Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Kyoko stands out because she is the only character to have a redemption arc and she's the only one whose death is shown to have any meaning. Mami and Sayaka inadvertently caused their own deaths, and both deaths were meant to serve as warnings against becoming a magical girl. Kyoko, the anti-hero, the one who rejects Mami's and Sayaka's views that magical girls should be heroes, is the only on who gets to die a hero's death in the main timeline.

I'm reminded of the line Captain Kirk said when he explained the no-win scenario in Star Trek 2: 'How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life.'

@Sereg: Sayaka doesn't seem very tortured flirting with Kyoko in Rebellion and Rebellion isn't exactly a positive "love conquers all" kind of movie. Rather than Sayaka being the one tortured by Kyoko and Sayaka being together isn't it someone else that is hurt by the idea. I get it, I really do, but in the end things are what they are, right?

This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.

I admire Mami a lot and agree with Sayaka’s assessment of her. I even agree with her decision to kill her friends, which is why I’m supportive of Suzune.

No. Not expecting. Demanding. While knowing the demand won’t be met. There’s a difference. But otherwise, yes. Obviously it’s not alien to me, I’m only going by others’ reactions.

No. Where you end up is irrelevant. Only where you aim is relevant. That’s why it being impossible to achieve doesn’t matter. Because your success isn’t relevant. Only the fact that you tried is.

No, it isn’t. I was taught from a very young age that there is no such thing as good people.

She’d have achieved less if she did compromise.

No. You’re missing the point. Your life faling apart because of your way of thinking doesn’t mean that your way of thinking is wrong. Being right doesn’t protect you.

I disagree that she’s well-intentioned, for a start. For a real well-intentioned extremist, look at Oriko, whom I like a lot, agree with, and see as the hero of her story (and on another forum, they lie to compare me to her enough that I often use her as an avatar there).

Which was why that piece of pandering was utterly ridiculous and by far the worst part of the movie. That said, it can still be seen as platonic, so I will interpret it that way, because having Sayaka enjoy a relationship with Kyouko is Character Assassination, which is particularly tragic as Sayaka is perfect the way she is and I don’t want her to be replaced with someone so vile they’d enjoy a relationship with Kyouko. And no, this isn’t a “I want her to be with me” thing I consider Sayaka better off dead, forever alone, or dating literally any other member of the cast including Kyuubey. Yes, that is how opposed to it I am and how bad I think it is for Sayaka.

edited 11th May '17 4:34:57 PM by Sereg

So basically you like it better when Sayaka is self-loathing and alone. How exactly is Kyoko the sadist here?

This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.

Nah she'd have accomplished near-infinitely more if she had compromised. I'm not saying let the witch fully form; I'm saying use the fucking grief seed to heal so you can fight until you die and save as many other would-be magical girls from suffering as possible. Instead, what she accomplished was a selfish, self-righteous, suicidal, possibly murderous temper-tantrum.

Sayaka "not compromising" got herself witched out; an unknown number people killed by her witch; Kyoko killing herself so Sayaka didn't have to die alone; her friends and family mourning her premature, inexplicable death; and Homura going from fighting Wally with two allies and possibly being able to beat it without Madoka making a contract to fighting it alone, thus prompting Madoka to make a wish, thus leading to Rebellion in which Homura enslaves everybody and damns herself and Madoka to eternal conflict.

For all her talk of ideals, her actions indicate that she never gave a flying fuck about anyone or anything but her own desires and image. So one could reasonably argue that Sayaka caused infinite suffering through her refusal to "compromise." She actually would have hurt less people if she never made a contract in the first place.

And that's with the argument that the choice not to act is itself an action, because even a mildly responsible good-doer would stop to ask themselves if they are really the right person for the job. You don't send a volunteer at a soup kitchen to do hostage negotiation, you send a trained negotiator who can get the hostage taker to either stand down or else stand somewhere that a shot can be taken without murdering innocent people to do it.

edited 11th May '17 6:58:48 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They

Yes. Because that's the Sayaka I love. The one perfect the way she is. The one who is exactly the way all people should be. Having her be happy with Kyouko means that the Sayaka I love has been murdered and replaced with an imposter I hate. If someone wants to change Sayaka, they're proving that they don't really love her, which is why Kyouko trying to change Sayaka proves that Kyouko does not really love Sayaka.

The one who advocates torture and rape and deliberatey provokes people so she has an excuse to eat them to death out of nothing but the desire to harm others, you mean? She'd be better off self-loathing and alone than continually abused, raped and having her personality destroyed.

Which is not what would have happened. Sayaka using the grief seed would mean that Kyouko would feel she had been proven right and would have not been redeemed, but would have gone back to murdering and allowing the creation of more witches, resulting in a cascading effect on the witch population and the spread of murder among magical girls, resulting in an even more brutal and cut-throat life of suffering for the future magical girl population and a cascade of witches which would have destroyed the planet, while condemning loads of people to the suffering of witchdom that would otherwise have never experienced it. As such, if she would have use it, she'd have killed every living thing on the planet that will ever live while condemning others to extended suffering.

You don't understand what "selfish" is. "Selfish" is when you compromise to save your own skin instead of sacrificing yourself to do what needs to be done ie. the exact opposite of what Sayaka did.

You also don't understand what sanctions are. When someone says something like, "Every night, I am going to ive you a chocolate. Then, after you take the chocolate, I am going to go out and rape a baby to death," then refusing the chocolate doesn't mean you are throwing a temper tantrum. It means you are imposing sanctions, like you should.

Which, the show makes clear would have happened anyway, thus meaning it isn't the fault of her compromising at all. Even if it was, firstly, causing suffering to yourself instead of others is proof that it is the correct option. Secondly, Sayaka did not realise she would become a witch. People cannot be judged based on information they did not have available. Thirdly, if she didn't compromise, she probably would have never had a chance to save anyone else anyway, because she's still a weak magical girl who would lose, while I've already shown that if she compromised, the planet would be destroyed, meaning that i she compromised, she'd have saved zero more people and killed seven billion more people including many other lifeforms as well while also subjecting many others to witchdom.

Kyouko being dead is an improvement.

Which again, would have happened anyway, as the show makes clear. However, countless other families would have had to do the same if she compromised.

Firstly, canonically, Wally is impossible to defeat with Homura, Sayaka and Kyouko working together, so no, that would have achieved nothing. Secondly, Sayaka knew nothing about Wally, thus again, meaning she isn't responsible for that. Thirdly, despite what Homura believes, defeating Wally would achieve absolute squat. Kyuuey would still want Madoka exactly as much and would see that a Wlapugisnacht wouldnot be enough to convince her. He has almost every grief seed that has ever been made and has roven willing to plant witches. Madoka was physically incapable of surviving to adulthood uncontracted no mater what anyone attempted, so therefore, Sayaka compromising does not improve this by one iota.

Which, by your argument, makes Sayaka responsible for saving everything since the beginning to the end of time in the entire omniverse and the creation of Madka's afterlife, ie. infinite happiness that cannot be stopped.

Firslty, Sayaka never knew about that and again, can thus not be blamed. Secondly, as I've pointed out before, it is literaly impossible based on the setting's metaphysics that the entire thing wasn't planned by Madoka to result in something at least as good as the wraithverse if not even better, meaning that by your logic, Sayaka is responsible for infinite happiness at a minimum.

If that where true, she'd have pursued Kyousuke. The events of the show mean your interpretation is impossible. It's her actions that prve that she does care about others. You, however, are proving that you don't give enough of a "flying fuck" about others to properly consider the implications of your suggestions. The one demonstrating their selfishness here is you, not Sayaka.

No, one couldn't. Because infinite suffering never occured. What actually occurred was people being saved from infinite suffering and given infinite happiness due to Sayaka's actions.

That's not what the argument is about, so it's irrelevant. But for a start, all those people at the mass suicide would not have been saved otherwise, nevermind all those others she saved from familars or the entire omniverse she saved through Madoka.

An irresponsible person decides they aren't the right person for the job. Hence the bystander effect.

Yes. Guess who wasn't available? A sup kitchen volunteer is better than on one at all.

Well, you clearly know more about the metaphysics and canon of this than I do, so I'm not going to continue arguing this beyond this one point:

The current endstate of the omniverse is Homura trying to drug everybody into enjoying slavery. Homura trying to lobotomize everyone against their will. Homura trying to daterape everbody and then keeping them drugged until one day their mind is so broken they accept their place and think it's good. That ain't happiness. That's about as evil as it gets.

edited 12th May '17 6:06:55 AM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They

Homura's world is infinitely better than the witchverse IMO, so even considering that, one should still praise Sayaka. But yes, as I said, it's definitely a temporary thing that will result in something at least as good as the wraithverse. Again, even if it didn't, it's stupid to blame someone for something they had no way of knowing would happen.

All people should be self-loathing and alone?

Not Sayaka's responsbility.

Yeah, because one person (who's not Madoka or Homura, anyways) would have such a catastrophic effect on the planet. /s

No. Just no. I'm not even going to get into this because your interpretation of Sayaka's actions is so flawed.

Strawman Fallacy, plus this argument makes no sense. Taking chocolate has nothing to do with baby rape. Also, distasteful, dude.

Citation needed.

She would have known if she'd gotten her head out of her ass for 5 minutes and listened to Homura.

That's not how Incubators work with Grief Seeds. Also, we have no way of knowing whether Madoka would have been okay after Walpurgisnacht because we never get to that point in canon.

Your argument was already proven to be severely flawed in previous replies.

Personal attacks are not allowed here.

Citation needed.

Wrong. Madoka saved the people from committing mass suicide and Homura was shown to have gotten there a minute after Sayaka did. Homura would have defeated the witch if Sayaka wasn't there.

Oissu!

Self-loathing, yes. Alone is more of a depending on the circumstances thing. Certainly better to be alone than with the wrong person.

It’s everyone’s responsibility. That argument is the essence of most of what is wrong with the world. There is no such thing as a responsibility that is not shared by everyone.

Firstly, Sayaka influences the two of them, and secondly, yes. In such a case, one person can have such a catastrophic effect on the planet, especially seeing as though the way the witch system is set up, that catastrophic effect is practically inevitable. If it is, then prove it. Not a strawman. An illustrating example. To Sayaka, the two are equivalent (and I don’t blame her) And yes, taking chocolate has nothing to do with baby rape. Trades often work like that. And yes, it’s distasteful. That’s the point. Baby rape is a hug problem in my country, so it’s naturally a problem on my mind. Firstly, Urobuchi said that Magical Girl Sayaka is incapable of surviving past Walpurgisnacht no matter what. Secondly, the PSP game shows that to beat Wally without Madoka, you need Homura, Kyouko, Mami and Sayaka working together to even stand a chance or it’s an automatic loss and otherwise it’s still very difficult. The spinoff manga say that Wally’s defences are tough enough to withstand 100 tiro finales and Word of God is that Wally has the power to inflict helplessness, causing literally any attack to be completely useless, no matter how powerful it is and she can do this as often as she likes. That she is only ever harmed because she wants to be and can only be defeated if she decides that it would be appropriately dramatic to be defeated. Witch cards also confirm that Wally makes her decisions because she wants to create tragedy. As such, Wally cannot be defeated except by Pyrrhic Victory or a situation worse than herself.

That’s like claiming she should have listened to Kyuubey. People need to demonstrate trustworthiness, which Homura failed to do.

Yes, it is. We see so on-screen and Rebellion proves that Incubators would do far worse for far less reason. And yes, we do know, because the Incubators have an established personality which proves that defeating Wally would only make the try harder.

You have failed to provide said proof.

It isn’t a personal attack. Certainly far less than the ones that have been directed at me.

Madoka.

Madoka only survived as long as she did because Sayaka intervened. The scene makes it clear that Homura was far too late and they’d all have died without Sayaka.

edited 12th May '17 11:09:09 AM by Sereg

We're going to have to agree to disagree here, especially on the second point.

You're making a false equivalency by implying that if you like Kyouko you might as well be supporting baby rape. How is that not a strawman argument?

This doesn't mean that Walpurgisnacht couldn't be beaten, it just means Sayaka would have died in the process.

This is a fair point, but video games are not a good indicator of power levels across a series.

Then how do you justify the Good Ending in the PSP game, where everyone survives and Madoka doesn't contract? If Walpurgisnacht simply No Sells every attack then how could Homura, Mami, Sayaka, and Kyouko all defeat her by working together?

Also, in Kazumi Magica a witch on a similar power level to Walpurgis (to the point where Kyubey thought it was Walpurgis for a moment) being helped by a magical girl was defeated by three magical girls, so I don't think it's impossible.

It's been shown that Sayaka never trusts Homura, even when she's Moemura.

Incubators devour Grief Seeds to use the energy inside them to stop entrophy. There is no canon at all to suggest they can just pull them out of wherever they put them and cause more witches to show up. In fact, the canon suggests they are dependent on making contracts to create more witches, and that's why they sometimes go after magical girls with weaker potential (like Sayaka) rather than only going after the most potentially powerful girls (like Kazumi or Madoka).

Homura can stop time, there's no such thing as far too late for her.

Oissu!

Fine, but then agree to let me disagree.

I'm doing nothing of the sort (I mean, I believe it, but I'm not saying it). I was showing that there are valid reasons to avoid a trade that would benefit you beyond throwing a temper tantrum. Sayaka and I consider it an equivalent reason, but you don't have to for my point to stand.

It's just evidence. Let me finish.

Normally yes, but Word of God is that they designed t that way explicitly to illustrate the canon point I'm making.

Word of God is that that ending is impossible and only thrown in for the fans.

No. They created a mini-Walpurgisnacht. It is not the |Wally from the show, has an entirely different powerset, far fewer powers, and is much lower in power as it is made from far fewer witches who possess much lower HAX.

Irrelevant. The point stands. Homura being Moemura doesn't make her trustworthy anymore than Kyuubey being cute and fluffy does.

Yes, there is. Charlotte.

Yes. They always want more. That doesn't change the fact that they have all those others available. Or their other technology, like putting people in stasis fields like in Rebellion.

And she chose not to. Which means she would not have stopped time early enough. Which means that yes, she was 'too late. My point stands.

edited 12th May '17 11:59:36 AM by Sereg

I mean, Walpurgisnacht is the name for a kind of Witch, not a specific one per se.

A Walpurgisnacht is what happens when a bunch of Witches merge together.

That is correct. So this ones' powers are not indicative of every walpurgisnacht.

@Sereg: So basically your "love" for Sayaka is really a desire to keep her in a self-inflicted hell just because her suffering goes well with your philosophy. There is no love in that, there are no feelings for Sayaka in that, there isn't even anything human in that. You just want to feel as if your beliefs are valid. Normally I might be feel some small measure of sympathy for even someone like you, but someone who uses the word "love" for something like that is not someone that can be acknowledged or accepted as a part of humanity. Your beliefs are not valid, your thoughts are not valid, nothing about you has any validity at all. Be as twisted as you want, believe whatever you want but you have no right to call it love.

Even if Kyoko was the sadistic monster you declare her to be, even if all she wanted was Sayaka's pain at least that is something that is actually a part of Sayaka. There is love in that however twisted it may be. All you want is for someone, anyone to say something that makes you feel as if you are not delusional. There is no love in that. I doubt something like you could comprehend that.

This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.

No, it isn't. Firstly, it isn't a hell at all. I know what self-loathing is like from experience. Secondly, I don't want her to suffer. I just think that her suffering in the story is an example of good writing. Thirdly, I desire nothing of the sort for her. I just want her to not be mind-raped into a different person by Kyouko like you do. Because I love Sayaka and not the person that Kyouko wants to create out of Sayaka. You, however, don't love Sayaka because you want her to be replaced by a different character and want her personality to be cruelly destroyed. The one calling torture "love" here is you.

There wouldn't be if it were true, but it isn't. It's a Strawman. I don't want the one I love to be destroyed. I want what's best for her. Being with Kyouko is not what's best for her. It is harmful to her. And I want to protect her from that torture and from the destruction of her personality. You apparently are okay with her being destroyed and then say that that's love and protecting her isn't love.

Awesome. Humans suck.

No, I don't want anything of the sort. I don't have any doubt at all about the validity of my beliefs. I don't need anything at all to justify them. What I want is for my hero, the person I admire, to be protected from those who would rape, abuse and destroy her.

Awesome. As I said, humanity sucks. Now, I still feel sympathy for you, even though you engage in such discriminatory speciesm, that you decide what's worthy of love based on how "human" they are and then dares to call themselves in love with love, while simultaneously deciding that abusing someone to the point that their personality is destroyed is love, while protecting someone isn't love, doesn't deserve to be called love and those who do it are undeserving of sympathy.

And yet, I'm not going to deny your obvious to call something so twisted, it involves rape, abuse and the destruction of someone's personality "love". I know you're wrong, but you have the right to be wrong and to think that I don't have the right to be right.

Still, non-existence is quite interesting. First I am apparently no longer a member o Homo Sapiens, and now I don't exist at all. You'd think I'd lose the ability to type.

Fascinating. The pain Kyouko inflicts on Sayaka to destroy her and replace her with a completely different person is part of Sayaka, and the self-loathing Sayaka has had since the start and which was never inflicted upon her is not part of her. Also, hurting someone and destroying them to replace them wih someone else is "love" and protecting them from destruction is not "love". That seems logical.

I don't want that at all. I am confident there. What I want is for the world to be a better place and Sayaka is the kind of person who belongs there and someone I wish to bring there, because I want better for her.

That said, I was under the impression we were just told that personal attacks aren't allowed?

I would like to sincerely apologize to the users of TV Tropes forum for :

• The unintented implication that only humans are good; my critisisms were only intended to be directed at things that are supposed to be human, nonhumans succeeding at being what they are have my support assuming there is no reason for me not to provide it.
• Giving up on communicating with things that cannot be communicated with; I wish to be optimistic about the extent of humanity's ablity to understand others but there are limits.
• Participating in the derailing of this thread; Madoka Magica is far too important for it to be appropriate to be distracted from it by random nonsense.

as an apology for these mistakes I intend to bring as much (on topic) cuteness and love to this thread as possible. for that purpose I am posting these pictures of Kyoko and Sayaka: [1]◊ [2]◊ [3]◊

This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.

Honestly, it seems to me like most of these characters suffer from a lesser version of the dilemma that plagues the characters in Evangelion. People like to ship them, but they aren't in a position where a romantic relationship would be any kind of healthy for them. At least as far as I can tell. The characters could use each other's support so they can better survive, handle their situation and in some cases work away at their flaws. Romance, however, seems a little naive to shoot for given the situation.

To be honest the Kyo Saya pairing actually redeemed Sayaka for me {As did Rebellion to some extent}. I found her quite annoying in the show, and while I totally understand the reasons why she acted the way she did it doesn't change the fact that she got on my nerves, though her death was still pretty sad. But I love the interactions and chemistry she has with Kyoko in both fanworks and some of the official material.

edited 13th May '17 5:08:43 PM by marston

Oh my, are you guys arguing with Serag again?

Realistically yes, they should get years of therapy then start going out with each other but the Power of Love tends to solve a lot more problems in fiction.

-

I loved Sayaka from the start but I agree that Sayaka is at her best when she is together with Kyoko, which is why Kyoko/Sayaka is the best pairing.

-

More Pictures: Homura and Madoka: [1]◊ More Kyoko/Sayaka: [2]◊ Homura: [3]◊

edited 13th May '17 3:45:36 PM by kamiryu

This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.

shh dont comment, they'll hear you

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Exactly. what frustrates me is the fact that no one else seems to acknowledge that.

I'm not going to talk to someone as a response to them indicating a desire for me to leave them alone. I may be socially awkward, but even I realise that would be inappropriate. Believe it or not, I don't actually want to antagonise people. I just get tired of how my hero is treated and want to defend her.

my project to fill this thread with cuteness and love continues:

Devil Homura/Goddess Madoka: [1]◊

The best pairing again: [2]◊

This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.

That "best pairing" doesn't look like Kyoko/Mami.◊

Oissu!