Atheist/Anti-theist/Agnostic Troper Group

Both of those would be examples of not even wrong. Which I don't think is an example of logical fallacy.

Well, you often see arguments such as "Religious person Y did bad thing X. Therefore religion is bad/wrong" or things like that. It's usually more implied than said outright. This would be the Ad Hominem or Association Fallacy. Of course this also gets used against atheism, just see every "Atheists killed millions in the Soviet Union" (or elsewhere) line.

edited 21st Sep '16 10:22:50 PM by Fireblood

See, my logic is:

Ideally, one should only believe things that are true

I don't think religion is true

=> I don't think one should believe in religion.

edited 22nd Sep '16 1:58:13 AM by Elfive

To elaborate on that logical fallacy:

• Large-scale organized religion has harmful effects. (We'll disregard the fact that I'm not providing details on exactly how it's harmful or any evidence to support this, and just take it as a given for the sake of the argument.)
• Large-scale atheism does not, or at least it has significantly less harmful effects. (Again, disregard the assumption for the moment.)
• Therefore, people should be atheists.

This logic disregards the difference between what is beneficial and what is true. I can't choose to believe something just because I think the situation of me believing it would have beneficial effects. If an idea seems self-evidently false to me, I'm simply not going to believe it, no matter how beneficial it would be to believe it.

edited 22nd Sep '16 2:24:06 PM by SolipSchism

Of course, that comparison between the (presumed) benefits and negative effects of large-scale theism and atheism also gets used as an argument against atheism very often - with theism presented as the more beneficial/less harmful one. Most atheists, of course, react as you do: by pointing out that even if we took those claims on face value, they would not be valid claims about the truth of either stance.

I share your logic, Elfive.

Solip Schism, you nailed it. It's okay to argue over whether or not one is better than the other, it just easily gets tangled up with the question whether atheism is *true* or not.

As you say, Best Of. If atheism were the most negative thing in the world (as some theists appear to believe) it could still be true, or vice versa.

Anyone familiar with Jerry Coyne?

I'm looking him up on Rational Wiki right now.

I'm agnostic Christian of sorts. Oxymoronic I know.

I don't think so. I've even heard of the occasional atheist christian.

After attending two Jewish weddings, I really, really, really want to be a secular Jew. Like, retain my agnostic beliefs, but adhere to Jewish traditions (in the way that tons of people observe Christmas and Easter even if they're not Christian) and be a part of the Jewish community. Because they're so much fun. (I mean, yes, my only extensive interaction with them has been at two lavish weddings that most of the same people attended, so it's really just one particular group that I've interacted with twice at events where they were predisposed to be pleasant. But still.)

...But I'm pretty sure that's not a thing. I think you can only be a secular Jew if you were born into the community. :(

edited 8th Nov '16 3:47:29 PM by SolipSchism

I'm afraid that's probably true. If you know how to get in touch with a rabbi in your area you might want to try to get in touch, but basically the most likely outcome is that either you're in for the religion or you're not in at all. "Cultural" - or ethnic - Jews grow up in that culture. (I had "cultural" in quotes because that term is sometimes used to refer to non-religious Jews even if they don't practice.)

Of course you could try marrying a Jew and getting into the culture that way. They won't accept you as a convert, though. (Your kids will be counted as ethnic Jews, though.)

I mean I know you can't be ethnically Jewish without being born that way. Eh, I suppose I'll just have to settle to being married to a guy who gets invited to all the cool Jewish events. Sadly, all his Jewish friends live in New York, so I won't really get to hang out with them on a regular basis, only at special events, but still.

Can I just note that I cannot refrain from bawling my eyes out at the Hora (the chair dance, where the crowd lifts the newlyweds up on chairs)? I may have been drunk when I figured out why, but I still think the reason is legit: It's because it feels like an expression of pure happiness. Everything else is tempered with something (which is fine): sadness, sobriety, solemnity, whatever.

But this particular Hora (because I can't seem to find a name for this particular dance) is just excited joy. Nothing else. Well, and love. But it's not tempered with anything that takes away from the happiness. It's not the kind of happiness that makes you think "Let's be happy now because tomorrow is going to be hard." It doesn't even think about tomorrow. It's just happy. And that's not a feeling you get to feel very often.

edited 9th Nov '16 8:22:12 AM by SolipSchism

Women can convert to Judaism (and men can't), but I'm not sure if that conversion is only accepted if it's associated with a marriage (ie, a non-Jew marrying a Jew). Perhaps they're loose enough that they'll let you convert. They will probably expect you to get pretty into the Torah and the rest of the religion, though - that comes with converting to a religion. You could just take it as culture and keep your doubts about the truth value of the stories and entities you're expected to believe to yourself - but that feels dishonest, at least to me, so you'd have to figure out whether that's something you'd want to go through.

Uh. No.

I'm not a dishonest person.

The only way I'd even try it is if there were a legitimate way to become a part of the community without converting to the religion or engaging in what would basically be a marriage of convenience.

I would want it to be very clear that my religious views haven't changed, and obviously I don't have the same ethnic background, I just feel a sense of kinship with them and would very much like to identify with their community as something more than just "a non-Jew who is weirdly fond of the Jewish community".

And obviously I'm totally uneducated on the subject, I haven't really done any research other than being to two Jewish weddings, hanging out with some Jews, and Googling some things. So when I say "I feel a sense of kinship" I really mean just that. It's purely an emotional thing.

I wonder just how weird this sounds. I can't really get a sense of perspective on it because I've never heard anything quite like it. I've never heard anyone say "Man I'm not LGBT but I really want to be part of the LGBT community, and I don't just mean as an Ally, I mean I actually want to be LGBT but also cisgender and heterosexual". I wonder if anyone feels like that.

edited 9th Nov '16 9:01:44 AM by SolipSchism

Alright. This is what I would also say, and I am glad to hear that you agree. Granted, there might be a rabbi somewhere who would take you in as a student of the cultural tradition of Judaism and adopt you into the culture in that way, but for most people the association with the ethnic heritage and/or faith would probably be essential, and that's something you should not fake, IMO. (I still wanted to mention the possibility because others might have a different view on these matters.)

But yes, I get what you're saying.

I think I partially understand what you mean with the kinship. Sometimes when I read British literature or watch British TV or talk to British people I feel that that's the proper context for me, and that I'm more at home there than I am with Finnish literature or people. I'm not British, though; my parents and grandparents (and almost certainly their grandparents) are/were all Finnish, and I've not lived in the UK (or anywhere else outside of Finland) for more than a couple of months. I've learned English as a second language, with no one in my family speaking it at home or anything. Still, sometimes I feel that it's my language more than Finnish is, and whenever I write something just for myself it's in English.

Granted, for me this connection goes all the way back to my childhood and the media I would have consumed then, as well as a long-lasting fascination with and immersion to English-speaking cultures (especially of the UK), so it's not just a couple of events that have reached me. I suspect that it's still similar, in many ways, to your experience.

To a point, yeah. Although it's very possible to become British without having any tangible connection to British culture, language, history, etc. You can get British citizenship, learn to speak English (obviously I'm speaking in generalities, since you obviously speak English)—hell, you can even learn to speak with a British accent, you can learn British history and really engross yourself in British culture. And with the exception of a certain type of bigot who thinks more of blood than of culture, pretty much everyone would agree that that would make you British.

There's not really any Jewish equivalent that I can think of. (And by extension, since this isn't "The Jewish Coven", an equivalent for any other religious or ethnic group I can think of.) Because Israel notwithstanding, Jews are more a religion and/or an ethnic group than a nation. It's easy to become part of a nation (relatively speaking). Notsomuch with a religion or an ethnic group. And if you do include Israel, well, I'm pretty sure being Jewish is, in fact, a requisite for citizenship in Israel, so.

edited 9th Nov '16 9:53:47 AM by SolipSchism

Yeah. Jew, actually, seems one of the harder cultural identities to appropriate; and of course it's always problematic when people seek to appropriate identities if they don't genuinely feel a belonging to them. (This is why I wouldn't call myself British, even if I lived there for a while, until I actually got citizenship.)

Israel also has lots of Palestinian residents, some of whom are citizens. They're usually called "Arabs" (which is insulting in its own right) but if I'm not mistaken the nationality they'll have printed on their passport is "Jew". That, of course, is worse still.

I thought being an ethnic Jew or a recognized member of the Jewish religion was an actual, codified requirement for citizenship in Israel?

Israel defines itself as a Jewish state - it's conceived as the only state exclusively for Jews. That sort of goal was never realistic, though, and currently about 20% of the population are Muslim.

I tried to look up that "Jew" as demonym thing I mentioned earlier, but couldn't find it - so it's probably not true. The passport just says "Israeli".

EDIT: I forgot to add that yes, all Jews are entitled to Israeli citizenship, and that's the primary way people acquire Israeli citizenship. It's not the only way, though - just the most common (by far).

edited 9th Nov '16 10:29:47 AM by BestOf

Oh, I had it backwards. I guess it's not that you have to be Jewish to become an Israeli citizen—it's that being Jewish guarantees you Israeli citizenship should you apply for it.

Jerry Coyne, anyone? Anyone got opinions about that guy?

Who?

This guy:

Not advocating for him or talking against him, just wanting to hear anyone's thoughts if this inspires new ones.

Faith is not a virtue, obviously, but,

So far this is just a list of talking points. So, I don't have an opinion.

Okay. I don't agree with those points primarily.

I don't think science and religion is compatible. But in a sort of complex way. Religion is a theory. Each religion is a different theory. The establishment of religion is incompatible with science, because they staunchly support their pet theory no matter what, whereas I'd jump ship to a different religious theory if my current religious theory was disproved by science.

He made a statement applicable to natural science but not science in general. -1 points.

He is right to point out that religious belief and scientific belief are incompatible as belief systems. But is essentially walking around the main point. Religious activity and scientific activity are separate. Scientific activity creates new knowledge for us, which we can then apply to our advantage. Religious activity creates a family for us, allows a venue of job networking, and allows a vehicle for mobilisation for making community efforts.

edited 10th Nov '16 11:41:27 AM by war877