Anime/CLANNAD

That's exactly what I think. Have her survive and keep the development meaningful. And something you didn't say but is something I'm going to add is or don't tell After Story at all. At least not post Nagisa.

After Story was the entire point of CLANNAD though. Literally the whole process of the School Life arc (both in the VN and in the anime) was to prepare for After Story.

Then have it written differently. Killing off Nagisa, going through an extended arc and then just wiping that all out of existence is stupid. Either she doesn't die or she doesn't come back. And if she has to come back, do it in a way that doesn't negate the whole point of the preceding part of the story.

It makes perfect sense in the VN.

I don't disagree that its rather odd in the anime, but were rather stuck for what to do.

I've read the VN. The problem isn't whether it makes sense. The problem is the same there because it still means the whole story focusing around Ushio, Tomoya and his father etc. was pointless.

It's been a while so I might have forgotten some bits, but doesn't the reset button simply kick Tomoya back to his highschool days with him retaining his memories? He keeps all his development plus knows how he might prevent Nagisa's death.

No, everything is reseted to Ushio's birth, but Tomoya does seem to have some idea of what happened earlier.

I don't think it negates the character developement and isn't either that much of a Deus ex Machina(well, yes it is in part, but with over 40 episodes of hints being dropped about the significance of the Orbs, it isn't out of nowhere).

@Arha: Is this why you hate Nagisa so much? Or is it becuase you hate Nagisa that you don't like that she got revived

My opinion of Nagisa has nothing to do with it. I dislike her because she's so passive and obviously designed to be cute. I also dislike her because I don't like the dynamic she has with Tomoya and a few other reasons like everyone else being more interesting. However, as I said, it has nothing to do with this. I'm satisfied with any of three different endings: Nagisa stays dead, Nagisa doesn't die in the first place and Nagisa comes back to life in a way that does not make everything to do with bonding with Ushio and getting over Nagisa pointless.

How does it not negate the character development if thanks to what happened he's no longer like that?

Man I still need to watch this series.

I recall watching this series. I have not cried like a baby before or since.

I greatly disagree about Nagisa, but I no longer have the desire to argue the point.

She's not even my favorite character anyway.

The conversation wasn't about Nagisa. Someone said I hold my opinion because I don't like her. That means I get to say that that is not the case.

Oh, good, we're already discussing the ending of After Story. I thought I was going to have to bring up the subject and I was worried I might be a little too blunt about it.

Arha's opinion is my opinion. I kind of understood why they'd do it in the VN - after all, if you went through all the work in all the other routes, it makes sense that you could get that as a "reward" - but at the same time, that only works if the very end is a bonus you get after completing all of the other arcs. Instead, the entire After Story is the bonus arc, so it's still a deus ex machina.

And make no mistake, it's a huge one. Actually, calling it that is being frankly a bit too respectful. It's more like a cop-out. It could have been a beautiful, meaningful story about coping with loss. Instead we got "Ha ha, just kidding, everything turned out perfectly!" Ugh.

That said, the rest of Clannad and Clannad ~After Story~ was good enough that I'm willing to forgive the ending. The story overall rates a bit lower because of it but it's still quite good.

There's also the serious problem of the manipulative way it tackles the stories - don't even get me started on the godawful melodramatic music - but there was emotional substance behind the melodrama, so I'm willing to forgive that pretty easily as well.

I don't know about melodramatic music, but I find myself hoping that some big eater character stumbled across the Dango family.

Kyouko.

Let me stop to consider that one. Ooh, nice one Kyouko.

Yep, that'll do.

Fixed that for you. (Seriously though, yeah, there was that bonus episode, but Tomoyo is just too awesome to be contained in one episode. I mean, she got her own game, after all...)

edited 12th May '11 10:16:53 AM by ashnazg

Seconding that. Toe-moe-yo for the win!

Kotomi was my favorite, but yeah I would watch an entire season of Tomoyo.

Nagisa <3.

Heh, I once tried to write a For A Want Of Nail story in where Nagisa actually managed to graduate without repeating year and everything primarily boiled down to Love Triangle between Tomoya, Tomoyo, and Kyou. It's something of an Old Shame though.

@Kirino:

If you're going to stand there and assert that this is not way, way too cheesy, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

I should be clear it's the melodrama of the music that's godawful, not the actual music itself, which is nice, if way too synthy for my tastes.

Also, Tomoyo is the best character. Fact.

Maybe it's just me, but I sort of suspect the "Happy Ending" episode in the case of CLANNAD and Kanon were added on after the reception of the Ai R anime, which DOES opt for the bad ending with no happy ending in sight. Not a lot of people appreciated that kick to the gut ending being it (but then I guess it doesn't help that Ai R suffered from some nasty potholes that makes the last few episodes of the series bewildering as well as upsetting)

In both cases, the happy ending episode is mostly self contained as I recall, so people that don't like them can ignore them if they want. Though I was under the impression that Tomoya effectively gets to live his life over, while subconsciously knowing he has to make the right steps in life in order to earn his happy ending. After all, Tomoyo's main problem was that outside of Nagisa, he didn't really care for anyone else in a strong way despite his helpful nature. He wasn't even interested in Ushio to begin with, it was a child he was having with Nagisa because she wanted one, and he wasn't really fussed. Something MUST of changed in Tomoyo because we see him as an attentive parent in Ushio's growing up montage.

By the way. Am I the only one that thought Tomoya's dad really was a failure as a father? No, CLANNAD, don't give me this crap about how he tried raising Tomoya on his own after his wife died and all that crap, he ruined his arm and then proceeded to treat him like a stranger. He ruined Tomoya.