Just FYI, Mew can't actually learn all moves. Just all TMs. -does not know if Mind Reader is a TM or not-

It's Smeargle that can know "every" move (technically not true, because it can't learn Chatter, but true in spirit).

Still, that implies that if a TM was made for every move, it would be compatible with all of them. And learning every move has been in the in-game canon for a while... Crystal's Pokedex entry, to be precise.

Gameplay and Story Segregation, sure, but then I thought we were playing by Story rules. So... Sorry if that's not the case.

We play with a mixture. A lot of things are story-oriented, but a Pokemon has to learn the move in either the games (I don't think Generation is a concern there, either), or the TCG in order to have it in the RP.

Flygon ties with Mew and Hydreigon is barely outmatched by it, while Gengar, both Latiis, Mismagius, Cryogonal, and Azelf all outspeed it. And no, nothing outspeeds Deoxys-S because that was the entire purpose of the forme, so it's kinda expected.

What is it about Mew and Deoxys that make them unmatched? How are they better than any of the other 10 legendary Psychic types, Mewtwo, or Pokemon like Alakazam and Metagross? Also, who's to say that Mew's transformations are any more perfect than Ditto's, or vice versa? They both alter their DNA to do it, and it's classified as the same move.

edited 7th Sep '12 7:52:55 PM by Tropeless

Then I don't see what the problem is with Mew learning everything. After all, theoretically if T Ms kept getting made, and Move Tutors stayed in place, eventually every move would be made available to Mew.

And once again, I'm going by Story on this one for the argument on Power. Moreover, unlike most of the other Legendary Psychics, they are Pure Psychic. You could argue Mewtwo breaks into that as well, but that's to be expected when it's designed as a Mew clone. As for the difference between Mew and Ditto, Mew doesn't need a sample of a Mon to do it. Ditto's Transform specifically can only Transform into a mon it's in combat with in the games, or in the stories that it's near or has met before. Mew, on the other hand, has been shown to Transform into Pokemon nowhere near it, on the fly. And, as it actually has the original DNA of all earthly mons, they physically have to be perfect, and can be accessed any time.

Mew doesn't learn every move from Move Tutors. Just TMs.

The point I'm trying to make is that not every move is a TM. We're not going to say that they've been making more moves into TMs in WAAPT. We're intentionally restricting ourselves to what actually exists in the games. That's not a point I'm going to move on. It's for balance.

Also, Ditto in the RP can transform into anything, any time they want.

Mew had the original DNA, yes, but evolution would probably beg to differ on being able to use them. Transform requiring seeing the Mon is Gameplay and Story Segregation, as shown recently with Cretor who transformed specifically into Mons found nowhere near the location he was found on. It also doesn't matter at all, since Deoxys can only mutate its DNA partially to give it different skills, and can't actually become another species.

Four of the ten others are also pure typed, one of which is the practical god of knowledge and should be able to read any mind like a sheet of paper.

edited 7th Sep '12 8:25:03 PM by Tropeless

Bulbapedia begs to differ on Move Tutors...

I understand if it's for balance. I don't get how that works when it's for Mew, which is literally meant to be a balance breaker. It's legendary. That's what it does. And if you're not moving... Then this part of the conversation is moot.

The Ditto transforming into anything part, I didn't know, and why you're opening up Ditto's abilities from gameplay but hampering Mew's is beyond me. Ditto in the games could not transform into any mon ever, only ones it met. So... This clashes with your point on Mew.

Mew does not "become" another species either, and neither does Ditto. They all merely alter their form to another, and in Mew and Ditto's case, they happen to be the forms of other mons. If Deoxys only had access to very little DNA stored on those meteorites, it stands to reason he would have less he could transform with.

The other one besides the Lake Trio is Mewtwo, who is meant to copy Mew, so that's moot. As for the Lake Trio themselves, now we're getting into YMMV territory by debating which Legendaries are the better psychics on specific attributes, when by and large it should be clear Mew and Deoxys are the best overall Psychics because of better stats.

So this conversation is running into the ground. I'll wave the white flag if needed to end this already, but frankly this still seems to be YMMV, if we're still able to argue despite all of us acting like it's clear cut.

edited 7th Sep '12 8:47:53 PM by MindGamer

I really don't have much to say about the whole Mew/Deoxys thing. So instead, here are all my plans so far. The spoilery ones were made incredibly vague for viewing convenience. I will elaborate via PM to anyone who wants clarification for any.

The rest of Kanjoh

• Diane finishes her tests for PEFE
• Alli gets one more mon, specifically [REDACTED]
• Alli gives Lina a certain flirtatious Altaria for her birthday
• POSSIBLY introducing the Anti!Eskay
  • Seviper named Jasper. Shininess TBD.
  • Feraligatr named Ria.

Rt AU

• AU!Alli finishes recovering in the hospital
• AU!Diane getting more mons
  • A Drifloon named Wisp is the only definite.
• Chroma and her backstory
• AU!Igneous siding with the Dragons
• A Paper Mario homage featuring AU!Doopliss and Loki
• Find SOMETHING to do with the AU!Lakedooms

Conquest

• Kaius and Famire
• Ancestor!Diane (STILL needs a name)
• Ezio expy w/ Pidgeot as Perfect Link

Holon

• Delta!Golurk
• Igneous and Tanamo's rivalry

Other

• If we ever revisit Hoenn:
  • Eskay's Dad
  • Hoenn Battle Frontier

edited 7th Sep '12 8:54:24 PM by Eskay64

Sorry to interfere here since I'm not part of the RP, but the numerous Deoxys in the PMD cavern were all weird illusion/projection/whatever thingies created by the one and only real Deoxys in the cavern. Just thought I'd correct that.

Hmm.

At least according to my HC, Deoxys runs a different spectrum of coverage than Mew. Mew is a minor god(dess) of creation, Deoxys is just sort of...weird and powerful. Closer to Mewtwo, at least IMO.

Feel free to disregard this if you wish, just my two Poké on the matter.

Deoxys is a mutated virus, right?

It was actually Cresselia, as Mewtwo is artificial and thus not a real legendary. And technically, changing your DNA DOES make you that Pokemon. You simply have the extra brainpower to switch it back. The Mew point was just that it's not how Mew transforms. I don't think it'd be reasonable or likely to store the DNA of every individual being in the world (since they're all different).

@Eskay: Cool. Mind putting it in the cumulative forum thread?

Mind Gamer:

I did not know that about Move Tutors. Learn something new, eh? Anyway, the principle stands. Mind Reader is not in Mew's available move pool, and thus, it cannot learn it IRP.

The Ditto thing is where Gameplay and Story Segregation comes into play. Transform is in Ditto's move pool (in fact, it is Ditto's move pool). In the RP, Transform works differently than it does in the game, because a lot of moves have non-combat applications.

For all intents and purposes, they are becoming something else. They're altering their DNA, as evidenced by suddenly having access to moves they normally wouldn't (at least in Ditto's case). Also, just for future reference, the RP's Deoxys (the main universe's one, anyway) is female. Or rather, gender neutral, but addressed as female.

Technically, in terms of BST, the best Psychic types are Lugia/Mewtwo, then Celebi/Victini/Jirachi/Latias/Latios/Metagross/Deoxys/Cresselia/Mew/Meloetta so it's tied for third with a lot of other mons. What sets Mew apart is that it's stats can go in any direction, because they're all the same (100), which isn't unique to it, but is shared with only a few other mons, and that it can learn most moves.

Like I said at the start here, I'm not saying it's a bad idea. But seeing as we're talking about the characterization of a Legendary, the idea does need to be challenged, to make sure all the i's have been dotted and the t's crossed, y'know?

Anom: It's not really clear what Deoxys is, to my understanding. Is it an alien? Is it a mutated virus? Is it a mutated alien virus? Who knows?

edited 7th Sep '12 9:06:43 PM by BadWolf21

@Deoxys' mindreading: PEFE-wise it's more akin to Mind Rape since Deoxys is a Starfish Alien.

@Deoxys' origin: Going by at least three different canons (Games, anime, and manga) Deoxys was a space virus that got mutated into its current form via getting shot with a laser.

edited 7th Sep '12 9:39:41 PM by rmctagg09

While the multiple Deoxys in that cave in the first PMD game are just illusions, there is a temple in a Wi-Fi mission in Pokemon Ranger Guardian Signs, were upon befriending the Deoxys in the temple, we learn there are even more Deoxys in there.

And yeah, it is apparently some sort of mutated space virus.

edited 8th Sep '12 1:08:20 AM by DarkerShining

-raises hand-

If its a virus then why does nobody get sick? Sorry if I'm butting in.

Deoxys isn't that kind of virus.

Sorry to butt in, but because it's mutated and enlarged. Deoxys can't fit inside a human being (Except maybe Clay), let alone infect individual cells. Though the mutation probably uplifted it enough that it doesn't really need to reproduce via cellular infection, if it even retained species propagation instinct at all.

edited 8th Sep '12 1:44:15 PM by Anomalocaris20

Not to mention that even if it was that small there's no guarantee that infection would even be possible since it's non-native to the planet.

I imagined Deoxys to be "uplifted" by the mutation, possibly not even capable of reproduction but "above such petty instinctual drives", so to speak (Alongside a theoretically unlimited lifespan).

Important Discussion Alert!

After some major discussion, we have finally gotten to the bottom of Luke's concerns about the RP! Yaay!

But don't start celebrating yet, because we don't have solutions yet. Which is why this post exists, pretty much.

Luke has agreed that his problems fall under two broad categories: changing game/anime canon to suit our needs, and messing with reality (such as transforming 'mons, or excessive 4th Wall Breaking).

And so... we need to come up with compromises on these issues.

Suggested compromises so far:

• If you're going to travel somewhere far away, at the very least, mention some kind of transportation. Flying, taking a train, taking a bus, riding a flock of Butterfree, just walking, whatever, just don't appear somewhere. (Does shardporting count here? I'm really not sure; not that the shards should be around much longer...) Silent would like to add that you should keep in mind that you will not always be able to realistically reach where you want to go in a minute.

• If you don't want 4th Wall stuff to mess with your characters, make them immune to it. They can just ignore 4th Wall Breaks and not do it themselves.

• Clear changes to established canon that can affect everyone with everyone before making them.
  • A sidenote: If it won't affect you and doesn't, like, offend your morals or something, let it be. Remember, this is not yours nor anyone's HC, but an amalgamation of everyone's plus game/anime/manga/whatever canon.
  • Another side note: I do mean everyone. Keep in mind, the chat is not the entire community. Post it in discussion, where people that don't go in the chat or are not there when you are in the chat, can see it.

Any other suggestion?

I'd also like to add something of my own, that a few other people have issues with... For one, Poor Communication Kills has massively hurt us in the past, and continues to do so. If what you're doing affects others and they have not consented to be surprised, tell them your plans. For another, a few players are... well, pretty over powered. This doesn't really affect the new people that much because they tend to have weaker teams, but a lot of the older players can pretty much Curb Stomp... well, everything. This has been brought up as a problem before, but no solutions have ever really been reached. I have no suggestions of my own that would last very long, but I feel it should at least be addressed. And finally... Many of us seem to be waaay too hung up on the past. Yes, we've made mistakes. And while some merit talking about to figure out what went wrong, if there's something nearly everyone agrees was a mistake (see: the Hoenn finale), or by agreement hasn't happened in a while (see: constant Legendary interaction, Big Bad glitches), then leave it in the past. No one wants to hear about it, and you'll only derail whatever's going on.

This post was thumped by the Shillelagh of Whackingness

Random change of subject...

There was a short discussion in chat over the rather badass move Heat Shield. Specifically, which mons are capable of it.

End results...

Heat-Shield Capable Mons

Arceus, Reshiram, Groudon, Ho-oh, Moltres, Victini, Volcarona, Magmortar, Magcargo.

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Additions? Subtractions? Multiplications? Divisions? Trigonometric functions? Statistical analyses?

...How is Magcargo more capable of using the move than all of the Fire!Starters?