Tales Series

actually there was a recent look back on Zestiria and people found that a lot of things that they complained about either weren't really there or were hints for things that actually answered the questions that many people thought were unanswered, or it meant something else. Because the creators wanted to show that the world isn't simple so when you approach out with a simple mindset you end up not seeing the truth. So reaction to the game in Japan were changed but it also made Ufotable's anime look even more thoughtless than it already was, so now it's hated even more.

Alisha wasn't fitting in, just the opposite. The important thing to remember about Alisha is that she, her attitude, her words, everything aren't important. Sure, it looks like Alisha is beginning to fit in, but that's inky if you consider Alisha's POV, that's the catch. If you look at things from Sorey's, Mikleo's, Lailah's, and Edna's POV you'll realize that they were actually becoming cold to her. What you mistake for getting friendly is really just them being cordial.

When Alisha is around Lailah really starts to hammer in the fact that Sorey can't choose a side, which is what Alisha is attempting to force Sorey to do. Mikleo knew from the moment that he returns that Sorey has lost his vision in one of his eyes, and then knew from Rayfolk that Alisha was the cause, and Edna could just smell the BS. They start to avoid conversing with her in Marlind mansion. They're on edge around her, but Alisha being Alisha she can't read the mood. Speaks for how many people she's pissed off.

edited 14th Jul '17 2:52:34 PM by TheTropeEater

The whole "abluhbluh Sorey loses vision bcuz raisins' plot was a stupid Ass Pull in the first place and should have been axed.

But then, I think the whole story should have been scrapped and redone from the ground up.

Agreed. Characters are good in of themselves, the plot and what it makes the characters do should have been scrapped and just plain thrown out the entire concept.

And she was actually starting to fit in quite well as a human perspective in an adventure spanning 2 worlds. She was loosening up and starting to kinda show her goofy side Defrosting the Ice Queen style. Then in comes Rose who most certainly did not do things from a sane human perspective.

The insane party member is normally fine just they really cant take over like that and they cant be presented as sane, Pascal for example stayed at a good spot.

edited 17th Jul '17 1:46:40 PM by Memers

The only one who I think probably didn't fit in well was Lailah, and that's because she was essentially being bound by the plot to be completely and utterly useless all the time despite supposedly knowing everything. There's no need to have a Mr. Exposition character who can't exposit.

That is true, her goofy personality and now late Seiyuu Miyu Matsuki meshed well skit wise.. plot wise she sucked.

Spiritual powers to see Seraphim is genetic. Only through other means like a Empyreans Domain can humans see them naturally, and even then having good levels of spiritual power is determined by the Seraph.

Sorey was doing something that would of course harm him because Alisha doesn't have powers. The only other time normal humans can see Seraphs is when he's sealed away in a deep sleep for centuries purifying Maotelus.

I'm just puzzled over all this shit over the two human female party members

Where was Rose as a unrepentant paycho who is falsely portrayed as good people in the game

I'm still trying to do side quests after Fire shrine

@Phi Sat that whole thing with Alisha making Sorey go blind was to highlight two things.

1. Alisha is literally pulling the wool over Sorey's eyes making her a burden.

2. Foreshadowing Sorey going to sleep.

Even if you consider the human perspective though Alisha still wasn't fitting in. She was just too idealistic, too stubborn, too convinced that she was right to try or do anything different or even realize where she was wrong. Alisha's head was too up in the skies to help anyone, and that's why she's useless to everyone around her, both to the people she wants to help and to Sorey himself. Hell her wanting to be a knight has nothing to do with helping people, Alisha became a knight to run away from her problems (despite claiming the contrary). She was so idealistic that she ended up making enemies or just isolating herself from the people who had the same goals as her.

Basically when you look at Alisha's character you have to understand that her entire persona that she presents to Sorey and seraphim is fake. The seraphim and Sorey all become aware of that. Alisha was trying to push Sorey down a path that he neither wanted nor needed to go, but where she believed he could make her dreams comes true. The seraphim care more about Sorey than they do about Alisha, and they noticed what she was doing.

It was Alisha herself who was pushing people away, Alisha doesn't fit in because of Alisha. Remember she's a loner, so she can't provide the human link because she herself has no links. And remember when the anime tried to make her do it, she just became a forced Mary Sue.

In hindsight Rose doesn't actually say anything that is actually psychotic, and knowing what I know now, she also doesn't say anything hypocritical. She's basically a female Yuri, if he had gone full vigilante. She knows that killing is wrong but thinks that it must be done.

Where the problem comes from is that she's a spotlight hog, which is a legitimate problem, and not so legitimate is that a lot of people are used to Tales games going the route of agreeing with Alisha and Sorey's early mentality. People weren't expecting the game to be right smack in the middle of the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism. Being overlly idealistic like Alisha is a problem, but being overly cynical like Symonne and Hedalf is also a problem.

It's funny the whole thing with Rose was a point of contention to a lot people who only watched the anime. Because they saw that she had a good point, that while not morally right was true to life.

edited 18th Jul '17 5:25:11 AM by TheTropeEater

Oh.

That Alisha stuff I don't know about, I never got that impression.

I feel like you might be a smidgen biased against her man. I mean, she's certainly become more trouble than she's worth, but I wonder if she's really as bad as you make her out to be.

Word of God did say her story was meant to be different from Sorey's (and not really connected) but was she really as completely useless as you claim her to be, or is some of that now just backlash against the character post anime (combined with people realizing they overhyped her).

No, my points come from a combination of the game, the guidebook, the two manga, and the novel, all predating the anime. Alisha just isn't an emotionally strong character.

Actually Word of God said much more than that. The full extent of what was stated about her wasn't just that her path was differed from Sorey but also that Alisha is just a normal person because she is a normal person is incapable of understanding or helping Sorey or the seraphim. Also that being around Sorey made him understand that there are limits to what he can and should do.

Alisha is meant to be a hindrance to the people around her. Her arc was about her facing reality, and until she does so she doesn't succeed. That little chat that she had with Lucas wherein he pointed out that honor and chivalry have limits is something that has happened to her before. In Alisha manga she even admits to her becoming a knight had nothing to do with helping the people(she was actually only allowed to be a knight because both the other royals and nobles wanted her out of their hair after she effectively caused a ruckus that both made her enemies and embarrassed the royal family). Thing is though Alisha was so in her own head so willing to run away that she lied to herself and claimed That was the point of the Iris Gem quest where she interrupted that meeting.

Remember Alisha is a false heroine, a false lead, of course everything that you would think would make her a main character is false. This is why there is a bit of a disconnect between the story and her words.

This is also hinted in her character design with her uniform being one that made it hard to take her seriously, as well as the black crystals that she wears on her armor, which were a real big hint that she really isn't who she claimed to be to Sorey and the seraphim.

edited 18th Jul '17 12:18:06 PM by TheTropeEater

Wow.

Ok you are rambling on something that is summed up to just Bad Writing.

Is it bad writing when a character is intentionally written to be a false lead and the story gives you plenty of hints to that fact? You can't trust the words of a person whose delusional.

Yes it can actually. I don't doubt the creators intended that for Alisha. It doesn't mean by default that it was pulled off well. I'll give an example that's as simple as possible.

In The Room, Tommy Wiseau intended Johnny to be a normal, friendly sympathetic figure who is betrayed by everyone and is driven to suicide. In practice he's a surreal weirdo that made people think he's an alien. I'm not comparing Zesteria to The Room, but I'm saying that concept does not confirm execution.

No, it's not. It's effectively akin to an unreliable narrator, except in this case it's the character giving exposition that's unreliable. The game also outright tells the player that her exposition isn't reliable. That's why the game is so harsh in her.

Honestly the story of Zestiria is really really simple run of the mill fantasy story. The real twist is that its not heavily idealistic, and the story did actually attempt to trick players. In order to understand it you need to pay attention to what every character except Alisha is implying.

That has totally escaped my grasp because I have no idea what the hell is being talked about

It seems like The Trope Eater has been overanalyzing things and is making the plot sound more complex than freaking Xenosaga when it's obvious that what they wanted and what we got was totally different. Not his fault.

I am tired of Zestiria. All has already been said. No one is fixing Alisha, Rose or the anime version... let them rest.

By the way, and no, not off-topic yet... I finished Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze and the experience was pretty satisfying. The bosses, puzzle pieces, and levels themselves were tough but rewarding. Even with 99 lives and the GREAT AND POWERFUL DIXIE there are times you will die again and again. The item shop went a long way into helping me getting all collectibles / beating the bosses in a fairer fight.

Now, ignore the above paragraph if you like, but answer me this. Favorite / most prominent Anti-Frustration Features present in the Tales Series? My take:

• Eternia: Elemental weapons. They DO make a difference against Summon bosses.
• Symphonia: VISIBLE enemy encounters + stun them with the Sorcerer Ring.
  • DOTNW: higher difficulties give huge Combo EXP bonus + it's super easy to get high combos.
• Abyss: Stealth section can be brute-forced, the airship's autopilot, healing Save Points.
• Legendia: Puzzles are in self-contained rooms and can be safely skipped.
• Vesperia: Collector & Monster Book reference each other, Map has monster & shop data.
• Graces: Every sidequest is neatly documented (and only 3 missables out of like 70)
• Xillia: Character switching mid-battle! I want that to return! And the Fast-travel.

edited 22nd Jul '17 6:58:58 AM by FlightMaster

I haven't been over analyzing anything, those were things that were outright stated by the creators and the characters themselves (some of it is stated in the game). Just because you don't like something doesn't mean there wasn't any thought put into it, it just means that you didn't like it and so didn't care to pay attention to it.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, but just because something had a lot of thought put into it doesn't necessarily make it good or well-written, so that isn't inherently an argument for quality.

edited 22nd Jul '17 9:45:20 AM by Alfric

Then I should also add that just because something isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean it is inherently bad or badly written, it's just not to your taste.

Its human nature that when we dislike something we'll avoid trying to learn about it.

I'll be the first to admit that Zestiria isn't perfect. It doesn't hand out information easily, it assumes that Viewers Are Geniuses, it's heavily seeped in Shintoism mythology which it's localization stupidly tried to change into Judeo-christianity, the game attempts to trick the player at the beginning by giving us false information, and worst of all the game is really unfinshed. Like it probably wasn't even more than 50% done when it was was forced out the gate. But is it badly written trite, no.

The Western influence is still there, which is why the localization adding some Judeo-Christian influence with the naming, and even Innominat and his Sub Lords have angelic and heavenly traits shown with Abrahamic angels.

Even the might Empyreans, the highest of Seraphs fit it as the Seraphs were the closest to god and draconic in nature. I can't deny certain Shinto concepts lose their meaning when translated though, like most people wouldn't assume Kegare is Malevolence.

But they're not really like angels and in fact trying to make the like angels is part of what makes understanding the game confusing. In Judeo Christiantity anyone can see angels, but in Zestiria that isn't true, because they're based on Japanese Kami, creatures that can only really be seen by those with high spiritual powers (unless said Kami is incredibly powerful) and come in all shapes and sizes, but do have a "holy" feel to them, but are also known to both live amongst humans as well as in their own pocket dimension. Angels are powerful no matter what, but tenzoku and Kami alike aren't, in fact they gain power from human prayer.

Then there's the usage of instance using the term shepherd was a bad idea, because in Judeo Christiantity Shepherds are and teachers and guides who guide humanity down a certain path, but that's not really what the doushi in Zestiria. A shepherd guides the sheep and leads them to holy water and convinces them to take part in it, doushi and priests merely just make it known that the lake is there and will purify the water so that the people can drink from it, and that's it. Because of that fact it would be more apt to call Shepherds, Shaman.

Also most importantly there is a distinct difference in shintoist belief that dictates that anyone whether they be Kami, animal, or human when filled with enough Kegare can be turned into a demon, and if purified fast enough can turn back into a human. But if the being is too seeped into Kegare to the point that they have fully accepted it then they can no longer be purified and changed back into the normal form and now must be killed. There is no equivalent for this is Christian myth.

In other words the similarities shared between them are superficial just like the similarities shared between Judeo Christianity and Shintooism in real life. The localizers used Judeo Christianity because it was recognizable and not really because it truly fit.

Emperyons aren't like seraphs at all, in fact they're just like really powerful Kami.

edited 22nd Jul '17 1:52:09 PM by TheTropeEater

Comparisons and similarities between religions has always been a thing, and the "not really like angels" doesn't really matter. The idea of God and his angels being seen as a pantheon in its own right is a thing in some series, precisely because of the roles they serve and their role as messenger, warriors, etc fits the numerous duties deities of other pantheons have too. Of course there are many other differences between them, but it's not for nothing that some obscure angels are based on deities of other pantheons.

Or the entire Goetia being demonized Gods.

Also really powerful Kami can easily be reinterpreted as "Really Powerful Angels" because The poweset of angels all vary widely. The Empyrean really can be seen as like the Archangels.

edited 22nd Jul '17 2:03:58 PM by OmegaRadiance

That would be true, if not for the fact that Zestira's entire set up makes it so that the it goes in depth into the things that actually make Shintoism different from Judeo Christianity, therefore creating a false equivalency. Heck you're displaying perfectly.

You speak of "God and his Pantheon of angels" but that isn't the set up for Zestiria or for shintoism in general. In fact the emperyons make it clear that just like Kami, they're not gods, they're just stronger Kami than average. In reality the empyeroyons do not rule over the other tenzoku, and with the exception of Maotelus and Innominat the emperyons aren't responsible for the creation of the other kami, nor do they really rule over them, because the emperyons are also tenzoku. Sure you'll have other tenzoku that will choose to listen to the more powerful tenzoku, but just empyerons and defer to them out of respect for their strenggth but they have no obligation to do it, in fact many of them don't. It is not a higher power that put the Emperyons in charge either. Tenzoku also have a duality not just with Hyoma, but also with humans and other mortal beings, where they are different yet the same at the same time.

Also Judeo Christianity has many many differences from European Pagan religions as well, sure at some point in time the church made the argument that Pagan gods are really just angels or arc angels, but when you actually sit down and look at them, you'll realize that they aren't. In fact they actually don't have much of anything at all, which is why historically the church constantly rebranded Christianty and altered things so that it could fit a particular Pagan god or practice. In fact that's why modern Christians even depict angels with wings on their backs, its because when the Holy Roman Empire expanded and was "converting" the locals to Christianity, they actually started actively using false equivalency to get locals to convert and would violently squas all debates.

edited 22nd Jul '17 2:37:01 PM by TheTropeEater