General Star Wars Animated Series

Cruherrx: There is no work in this franchise called "Sith Lords". That was the subtitle of Knights of the Old Republic II. The novel is called "Lords of the Sith".

I would also like to remind everyone that some of us don't get to see the episode for a week, so please for the love of god mark all spoilers.

Again, you're only paying attention to the individual events and not paying attention to the tone of the series, which you need to if you're going to claim the Status Quo hasn't changed.

Kanan said this was change, Hera and co. clearly had done thing before elsewhere, etc, but that doesn't change the fact that the scope of the series is defined and based within Lothal itself, with the stakes being centered around Lothal and its people - both universally through the setting and individually through Ezra, as that's where him often being the focus character contributes.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:24:27 PM by KnownUnknown

The tone of the series is swashbuckling heroics while cracking jokes and wacky hijinks in a period of the galaxy marked by extreme loss, the brutal genocide of the Jedi, the subjugation of entire species and Palpatine cementing the rule of the Empire.

Oh trust me, I understand the tone quite well.

None of the main characters ONCE reflected on the losses they incurred at the end of the series. It ended with them smiling like a family, making the tone overall pretty upbeat and positive.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:27:13 PM by Cruherrx

That's the tone of '"Star Wars,'' not the tone of Rebels specifically. Note that by tone I don't just mean whether it's light or dark, but how the series works narratively.

They could, conceivably, do the same actions elsewhere, but now they're coming from a different position - now they're the outsiders going in, now they're travellers and soldiers first and people who connect with the individual people second, etc. Their position and resources are wildly different now - now they are explicitly a part of something greater - with higher stakes, no specific goals and unsure future actions (that one's particularly important, given how emphasis is put on the fact that the Rebels are shattered and have to rebuilt themselves now), etc.

Again, compare the Downer Beginning of the Empire Strikes Back. Nobody important dies. The Rebels as a whole are on the run but on their way to rebuild to make another base. Everything could have gone back to the Status Quo, but of course it didn't because things are different now - instead, it's the beginning of a plot that turns them away from going back to what was normal before.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:29:40 PM by KnownUnknown

That sure wasn't the tone of Revenge of the Sith, and sure wasn't the world at the start of A New Hope.

It was the tone at the end of A New Hope with Leia smiling as she is handing out medals despite her entire planet being destroyed and all but three of the ships in the strike force that took out the Death Star were lost.

It was the tone of Return of the Jedi with the big party at the end despite the Rebels lost about half their fleet taken out the Second Death Star.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:33:23 PM by ManchuCandidate

It was absolutely the tone of A New Hope. A New Hope was a blatant pulp and classic "hero's adventure" homage. The swashbuckling tone never went away from the series, either - the series as a whole is defined by high energy adventuring scenes, lofty battles, classic romance, dark but occasionally two dimensional villains with larger than life goals, etc.

Luke and Han together, especially, add up to a classic swashbuckling protagonist - Han providing the bravado, Luke providing the chivalry.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:35:25 PM by KnownUnknown

Because by the end of A New Hope, the galaxy has a new hope, and its name is Luke Skywalker. Before that it was constant despair, until Luke fought to finally strike a blow against the Empire.

Saying "stormtroopers are only elite in the beginning" doesn't fly. They're elite in the movies and their only "dubious" outing is against The Ewoks. What people don't remember is how easily the Ewoks captured the rebels and that the Stormtroopers' leaders were too busy focusing on Luke to lead them. Stormtroopers are consistently portrayed as deadly in novels, video games and comics, as well as the three films in which they appeared.

If the writers are following crappy meme logic, they're not good writers.

Collio. That's why I specified the start of ANH though, where it's established the galaxy is suffering under the Empire and the rebels are losing. The start establishes the bleak an dreary state of life. Luke's efforts then changes things because Luke is the hope of the galaxy that will redeem his father and fulfill the prophecy.

PS: I spoilered all my posts, so you guys should probs do the same.

Edit: Fixed the link and I'll just take my leave instead of derailing the thread further. I love you all.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:44:35 PM by Cruherrx

Why did you spoil that, btw? None of it spoils anything for the show.

That's the situation, not the tone. It's the bare events (before and after the actual movie itself, no less), not how those events were portrayed and narratively developed.

edited 20th Jun '15 7:45:19 PM by KnownUnknown

Just to be sure I don't spoil anything for any reader. Can't be too careful since I always veer into tangents. Like right now.

That's how it was portrayed, with obi-Wan telling Luke how evil and vast the empire is, and even with Obi-Wan getting struck down and Han murdering Greedo (in certain cuts anyway). It ultimately changes though, because Luke is a cool albeit-less-attractive-than-Anakin-was guy.

Now I'll take my leave.

If the Stormtroopers were considered to be the elite force and deadly, how did they get the reputation as incompetent and horrible marksmanship Mooks? Video games like Battlefront lampshade this with stormtrooper blasters to have horrible accuracy. And Stormtroopers in the films are always at the comedic butt of the jokes, not helped by the fact we didn't really see any of their onscreen villainy or actual military efficiency (if anything, they seem to be more like of police force than an elite soldiers like the Clone Troopers).

edited 20th Jun '15 7:53:03 PM by Shadao

Called it.

And yeah, stormtroopers being elite units is something that's only really ever been true in certain parts of the old Expanded Universe - not the films. The films just portray them as the standard Imperial grunt. Frankly, I think it was a major mistake to recanonize the Stormtrooper Corps as a separate branch from the Imperial Army (which we've literally never seen onscreen beyond vehicle drivers), because it's just going to keep perpetuating this idea.

The Stormtroopers gained their status as memetic losers for their performance in situations where they were ordered to let the heroes get away - such as on the Death Star - and for being the most recognizable yet disposable mooks in franchise video games. It's a similar issue with TIE fighters - any time they were in the films, they were either on a suicide feint - fitting the profile of a fanatically loyal army - or performed equally if not better than their rebel counterparts.

As for the Ewoks, the Stormtroopers only started losing after Chewie commandeered a tank, and the other ground support was destroyed by traps - and not even all of those were effective. Before that, and in every other larger battle, such as on Hoth or Leia's ship, the Stormtroopers curb-stomp all the way.

Still, what actually annoyed me in the show is not quite how the Stormtroopers were portrayed, but how they were reacted to. Having mooks in a lighthearted show is only par for the course. Having the heroes regard them as such can be grating if there's ever supposed to be any tension present. And now that our heroes are apparently bulletproof, safe to say even that's gone out the window, no matter how dangerous any situation seems.

Other than that, I'm kinda glad the two Imperial lieutenants got killed off in the first season - other than mooks, the other type of villain most unbecoming of any show is the petty and unimaginative hate sink. And now that the action is moving off Lothal, perhaps there can be displays of the Empire's oppression a bit grander than harassing shopkeepers and turning over grocery stalls.

It looks like they're doing something interesting with Agent Kallus. I'm looking forward to seeing how that progresses. And I can totally understand the writers going "this group of characters is pretty flat, let's get rid of all of them except for the one or two with potential and get out of here."

Also, I wasn't convinced before, but now I'm on board with Barriss being the new Inquisitor. They seem to be doing a miniboss thing with the Inquisitors - powerful agents whose plots lead up to the real threat - but this Inquisitor has to bring more to the table than the last one. Likewise, since Vader's not showing up all that much Ahsoka needs something to add to the mix (she had almost no input in this episode until she reached out to Vader). Making the Arc Villain a lost friend, someone who knows Ahsoka and her weaknesses (since Ahsoka is liable to be The Ace in contrast to Kanan) not only makes sense from Vader's point of view (who better to track down his old apprentice than someone who had a similar rapport with her) and - unlike Vader - is perhaps almost willing to rejoin the light would give the two of them a good plot and personal antagonism. It would give Barriss not only a Shadow Archetype foil thing with Ahsoka, but also with Vader himself.

I stubbornly maintain that the concept art didn't look anything like her, though.

edited 20th Jun '15 9:20:06 PM by KnownUnknown

I'm pretty sure Aresko and Grint's deaths were planned from the start - it was just such a great rug-pulling moment to set them up as the typical bumbling cartoon villains who never have anything seriously bad happen to them, and then have Tarkin demonstrate that he is an entirely different type of villain who's got no time for that nonsense. That had to have been intentional.

Good to see that some things never change, such as Cruherrx constantly complaining about the tone of a show predominantly aimed at children.

Also, good season premiere. I really liked it. Vader is hardcore and is going to fuck shit up.

edited 21st Jun '15 1:11:23 AM by higherbrainpattern

I found the final battle and Vader's involvement to be a tad disappointing. But that had more to do with the massive amount of hype than any failure on the show's part.

I liked how scary competent Vader was. His plans and execution were perfect, it's just his minions screwing up that prevented him from achieving perfect victory.

Saw the season 2 premiere just now.

Holy crap! Talk about shit hitting the fan!!

Did anyone get the feeling that Ahsoka does who was that she sensed, but she was bluffing?

And holy crap, Vader refered to Ahsoka as "Skywalker's Apprentice"! He considers himself and Anakin as separate entities?!

Edit: scratch what I just striked! He only said that for the Emperor! And he knows that Ahsoka is alive! OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!

edited 21st Jun '15 4:25:39 PM by TargetmasterJoe

He always has. It was just awesome and sort of sad to see how completely detached he was.

Ninja'd!!!

edited 21st Jun '15 4:28:05 PM by yellowturtle

Make no mistake, Ahsoka definitely knows who she sensed.

Absolutely.

Also, that was pretty much exactly what I was predicting earlier from that scene in the trailer - though I had some help in calling it from seeing where people who had seen the episode in advance put their spoilers.

It is interesting that Vader's first thought is still killing Obi-Wan while the Emperor seems far less concerned about him.

I get the impression Palpatine only cares about Obi-Wan in the sense that he gives Vader the necessary rage and direction to do Palpatine's bidding. He couldn't give a crap about the man himself.

Vader referring to Ahsoka as "Skywalker's apprentice calls back (or maybe forward) to the Emperor referring Luke "the son of Anakin Skywalker" instead of "your son" in Empire.

edited 21st Jun '15 10:00:17 PM by KnownUnknown

As someone who only knows this franchise through Pop Culture Osmosis and It Was His Sled, how important that distinction?