Redirect Farming: Vasquez Always Dies

A misuse rate of, at minimum, 1 in 3 is not "a possibility". And the fact is, the only reason this name got those inbounds really is the Cracked article. If we had done the rename a month earlier, and they had run the article after that, we'd get the same inbounds. The only possible way that the inbounds are in any way due to the name itself would be if Cracked would not have run the article if not for the current name. And unless that's the case - which I admit it could be, I don't read Cracked - then the inbounds are really only relevant insomuch as they mean we're keeping this name as a redirect. They don't really reflect anything about the quality of the name itself, just the immense popularity of the one site that referenced it.

tl;dr: 72,000 inbounds from one article really should be taken to mean more about Cracked's popularity then anything about the quality of this name.

Edit: No one is arguing about the trope definition, by the way - we're all agreed that "Strong Woman Dies First" is more-or-less the gist of it. But the misuse is largely related to "minority woman dies". The problem is the name, not the definition.

edited 18th Nov '11 2:38:05 AM by nrjxll

Stronger.

In fairness to all sides, I think it's appropriate to check the inbounds from the three (check the various links in the article; they referred to us three times) links from said article:

• Vasquez Always Dies: 75,937 people brought to the wiki.
• Waif-Fu (specifically name-dropped in the article): 51,630 people brought to the wiki.
• Death By Sex (linked to but not name-dropped): 9,112 people brought to the wiki.

Given the usage numbers (Waif-Fu and Death by Sex both hovering just below 500, Vasquez Always Dies at just above 100), I think the logical conclusion is that the very specific, it-gets-a-paragraph-to-itself mention from Cracked is, by far, the most potent traffic driver.

Personally, I voted for renaming myself. But I think Edouard Rapide, as they call him in France, is right. Redirects are fine, but this managed to get so much attention so effectively (and was used completely correctly in said article) that changing it is like shooting ourselves in the foot.

Honestly, this is making me strongly reconsider the current policy of simply doing a rename for every character-named trope. I'm not saying Cracked is about to throw us courtesy links to every character-named trope from here on out, but I'm thinking that there might be a better way to handle them from here on out.

edited 18th Nov '11 7:40:20 AM by 32_Footsteps

I want to object to our illustrious founder's characterization of the inbounds as an "incredible level of acceptance" of the name.

It's absolutely nothing of the kind. It's a bunch of dudes reading a popular website seeing a link, thinking "huh, wonder what it's about and what it talks about" (note that they didn't have to puzzle over an obscure and confusing name because, hey, it was explained for them right there) and clicking it. I seriously doubt any thoughts about the name, for good or ill, ever entered their minds. To think that the inbounds say anything good about this name is, quite frankly, a huge error.

I realize this may be futile, and may do nothing to overcome the admin fiat. But I'm sorry, Mr. Eddie, I think you're making a serious mistake in your overruling of the crowner in this case. (Though I do admit that it does fit into the general policy of "ignore everything bad about a name if enough people think it's funny or likable". I just don't think that this one-off surge in hits brings this name anywhere close to the exalted state that keeps Xanatos Gambit around.)

As for "what this means" about character-named tropes, I say: absolutely nothing. Take it on a case by case basis at best (although I personally think we should lean towards "rename" as a default, especially in the case of "The X"'s). Otherwise, we still wouldn't have The Watson, now would we?

edited 18th Nov '11 8:43:39 AM by Leaper

You know, I think the biggest thing with the misuse is we might be defining the trope too narrowly. The core of it is that if there's a tough action girl in a work, she won't live to see the end. I don't see why we need a softer, more feminine action girl in the same work to compare her too. If we drop that requirement, we'd have drastically less misuse.

And I think it's worth considering that we just got 72k inbounds from a source that explained the correct definition of the trope immediately before linking to it. All those people who got here from there? They're not going to be misusing it.

The fact of the matter is, though, that regardless of however all those who have been brought in handle things (and keep in mind there's a difference between readers and editors), the name at this point is broken. Even if it's "just" 30% misuse, that's a pretty bad ratio. I'd hate to see an obviously flawed name stay just because it happened to be referenced by one incredibly popular site at the worst possible time.

Since the Cracked article nowhere mentions the trope name of "vasquez always dies", I fail to see how said article can be an argument against renaming.

Obviously it's a strong argument against deleting or merging the trope, but that wasn't on the table in the first place.

I'm with shimaspawn on this. The core of the trope is 'tough action girl dies'. If dropping the comparison would correct a significant portion of the missue I say we do it.

See, I think the comparison is actually a big part of the trope. Tough Action Girl Dies sounds really generic - the current definition seems like much more of a trope.

That is an extremely good point.

But of course, all this is moot if Fast Eddie is going to veto any change. But maybe the fact I laud above may convince...?

Actually, they talked about Vasquez herself and then potholed a sentence saying that she even had a trope named for her. I hate to say it, but Eddie's right. It's established outside the site now.

Without the current name, Cracked would not have linked to us. The name drove the inbounds, interesting names work.

I'd also like to point out that I almost missed voting on a rename because the thread is marked as redirect farming. I thought it was a redirects crowner, not a rename one. Can someone make sure in future that threads are properly titled, and if the focus moves from redirects to renames the thread title is corrected, please?

edited 19th Nov '11 9:33:18 AM by CrypticMirror

Assuming, of course, that 72k people suddenly became active members of the wiki once they visited the page in question.

All in all, I feel that proper use on the wiki is a better way to measure the benefit a trope name has than its inbounds. Inbounds mean very little in this regard, unless the numbers can show a clear increase in the numbers of people editing pages, making troper handles, or otherwise being active on the wiki. If not, then the old title could be easily relegated to a redirect status at no exponential cost.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:22:24 AM by SeanMurrayI

The article was most likely not linked because of its name, it was linked because of its content. Other pages were linked too. And this pages have less "intresting" names. And actually the article is a nice example why the name doesn't work. Please have a look which one is the trope in need of a whole paragraph explaining the name.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:23:27 AM by Osmium

@Mimimurlough: Well, then that's a disaster, because the misuse on this thing is not something we can ignore.

The article was linked because of its name. Specifically referring to Vasquez, as with the category of tropes misusing it to refer to the character instead of the trope.

Gentlemen, I propose a compromise.

The trope that we are discussing is extremely narrow... Stronger Girl Dies or something like it is almost certainly going to be a good enough name, because this trope doesn't seem to come up all THAT often in the grand scheme of things.

What we OUGHT to do is change Vasquez Always Dies into the trope that Cracked, mrcheaterson, and what somewhere around 40% of the pages in the Wick Check THINKS it is: When the Vasquez-like character, the Bad Ass Action Girl, is killed off in the story. Then we move the trope we're discussing into the clearer name. Split the trope.

We already agree that this name does not describe this trope. Maybe the best solution to misuse is to make the misuse correct.

edited 19th Nov '11 1:28:54 PM by Trismegustis

But the cracked article didn't use the trope incorrectly.

And it is most likely Vasquez was used as an example because the trope name inspired the writer. Why think of an other example when the trope title already mentions one? The author seems to know TV Tropes quite well and picked tropes as examples for the statements, I think if the trope was already renamed before the article was written the new name would be used. The cracked article is no proof that the name works. It just proofes that someone likes TV Tropes.

No the best way to deal with misuse if finding the reason for this misuse (e.g a really bad name)and fix it. If we start shifting all our tropes to fit misuse than there is no use in defining them.

edited 19th Nov '11 2:27:41 PM by Osmium

I'm with Trismegustis. For one, we don't have a trope for a non feminine Action Girl getting killed off, so it fulfills a function. Secondly, it's already established that a name change isn't an option.

We don't need a trope for the deaths of specific character types. They will fall under the according Death Tropes. e.g. a Heroic Sacrifice is not different when it is The Lancer or The Hero or the Action Girl who is dying.

Vasquez Always Dies is a trope, not because someone dies, it is a trope because there is a pattern wich kind of character dies or not. It is not a trope that can be found by just looking at one work, it is one of these tropes which is visible as a trend in media in general.

edited 19th Nov '11 4:11:13 PM by Osmium

This. Tough Action Girl Dies is not a trope. Expanding the trope to fit the misuse would be a very bad idea, because the misuse is not really a trope at all (or at least that kind isn't - the "Token Minority chick dies" stuff might be one, similar to Black Dude Dies First).