"start of darkness" definition: Start Of Darkness

I'm thought I started a thread about this already, but I can't seem to find it now. I've noticed the pages for Doctor Horribles Sing A Long Blog and the Toy Story series refer to the origins of Lotso and Dr. Horrible each as a Start of Darkness. I'm pretty sure I've seen lots of other examples (though I can't remember any right now) on this wiki of a villain's origin story being referred to as a "start of darkness" despite the story not being a prequel and the trope's page defining the trope as "a Prequel where we find out how the main antagonist from the original story got to that point." I think we should probably just change the trope definition. Are there any objections before I do that?

"This is for prequels and flashbacks that show a major villain's reason for turning evil, not just any villain with a backstory."

So Lotso's flashback fits, but Dr. Horrible, where it's the entire plot, doesn't.

Given that definition, neither Doctor Horribles Singalong Blog nor Toy Story fit. However, I would state that if it's about the feel of a story that counts, Doctor Horrible would fit.

Dr. Horrible contains its own example of Start of Darkness in the prequel comics. I think the example text makes that distinction. However, it's always bothered me a bit that it is listed as being a SoD in and of itself. It isn't, even though it would be a perfect fit if it were framed as a prequel.

edited 18th Mar '11 7:17:48 AM by Fighteer

Deboss: Not the first Toy Story, Toy Story 3. It even fits the technical definition. A prequel, or flashback that show a major villain's reasons for turning evil.

Lotso's story is told through flashback, therefore it is a Start of Darkness.

Never seen Toy Story 3.

I edited the Doctor Horrible example. I made the main point about the prequel comic and then went on to add that the show, despite not being a prequel or flashback, evokes a similar feel to the trope.

Thoughts?

edited 18th Mar '11 8:19:18 AM by INUH

Good, now we need to edit the example on the work page.

On it.

EDIT: Fixed the trope entry on the Dr Horrible page and edited all mentions of the work as a Start of Darkness elsewhere on the page.

edited 18th Mar '11 9:28:06 AM by INUH

I believe Doctor Horrible is actually something known as a Protagonist Journey to Villain, or something like that.

Is it bad that I get bouts of semi-murderous rage when I see all these mis-examples on that trope page?

But seriously, though, does it count if the villain was first introduced in that same work? Like, say, halfway through a movie we take time to show the villain (who first appeared in that movie) becoming evil. I always understood Start of Darkness as being about a villain who existed before the work (or that episode of an episodic work) in question.

edited 18th Mar '11 3:53:13 PM by Kerrah

Again, if they're the protagonist, that would be a Protagonist Journey to Villain when it's the point of the story. If it's not the point of the story or the character in question isn't a protagonist, you may be looking at a simple Face–Heel Turn.

Start of Darkness is supposed to be specifically for prequels, as far as I know. Using it otherwise is probably a mistake.

The "flashbacks" line was added almost a year ago, after a TRS thread that got brought up because of rampant misuse for "showing the reason a villain turned evil." I suspect enough wasn't done to make that clear on the trope page, so it's still getting some misuse.

Maybe a change of title is in order. Perhaps Start Of Darkness Prequel, Villain Genesis Installment, or something like that.

Start Of Darkness Prequel would be good.

Shouldn't this be in Trope Repair Shop?

Yes. I'm moving it now.

"This is for prequels and flashbacks that show a major villain's reason for turning evil, not just any villain with a backstory."

So Lotso's flashback fits, but Dr. Horrible, where it's the entire plot, doesn't.'

Then how come earlier it says "a Prequel where we find out how the main antagonist from the original story got to that point" without any mention of flashbacks in that sentence? Should that be changed to something like "a Prequel where we find out how the main antagonist from the original story got to that point or a flashback within the original story"?

edited 19th Mar '11 5:13:05 PM by 411314

I think the idea is that the villain is already evil when we meet them, and the Start of Darkness is when we revisit their path to discover how they became evil. Hence, prequels and flashbacks.

I support renaming to Start Of Darkness Prequel.

The reason I think flashbacks should count is cuz in an episodic series, they can serve the same purpose trope-wise as a sequel. For example, Lost dedicates an entire episode in the final season to the backstory of the smoke monster. Not a prequel—it's part of the main series like any other episode—but I think it's still the same trope. And there's plenty of other examples with a similar dynamic.

In my view of the trope, the key is that we're going back to look at the origin story of an already-established villain.

But only if they're whole-episode-flashbacks, right?

Um, I guess my guideline would be that the flashbacks should have a narrative of their own. So, like, in Buffy, Spike gets an episode where a series of flashbacks of his backstory are mixed in with the regular events of the episode, Lost-style. I think that would count. But that part in The Incredibles where Syndrome is a kid probably doesn't fit.

It'll be really hard to sort what counts and what doesn't, if we go by that.

Indeed. Let's say a 2-hour movie inserts approximately 10 minutes worth of flashbacks during the climax that show how the Big Bad became what she is today, would that count?

edited 24th Mar '11 4:53:11 PM by Servbot