and everywhere, on Japanese related sites and not. Surprisingly, probably more often in Japan related sites.

If you want immersion learn by watching the tv and listening to their music, sites like Jpopmusic.com has people like ga_bu who is a racist Asian American troll living in Japan, who absolutely butchers white members for their Asian-ness in behaviour. 4chan is one of the most racist places on the internet, probably guilty of spreading racism to a lot of other sites. One could almost mistake the theme of that site to not be otaku-oriented Japanese culture, but of White Nationalism. Does the wish go on and on? I wish it didn't. Being here at TV Tropes has been part of the lamentable internet addictive I've gained by continually searching for a place online where I can hold my peace of mind. I'm broken. It's dramatic and "emo" sounding to say, but I feel I have been breaking more and more with every year since 2006 at least.

I wanted to learn Japanese and see my homestay family again when I was an 18 year old in 2004. What do I have to show for it that I have come to the internet? I can't even try studying Japanese without putting the book down and breaking down into tears. And a Last.fm account with too many plays and littered comments telling me things like "you'd better be Asian. Because otherwise you're the biggest weeaboo I've ever met."

In recent year I'd mental broken down so much from it all, not only did I stop learning Japanese, I took back up anime after several years of not watching it, and started getting involved in arguments about religion and sexism and homosexuality to take my mind away from it. And it'd been successful to balance myself and bring back some sanity and happiness until just recently. I'm practically a shell of who I once was, and even that shell is breaking apart and growing mold. I hardly even know what I want to do with my life anymore and what I can excuse my life for doing, because it seems like in every path I take I am defeated. Defeated by my own mind heeding the negative energy of others. Learning Japanese, learning Finnish, learning any other language, being attracted to Easterners, Westerners, men, women, blacks, foreigners, countrymen, fictional, real, trying new foods, playing video games, watching anime, watching animation at all, anything that I can remotely manage to be able to come to love, it all seems pointless. Thousands upon thousands of interests and I can't even manage to settle upon accepting one. Switching from thing to thing as an escape rope so that my mind can tell myself I'm a varied enough human and that all of the things I like are okay. Because I continually run from things I like when my mind hits the danger zone. Someone was telling me to broaden my horizons, I'm not sure I can broaden myself much more at this point without my mind falling apart and losing my sense of self and essence. Because I'm trying to stretch myself out to new things every day, often forcefully so.

I'm not sure it is that I ignore the sane people and pay attention to the sane people. I think that I pay attention to them both equally, and I cannot seem to sift out the derisive voices. Or rather, maybe my mind pays attention to them more because they're more painful, it makes me feel surrounded by a reality of a cultural opinion that will go away. Something that is not objectively true, but is culturally true, that who I am is unacceptable, that every last desire of mine is unacceptable. And that the happy voices I tell myself are a delusion to excuse and justify myself. I don't have the confidence to believe in myself, and instead there is a voice inside, mimicking every troll and cruel human, saying "you're just lying to yourself, you pathetic weeaboo. Look at you try to justify your sick Jewish behavior. You're so pathetic. Can't you just stop ignoring this truth you know is true and stop doing chinky, faggy things? You're worthless. You're so pathetic you don't even realize you're just justifying and rationalizing worthless behavior and desires. We're never going to disappear, you're alone in the world. You're an aberation. Just die, you're a burden upon the whole world. You're an Autismal fuck and failure to your race." It's also I think that I've become accustomed to hearing this sort of thing. I hear derisive voices more often than complementary ones. It's conditioned me to do things like suspect people will secretly or not so secretly hate me for being a "weeaboo" or whatever else. Making me feel alone in the world.

Like I said, you're going to the wrong places and don't seem to want to stop.

No one can help you if you don't sit back and take a moment to bleeding think.

Stop. What you're doing? Stop it. Just quit. Don't fucking do it.

Don't go to places notorious for racism.

Don't intentionally, knowledgeably read the utter shit you read KNOWING IN ADVANCE what it's probably going to say.

You're a human, Ukon, humans have the capacity to learn. If you'd just use the ability your life would be so much better.

Seriously. Don't be such an emotional creature.

edited 16th May '11 3:43:09 PM by Diamonnes

Ukonkivi, those people are trolls. You said it yourself. Hell, I bet half of them aren't even real white supremacists.

It doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter, what race you are. Stop making such a big deal about it and just do the things you like to do and like the things you like, without worrying about whether it's appropriate for your race. I can almost guarantee you'll be much happier that way.

As a side note, do you want me to change the thread title? The topic doesn't appear to be skulls anymore.

Listen man, if something makes you happy, then you don't stop doing just because of morons on the internet. There's nothing wrong with liking or getting engrossed in various cultures, as long as you don't start thinking any one culture is superior to the rest.

I have a friend who's living in Japan right now. Is she a weeaboo? No. She's with the military.

But in order for her to do anything in the city she's living in, she has to learn the local culture and language. It's a practical matter.

If you want to live in Japan or get a job in Japan, you're going to have to learn the culture and language. Just don't start thinking that Japanese culture is inherently superior, or fall into the mentality of "It came from Japan, therefore it's awesome!"

Look at the morons online, they're doing the same thing only the other way around. They're going "Fuck yeah America! We're tops and the rest of you are shit!" which is just as terrible.

Bobby: Honestly, I don't see this going anywhere besides a dismal Wall of Text. Ukon's been told (as you know) several times the solution to his problem. Perhaps a threadlock is the best solution?