Full Metal Alchemist General

2003 did keep the scene where he stood up to Lust, it just happens in a different area.

I haven't been commenting latley but I'm currently marathoning the The Promised Day.

At least up to Episode 59 today, I'll finish Brotherhood as well as the entire marathon tommorrow by watching eps. 60-64.

Needless to say scene like Tim Marocoh standing up to Envy is one of thing I love about Brotherhood, 2003 Tim would have simply died but this Tim?

He's like enough of this bullshit!

edited 1st Dec '12 7:30:45 AM by DavidtheMouse14

I hate hate 2003 Edward more than Msnga/Brotherhood Edward, he is less of a Jerkass and shonen hero who actually may be right about things. He is reminds too much of Touma from Index.

I thought you liked the 2003 Edward more?

And if that your reason for hating 2003 Ed, than why do you like Manga/Brotherhood Edward more?

edited 1st Dec '12 12:21:35 PM by DavidtheMouse14

Roy Mustang flaming the ever living mess out of Envy was awesome in the Manga, but it's even more awesome in Brotherhood!

Seriously Travis and Wendy definetly deliver in this episode, Izumi is now in the game, and Hoheheim after all these years confront Father.

Man only ten more episodes left...

All sacrifices have been gather what will happen now?

I;ll be finishing Brotherhood and in turn finish the Marathon tomorrow.

Well, I finish Brotherhood, and needless it says it been's been a wild ride, it took me a month to go trough each.

September for the Manga

October for 2003

and November for Brotherhood and now I'm finish.

Don't know how to feel about this really...

I got those switched around I liked 2003!Edward but I hate manga Brotherhood/Manga!Edward. I got those mixed up I apologize to those who thought I liked the Brotherhood/Manga!Ed.

I fell to see how Manga/Brotherhood Edward is more of a jerkass then his 2003 counterpart, with him acting like a whiny brat with Colonel Mustang, actually push and been rude to Winry, and his lack of empathy with the humconli seeing them nothing more than just lifeless doll, terroizing a innocent kid about his arms and leg. Hell his 2003 counterpart tends to slide towards Good Is Not Nice territory, while the Brotherhood Ed is a Anti Disney Hero.

And while you'll say that he more closer to a shonen hero, I say that 2003 Ed is closer to the typical whining melodramatic hero that very occurent in most anime works as well.

And Edward came out years before the character Toumna did, so that statement falls flat.

edited 5th Dec '12 9:54:58 PM by DavidtheMouse14

I can't speak for GAP, but the reason why I dislike mangahood!Ed is because — as GAP pointed out — he's portrayed as being right about everything. At least, after the Briggs arc. This would be a problem for me even if I agreed with everything he said, but I just find his constant unchallenged and, IMO, mistaken moralizing to be a real lowpoint of the series. His convictions lack any real depth or sophistication — his reasoning is basically "it's wrong because it feels wrong". But whenever he lectures an adult on these convictions, they never challenge him in a meaningful way. Instead, he earns their respect. I can see Miles maybe being a little envious of Edward's innocence, for example, but not admiring it.

03!Ed was self-righteous, too, but he was rarely ever portrayed as correct. At best, the narrative left it ambiguous, and at worst, he ended up being the indirect cause of a massacre. Hell, the writers even take a little dig at him the final episode, where he's shown to be blatantly wrong about Einstein.

For another example: it really pissed me off that mangahood!Ed is not only absolved of all responsibility for Lior, but that both Rose and that old dude with the radio thank him. Because that's a realistic response to the outsider who came to your town, shat on all your beliefs, and exposed your spiritual leader as a fraud in the most disruptive, thoughtless way possible.

Contrast the 03 series, where Scar takes him to the graves of the dead Liorans and explicitly calls him out for his self-righteous, thoughtless behavior.

Basically, I agree that 03!Ed is actually more of a Jerkass than mangahood!Ed in a lot of ways (though less of one in others). The difference is that 03!Ed is frequently called out for that behavior and faces real consequences (in real-time; I'm not talking about the mistake that started everything), while mangahood!Ed's self-righteous jerkassery is rarely commented upon — and, when it is, it's often in a positive capacity.

And I think it's a bit unfair to get on 03!Ed's case for being a bit rough with Winry. Winry had been complicit in withholding the death of what amounted to a surrogate parent from him, and now she was blocking him from doing something about it. He shouldn't have pushed her, it's true — but that's hardly an example of jerkass behavior. It's an example of a person consumed by anger and grief and a sense of betrayal.

edited 14th Dec '12 12:20:25 AM by amarielah

The reason why Edward is right about things in Manga/Brotherhood is because he's a lot more mature then his 2003 counterpart which 2003!Ed veered on being a whiny brat at time.

Another thing I didn't like about 2003!Ed is he almost always lose, there rare chance of victory for him.

edited 14th Dec '12 12:53:38 PM by DavidtheMouse14

See, I don't see mangahood!Ed as more mature at all. His views on morality are childish and actually quite selfish, and he doesn't see anything wrong with interfering in things that are none of his business. (See: the Mustang fight.)

He was treated as if everything he said was right, when in fact I see almost everything he says as wrong. (Like when he tells Miles that people should "ignore race and try to see each other as equals"? I wanted to punch him in the fucking face. He was acting like a privileged, ignorant douchecanoe and Miles was happy about it. Which is just...no. But the whole Briggs arc was filled with little nuggets of fail when it came to race, so I don't think Arakawa actually knows what it's like to be the victim of racism herself.)

Being self-righteous and not being called on it =/= being mature. It just means that you're getting away with being a douche. Or that the author doesn't realize that the character is acting like a douche.

-resist urge to defend Arakawa and fails-

I don't remember the bit between Ed and Miles so I can't judge (right now) if it was racefail-tastic, but when it comes to race stuff - Arakawa at least does not resort to Mukokuseki, which practically erases race. As much as I appreciate the Japanese comic and animation industry, it is a pain to find media wherein the Caucasian characters look Caucasian, the Oriental characters look Oriental, the African characters look African, etc. all in one work.

Instead you keep on running into media wherein you can't tell apart the Japanese from the Caucasians, but the Chinese and African characters are obviously not Japanese.

That's fair, but not what I'm talking about. I'm instead talking about Olivier's "uplifting" speech about race that sounded way too much like racial essentialism for my liking. (It was totally IC of her to give that speech — what bothered me was how it was portrayed by the narrative: as if it's somehow a great nugget of wisdom about tolerance, when in fact it was problematic and gross.) Or the scene I mentioned above.

But the big one is Scar seeing Miles as an example to be followed instead of as a coward to be hated. Basically, Miles' situation comes a little too close to some members of the Nazi government who had Jewish ancestry. Now, I'm a lot less vengeful than Scar — probably because I didn't witness the Holocaust first hand. But if I met one of those people, I would hate them. Any platitudes about "changing the government from within" would seem like excuses to me.

Miles only escaped the purge because of his mixed blood, after all, and he clearly embraces his Ishvalan heritage. However, if he'd been a full-blooded Ishvalan, not even Olivier would've been able to save him. So he says he has pride in his ancestry, but he didn't leave the protection of Olivier to fight the good fight with those he claims are his people. I just don't see Scar — a man so driven by anger that he was willing to kill a fifteen-year-old boy for his mere association with the military — seeing that as admirable. Not even after all the character development in the world. Instead, I think it would make him disgusted at best and murderous at worst. And the fact that Arakawa didn't realize that? Makes it very clear that she doesn't necessarily have enough insight into racism, oppression and genocide to handle those topics with the finesse they require.

I know I'm probably going to be dogpiled for this, but I don't care. Arakawa is a very good storyteller, but her application of simplistic, almost childlike morality to topics such as genocide, and how its victims should respond to it? Was a massive black mark on mangahood for me.

edited 14th Dec '12 7:34:09 PM by amarielah

Yeah, for all that it deals with stuff like war crimes, genocide, racism, terrorism, militarism, it's not all that different from most other shonen manga in its bold confidence that friendship, idealism, and determination can overcome anything; any villain with a shred of decency in them can do a complete Heel–Face Turn so long as the good guys beat them up enough and shout uplifting philosophy at them loud enough. Heck, I've read a shonen manga where a serial killer who dreamed of murdering the entire world became a model citizen after a single Defeat Means Friendship encounter with the main hero.

As someone who watched the 2003 anime first, it's a bit of a letdown, but it's not really surprising that the manga and Brotherhood took that approach.

Can you point out the problematic bits specifically - which anime version, which episode, about when in the episode or which manga volume, chapter, which page?

Just want to get a first-hand view of the bits that's so racism-problematic, cause when it comes to FMA - I am too overcome with joy that it doesn't use Mukokuseki to notice racefail, and I usually notice racefail.

@ probablyinsane

The episode where Ed makes his problematic comments and Olivier makes her problematic speech is episode 34 of Brotherhood.

The specific manga page that has Olivier's skeevy, racially-essentialist speech about "blood" is here. And no — it's not okay because she's assigning potentially positive traits to one's "blood". It's still skeevy as hell.

In the same chapter, Edward equates Scar killing Winry's parents, and the Ishvalan's legitimate resistance to Amestrian agression, to the extermination of the Ishvalan people. And Miles? Is "happy that [Edward] is treating [him] as an equal" and "not pitying [him]". Which is just...blech. That page is here.

The speech about "ignoring race and treating each other as equals" occurs in the next page, but the English translation in this scanlation makes it less skeevy. I don't know if that means the original Japanese is less problematic in the manga, as well — but I'm inclined to think not. Brotherhood was incredibly faithful when it came to these chapters.

The episode where Scar strikes up his "rapport" with Miles is Brotherhood's episode 39. The equivalent chapter is 72. The fact that he's affected by Winry's attitude — though it's cheesy and, I would argue, not at all respectful to the complexity of his character — isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is his reaction to this exchange. Miles keeps calling him "red-eyed brother", but used the privilege his mixed heritage afforded him, coupled with the favor of an Amestrian official, to avoid fighting against the genocide directly. He says he wants to "change the country's perception of Ishbalans from the inside". Now, I would've expected Scar to say something along the lines of, "How lovely it would've been for Ishvalan children to have had the chance to make such excuses. Unfortunately, they were too busy fighting for their lives."

But no. Instead he has a Heel Realization and says, "I'm glad that there are still people like you."

And that? Is one of the biggest wallbangers I've seen in a long, long time.

@ Raven Wilder

I can usually handle the unsophisticated shounen approach to morality, at least when the subject matter is "aliens invading" or "super-powered pirates" or "ninja wars". But when the subject matter mirrors real-world events so closely, with the "state alchemists" acting as stand-in for WM Ds, I expect more. I saw the 2003 series first, which really did handle these subjects with respect for their moral ambiguity and their often insurmountable nature. So when I see mangahood handling them with that same childlike shounen approach? It not only completely destroys my suspension of disbelief; it genuinely makes me angry.

edited 14th Dec '12 10:12:59 PM by amarielah

For comparison, how exactly do you believe that the race issues were handled better in the 2003 version?

I don't remember them coming to the fore all that much.

I ask merely for the sake of open discussion. Believe me, finding racism in manga would probably surprise me even less than finding "I'll change it from the inside!".

edited 14th Dec '12 10:13:03 PM by UltimatelySubjective

I won't comment yet on the anime bits since those take longer to find.

http://www.mangareader.net/116-5251-22/full-metal-alchemist/chapter-65.html

I'm sorry, but I don't see the skeevy in this - (to me) it just looks like Olivier wants people of different heritages in her army. Looks like the "multi-culturism makes a group stronger" mindset.

http://www.mangareader.net/116-5251-18/full-metal-alchemist/chapter-65.html

This one. Ah, note that Al berated Ed, and Al also looked surprised when Miles laughed. So yeah, I don't think Ed's supposed to be the mature one here.

As for Miles preferring to be treated as an equal and not be pitied..., I would understand this. I'm not Caucasian, btw. This bit is complicated to explain, but being pitied can be very very annoying. I've less experience with being feared, but it's not hard to see how being considered as an opponent of equal standing would be preferable to being feared.

Apparently, Ed considers (individual Ishvalans) as people to be treated as equals, neither fearing them or pitying them. How do you prefer Ed to consider Miles?

http://www.mangareader.net/116-5258-40/full-metal-alchemist/chapter-72.html

Hahaha, woah! Yeah, Miles is uh... being more than a bit presumptuous here. XD

Hee! Maybe, he just means that he's going to use he's being just... ?1/16th? Ishvalan as a way to convince Amestrians to less racist - I honestly don't know.

But. BUT, I will defend Scar here (and not just cause he's one of my favorites), this chapter takes place after their encounter with Father. By this time, Scar already knows that both he, his people and the Amestrians were tricked into massacring each other.

So, even though Miles is being presumptuous, Scar can't help but be thankful that there are still people who are convinced that there can be peace between their peoples.

http://www.mangareader.net/116-5241-20/full-metal-alchemist/chapter-55.html

Here's when Ed told Scar who's really responsible for starting the war. It's back in Chapter 55.

edited 14th Dec '12 10:39:59 PM by probablyinsane

Yeah basically, I don't think you can assume people are going to respond in a logically manner any more than you can assume they will respond with a cliché.

This isn't an absolute defence. It is obviously very hard to defend an author brushing aside a serious issue with a cliché in a serious work, however I think this events surrounding this issue may be being misconstrued slightly, and the pervasiveness of this attitude is exaggerated.

So let's see:

Olivia is evil. I don't even think it needs to be said that she is obviously one of the most unrepentantly intolerant people in the manga.

I think Miles is going to face complicated race issues throughout his whole life no matter how you look at it. Like Scar, he would have already faced these issues over and over. If anything I would take his dialogue with Ed as evidence that he is willing to use his racial status to force an issue.

And Scar doesn't respond with anger? Well he is increasingly coming to see that violent actions only contribute to the cycle of hatred.

Add this to the general tone of acceptance in the show, and I think it may not be wrong to look beyond the way these characters express themselves and consider the important thing to be the bigger picture of race relations.

edited 14th Dec '12 11:15:42 PM by UltimatelySubjective

@amarielah

Yeah, because saving your friend and ally from breaks of insanity none of his bussiness.

As well as making a good point that you couldn't be a leader with that attitude.

All I get from yout other comments in that post is Cynical! Cynical!! Cynical!!!

Being idealistic, doesn't mean being childish.

edited 14th Dec '12 11:07:19 PM by DavidtheMouse14

I think we should keep in mind that, unlike real life racism, the people in this 'verse were being played with by a higher power.

Also, unlike for example - The Legend Of Korra, the homunculus were revealed in chapter 2, so practically from the start - this wasn't about people of different races killing each other over land, religion, etc.

It was about our main characters trying to battle against inhuman powers abusing human fears and weaknesses.

So, we just can't expect Scar, for example, to keep on hating the Amestrians when even their leader is a homunculus.

@ probablyinsane

Racism is explicitly addressed in episode 36, "The Sinner Within". Firstly, the Ishbalan "exile" calls the Amestrians out for looking down on Ishbalans for their religious beliefs and technological backwardness.

Then, around 17:40, the following exchange occurs after Edward says he's going to stop Scar from causing more trouble, but that he won't resort to killing him because he's also "human".

Rio: "Don't feed me that. I know you all hate Ishbalans!"

Edward: *Shows him and Rick his automail* "Are you scared?"

Rio: "Why should I be?"

Edward: "Well, there's something that's had me afraid: your red eyes. The first time I saw Scar on those library steps, I was scared of him. He was the first Ishbalan I'd ever seen. But now...I've learned that you can't always trust the way that you feel. And you can't trust everything you've heard about people like me either — from you mom or your dad. Because they can be wrong. That's why we've gotta find our own answers."

Alphonse: "Slowly, over time."

So, in the 03 version, Edward acknowledges his own racism. And acknowledges that those feelings are wrong.

I do have some issues with how Po Cs are handled in the 2003 series. Mostly in that they're often portrayed as superstitious and backward. But, by that same token, I didn't feel like every single major Ishbalan character was there to provide An Aesop about how one ought to deal with being the victim of an atrocity, or how Revenge Is Bad. For example, the original anime didn't have much to say on whether or not Scar's ultimate path was the correct one, but the path he took made complete sense for his character. Contrast with mangahood, where I felt like his choices made far less sense given his characterization — but where those choices are clearly meant to be the correct ones.

So, all in all, I do prefer how the 2003 series handled the fallout of the Ishabalan genocide from the POV of the Ishbalans, and race issues. If only because it avoided some of the more explicit skeeviness in the Briggs arc and treated Scar as a character instead of An Aesop.

Except that she explicitly mentions "blood" — not "heritage". I'm not sure how familiar you are with the history of racism, but referring to a person's "blood" and assigning negative or positive traits to it is the essence of Victorian-era racism. By using the word "blood" more than once, she's heavily implying that she believes that Miles' unique abilities stem from his race — and not from him being...well, Miles. I know people are going to say it's silly of me to get hung up on a single word. It's frustrating, because this speech wouldn't have been so problematic if no mention of "blood" had been made at all. But it really, really makes me feel uncomfortable.

Because I have been subject to similar sentiments in my own life, and it's not pleasant to have people attribute all your accomplishment or failures to your "blood".

I'm sorry, but Al berating him (in a non-specific way, I might add) is not satisfactory. I wanted Miles to call him on his bullshit.

I might stand behind this if what Edward had said had been more along the line of, "I had nothing to do with the war in Ishval, and I won't be held accountable for it because of my so-called "blood"."

With the above dialogue, I could see Miles reacting the way he did. But there's a big difference between "pity" and acknowledging that systematic genocide is worse than an individual killing your friend's parents in a fit of post-traumatic rage.

See my "modified" quote above. If Edward was really going to "ignore race", then he should've actually ignored it, instead of bringing up the actions of people who happened to share some of Miles' ethnic features. That's not "treating him as an equal", IMO — that's being racist.

No. I'm sorry, but no. What actual difference does it make that Father was manipulating things behind the scenes? That makes about as much sense as saying that soldiers can't be held responsible for their actions because they're being given orders by a higher power. If I found out tomorrow that the Holocaust was really the idea of some evil, inhuman monster, would that make the Nazis who carried it out any less guilty of killing my family?

No. It wouldn't.

No, but would killing them really solve anything?

That's what Scar's character arc is about. It's what the Cycle of Revenge theme is about.

Re: the whole "blood" thing:

Are you able to read Japanese? I ask because, unless you do, it can be dangerous to get too hung up on particular word choices in manga/anime; even in faithful translations, the closest English equivalent of a Japanese word can still have different connotations from the original.

For instance, "sensei" translates to "teacher", but based on what little I know about the Japanese language, they use the term much more loosely than English speakers would; I've seen it used as a title of respect for someone more experienced or learned than oneself, even if that person is not actively teaching anyone anything.

So I don't want to jump to conclusions about the use of the word "blood", since the term in that context doesn't necessarily have the same racial implications in Japanese as it does in English.

P.S. That said, I do enjoy the more ambiguous portrayal of Scar in the 2003 anime. When presented with an Anti-Hero or an Anti-Villain, I almost always prefer it when the story lets me make up my own mind about whether they're right or wrong instead of telling me to just accept the author's opinion on the matter.

P.P.S. But in the world of Fullmetal Alchemist, the people who committed genocide won and are still serving with distinction in the military. And, as we see with Lior, the military is quite willing to have them give a repeat performance.

edited 15th Dec '12 12:01:12 AM by RavenWilder