As part of the campaign to make the tropes distinct.: Nightmare Fuel

One question though: Which options do we have for HONF now? I proposed to turn it into a supertrope/index for tropes for scary things, but it's not winning the crowner - presumably a few people either take it as exclusive with the other options or they think it's an example cut (Both wrong, alas).

The other option just lost the NF crowner and it seems that the NF cut doesn't fit exactly with it.

So what?

So there's no Scary Moments option on the table anymore?

Well that's just great...

edited 9th Apr '12 8:25:04 AM by TwoGunAngel

I think that the whole Nightmare Fuel line has too many connotations on-wiki to just turn it into a supertrope. If we want a Scary Index (which is not a bad idea, really) then that's best kept separate from this issue.

Which connotations?

I don't think we need a new scary index. Just repurpose High Octane Nightmare Fuel as the catch-all term for anything scary.

edited 9th Apr '12 8:27:56 AM by lu127

Yes, we don't need it to be separate.

Also, splitting the examples off to subtropes would help reducing the massive amounts of Thread Mode, This Troper etc. that HONF tends to accumulate.

Indeed, we already have Horror Tropes, which covers many Nightmare Fuel tropes which are primarily used in horror stories. Both Accidental and High Octane Nightmare Fuel were part of the right-hand sub-index.

Horror Tropes is about genre tropes, not so much about scary tropes. Big difference. Hence the indexes must be separate.

edited 9th Apr '12 8:33:23 AM by SeptimusHeap

Subtropes are a bad idea. ANF has proven that people don't bother to note the differences.

edited 9th Apr '12 8:33:15 AM by lu127

Perhaps what we need to do is:

1. Clarify the purpose of Sugar Wiki / Darth Wiki. Is it gushing/complaining, or positive/negative?
2. Wait and see what Eddie is going to do about HONF.
   • Assuming the examples stay, ditch the current crowner and come up with options base on what the reality is now.
   • If it goes, then we really have nothing more to do here.

I still maintain that fear and sadness are not necessarily negative in the context of reactions to fiction. People watch Steel Magnolias because it makes them cry, and they play Silent Hill because it scares them - they want that emotional response. In that context, it's considered a positive thing that the media scared or saddened you.

ANF isn't a subtrope of HONF. A Sister Trope maybe. Also, the subtropes I mean would likely be objective (variants of the general HONF theme by device employed)

Would an Example Sectionectomy exclude the supertrope/index option? Did Not Do The Research is a supertrope as an index with no examples.

In fact, my idea is to turn this into a page like Did Not Do The Research.

edited 9th Apr '12 8:36:55 AM by SeptimusHeap

An intended and successful Audience Reaction does not equate to a positive reaction, which is what Sugar Wiki is about.

High Octane Nightmare Fuel is about the Audience Reaction of fear. There is no need for subtropes to that.

The other moment pages have tropes that are related to (and usually cause) their reaction (Comedy Tropes, Drama Tropes, etc), but don't have actual subtropes because being amused, awed, etc, are reactions that don't need to be subdivided.

edited 9th Apr '12 8:50:18 AM by Ekuran

Something that is deliberately scary isn't an Audience Reaction. It's about the writer trying to scare someone - is Scare Chord an Audience Reaction/not a subtrope of HONF?

Sugar Wiki isn't about "intended" vs. "unintended"

ETA: One arrow too much.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:02:16 AM by SeptimusHeap

I didn't say it was about intended. I said it was about gushing. However, there are those who say it is about "positive" things, and people enjoy being scared. Otherwise the horror genre wouldn't exist.

I started a Wiki talk thread to hammer out the purpose of Sugar Wiki and Darth Wiki, since we had a similar debate in the ANF TRS thread and no one could agree.

A device that is deliberately scary is a trope, not a subpage of an audience reaction. If it's not Too Rare To Trope, YKTTW it if we don't have it.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:02:13 AM by ccoa

That last paragraph is why I thought of making HONF a supertrope.

You want to ditch the Audience Reaction, and just make it a supertrope of all Horror Tropes?

I don't know if that's a good idea.

I thought that Horror Tropes was about the genre more than the scariness.

"Intended", by definition is a trope and not an Audience Reaction. HONF is like Complete Monster more than like Accidental Nightmare Fuel.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:06:21 AM by SeptimusHeap

In practice, HONF is used for "this scared me", however. I don't know if we can overcome that cultural inertia.

I know, that's why I said it's about positive reactions.

Also, Scare Chord goes on Fear Tropes/Horror Tropes, which is what you're trying to make High Octane Nightmare Fuel be.

You know what, screw it.

(High Octane)Nightmare Fuel has and always will be used as the Audience Reaction for being scared, intended or not. There is no compromise to this, as tropers will always use it as Crowning Moment Of Scary. Making it about the writer trying to cause intended fear in the audience wouldn't even make High Octane Nightmare Fuel qualify for YMMV, and yet it is YMMV based on how people use it.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:09:05 AM by Ekuran

I know that and the misuse. Maybe we need to remove the examples like we did for Did Not Do The Research.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:09:53 AM by SeptimusHeap

I agree with you, Ekuran. High Octane Nightmare Fuel cannot be repurposed. It would be like trying to repurpose Narm. Impossible.

No. What we need to do is make it about being scared in general, intended or not.

"Merging" ANF and HONF, you mean?

And that lost the crowner the last time it was brought up - albeit narrowly.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:11:54 AM by SeptimusHeap

I'm going to agree. Give up and make it Crowning Moment Of Scary. It's trying to keep it away from that that's caused many of the headaches in the past.

On the subject, did anyone notice that FE cut the examples index on HONF?

Since the problems of NF/ANF apply to HONF as well, I'd say he really wants the examples for HONF gone.

But it's just guesswork at this point