"There may never be another Smash Bros. as hardcore as Melee."

Game communities in general are rife with You Keep Using That Word instances.

^^ While you have a very good point, phrases like "will always" in mediums that involve human ingenuity still kind of make me cringe instinctually. I can safely say I've defeated people I knew to be much more skilled than me in learning many fighting games (including Melee) by way of outwitting and ingenuity, in no small part because there's a lot of people out there who learn to do things like wavedash and assume that makes them automatically more skilled, then lose by way of underestimating their opponent / overestimating themselves.

What really bothers me is that those faux-competitive players aren't the only ones with false pride, but so are many casuals. Everyone seems to think that they are something special and that they deserve to win a game because they are. In wannabe-competitive players, it manifests in the drive to learn skills so you can feel superior to everyone else and watch them get angry as you mercilessly beat them up. In casual players, it manifests in their disdain of competitive players and a self-righteous belief that their own inherent specialness should allow them to win – and if that fails, it's blamed on the idea that "they are cheating", which a noble person such as oneself would of course never stoop to doing.

Kind of a minirant there. I don't accuse you or anyone here of this sort of behavior, I'm mostly just trying to explain my knee-jerk reactions again.

I'm better than every casual player I know, and I was probably among the worst 5 players at Pound 4. The gulf is not impenetrable but it's gaping.

What really bothers me is that those faux-competitive players aren't the only ones with false pride, but so are many casuals. Everyone seems to think that they are something special and that they deserve to win a game because they are. In wannabe-competitive players, it manifests in the drive to learn skills so you can feel superior to everyone else and watch them get angry as you mercilessly beat them up. In casual players, it manifests in their disdain of competitive players and a self-righteous belief that their own inherent specialness should allow them to win – and if that fails, it's blamed on the idea that "they are cheating", which a noble person such as oneself would of course never stoop to doing.

Yeah, that's why I'll always maintain that the major traits (and major irony) of both "Stop Having Fun" Guys and Scrubs are the like personality traits that they both share.

Meanwhile, sitting in the middle...

edited 9th Dec '10 3:42:26 PM by KnownUnknown

*has Smash on his mental list of things to never discuss, along with politics, religion, and weather*

^ Good idea.

Weather?

Mental lists.

edited 9th Dec '10 4:12:17 PM by KnownUnknown

Yes, I use and see power shields a lot more often in Brawl that I do in Melee, but I never see every last missile sent back at me by a shielding player either. The power shield now keeps your defense from breaking longer and lets you strike back or grab a flailing opponent easier. Like it should have done in the first place.

In Melee, at first glance pretty much every Melee reflector is redundant. You can learn to make use of Fox's or Mario's, but Mewtwo? His reflector is less effective than just timing you shield. And that's just against human players. Good luck getting four out of sixteen gun shots on higher level computers.

Man, don't get me started about the weather. They made one little upgrade to cater to the hardcore players, and suddenly everyone is like "oh geez its so cold and freezing im gonna run into something with my car" and "wah wah the tram wires are frozen now we can't let the trams drive anymore" and it's like FFS CRY SOME MOAR FAGGETS

I haven't even upgraded my shoes yet and I'm better at this shit than you are.

Eastern Germany represent, yo.

I got a bad feeling about the direction this topic is headed, but I"ll throw in my two cents anyhow:

1. I'm kinda sad to hear the news. Melee is easily my favorite game in the series, by simple virtue of being the best of both worlds. Competitive play isn't for everyone, but there are still a lot of people who like it. Why ruin their fun? I don't like "Stop Having Fun" Guys any more than the next troper, but I'm also completely sick of the "If you play competitively, you're a stop having fun guy" attitude some casuals have. Fun is subjective.

2. As another troper noted, L-cancelling isn't a glitch. It was intentionally programmed into SSBM, and it was actually toned down from the first game. Wavedashing is an exploit at worst. It's a side effect of Melee's airdodge, left in the game so players couldn't airdodge through the ground. Lastly, these abilites (along with other advanced techs like Double Jump Cancelling and Dash Dancing) were hardly gamebreakers. A lot of the slower, laggier characters in the game NEEDED these techs to keep up with the likes of Marth at high level play. If anything, they made the game MORE balanced.

Sorry if I sound like a broken record

edited 8th Sep '11 10:54:00 AM by OrangeSodaGuy

1. I'm kinda sad to hear the news. Melee is easily my favorite game in the series, by simple virtue of being the best of both worlds. Competitive play isn't for everyone, but there are still a lot of people who like it. Why ruin their fun? I don't like Stop Having Fun Guys any more than the next troper, but I'm also completely sick of the "If you play competitively, you're a stop having fun guy" attitude some casuals have. Fun is subjective.

You are my best friend in the world for the duration of my typing of this reply.

...I thought there was a Smash game being developed for the 3DS? Or was that another rumor?

I second that, but as far as I can tell, this topic hasn't been condemning the competitive fans or casuals for RUINING the games like some other sites' Smash Bros topics.

edited 9th Dec '10 4:38:17 PM by Customer

I like both games. I like Brawl a bit more than Melee. I like pointing out how ridiculous "hardcore vs. casuals" arguments are in this context, since you can find Brawl hardcore players who "can't go back to Melee because it's too easy without tripping and floating to keep me from pwning people nonstop". I kid you not.

I'd feel more charitably about the competitive scene of Smash Bros. if every single time I find the game being played in public, it wasn't always using the format that I find to be bland and constrictive.

There are no such things as "casual" and "hardcore"

You know Nintendo could do to make everyone happy?

Nothing.

Smash just stopped being fun for me. I don't know why. It's probably one of the most innovative fighters out there, but each installment after 64 exponentially stops feeling fresh the more I play it.

Yeah, that's nice, I still like it but you're entitled not to.

Competitive play isn't for everyone, but there are still a lot of people who like it. Why ruin their fun? I don't like Stop Having Fun Guys any more than the next troper, but I'm also completely sick of the "If you play competitively, you're a stop having fun guy" attitude some casuals have. Fun is subjective.

This I have to agree with. I've always found this wiki's use of "Stop Having Fun" to describe people who play games competitively to be insulting to the competitive crowd and it bugs the hell out of me. What if these gamers find fun in training and play a video game to the best at it? Nobody accuses Peyton Manning or Michael Phelps or Lionel Messi of not competing "for fun" in their respective sports because they don't play to the level of the folks who play those sports as a hobby. What makes video games so different that being good at them means you don't enjoy it?

edited 9th Dec '10 5:40:49 PM by NeoChaos

I always found Melee to be a little better than Brawl. Brawl was so slow, Melee had some insane crackpot speed which made me love it so much. I hope Nintendo makes the next Smash a little more like Melee in the pace department.

On the other hand, Brawl has one of the best OST's in Video Game History, so it's a tough pick.

That's because they aren't likely to throw a hissy fit because they couldn't avoid the front of the pirate ship and refuse to play another round until there are no items, no stage hazards and no timer.

They aren't likely to hassle you over using insert "low tier" here or to slide around with the jump dodge exploit eternally away from you. Most people I'd imagine are fortunate enough to avoid those player in real life, but they are annoying enough online. And yes I have encountered them in real life, who insist on playing this way even though we're not in a tournament. The difference between "competitive player" and "stop having fun guy" is his attitude. The trope page describes it better than me.

I'd still go for a Smash game with adjustable physics. Set it to Melee's, set it to Brawl's, set it somewhere in between, set it to ridiculous amounts on either end of the spectrum. Hilarity Ensues!

edited 9th Dec '10 5:50:11 PM by Blueeyedrat

I can't believe they affect the average casual player's experience unless the casual player goes out of his way to play many different people, in which case the term "casual" is questionable.

Like I said, most people are usually fortunate enough not to meet them offline, but they are annoying enough online.

Also, even if you're a big fan doesn't mean you're competitive player, or have the desire to really do more than mess around.