Complaining bout grinding in RPGs, are they just approaching it WRONG?

I had more of a problem in the GBA Fire Emblem since they only mention Attack Speed (double attack) in 'classic' attacking. Which was 1)useless since i could find the nessacry information using the 'simple' attack 2) since it only showed AS when attacking I could not know the AS speed of an enemy that was too far but close enough to hit me on his turn.

Thankfully they fixed this on the consoles by putting the AS in on the character stat sheet. Although it was a bit frustrating on how to raise it.

Which reminds me JRP Gs, stop being coy and just tell me what the luck stat does.

@Cider

Nope, just renamed ("easy" was known as "normal" "Normal" was "hard" and "hard" was "manic") but are otherwise the same.

What do you even mean with the "Attack speed"? I mean, isn't that just the speed stat? o-o I thought it was explained in seventh one at least considering that I remember knowing about it ._.; And heck, what do you mean it wasn't listed in GBA ones? Speed stat is listed...

edited 9th May '11 8:00:02 PM by SpookyMask

Attack Speed refers to Speed + any changes. For example, in FE 7 and 8, if Eliwood has 7 con, 15 speed, and wields an iron sword, which has 5 weight, his Attack Speed will be fifteen. If he wields a steel sword, with 8 weight, with those same stats, he'd have an Attack Speed of 14, since the weight of the steel sword was 1 greater than his con, lowering his speed by one. In FE 9 and 10, AS is calculated in the same way, but uses Strength instead of Con to determine how much speed is lost.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!

Oh, that thing.

Still didn't find it confusing since I remember knowing about it ~_~

Pretty sure you can press select or something and look at each stat to see what it does. Weight of course tells you that it reduces speed and constitution that it negates weight. I certainly don't remember ever being confused by this. Fire Emblem is actually delightfully simple with its pure subtraction.

edited 9th May '11 8:32:42 PM by Clarste

The AS stat in the GBA F Es was only seen when you used the Detail attack menu, make it useless for planning ahead and it description is vague. Where as the console F Es had the stat on the character charts thus planning ahead attack is easier and its description explicitly said if the AS is 4 or more than the opponents you will attack twice.

Although it neglects to mention that AS = speed - (Weight of weapon - strength), I consider the console F Es a step in the right direction.

^It actually mentions that speed is determined with (constutation minus weight) if you read what stat descriptions in stat screen =P You just never read description of constutation or weight.

edited 9th May '11 11:26:06 PM by SpookyMask

And again, experimentation is key when it comes to this sort of thing. I had my stats in simple mode when I first played (heck, I still do sometimes) and before I fully understood the Speed - (con-weight)=AS thing, I'd notice that if Florina attacks the enemy with her Slim Lance, she'll get to double the enemy with weaker hits, and if she attacks with her Iron Lance, she'll do a hit that does more damage, but she won't double. So I should probably keep her with more Slim Lances (which the description also mentions is lightweight) until the Iron Lances look like they'll do more double attacks.

It'd be one thing if Fire Emblem wasn't a game that forcasts the battle with how much damage you'll do if you hit and things like that, but you can use those forcasts to learn a lot about who's best to use with what, even without knowing how the forumula's work. From there you can use other pieces of information to figure out how the game works. For example, you may see that Lowen the Cavalier IS able to double with an Iron Lance on the same enemy, even though his Speed is lower. So something else may be at work here, such as their class, or their constitution. It did take awhile, but I did eventually figure out a rough idea of how it worked, and that helped make a difference in me being a better FE player.

It's true that knowing how everything works to the T will let you maximize your options, but imo, part of the fun with battle systems like these is figuring out how it works. I think that it may just be a difference in ideas of whats fun at this point, only knowing some parts of how things work and figuring the rest out on your own, vs getting it all from the start and deciding what to do from there.

Also, I had forgotten about the final boss in Strange Journey. I did the Law route but I think its the same boss. HATE her, and I may have to try grinding just for her just to get it over it, but I actually don't think that'll help, vs finding new demons and skills and stuff. Most of the game didn't really require Grinding, as "exploring" (dungeon crawling and doing quests) was enough.

edited 10th May '11 12:29:10 AM by Barrylocke

Taking a break from FE1, for the FE8 draft instead

You know, I can't help but think that people are mistaking the term "grinding" for doing side quests and other non-mandatory stuff, like looking for treasures.

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Agreed. Doing a side quest is not grinding, and neither is exploring new areas.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com

@Mention of Strange Journey's Neutral Final Boss:

Me neither, but I still think excessively high encounter rates, especially when combined with tactically unchallenging combat, are a major contributer to the impression a game is grind-heavy for a lot of critics. I'm talking about really insane ones, like where you 4+ encounters just walking across a single screenful of terrain.

If the combat mechanics are good enough (Fallout, for instance) then it never really gets old for me unless I'm just insanely overpowered compared to them. In RPGs with good combat, pretty much every fight is fun.

Heh, that reminds me of a topic in the old IJBM forum complaining about how JRPGs are excessively coy when it comes to describing their mechanics. What does an item or spell do? How much damage was resisted? What damage types are there? What are the stats for a monster? It adds a certain amount of mystery and challenge, I admit, but if the game is too opaque it makes it seem as though the Player Character is completely numb to the world.

Eric,

I find there's a couple cases which lead to people complaining about grind:

1. People who actually use really silly strategies, as mentioned in the first post of the thread.

2. Some games really ARE grindy. Sometimes, if you never flee from a battle, you'll still get curb-stomped unless you grinded a lot. This is a very rare case, though. There are also quite a few games I've seen which are just plain overly repetitive; I call this the RuneScape scenario.

3. Occasionally a game is set up in a way that allows players to paint themselves into a corner, after which the only way out is to grind. Uneven EXP distribution (such as how many games award more EXP to units you use more) is a prime example - you may end up with one unit which was really useful up to a certain point, receiving all the EXP because of it. Then suddenly you come across a boss or an entire dungeon of enemies which are resistant to that unit's forte and/or which that unit is weak to, which leaves you no choice but to go back and grind. A mild example of this is Pokemon - if you don't rotate your Pokemon enough, you could end up with one or two really powerful Pokemon and a bunch of underleveled ones, and then you're screwed if you reach a gym that's strong against your powerful Pokemon. For a non-EXP variant, I suspect TWEWY might fall into this if the player completely forgets to let the characters eat.

4. If the battle system itself is no fun, people will complain because all battles feel like grind. (Again, see RuneScape.) Conversely, if the battle system is still interesting even if you're up against The Goomba, players will tolerate a lot more grind. Mega Man Battle Network 3 was a great example of this (although there was no EXP system whatsoever, and therefore no grind) in my opinion, because of the Counter Hit mechanic - even when I could easily take out Mettools with a single hit, I found myself trying to lure them into attacking so I could hit them with the right timing to interrupt their attack and score that Counter Hit. The Tales Series also tends to have fun battles unless you're so overleveled that you can't even pull off a dozen combo hits without the enemy dying in mid-combo, at which point you have no business trying to grind anyways.

Extra 1: Poochy Ain't Stupid

@Poochy: Which is why the system used in Pokemon Black And White encourages the use of a full team this time; not only are HM moves not as necessary to complete the game, but the experience distribution means that an evenly leveled team is more useful.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

I actually level up more pokémon in BW than in any other game before. A total contrast to my early Blue days, when I only really leveled up my starter.

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.

The system does make it worthwhile leveling a full team up. And then there's Exp Egg received as part of the plot, so getting a team to level 50 before the Elite Four is easy.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

Why must the world conspire to make me buy the new pokemon?!

Because the Great Nintendo wants you to.

I never really level ground in Pokémon Black and White.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

I do it all the time, though mostly to keep my team perfectly balanced. I set up 5 or 10 level intervals all in my team must reach before I face the next gym leader.

The Blog The Art

I tend to think it's a case of new fans who don't understand.

The reason we're in dark gaming times as jRPG fans in terms of respect, is not only have there not been any solid titles hardly lately, other than Tales of Vesperia. But because we're the aliens in a new generation of video game fans who are growing up on Oblivion and know nothing else. Kind of like how supposed "casuals" are coming into the fray, the new generation just doesn't have the same Japanese tastes we were treated to. Back then, the West imitated the East, with companies like Rare making platformers with Super Mario characters in them, and making fighting games such as Mortal Kombat to keep up with Street Fighter.

Now, people have lots of wRPGs and FPS games, and they're easily accessible. And they have casual games. So while years ago, we were in Mario versus Sonic and nothing else, but the slew of third party games, many times Japanese ones seeming plush. Japanese games don't seem as plush to the new generation. They just don't get it. This is the generation of casuals and Western games that actual appeal to Western gamers, and they didn't have THAT hard of a time back in the SNES days. They have their Halo and their casual games, and easily accessible wRPGs. This is completely different from our generation. Also, we're on the decline of console gaming, as the computer gaming and cell phone gaming industry is starting to replace the home console and handheld system. Being a jRPG fan, is sadly, starting to become the sign of being a geezer. And a large part of the reason some of us still have a preference(those of us that do), due to a sense of nostalgia for our most important games growing up that we wish to relive. The newer generation of gamers don't have that. And instead games like Oblivion have a fast faced, grind lacking, narrative lacking gameplay style that appeals the ADHD feelings of new gamers and many casuals. jRPGs don't, they aren't as approachable to new gamers and casuals like wRPG sandboxes are.

And for that reason, yeah, a lot of people don't realize that grinding isn't important, if you know how to play. And there are purposely many FA Qs pages for almost every jRPG, teaching people how to handicap play and beat the game. This type of gamer doesn't see that, they see that they have lost, realize that grinding makes it easier, and assume that the premise of the game is related to grinding, instead of any sense of strategy. The problem is, if you die in a jRPG, it is most likely because you lacked strategy, not because you didn't spend enough time grinding.

Of course, that's not going to stop anyone from using that line of reasoning as to why RP Gs are bad. As jRPGs are an Acceptable Target nowadays.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Most of that rings true, although I have to wonder if you've played any DS or PSP rpgs recently if Tales of Vesperia was the last high quality jrpg

Taking a break from FE1, for the FE8 draft instead

Well, I was mostly not including handhelds in that assessment. Though I didn't explicitly say it.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I liked Final Fantasy XIII myself, although I know it's quite a divisive game...

And if we're including all kinds of RP Gs in this assessment, I can think of a couple other JRP Gs from this generation that I enjoyed, like Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, and...okay, well, that's about it so I can see your point. The Wii is apparently getting Xenoblade though, and hopefully (although it's seeming increasingly unlikely) The Last Story.

edited 12th May '11 10:13:45 AM by Beorc

Welcome to th:|

It doesn't help that one of the best RPG released in the Wii(outside of Japan) is both under the radar as well as afflicted by voice actors so bad that it turns away many who got a chance to find out about the game...

JRP Gs, asides from Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, are generally under advertised these days.

---

Sometimes I wonder whether Square Enix is a good thing or a bad thing for JRP Gs. I mean, on one hand they consistently bring out really good games*

^{okay, just their RP Gs}

, Final Fantasy games are often good, same as Kingdom Heart games, plus TWEWY. They're pretty much responsible for the popularity in the first place.

On the other hand, when they make ONE failed*

game, the entire gaming public will use that one failed game to represent all JRP Gs in general and apply everything present in that one failed game to all JRP Gs, or FF 7.

Worse, people keep on ignoring their great games. ALL of their handheld Final Fantasy games far surpasses their recent HD Final Fantasy games in consoles in terms of fun. But you don't hear anyone talking about those game, no they just talk about 13 and 14 over and over and over again as though those are the only games SE ever made.

And to stay on-topic...most or even all Final Fantasy games can be easily beaten WITHOUT grinding. Exception being possibly the first game. But if you need to grind in any of them, either you skipped a lot of random encounters, or your strategy needs to be reworked.

edited 12th May '11 12:30:53 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."