Definition needs clarification: Femme Fatalons

This came about when I made a thread for a new page image for Femme Fatalons. In trying to gather proposed images, it came to light that this trope is being used for pretty much anything that vaguely resembles claws or talons or long fingerails, whether they're natural fingernails, artificial fingernails, clawed gloves, claw-like weapons, claws that extend from the back of the hand or the fingertips.

And looking at the discusson, there are two conflicting "I assume it means...": one that assumes it should only include fingernails that are used as weapons, rather than simply 'extremely long fingernails', and one that assumes that it means the specifically the type of long fingernails often found on Femme Fatales.

We already have Wolverine Claws for

Characters that fight with multiple blades attached to their hands or fingers to emulate gigantic metal claws. The blades can be actually attached to their limbs, stuck on a glove or gauntlet, or actually be a variation of bladed brass knuckles. Wolverine Claws on a good guy is used to demonstrate Exotic Weapon Supremacy; on a bad guy they show that he or she is especially bloodthirsty and likely Ax Crazy. Any character sporting these will be improbably effective with them. When these weapons are unsheathed, they often make a distinct "snikt!" noise or some variant.

I think that since we have a perfectly functional trope for "blades that look like claws, and weapons that look like extremely long fingernails", we should make Femme Fatalons about non-weaponized long fingernails — well-kept, long nails as a signal of evil, villainy, or untrustworthiness.

I would allow the nails to scratch and maybe draw blood, but not be real weapons. That does leave the question though of where to put examples like Drusilla from Buffy. She slits a slayer's throat with her finger nail, but they're just long finger nails and they don't really fit under wolverine claws. We'd be left without a trope for normal fingernails used as weapons without them being claws.

edited 20th Jan '11 7:01:44 PM by shimaspawn

Support. Would like redirects for Wolverine Claws though.

I don't think Femme Fatalons should take whether they're usable as weapons into account at all. Speaking as female who tends to kep her fingernails on the long side, any long fingernail is a potential weapon, either for scratching, gouging, or, if you really put some effort into them, cutting. It should be about the symbolism of them, not the practicality of them. So Drucilla's would definitely count as Femme Fatalons.

edited 20th Jan '11 7:05:21 PM by Madrugada

We may need to tweak Wolverine Claws a bit as well, as the description you quoted specifies "metal" not organic. I can think of at least one example of organic Wolverine Claws.

edited 20th Jan '11 7:06:28 PM by BlackWolfe

Ok, so we're just separating the ones that aren't evil or predatory finger nails then. No weapons. No stuff that isn't finger nails. No just long nails are pretty.

As can I, and it's Wolverine's claws. They were bone for a while.

edited 20th Jan '11 7:06:53 PM by shimaspawn

Thought he got the metal back.

He did, but they didn't stop being the same trope because the metal got stripped.

Fake fingernails (like glue-ons) or primarily-decorative nail guards (like these◊) should count. Primarily-weapons shouldn't.

...we should make Femme Fatalons about non-weaponized long fingernails — well-kept, long nails as a signal of evil, villainy, or untrustworthiness.

Agree.

Works for me.

Do we have consensus to do this?

Let's find out. Crowner here.

I like the proposed redefine.

Is this ready to call?

I'd say so, yes. Hollering now.

Looks like consensus. Calling.

Calling the crowner with a final tally of 14 (yeas:14 nays:0) in favor of redefining to "Femme Fatalons [is] about non-weaponized long fingernails — well-kept, long nails as a signal of evil, villainy, or untrustworthiness. "

• Fake nails, like acrylic or gel nails, or glue-ons, or primarily decorative nail guards are included, as are long nails that can be used as weapons but are not primarily weapons.
• Long nails which do not carry this symbolism are not Femme Fatalons.
• This is not a Female-only trope; some male villains (most often Asian) have Femme Fatalons of the "decorative nail guard" type.

Wicks and examples need to be sorted and corrected.

edited 26th Jan '12 10:48:09 AM by Madrugada

I apologize if this is obvious, but what should be done about examples of fingernails being primarily used as weapons that are currently listed as Femme Fatalons? Should they all be moved to Wolverine Claws?

I am thinking of examples of characters who for some reason have naturally long and sharp fingernails and who use them to fight.

edited 3rd Feb '12 12:05:56 PM by LouieW

Primarily weapons makes them Wolverine Claws, yes. Femme Fatalons are primarily symbolic.

I moved a whole lot to the discussion page for sorting. I'm going to rework the definition some more as well, to make it clearer that these are primarily symbols of badness, rather than weapons.

edited 3rd Feb '12 12:59:17 PM by Madrugada

Working on the description a bit sounds like a good idea to me. Would it make sense to have Weaponized Fingernails as a redirect for Wolverine Claws now that Femme Fatalons is being redefined?

I went through the wicks and tried to sort them into Wolverine Claws and Femme Fatalons as was appropriate. I am really not confident that I did a good job there though, so please tell me if I am getting in the way here.

As for the stuff on Femme Fatalons' discussion page, I know that the Bionicle example at least is an example of Femme Fatalons rather than Wolverine Claws since the character in question does not fight with them.

edited 5th Feb '12 11:25:35 AM by LouieW

Weaponized Fingernails would probably be a good redirect to Wolverine Claws.

Is Roodaka in Bionicle a villain or antagonist, evil? untrustworthy? Dangerous?? I moved that one off the main page because it didn't indicate any of that at all — only that she/he/it has long, talon-like nails.

edited 5th Feb '12 1:09:38 PM by Madrugada

I think the biggest thing there is that Wolverine's claws don't come out of his fingers. So the trope name makes it sound like it's claws coming out of the back of the hand.