General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Do people not like wisps? I thought that, for the most part, they worked really well.

@Bleye: They're a subpar replacement for skill-based alternate paths for the most part.

Again, the only reason they were so well-received at first was because they are a part of the main gameplay. They were a godsend compared to Hunting and Werehog.

They annoy me mainly because I loved Sonic CD's opening. I love it when Sonic uses his natural abilities. I love seeing him running through the desert in Sonic Heroes opening, and it's why I love the high-speed segments in 2006, clunky and frustrating as they were. I loved Sonic 2K16's footage of Sonic racing through a destroyed city. Sonic's speed is his main weapon.

Which makes the Wisps redundant - they're substitutions for what Sonic is already perfectly capable of doing on his own, as shown by Sonic CD. Rocketing through the air, gaining a burst of speed, tunneling through rock? Sonic already did these things. Mario does not suddenly gain boots that let him double jump or stomp the ground - he gets cat suits, leaves that let him glide, flowers that let him shoot fireballs.

They bug me because they were part of an era where we just had to keep giving Sonic new partners/powers to substitute his natural abilities - we give him a sword he didn't really need, we give him a werehog form he didn't need, we give him an electric tether watch that he didn't really need.

They symbolize an era where Sonic games kept getting lighter and more childish in tone with each installment, with unnecessary characters like Chip (Tails) and Professor Pickle (Tails) cropping up, story and level design I wasn't particularly fond of. That's why I don't like them.

Coincidentally enough, Planet Wisp was probably the most frustrating level in Sonic Generations.

edited 29th Aug '16 12:43:32 PM by Soble

To be fair, level design wise Planet Wisp in Generations is very much unlike Planet Wisp in Colors.

As for the Wisps themselves, I never had too much of a problem with the elemental shields in the Classic games, and I'm not about to complain about Mario having powerups that let him fly over stages entirely, so I don't have a problem with the Wisps. Though I do agree that I preferred them when they were supplementing a stage with their own segments rather than replacing the stage's normal platforming. Laser in general was just kind of blah.

The only Wisp that wholly gave Sonic an ability he (or, at least, the series as a whole) already had was Spike - which could arguably be considered "Knuckles mode." You could compare Hover to Tails with an aerial light dash, but since Tails almost never has complete flight under the player's control it's not a great comparison. The others - Rocket's super jump, Cube's P-switch, Laser's what-is-essentially-guided-teleportation, Drill's maneuvering within stages - are all unique to the series.

edited 29th Aug '16 1:07:36 PM by KnownUnknown

I don't Sonic ever had the ability to turn into a block before.

Also, I think I prefer Sonic, a series that has generally been marketed toward children, to be childish in tone than when it was attempting to be super edgy. Neither extreme is great, but at least one of them you know you're not supposed to take seriously.

edited 29th Aug '16 1:23:59 PM by Odd1

Sonic should already be able to jump ridiculously high, that's shown in a bunch of cutscenes - he can take off at high speed and leap at the right moment, he can charge his Spin Dash before an incline.

Sonic could already drill through solid rock/metalwork on his own, He can even do this while underwater in Hydrocity Zone.

Laser is basically Light Speed Dash (ignoring natural abilities, there was Chaos Control).

Asteroid is basically a flashier depiction of Sonic tearing through the terrain. The rhythm wisp is the bounce bracelet. And the yellow and red wisps are replacements for the electric and fire shield. And while its just headcanon, Sonic's Insta-Shield seems to imply he can project some form of electricity.

Each their own. I can take it when something is light-hearted and simple (Sonic 1-Sonic Blast-Sonic Riders). There is a limit on how childish the tone can be before I'm disinterested (Colors-Lost World). Neither extreme is great but Eggman's degeneration from threatening villain to Butt-Monkey, and most of Sonic and Tails's dialogue really bother me.

I'm actually having trouble finding that one.

These boots or the Super Boots? Granted, they do let Mario do something he could already do, but this was also one of the RPG's where they kind of have to recycle some of Mario's basic abilities to provide the player with a sense of progression.

edited 29th Aug '16 1:49:49 PM by Soble

He needed the Wisps because otherwise the game would be broken as heck.

I'm going to need a specific example of him doing that.

For one, if he's launching off of a ramp at high speeds, that's not a jump in the sense that we've been talking about, neither from a narrative nor a gameplay perspective.

Rocket has him going straight up to scale a large vertical height (and then floating down afterwards), whereas what you're talking about is used for horizontal distance - and, for that matter, is a natural ability Sonic has in Colors, albeit with running rather than spinning. To compare, CD's opening has him fall down a mountain, then hit a curved incline and then use the momentum to launch into the distance. Not only does he not actually jump in that scene, but it still wouldn't be a Rocket-style super jump even if he did.

On the other hand, to add another Wisp that does something Sonic already can do to the one, I forgot the White Boost Wisp. But given what a mess Boosting made out of Unleashed's gameplay before they refined it in Generations, I didn't miss it, and the game's level design doesn't typically center around constant boost and thus it works better in that context to be something you have to pick up.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:03:53 PM by KnownUnknown

Nineteen seconds in he leaps from the ravine and proceeds to bounce (Bounce Wisp) down a hill.

28 seconds, leaping over and between rock structures.

53 seconds, leaping between debris from a destroyed mountaintop and spin-dashing through one gigantic chunk of it, leaping off of that and running along the mountain.

Minute and 10 seconds in, look at where Sonic is in relation to the chain leading to the Miracle Planet.

But that's all Sonic using his momentum. Team Sonic's opening in Sonic Heroes, first 4 seconds.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:15:28 PM by Soble

Let's disregard the fact that Sonic is hella inconsistent anyway

but please explain how you'd possibly create a balanced game if sonic could do all of that willy-nilly

Actually, what he does is run off the edge, then use the curve of a the ravine as a loop and use the momentum to carry him to the other side. He doesn't bounce.

Quick hop over obstacles, performable by Sonic in Colors, essential to clearing Terminal Velocity which has no wisps.

Uses falling/moving debris to "climb" a distance - he's not jumping the full distance, he's using each piece of debris to spring him to the next one. He does this several ties in Colors, Unleashed and Generations under his own power.

That's a wall jump. The distance is great, but it's not greater than most other time's he's been able to do it in-game.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:29:04 PM by KnownUnknown

Alright, I guess he still can't vertically ascend very far all on his own. It's an ability that's already filled in by Tails. Considering Sonic already has the ability to move at incredible speeds, leap from and run on walls, propel himself from ordinary ramps and inclines and even run upside-down, how useful is an alien creature that lets him rocket into the air for 10-15 seconds?

He can't fly under his own power true, but he really shouldn't need to given everything else he can do just with his momentum.

It's like Kratos or any really strong character who can shatter walls/stone in their video game, but they need to complete a really obtuse weight/logic puzzle to open a door when they should be perfectly capable of lifting the door themselves. Or if the floor's caved in, just leap the gap, or climb across the wall.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:20:27 PM by Soble

As useful as the game's mechanics make it.

Kratos isn't a great comparison, because this isn't an example of a character being unable to use abilities they've been shown having previously in the game's narrative (which has been an acceptable break for gamers for years, especially in games like GOW that keep giving its main character ridiculous powerups, but that's digressing), it's him having an additional ability and connected gameplay mechanics/level design to accommodate it.

Much like the spin-dash in the first place. Or basically all of Sonic's abilities that don't involve rolling and jumping (including the elemental shields, which much like the wisps didn't really stick around). Platform games as a genre are built upon creating new platforming challenges for characters and then creating new mechanics and abilities for use in traversing those challenges. Mario, as noted, has basically given its protagonist an almost entirely new additional powerset in every game since the second one, and has often discarded them because they have a more interesting idea for the next one. The Rocket wisp is useful in Colors and Generations because those games have mechanics that use that ability to its fullest.

And in answering whether a rocket jump is useful to Sonic in the sense of his general abilities in a narrative sense (ignoring then that it's by design a temporary ability), I'd say yes as well, because it's definitely an ability he doesn't have even though he faces a lot of enemies that can fly. An advantage Eggman has used against him in the past, albeit not as often as he really should.

I'd have to ask again: besides Spike and Boost, like what?

edited 29th Aug '16 2:28:22 PM by KnownUnknown

As one who just discovered this thread I jump in the discussion: in my opinion, Sonic can do the stuff most Wisps grant him in the game, but for gameplay reasons they don't let him do that stuff freely. Short version: MST3K Mantra. I would have really liked a game when you can do this stuff without Wisps though.

Well, for example the he can do the Green Wisp Lightspeed Dash on his own. He doesn't fly of course, but he can use Tails for these things. And the Cyan Wisp that lets him move at lightning speed, I think a similar mechanic could have been implemented without using them, hypotetically speaking of course.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:31:11 PM by Lampodigenio

Sonic has never had a ability like laser in game. At best, there's chaos control, but that's only ever been a usable ability once (and in that case, it didn't work the way laser does).

The way it's used is similar to the teleportation stones from Sky Sanctuary, plus the ability to hurt enemies, but those were objects in a stage.

You could say it's similar to light-ring-dash, but let's get into that: the light-dash is something Sonic could do, and it is given to the Green Wisp, but it's also a periphery ability that the series has been moving away from for some time - it's not essential for completing any of the levels it's in in Colors, or even getting most of the secret stuff in those levels, and is really just there for flavor (which makes sense, since the lightdash is basically a set-piece that the player has to press a button to use). It's like how Generations only has light dash in, like, two stages, and even then only for nostalgia. The ability itself is superfluous, so they just made it a superfluous extra on top of the Hover wisps primary ability - which is flight: something Sonic cannot do.

It's like how Generations only has light dash in, like, two stages, and even then only for nostalgia. The ability itself is superfluous, so they just made it a superfluous extra on top of the Hover wisps actual primary ability and influence on gameplay - which is flight, something Sonic can't do.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:45:43 PM by KnownUnknown

Finding examples of this is hard because Sonic's world is one giant Rude Goldberg machine and every one of Sonic's jumps is "amplified" by a bumper or a speed ramp.

But here's some:

• Sonic leaping really far in the OVA, high enough and fast enough to narrowly stay ahead of Metal who is accelerating at a speed equal/possibly greater than Sonic.
• Vertical Jump in 06, Kingdom Valley mach speed stage.
• Metal Sonic blasting the bridge and Classic Sonic leaping off a single piece of debris. He's jumping the full distance.

And again, Sonic can still overcome vertical challenges without a vertical jump enhancement. Using his momentum is far more valid to me than creating a new companion to bestow Sonic with rocket jump.

It's an ability that he logically should have. Kratos starts climbing walls in God of War 2 by just sticking his weapons into walls and ceilings. He still has puzzles where he can't cross a gap and refuses to use that mode of travel. Sonic has regularly ascended tall structures under his own power, running up them, using the terrain, using machinery. We regularly see him leap great horizontal distances, it'd be less sensible if he couldn't do that vertically - just every chance he gets is ignored by placing a bumper in his path.

But they never abandon or ignore a few basic moves: Mario always/usually has a Fire Flower, Mushrooms make him larger (even if there are more mushroom types), Mario can almost always extend his jump if the player holds the button, he's usually got a double jump.

Looking at it as a staple of the genre might be logical, but it still doesn't make me like or see the necessity of the Wisps as a mechanic. I would still rather have Sonic's abilities be explored (like how Unleashed had beautiful mach speed segments via the boost meter, how Lost World gave him parkour) then have Sonic gain a new ability like ice and fire manipulation because of a new companion.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:50:14 PM by Soble

They don't do that in Sonic either.

You're seem to be assuming that because Sonic can do X thing, he should be able to do Y different thing even though he doesn't actually show the capacity to do so. Which is tenuous logic and brings me to my response to this:

That finding examples is hard is exactly why we can't just assume Sonic has the power to do it. That it's not impossible is not the same as it being something he should logically have, especially in this case. Keep in mind that a vertical jump tends to involve creating momentum rather than using the momentum one currently has, unless one uses a vertical ramp (which is distinct from what Rocket does). Sonic does often break conservation of momentum, but the whole point of Rocket is that it's a kind of vertical power that Sonic games had yet to show.

All of your examples are largely horizontal jumps (even the mach speed one, even given the much maligned physics issues with mach speed in 06), amplified by his momentum, which he can do on his own in Colors.

The OVA is a different story - I adore the OVA, but OVA Sonic is not game Sonic (he can also Flash Step, something game Sonic has never been able to do). I wouldn't count Sonic X or the Archieverse either.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:59:02 PM by KnownUnknown

I see what you mean, it's a very good explanation. Still, I'm not against the idea of giving Sonic power-ups, like you said there have been the shields before, it's they way they choose to give him power-ups. At least in my opinion, making him transform in order to give him various abilities thanks to alien power, it's a little weird when they could have implemented them in a different way without necessairly changing the story: you could still have Sonic who saves the aliens without them actually having these powers with the exceptions of having big amounts of energy in order to not change the plot. I have more problems with the execution than the concept in itself. It's not a ripoff of Mario, but it still sounds not very original.

edited 29th Aug '16 2:56:29 PM by Lampodigenio

I'm confused by your prerequisites here, but Classic Sonic's was not a horizontal jump or amplified by momentum, he fell straight down after Metal broke the roadway and leapt off a single chunk of it. Not leaping between the debris like in CD, not leaping horizontally through different chunks.

In the 2006 example, Sonic comes to a dead stop when he's on that floating boulder and proceeds to leap upward. He has to change direction, cancel his momentum, and he still leaps straight from one structure to the next.

It is not the same action as the Wisp transforming him into a rocket, but it is the same effect. Sonic is capable of moving vertically a great distance under his own power.

If he is capable of moving at these speeds and covering these distances horizontally, why is not logical that he can do the same vertically? Is it taking less energy for him to leap an incredible distance horizontally/vertically than just vertically? Is he facing less resistance?

I'm not convinced Sonic's super-speed couldn't have been used instead of the Rocket, Boost, Spike, Asteroid, Quake, Lightning, and Burst Wisps.

edited 29th Aug '16 3:12:38 PM by Soble

Right, forgot about that one: well, Classic Sonic's jump is higher than his usual jump, but it's nowhere near Rocket-level high - though it's admittedly difficult to gauge because of EPIC CAMERA ANGLES!!!

Also, that game came out after Colors. Even if you tried to use that as justification, you'd have to be making the case that it's an ability that Generations gave him.

Which I assume is one of the reasons they threw out a lot of Mach Speed's physics nuances immediately after that game, and in particular started using the homing attack for scenes like that (or had them flow more quickly) after Unleashed. That entire scene looks really janky and clashes with Sonic's general momentum-based aesthetic. Homing attack breaks conservation of momentum, true, but it does so in a way that flows.

In the same scene, he comes to a dead stop on running, falling water and then runs forward without moving at all, which if we take it seriously would imply some sort of power over not only his inertia but the inertia of objects around him. Which, admittedly, would be fun to talk about.

Something else I just thought of: Rocket often functions as a super-jump but actually is a rocket - it provides continuous propulsion and can push Sonic through solid objects in a way he would usually (as in the CD intro) need the assistance of gravity to do.

edited 29th Aug '16 3:31:18 PM by KnownUnknown

Prrretty sure that Sonic 06 came before Sonic Colors.

The game I was talking about, Generations, came out after Colors.

Ups, I must have misunderstood . Some guy in another forum said that Shadow the Hedgehog came after 06, so in comparison it would have been a lesser mistake.

Nah, I was just in the process of editing my post and hadn't clarified at the time. That totally on me.

edited 29th Aug '16 3:27:18 PM by KnownUnknown