Is slavery worth love?

Happiness can escape from you at any time whatsoever.

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

I'm not saying he will separate you; the ability to separate you if he wanted is enough.

The difference between having a master who gives you freedom while remaining a slave and having true freedom is the difference between living under an enlightened dictator and a true democracy. I'd prefer the democracy any day, even if it wasn't as stable, because the dictator proves he does not have the true interests of the country at heart simply by remaining a dictator.

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Self sacrifice to help another? I'd really rather just sacrifice my life outright, if it came to that.

I'm not keen on the guy who sells himself to ease the pain of other slaves. Selling himself to use the money to free other slaves is noble; selling yourself to make them comfortable is missing the point.

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No it's not lounging around. I can't really describe the feeling from finishing my first ever Python script, and since I can't you wouldn't really understand. But it was AMAZING, I can tell you that.

I should probably also tell you that happiness as I'm using it here is the opposite of boredom, not sadness.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Honestly I'd wade through the slave owner's house with a machete in one hand and a torch or other weapon in the other, to free both my love and the rest of the slaves.

This one is not comfortable with the thought of her children becoming slaves. So, no.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Oh man, I wasn't even considering that.

With that added in, I don't think there are any circumstances on the planet that would make myself sell myself (and all my children, and all my children's children...) into slavery.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

If children are problem, then don't make babies. That shouldn't be too hard.

But the point though, is that he won't, as per the deal. In any case, there are still only two options: live for yourself, or give yourself up to be with who you love.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:07:18 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

So then did you miss the second argument, that the master proves he does not truly have your best interests at heart by remaining a master instead of freeing you?

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

This one somewhat doubts that contraception was avaliable in medieval Russia=)

Exactly. The mere fact that he can, and that he considers possibility of doing so important enough that he wants to keep it.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Okay, considering how we're only really giving a shit about the status here, i'll make some ridiculous situation where the master may not believe it's in it's slave's best interests:

• The slave doesn't have a home. All of it's family is dead anyway.
• The government doesn't give a shit about its quality of life, so for all we know it will be shot on sight and no one will care if it isn't under the master's protection.
• It is a very pretty person that happens to be rather weak at the same time which is extremely vulnerable to rape from anyone.
• The slave cannot survive alone unless it steals and does other insane things for food and water. Maybe shelter. If it's lucky. Or it could just sell itself as a prostitute I guess. But I wouldn't say that would be any better at this point, even if it's just status-wise.
• Leaving it free but under some foster home or some shit like that may lead to the foster parents being total assholes who essentially act like the most stereotypical slave owners ever.
• The slave is an accused criminal that is under the threat of death penalty.
• You allow the slave to live with you in your super fancy awesome security military-base worthy castle that is over nine thousand times more durable than an M1 Abrams. (Damn, I want a place like that...)
• You do not actually make the slave do anything beyond minor things for its own safety (like, I don't know, "don't go outside when there are rapists with artillery threatening you at the front door") and are simply keeping it under that status so people won't care about it.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:41:30 AM by Edmania

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

I'll have to bank on consequentialism here. He doesn't separate us anyhow, so why should that matter? If it's the man's character we are calling into question, then it does matter, but that isn't exactly the point. The point is that you live with your loved one, in exchange for your freedoms.

Sex isn't necessary though. And besides... there's more than one way to make love, milady... ways which we might enjoy...

(I won't lie, I've always wanted to say something like this to my crush... Creepy? Y/N?)

Even so, as I long as I know that he never will, that is enough for me. He's still evil though. But that is irrelevant to my situation.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that stuff.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:56:07 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

@Ed: With any of those, it would work just as well if the master freed the slave beforehand, so it's still evil to keep the slave a slave. EDIT: Ooh, except for the death penalty one. I would say to that that just because you have the legal status of slave doesn't mean necessarily that you're actually a slave; it's just that to not be a slave the master has to give up any right to order you around, and no master TMA has mentioned has done that.

In any case, like I've already said, comfort doesn't matter.

Because he can never be truly benevolent while he's still your master. What he wants will always be an influence on what you can do, and that's unacceptable. You will essentially be working for his happiness in exchange for your own.

If he cares about your happiness, and you can only achieve happiness with your own action and not anybody else's, he is inescapably bound to free you. If he doesn't free you, he doesn't care about your happiness, and it's as inexcusable to sell someone your happiness as it is to sell someone your life.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:50:40 AM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

I'm not seeing why that's the case.

Wait, I suppose if you live in such an awesome castle there's no reason. The government probably won't drop an atomic bomb on you several times or something just for one criminal. I'm not sure if atomic weapons could even destroy the castle.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:51:50 AM by Edmania

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

True, but that doesn't change the focus of the question. The question concerns a moral agent who must decide between what you consider the worst possible life (which is what I originally called into question), in exchange for being with their lover, or going their own way.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:51:52 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

A few examples:

• The slave doesn't have a home. All of it's family is dead anyway.
  • So free it(it?) and give "it" shelter.
• The government doesn't give a shit about its quality of life, so for all we know it will be shot on sight and no one will care if it isn't under the master's protection.
  • There are much better ways to solve this than slavery. In any case, again, legal status of slave is not necessarily the same as actually being a slave.
• It is a very pretty person that happens to be rather weak at the same time which is extremely vulnerable to rape from anyone.
  • So protect her yourself. Don't enslave her, that's just silly.

EDIT: If you're asking me to answer the question, I already said going your own way in any circumstance. (Why? Because as a slave, your lover is effectively dead. If you can free her from the outside go ahead, but enslaving yourself for her sake is pointless.)

I don't know what you're saying if you're not asking me to answer the question.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:55:34 AM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

At the point where we're at "legal status of slave doesn't count alone" I don't have a reason to go on.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:54:42 AM by Edmania

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

Then would you make exception if a person were legally a slave, but not actually treated or considered by the "master" as such?

edited 5th Mar '11 11:55:23 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Yes, but remember this means that the master is really not a master at all.

He can't give any orders, even orders "for the slave's own good". He can't affect the slave's life in any way. He must be a master only and entirely as a signature on a piece of paper; he should not be any more involved in the slave's life than if the slave forged the relevant papers himself.

To extend the government analogy, he'd be rather like a constitutional monarch.

edited 5th Mar '11 11:59:55 AM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

I did specify orders though:

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

Because I'm just now beginning to get you meant all that to be commected, why can't you let this person live in your megafortress without being a slave? I'd think the megafortress is more important to the slavery for their safety.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

Nothing creepy with that

If that is the question, then probably yes. Though working hard and buying their freedom is still a better option.

Although if this one was a slave, she would not want such fate upon her beloved. So she'd probably won't accept such sacrifice anyway. If such sacrifice is accepted, it makes this one doubt that the slave was worthy of love in the first place. I mean, being willing to see your beloved enslaved only that they'd stay with you? Looks very selfish to me.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

The original topic for me is ridiculously difficult to answer based on the options it gives.

It specifies the boy/girl of my dreams, who could only ever be a slave to an omnipotent being, which would probably never do anything as pointless as selling the person to me.

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

Moved per request

That's kind of circular though. It sounds sort of like "A master is evil and an evil master is an evil master".

I would feel terrible for bringing my loved one to slavery, but I also wouldn't leave my loved one to slavery either. Still, I would consider the situation where I give up myself for love to be the better one. The alternative would be living a life of separation, whilst my loved one suffers alone. It would be a slavery in its own right. Of the two bad situations, the more loving one is better. Even in suffering, at least there would be the love. Outside of that would be desolation, regret, and emptiness in general.

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Not when you take into account I'm using two different senses of the word "master".

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1