Subjectives and Objectives mixed together: Excuse Plot

Alright, so I took a look at Excuse Plot yesterday from the perspective of determining if it should be considered a YMMV. What I found was... disturbing.

There's a semi-sort of objective trope in there, which is Video Games whose plots are there solely to dress up the gameplay. However, the trope has also accumulated a frankly huge number of non-game examples which vary widely in quality. What is unquestionable is that most of them are, indeed, subjective.

Let's start with the first section, Anime & Manga:

• Excel Saga has the organization that the eponymous character works for trying to take over a city. Nothing goes right, as it seems to be an excuse for the creator to just make each episode as weird as possible.  ^*
  ^{The manga delves into the takeover attempts further, but the anime was devoted to parody, and, as it happens, one of the things it parodied were anime that had little to do with the source manga.}
  
  Misuse, falls into the "judgement call" category.
• A good 70% of Hentai fall into this. Lower than most porn, yes, but still pretty darn high.
  Generalized example, should be in the description. Also we have PWP for this.
• Fist Of The North Star. Ecological devastation? Masses of radiation-poisoned people dying in agony? Chaos in the wake of destroyed infrastructures? Radicalized environmental movements? Desperate members of old power structures scrambling to salvage their pieces of the pie? Tribalism? Survivalism? Nihilism? Whatever, man. We just want to see Kenshiro kick massive bad guy butt without any pesky laws or governments getting in his way.
  Misuse, talks about the viewers rather than the story, and sounds more like Waste of Time Story instead.

Comics:

• The Marvel vs. DC Comics had the anthropomorphic personifications of the DC and Marvel Multiverses forcing the Marvel and DC characters to fight each other to determine which universe is better. This (and a character whose sole power is monitoring the random mergings of the universe) also covers other cross overs, or any comic where the whole plot is just and excuse to pit <Character A> vs <Character B> either in a cross company crossover or just having Spider-Man fight Daredevil.
  • Or presumably, two characters who haven't spent decades in the same continuity.
  • Or just an excuse for DC and Marvel to create a series of character mashups.
    Valid example, maybe. The "What Ifs" and crossovers are indeed mainly excuses to get a Who Would Win going.
• The plot of quite of number of Jack Chick works is a fairly thin excuse to get to the Easy Evangelism.
  Sounds like a judgement call as well as a Take That!, and this is pretty much covered in Author Tract anyway.

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See the problem? Some thoughts off the top of my head for fixing it:

1. Strip out all non-game examples. Savagely vet the games to make sure they fit and aren't just complaining.
2. Declare the trope YMMV.
3. Example Sectionectomy.

Thoughts?

edited 14th Feb '11 12:39:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

My favorite option is the option 1.

Given the definition, I don't know how anything other than a video game could ever fit this concept.

I also believe that, as a Video Game Trope, that this should be deemed objective.

1. and keep a close eye on it. I wouldn't mind curating it once it's cut back to the actual objective trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I am willing to realize the starting cut, of the non-games in the own main page.

This. Everything in a story is part of the plot, even if it is not interesting, or original.

The only way this trope can apply, if there are other things in the work than storytelling.

The only common way to have that is if there other things in a work than a story, for example gameplay.

Though the other folders like Board Games, theme parks, and even Theatre could also stay, because just like video games, they also fill the missing story with other forms of entertainment.

edited 14th Feb '11 2:10:23 PM by EternalSeptember

I can see keeping board games, and theme parks. I mean, clue has an excuse plot. So does the Rockin' Roller Coaster at Epcot. That does mean that the page needs to be curated strictly. I can manage it though.

The theatre examples really don't apply having seen them. No more than a normal musical would count.

edited 14th Feb '11 2:15:18 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Well, what about Here Comes The Grump: the whole point of the cartoon is that there's a group of protagonists being chased by the Grump, but there had to be some justification for the Stern Chase, so they included an arbitrary backstory about a MacGuffin and a magical kingdom under a curse. None of it is ever explored; it's just a reason for the bad guy to chase the good guys and for the good guys to run away instead of trying to hide, and they occasionally mention it in passing in their conversation.

edited 14th Feb '11 2:15:39 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

I would say the Excel Saga Anime one is correct you get the setup and the intro in the first episode and it rarely is ever connected to anything that goes on in the next 24 episodes it even lampshades this on occasion.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

The things that Excel Saga later focuses on are still plot. Maybe not coherent plot, or related to the setup, but as long as it's part of a story, it is plot.

Yep. Excel Saga has a plot. Its silly, and incoherent, but it's a plot. It doesn't qualify for the Excuse Plot trope which is a few lines of plot and then game play, or a roller coaster ride. Mortal Kombat has an Excuse Plot.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

People are confusing this trope with similar ones. We can cut all non-relevant examples as poster #3 suggested, and add a "see similar tropes X, Y and Z" to the article and stress the difference between this trope and Waste of Time Story.

Mortal Kombat is iffy. I'm not sure whether it would go in Excuse Plot, Waste of Time Story or both.

edited 14th Feb '11 2:35:20 PM by Redhead

The new It Just Bugs Me!

1, curate, and clean the wicks.

I've only played it in the Arcades where the story only appears when you aren't playing the game. It seems like an Excuse Plot there at least.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I didn't know. I only played a couple of console versions, where every character has an elaborate, convoluted backstory. We could probably put the arcade version in Excuse Plot and the console version in Waste of Time Story.

edited 14th Feb '11 3:24:29 PM by Redhead

The new It Just Bugs Me!

The console version did that as well. The series just evolved from one trope to the other.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

That would work. Not the first time there would be a discrepancy between the two.

edited 14th Feb '11 3:29:02 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Maybe make the title clear that it is about videogames? I didn't look, but I'm suspecting a lot of the wicks are going to be about plots people didn't like in any kind of medium and genre.

edited 14th Feb '11 3:48:48 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

Gaming Excuse Plot? (also works with Board Games, if needed)

Just for bad snowcloning, Screw The Plot, I've Got Game?

edited 14th Feb '11 3:53:52 PM by Balmung

I wouldn't mind a rename. I do think the trope can be objective. It's just going to take some tightening and a rename could help.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Game First Plot Second?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

My intent in introducing the trope was indeed something objective that applies to video games. There even used to be something explaining how it's a seperate variable from Story to Gameplay Ratio. Now it's wound up off-track and reads more like a problem trope attempting to justify its own existence...

So yeah, I vote 1. — Pteryx

Well, all the votes by far were to the option 1. As i said before i am willing to remove all the non-gaming examples of the Excuse Plot page. Can i start?

Yeah, go for it. We also need a wick cleanup crew. The article description needs to be modified to emphasize that it is a Games trope only. There should be a No non-gaming examples, period. statement in big bold type.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

OK, already cleaned the non-gaming examples of the Excuse Plot page. Now exist only two folders there: The video games one and the board games one.

edited 15th Feb '11 3:26:19 PM by MagBas