Of Death threats and Dickwolves

@Fighteer: I didn't see any of the blogs on the issue call for the restriction of their free speech. They didn't threaten court action if the strip wasn't pulled or for laws to stop Penny Arcade from ever mentioning rape again. All I read was them saying "this was hurtful, don't do this". Freedom of speech works for both sides, PA and the bloggers.

That's why I find the t-shirts to be odd and distasteful; they specifically are being used to say "I have the freedom to offend rape victims". It's a really weird facet of freedom of speech to defend.

I don't see what's so weird about it. Offensiveness is one of the facets of free speech that needs the most defense, because it's constantly under attack. It's the front line of defense against opponents of free speech.

On the other hand, Tongpu, was anyone here saying that the offensive speech had to be censored, either by the government or other body with veto power?

I support both the right to be offensive and the right to disapprove of that offensiveness. So long as neither party tries to strong-arm the other with the law or other body with the ability to shut out one message.

A brighter future for a darker age.

I found it weird because there didn't seem to be anything more to it. Usually if someone is arguing for the freedom to be offensive it's for a positive reason: "I have the right to radical free speech in keeping the government in check", or "I have the right to be offensive to satirically point out the flaws in today's society".

In this case it appeared merely to be the right to be offensive for its own sake: "I have the freedom to be a dick". Well, yeah, you do. You also have the freedom not to bathe, but you shouldn't be surprised when people don't want to hang around with you.

edited 15th Feb '11 4:03:34 PM by TrapperZoid

Wasn't the Dickwolf less an icon for rapists, and more of yet another hilariously Crosses the Line Twice mascot of PA? You know, like the Fruit Fucker and that game system that was always drunk?

I don't see much of a problem with that, or shirts of that existing.

edited 15th Feb '11 5:51:57 PM by Kayeka

Not in this particular thread about this particular incident as far as I've seen. And they don't need to be here in this thread to be a threat.

Much more of a Creator In-Joke. Divorced from all context the shirt is only offensive if you are sensitive to the word "dick". It has very little meaning at all unless you know the reference. Which is the huge problem with the shirt, because it means different things to different people.

When I first heard about it I had no idea why PA would run with such a shirt unless it was a Take That! against their critics. It wasn't until I read the debacle timeline that I learned that it became some sort of in-joke last PAX and it started making a heck of lot more sense.

But yeah... that fruit molesting robot - I never found that funny at all. This whole dickwolves things reminded me of it and the elements of PA I hated. It was a really feeble defence for the PA guys to say people shouldn't have been offended by Dickwolves because it was in a long tradition of them making rapists their own mascots. (Frankly it's more than a little weird).

PA has never pretended to be politically correct. They shock and offend people; it's part of their schtick.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

So random strangers are getting offended and offensive against a couple of creative people making a badly chosen joke, who they don’t have to support or look at anymore than they personally want to, and the creators and perpetrators of said joke are lashing out at critics and naysayers of their comment and idea? This is new.

edited 15th Feb '11 8:07:43 PM by Newfable

But aren't those T-Shirts only supposed to offend people who were raped by dickwolves? I highly doubt anyone got raped by those things in real life...

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

I'm certain that there are things on both sides that contributed to the way the situation came about.

Yes, the PA guys probably could have handled things better. But we've seen how Fighteer and others were treated in this thread for simply questioning rape culture, and the responsibility of webcomic creators to limit things that might "trigger" others.

It's very easy to take a defensive posture when you've got people alternating every word they type at you in all caps, and being entirely dismissive of you as a lost cause if you dare to disagree. I don't know that any of that happened to the PA guys when this whole thing started, but if it can happen to reasonable forum posters like Fighteer, Justice, and some of the others in this thread, it can happen to anyone.

edited 16th Feb '11 7:25:38 AM by Meeble

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And if they were just PA, a couple of random dudes who make a video gaming webcomic on the interwebs, then I wouldn't mind that. But now they are PA, the guys on the Time 100 most influential list for their contribution on video game culture. They're effectively video gaming's top cultural ambassadors, so it is disappointing when their actions paint the whole culture as insensitive dicks.

^^ Pretty much this.

I didn't actually understand the full implications of the term "rape culture" when I first started posting in this thread. I mean, I was vaguely familiar with the term, I'd seen it used on blogs from time to time, but I hadn't understood the extent of what it encompassed or why seemingly innocuous instances of it were supposed to be such a big deal. My instinctive response to excessive capslocking and the sheer levels of anger being levelled at a simple webcomic was "OK, what is with these people?"

I mean, I think I understand the situation better now, but people like the writers at Shakesville did not make themselves easily understood, and as a reader of Penny Arcade, my kneejerk response was very nearly defensiveness, probably followed by dismissiveness.

I used to identify as a feminist and recognised some of the language being used, and in any case, when I'm thinking straight and not feeling defensive I don't like dismissing things offhand, so I gave the comic's critics the benefit of the doubt and read the linked blog posts, and sure enough, there was another side to the story, and I think I've learned something, and now I really do see where those criticising the comic are coming from.

But... people like Shakesville did not make it easy.

edited 15th Feb '11 8:30:46 PM by BobbyG

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What am I, chopped liver?

Seriously though, the whole experience was an eye opener. I sort of laid the blame mostly with the "lol, gaming nerds" , until I actually “talked” to some of the “rape-survivor-ally” crowd. Then I got the picture that the “Anti-rape” side likely escalated things accidently.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

You're mentioned in the last paragraph. Attention Whore!

But yes, one thing we can take from the whole ordeal is that Internet White Knighting never helps the situation on either side of an issue. Ever.

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I have a question that I don't think anyone can really answer, but I think it needs asking. Why does everyone assume that this entire debate exploded due to either the initial comic, the response comic, Gabe/Mike mocking trigger warnings, or the t-shirt? Based on the timeline, it seems like everything went to hell when Courtney Stanton said she wouldn't be speaking at PAX and when the t-shirt was taken out of the store. It seems like the real debate is about Gabe/Mike acting like an ass on Twitter and the shirt not being sold, either that, or everyone just forgot to be offended by the t-shirt and the mocking of trigger warnings for something like three months and by the comic for half a year. Granted, there were a few blog posts and reactions, like the "don't be a dickwolf" t-shirt, but between the t-shirt going on sale and it being taken out of the store, the timeline shows only the creation of the counter t-shirt, two blog posts in October, one post in November, one post in December, and one post in January. So, why then does everyone act like the two comics, the mocking, and the t-shirt were the problem, when in fact none of those things really started the huge, insane debate, but merely small, relatively controlled debate? Or is my analysis just wrong? Does the timeline misrepresent what was actually happening during that time? Or would the internet have exploded even without Courtney Stanton's statement and the t-shirts being removed from the store?

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to an asskicking."

I would imagine the timeline only covers the major, traceable events, and that the conflict was slowly building during this time (in smaller, untraceable/too-numerous-to-list-events such as blog comments and emails). In addition, until it was a huge deal it wasn't something people were probably keeping track of, so I would imagine some early events missed that list.

As many people have already said (and I personally agree with this) the inflexible, non-discussion attempting, almost troll-like behavior on both sides escalated into a shouting match where discussion became impossible. The initial comic was just the first spark for this, and everything that followed was an escalation.

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.

@Jesster: It's not so much it exploded as expanded. The latest stage in the whole saga followed on from the previous. Courtney Stanton was the blogger who created the Dickwolves Survivor t-shirt in protest of the dickwolves shirt.

I've read from a couple of places rumours that Rob, the PA manager, was sensing a fair bit more disquiet about the shirts from industry insiders about the shirts and what they were doing to PAX. That's probably why the announcement from Gabe about pulling the shirts read like he had his arm twisted behind his back (he probably did). I'm not sure what truth to put on these rumours, but it's possible someone a lot bigger than a few bloggers would have pulled out if they hadn't taken down the shirts.

@ deathjavu - So, did the arguments rage on in comments and personal e-mails and twitter for the six months from the second comic until the argument expanded into the blog world, or was there a bit of an uproar every time something new was said, that would die down until something else new happened? I ask only because I want a better feel for how this entire process developed.

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to an asskicking."

@Jesster: There's a timeline that shows the events. But basically the latter (uproar died down once everything had been said). However PA kept saying and doing stuff at regular intervals to spark it up again, and once the shirts were out it reached the stage where it was being mentioned off-hand if anyone was blogging about rape in modern media in general or in Top 10 Webcomic Gaffe lists for 2010. And it was bound to flare up again come PAX.

Not to sound too curt, but I did reference the timeline in the above post, and the point of that post was that the timeline shows that there was relatively little that happened between the release of the t-shirt and the removal of the t-shirt (according to the timeline, four blog posts about it, Courtney Stanton's "don't be a dickwolf" -shirt, and Courtney Stanton's explanation of why she would not be attending PAX over the 112 days). So, basically, I take it that the timeline is just not very accurate at reporting things that happened prior to the removal of the t-shirt from PA's webstore.

edited 16th Feb '11 4:33:55 PM by TheJessterLeVar

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to an asskicking."

See, a "don't be a dickwolf" shirt is what PA should've made in the first place.

Funny, I kinda thought that as well...

Though it'd be very similar to this one.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

Uhhh, I can feel that this is going to be dynamite in a pool but here goes....

As a person who regularly has to deal with death, rape and mutilation I really appreciate humor about these topics. If you want to get a laugh at a rape joke tell it in the special victims unit of any police force. Humor is often humorous because it mines the most uncomfortable aspects of life, bringing absurdity to the horrific.

Penny arcade once made a joke about the heat of the Mac Book pro being so intense that it burned gabes face off. I know a couple of people who had their faces burned off. One of them was a child of.... Five I think? Not only is the pain of a burn beyond imagining that little girl looks like she is wearing a mask, a hideous mask, and will for the rest of her life. But you know what. I laughed like hell when Is that comic because i had a mac book and i too nearly had a casen of penis pannini. It is funny because it is an absurd extrapolation of familiar circumstances.

I could go on but if I talk too much about these things it takes the mind to bad places. Every day we make humor of death, I once listened to an interview with a soldier who talks about killing, comparing the act of killing a man to being raped, this having been raped himself as a child. This is a piece of insight that struck me deeply as I though about the possible reactions I could have to trauma. It hurts a lot to care. It hurts a lot to carry these things with you. You need to laugh and blame the victim or it will devour you.

Here is the funniest thing. I actually kinda agree with the rape culture issue. Rape being traumatic is partly the fault of our attitudes, otherwise it would just be a humiliating assault.

Here is one last little piece of discomfort. After a rape call, most of the time it was my female partners that were the most dismissive of the suffering of the victim. Most likely to label it her fault or stupid.... Not sure what that means but it seems significant.

edited 17th Feb '11 12:40:44 PM by Shrimpus

@Jesster: I must have misunderstood, sorry. AFAIK the timeline is only filled in from user submissions, and since the timeline was only created recently it is skewed very heavily towards reporting all sorts of irrelevant minor things in the last couple of weeks. No-one cares enough to trawl back through blogs and report every single reference in the last couple of months. I know I've read some stuff in-between (I remember some in the "2010 in review" pages everyone writes in December), but they were minor things.

Courtney Stanton's shirt was the Dickwolf Survivors Guild one - a phoenix over the body of a dead dickwolf. Someone else was making the "Don't be a dickwolf" shirts. And I agree that PA should have gone with that originally - as well has having the complete opposite connotations from the Team Dickwolves shirt, "Don't be a dickwolf" is actually pretty funny.