Animal rights

I'd hesitate to apply this argument universally, given that we have the Arabian people as an example of a nation that gave up a specific kind of food that was until then part and parcel of their culture — namely, wine (and by proxy, alcohol). Today, the only alchohol you could find in the region is whatever stuff that underground criminal rings manage to produce for a clientele that only forms a tiny minority of the local populations, most of which are either founded or mainly run by foreign immigrants, and these keep getting busted rather regularly. It's pretty much like illegal drugs: Not part of the mainstream culture in any way.

That said, the argument in general is well-founded; food that is heavily entrenched in a culture is extremely hard to phase out within a short period of time. You'd have better luck working on that at a slow pace measured in decades if you're lucky, centuries if you're not.

Well, that's probably why a portion of the abolitionists take a more gradual, long-term approach to their activism. No idea if they do comprehend just how slow they need to go if they want to avoid worldwide economic calamity, though. Or if they appreciate just how much the agricultural sector needs to grow to compensate for the meat-producing industry's share of the protein sources, and whether it's actually feasible to develop said sector to such levels.

Are we talking immediate-abolitionism, or abolitionism in general? Because the latter seems to be the traditional position of animal rights, while the former indeed seems to be held by just a minority of extremists.

edited 13th Jan '15 11:15:24 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

So... Back to animal welfare and rights. What are other arguments and counter-arguments to abolitionism are there to tackle, Aszur?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Goodness, i do not know.

Well there is the suffering of animals as a thing that people say "We have no right to cause". While not an outright "necesary evil" it is something unavoidable. For the previously concerted reasons we will not likely stop killing animals soon, and animals are even less likely to stop killing each other too. the best we can do is to see how humanely we can do it in the case we do have to do it.

Cruelty and such is something that would be great to have regularized. Some videos people have tried to make me see of how some livestock animals are treated in china i think was it or some other place. ugh. Couldnt stand more than a minute of it. I threw up.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

One argument that comes up against abolitionism is that an animal which lives a happy life (until it is slaughtered in a humane manner) is better of than one that has no life at all. Though it's a controversial argument.

Though there is also always the population control argument, that some animals needs to be kept under control for our own well being and that it would be wasteful to not eat to by products of such population control.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

What a silly derail that was. Remember that this is OTC.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

For what I understand, though, it takes a lot less space, as in physical space, of crops-to-cattle ratio. So that might be in favor of abolitionism.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Yeah I doubt people as a whole will stop eating meat altogether, at least not in the foreseeable future (maybe human evolution go could go different direction in the distant future). IIRC vegetarianism is becoming more common, but meat is a big part of human culture and relying on moral arguments alone to convince people simply won't work. At least, not everyone.

However my biggest hope is that within 50-100 years (maybe sooner, or later, time-frame isn't really important in the big scheme of things) is that in vitro meat might eventually become cheaper than animal-derived meats and just as good , and through pure capitalism people would voluntarily become "vegetarians". I also figure ethical vegetarianism will seem a little more palatable. Kind of a 'win-win' for everyone.

One problem with that scenario is that it assumes with no foundation that animal-derived meat production technology won't become increase in efficiency as well. It's like the assumption that Impossibly Graceful Giant mecha technology wouldn't be applied to wheeled and tracked vehicles as well (e.g. suspensions).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I am not sure that genetically engineered meat would be welcomed by the people. I imagine outcries would be immediate as for those claiming that every meal be labeled as if it comes from real or fake sources, an I can really only see it used in places with famine problems that would have no choice but.

Something about human behavior tells me that even in that case of cloned meat they would not accept it so readily.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

With all the concern about the safety of meat (completely legitimate, the massively crowded conditions and overuse of antibiotics make it perfect for disease), I figure the advertisements for lab-grown meat would kind of speak for themselves.

And personally, being disgusted by the idea of lab-grown meat makes zero sense to me, where do people think normal meat comes from?

People don't think. They feel. They will reject it just like they reject geneticaly modified food now.

This is not regarding eating animals. It is a whole other topic. The subject of animal abuse.

Most people hear of Costa Rica and think "Wait, isn't that like the 51st state of the U.S?" and that is actually Puerto Rico. For people who know a bit more of it, they might regard it as some sort of tropical paradise. For example in the movie Jurassic Park, the capital San Jose is depicted as tropical paradise with view to the ocean. Nevermind the fact San Jose in in the middle of a basin, surrounded by mountains, and with no beach in sight

The Flora and Fauna of Costa Rica is something well known, and our culture has led us to respect it...to varying levels but mostly good ones. Sometimes, these levels are borderline silly, if heartwarming.

One of the animals that even appeared in our money is the colorful keel-billed toucan. But not even this country with a culture that would allow such a thing is exempt from things like animal abuse. In the town of Grecia, there is a keel-billed Toucan that is friendly to the locals, as they feed him, pet him and the Toucan has learned not to fear humans. So it did not fly away when a group of teenagers savaged him with a stick causing him to lose 50% of its upper beak. The spokesman of the bird refuge said it will never regrow.

This case brought to attention that even we did not have laws to penalize such a thing, and the lawmakers were urged to pas the law introduced last december that would allow to criminalize and penalize the mistreatment of animals with fines and one to six years of prison (not enough, IMO).

Despite the tragedy, an Indiegogo campaign raised $6459 dollars to get the unofficial town pet a prosthetic beak, its goal being $5000 which was reached in less than 48 hours.

More countries, even this one, need the tools to penalize this sort of appaling behavior. That it was not present already is downright nasty. The fact that people here were willing to save that toucan was heartwarming but the fact it happened in the first place is a tragedy that should not be forgotten.

I will provide a link to the news (In English) but bear in mind it has a picture of the wounded toucan

News in English here

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

... WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY WANT TO DO THAT?! Seriously, that's just disgustingly and senselessly barbaric. Reminds me of this one case here in Saudi Arabia where a bunch of low-teens kids decided that it would make them Totally Super-Cool if they break the legs of a stray dog, then run over its lower body with a car time and time again while listening to its vocalizations of anguish, video-tape the whole thing and then upload it to Youtube.

Mistake #1: They didn't bother to hide their faces. At all.

Mistake #2: The car's license plate was very, very, very visible.

Mistake #3: They assumed that the government wouldn't bother to move a muscle to arrest people for torturing a dog. Why? "Because it's just a dog! Arrest us for torturing a dog? What are you, an idiot?!"

There's plain speciesism/anthropocentrism, and then there's this.

edited 15th Jan '15 9:47:38 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I hope those kids had what was coming to them. Jesus christ what a bunch of fuckers.

Reminds me of the case where an idiot "hunter" killed, decapitated, and bragged about killing a nearly endangered animal: A panther. He posted about it on Facebook

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Layman with very little knowledge reporting in.

China, as most know, doesn't have any laws for animal rights. As a result, I've seen fish being sold in small water bags as keychains and dogs beaten up for political advocacy. A Chinese governor somewhere denounced animal rights laws as "Western trash" since animals apparently aren't sentient like humans.

I'm in support of animal rights, but I'm also fine with eating meat. After all, animals eat other animals sometimes too.

I just found out about the Pet section in The Red Stapler page.

I didn't even know about the Finding Nemo Tetra boycott.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.

Then you're just like me, a non-abolitionist animal welfarist.

Too Dumb to Live, much? You'd think a major company would be smarter than that.

edited 16th Jan '15 12:52:45 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

How do we handle the rights of animals that are sentient such as elephants?

Presenting!

What makes an elephant more sentient than other animals, if I may ask?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes