This is not a thread for bashing on religion. The forum rules on civility and complaining still apply.
This thread is meant to be a welcoming and inviting place for Atheists, Antitheists, and Agnoists to talk about their beliefs and experiences.
edited 3rd Oct '14 1:27:15 PM by Madrugada
Never mind, someone else said it already.
edited 19th Jun '14 12:44:35 AM by Robotnik
@Fire: How I have had it explained to me is that the "eternal consequences" are that, if you are accepted into heaven by God, then you get to spend eternity with God, but, if you aren't accepted into heaven by God, then you have to spend eternity without God. I'm not exactly opposed to taking the other option. (Another friend of mine has very heterodox views and believes that we are living in hell right now and we can only free the Kingdom of God from within us is through global insurrection against domination and hierarchy to create heaven on earth in the form of anarchy.)
@Xopher: And the Church before Constantine converted to Christianity was very anti-authoritarian in nature, with believers primarily organized into communes in which all were treated as equals and property was shared.
How ironic. Also , your friend 's beliefs remind me of Human Instrumentality
Well, they would probably disagree. To them, from what I understand, there is no physical hell or physical heaven, but Earth is existing in the state of hell and their goal is to turn it into a heaven. This heaven would still be the material Earth, but we would have released the Kingdom of God which exists inside of us and live in a heaven on Earth.
To note, they are an anarchist, like I am myself, and their theology is essentially their personal praxis for creating anarchy.
@deathpigeon: "Hell is the absence of God" has only been a concept since the 18th century or so. The Bible explicitly talks of "everlasting fire." In contrast to some parts of the Bible, that seems pretty clear. This was the doctrine for most of Christianity's history-only in modern times have many people backed away from the idea (and other still hold to it).
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-Philip K. Dick
in fact is the everlasting fire, the idea of hell being the absense of god is pretty much in ancient christiaity, of course the way religion put this is pretty much morton fork, because be we god is good and be far away from him is bad, so you could almost hear god saying "death....by exile"
deathpigon: your friend view are not really that heterodox, the alexandrian school of christianity(the oldest for what i know) pretty much say that earth is heaven but in healing state, that hell is not a place to punish but to heal and soon everyone will be heal
but he also put something he didnt see to well, the fact that people with the vision of the spiritual can`t be question, they just are, you can walk away or belive it but you can say its false
and that is when the authority star
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The Bible doesn't speak of hell. It does speak, however, of judgement day when some will be sent into an everlasting fire in Revelations 20. To quote
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the FALSE prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
-King James Version
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
-New International Version (I would've gone with just this version, but it was a bit ambiguous in Revelations 20:10 where the KJV was less so.)
Now, you'll notice it speaks of a) a lake of fire and b) eternal torment. Let me quote the specific line, both KJV and NIV, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the FALSE prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Now, the NIV, the second quote, is a bit ambiguous because it isn't clear who "they" is referring to in that sentence, but the KJV makes it very clear. The only ones who will be tormented day and night for ever and ever are the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet. Later on it speaks of sinners. About sinners it says "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." for KJV and "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Note how, for the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet, the Bible specifies eternal torment, but, for those whose name was not found written in the book of life, it only specifies they are sent to the lake of fire. It speaks nothing of eternity in torment, and it just finished a passage where it speaks of them dying and having to be resurrected. From what is written, it seems as if they just die rather than go through eternal torment.
I may be an atheist, but I make sure to know my shit as best as possible when it comes to the Bible.
Heterodox doesn't mean they are the only one who hold the view, and I'm pretty certain that the "Alexandrian School" don't envision heaven or how we will go from hell to heaven the same way they do. To them hell is domination and control, what they, and I, for that matter, call social order. They see states, capitalism, the patriarchy, and other hierarchical institution as different forms of the social order/hell we live in now. They think that, through global, and armed, insurrection against each and every one of those social institutions, we can destroy hell and create anarchy/heaven. That is hardly the same as saying the Earth is heaven, but in a healing state.
And that's not the only heterodox view of theirs. They're also a Death of Godist, so they believe that, when Jesus died on the cross, God, the Father, and God, the Holy Spirit, died with him. That's why they think the Kingdom of Heaven is trapped within us, because God died. That is completely heterdox. They're also a Stirnerite egoist, which even I don't know how they manage to combine with Christianity. They are... a rather weird person.
edited 19th Jun '14 6:48:48 PM by deathpigeon
It's true the Bible does not make use of the word "hell" but that is the term for this "everlasting fire" used now. Revelation 20 isn't the verse I was thinking about, but rather Matthew 25:41 (which the text attributes to Jesus himself): "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
edited 20th Jun '14 12:42:23 AM by Fireblood
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-Philip K. Dick
Mikon :3
Don't forget Jesus' parable of the rich man and the beggar
. The rich man dies and is in torment, while the beggar dies and resides with Abraham. I'm no fan of the one percent, but I felt more justification was needed than "you received your good things in life".
EDIT: Not all Christians take its depiction of the afterlife literally, but a literal interpretation is not unheard of.
edited 20th Jun '14 5:53:53 AM by Morgikit
Yes, I almost forgot that one. That depiction is in keeping with the rest, and yeah, talk about your Disproportionate Retribution (of course, I can't think of any sins for which it would proportionate).
edited 20th Jun '14 6:11:12 AM by Fireblood
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-Philip K. Dick
Wow. What an asshole.
Yeah, contrast that with the alleged compassion and love we're told about, eh?
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-Philip K. Dick
Mikon :3
I get the idea that we should be helping the less fortunate, but the beggar suffered at least for a finite time. The rich man will suffer for eternity. So who's more unfortunate there? Punishment is to correct a person's moral failings and make them a better person. But at some point a lesson is learned, and the punishment stops.
literary masochist
From a certain point of view, I suppose it can be considered not as punishment, but simply as a consequence.
Like, getting burned isn't some kind of punishment for touching a hot object, it's just what naturally happens when you do that.
Now whether that's fair is a different matter.
edited 20th Jun '14 8:04:38 AM by KylerThatch
This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...
Which would be fine if they guy we are talking about didn't write reality. The one who decided that this would be the "consequence" was God. He could have made it so that the rich guy was licked by puppies, but noooo.
edited 20th Jun '14 8:29:28 AM by Elfive
@Morgikit: Yes, it seems like God could make the rich man know what it's like to be poor and destitute, even literally have them feel such a person's pain. That would lend them some understanding. Burning for all eternity? How does that help anyone, rich or poor?
@Kyler Thatch: What Elfive said. That's why I think the popular apologetic defense of hell as something the person "chooses" is absurd.
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-Philip K. Dick
Sneering Imperialist
I commonly wonder about atheists and agnostics in third world countries, who are virtually invisible from a media point of view compared to the usual torrent about the members of one sect killing the members of a slightly different sect. Bluntly, I imagine they probably feel like the only sane men and women.
With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Have u guys ever heard the aphorism 'if ur friends jumped off a bridge , would u of it too ? ' when arguing with a particularly fundamentalist person about ur beliefs ?
literary masochist
That's a very common bit of rhetoric. On the surface, it's speaking against appeal to popularity, but unfortunately, the way it's used is sort of an appeal to non-popularity, which is just the same logical fault except in reverse.
edited 27th Jun '14 3:20:58 AM by KylerThatch
This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...
The odd thing it kind of works from both sides. If we take jumping off the bridge to be following religion in this metaphor - a little overly critical but lets just run with it for now - those doing the jumping do so generally because of a perceived threat such as hell, which here we shall have represented by Godzilla.
To the theist, the atheist is merrily wandering along ignoring the giant monster breathing down their neck. To the atheist the theist just randomly leapt off a bridge with their friends ranting about some strange beast.
So before, I had no doubts about my atheism.
But a few days ago, it hit me and I was like "what if I'm wrong and will thus be tortured forever or something?" so now I'm a bit creeped out.
But I'm still an atheist and antitheist.
What if you're wrong and end up with the crappy beer volcano?
Just think about who's idea it was in the first place that there's a spot in hell for atheists (I think it may've been Dante?)
Sneering Imperialist
If there's a god and that's how he treats all but a tiny portion of all the humans that have ever lived, chances are you're fucked anyway, and such a god is worse than every mass-murderer and dictator that's ever lived. Trying to placate such a god would be like an ant trying to placate a boot. Honestly, I'm more creeped out by the prospect of that particular god being treated as kind and benevolent by major religions - not only that, but the most kind, the most benevolent being that can possibly exist, the source of all the good in the world.
So, y'know. If that's the nature of God, I frankly think we as a species have bigger problems, problems so huge they're essentially not worth worrying about because we're all so monumentally fucked.
edited 27th Jun '14 2:30:33 PM by pagad
With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
The way the church is organized is very authoratorial, tho I guess this was more apparent during the Middle Ages