Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

I also like both Cerseis. And I agree they're not too different. We just see show Cersei more.

Show!Cersei is slightly more good-natured and level-headed.

I can't really see how book Cersei is sexist, she's no worse than several male characters in the series. In fact, she seems to be the only female character in the series who's even close to the deep end of the villainy pool.

How is having one — one — truly evil female character sexist? Why must every female character be tangibly sympathetic?

What I love about Book!Cersei is that she doesn't play Mama Bear or Women Are Wiser straight. She's certainly an attentive mother, but her attention turns her elder son into a monster and her neglect lets her younger children grow into nicer people. And she's not wise even if she thinks she is, and certainly no wiser than Robert, running the kingdom into the ground through sheer mismanagement and paranoia. A lesser series would have had Robert be a bumbling oaf with no positive points, and Cersei his hyper-competent, but long-suffering wife who should be in charge, because of course, she would do everything right.

edited 28th Jun '14 6:15:45 AM by CrimsonZephyr

Show!Cersei isn't sympathetic, she just isn't cartoonishly evil. There's a difference. And nobody called Cersei being evil sexist, just less interesting. You're really itching to disagree with people here.

Actually, I called Book!Cersei kind of sexist. It's just that it seems at times that she's evil because she dares to not be content with being what Westerosi culture expects a woman to be.

The reason Cersei is evil is because she's deeply jealous of people who are, generally, much more competent than her. If there was another woman leading House Lannister, she'd still envy her to death.

There are many Ladies around Westeros who rule their noble houses and are actually good at it. Cersei's problem is that she overestimates her own intelligence. She should have never been allowed anywhere near the court.

edited 28th Jun '14 9:00:26 AM by LogoP

This series already has plenty of cartoonishly evil men. Equity and fairness mandate that we have cartoonishly evil women as well.

edited 28th Jun '14 9:13:10 AM by MabuseTheGambler

There's a difference. Very few major players and none of the POV characters are cartoonishly evil. Reading about a clacking Card-Carrying Villain just ain't interesting. When I first heard that Cersei was going to have her own POV chapter, I hoped it would give a lot of insight to her character and make her understandable/sympathetic to the readers. I was wrong.

Cersei reminded superficial and unsympathetic. Why only have Jaime find redemption while Cersei remains an evil bitch? Especially when you consider that Cersei is more clearly damaged than Jaime.

edited 28th Jun '14 9:21:12 AM by LogoP

Uh...none of the PO Vs? Victarion is cartoonishly evil.

I found Cersei pretty understandable. She's adult female Joffrey except with Tywin as a role model and not Robert.

Getting inside a person's head doesn't mean that they'll end up sympathetic. I had no sympathy for Theon in ACOK for example. But despite what you may think, Cersei does have sympathetic traits.

"Reading about a cackling Card-Carrying Villain just ain't interesting."

Says you.

The best part about Vic's chapters is that he has no idea how evil he is.

edited 28th Jun '14 9:33:13 AM by MabuseTheGambler

It's funnier once you realize that Logo P's waifu is Roose Bolton.

Vic isn't really cartoonishly evil, though. Just thick and hardwired to follow a unique and brutal set of values.

Yeah, Cersei does have sympathetic traits. No one is denying that. But amonst the POV characters, she's one of the least sympathetic ones.

Is Roose a POV character? Do we get chapters dedicated to him? No? Then your arguement is invalid.

Edit: WTF does "waifu" even mean? That's got to be the most wapanese word i've ever heard.

edited 28th Jun '14 9:38:25 AM by LogoP

"[...] thick and hardwired to follow a unique and brutal set of values."

That's what I was trying to get across, yes. He doesn't do all this awful shit out of malice, but because he's expected to do it.

I think that, the only major Ironborn who can reasonably be called evil is Euron.

Well it depends on how you define what an evil person is.

If you're saying that only people who enjoy causing other people pain as evil then people like Cersei can't be lobbed under there. She's vindictive but she seems more uncaring than sadistic.

@Logo P Honestly, I find ADWD Tyrion to be less sympathetic than Cersei.

All that means is that she's Neutral Evil rather than Chaotic Evil like her son.

We've yet to meet an Ironborn who isn't evil, although Asha's the least evil of them. They all make their living by robbing and murdering people who are already poor, and consider it immoral to make a living any other way (e.g., by work, or trade).

The Harlaws ,from the books, seem to be the Ironborn equivalent of scholars and relatively decent.

Fair enough, I'll give you Rodrick the Reader as a non-evil Ironborn. It says something about their culture that everyone else disdains him for loving knowledge.

edited 28th Jun '14 2:00:01 PM by WarriorEowyn

It's true : / Funnily enough, Theon is half-Harlaw. He could have been a maester!

That's kind of a problem I have with them. Their whole culture is just a caricature, like a lot of the non-Westerosi cultures.

Nothing disqualifying him from becoming one now, is there? 'sides, the undisclosed Very Bad Thing Ramsay did to his bathing suit area with a knife would... certainly help with the whole vow of celibacy thing.

We've met plenty of non-evil Ironborn.

Baelor Blacktyde and Tris Botley(although this guy is the epitome of Nice Guy) for instance.

Asha and Theon aren't evil either.

Theon's just El Douche and Asha is a pretty decent person.

edited 28th Jun '14 4:55:46 PM by MadSkillz

I'd say that Theon (pre-Reek) was evil.

I wouldn't say evil.

I think the text makes it clear that he's not an evil person but he tries to be for the approval and respect. (Making him a terrible person but not evil)

It's more that he's completely pathetic and weak.

But then my standard for evil is Gregor Clegane, Roose, Tywin and Ramsay.

edited 28th Jun '14 5:04:28 PM by MadSkillz