The Order of the Stick

Then people complicate this by making tropes like "Mary Suetopia" (a perfect utopia that conforms unrealistically easily to the author's particular worldview), and then once you apply Mary Sue-ishness to things that aren't people, it's easy to apply it to things such as other races. In fact, badly-written cases of Our Elves Are Better and Can't Argue with Elves are an immediate case of "Mary Sue Race" that comes to mind — unearthly beauty, overly fancy names, everyone good loves them and everyone evil hates them, their "wisdom" is the author commenting on the plot, and they excel at everything from music to warfare because they've had time to practice. And then once you start thinking of "Mary Sue" as a quality that could apply to races, why, the sky's the limit.

And, of course, there's Space Elves. I love you, Madeleine L'Engle, but all of your good aliens are just too darn good!

I don't get what you're saying. Applying the Mary Sue label to things other than people, like races or civilizations, is good or bad in your view? (That it happens is hardly arguable, if you've read the Inheritance Cycle or The Kingkiller Chronicle you'll see what I mean.)

edited 15th Oct '14 11:13:12 AM by Ninety

I'm saying it's a thing that happens. I mean, we started this discussion because someone was complaining about a race of — gnomes? Kemder? I don't play D&D, sorry — that they thought were a Mary Sue race. And it's a bit troublesome because this complicates the term "Mary Sue" which is already super muddied up, to the point of meaning "any female character I don't like" — but on the other hand, when you're discussing author's intent, and the author's desire to make it clear that this race, this utopia, this character is their favorite and the best, the term "Mary Sue" really helps to communicate that.

It lends itself to decay of the original concept. The problem with Mary Sue as an idea isn't that it doesn't exist. Far from it; it's a very common feature of amateur writing, and probably a normal stage in the development of good writing skills. Who hasn't, as a child, imagined themselves the hero of some fictional universe, slaying badguys with the power of awesomeness?

Most of us eventually grow out of this and imagine more realistic characters, but those who don't are whom the Mary Sue concept is intended to call out.

The problem, then, is that as a tool of literary criticism it has been taken and run with to the point where it can be used to describe any character, thing, or idea that the reader believes is unrealistically ideal. Ergo, it has lost any real value as a tool of literary criticism.

edited 15th Oct '14 11:16:45 AM by Fighteer

Is it just me or does Haley's line feel a few years... late? I feel like steampunk was "super trendy" a few years back, and it's been kind of declining since then. Not to say it's not still popular, in the sense that lots of people still like it, but I feel like Rich kinda missed the boat on this joke.

The problem with Mary Sues isn't just on the part of the writer but also based on the reader's expectations. Like when I was going over part of the Ramayana, Rama himself seemed ridiculously perfect and flawless to me, but then that's supposed to be the point of who he is and what the whole story is about. The story wasn't written for me, so when I try to read it he comes off as something of a Sue.

And yes, Burlew is kind of late to the joke on this one.

edited 15th Oct '14 11:48:22 AM by Arha

Guy in panel 2 with the top hat. Instantly reminded of this song.

Actually, from my own personal observations, steampunk has become more broadly popular and less niche-ly popular of late.

Yeah, this. It seems to be gradually radiating out from being a geek subculture to a general "stock geek thing" to a more mainstream thing. I remember the mainstream media took a brief interest a year or two ago, in one of those "the latest* weird-but-kinda-cool thing those internet folks are up to".

*(the one we most recently found out about that's been going on for years.)

But I wouldn't really call something trendy because it goes mainstream. Trendy implies that people are jumping on it because it's the hip new thing. That's what steampunk was. I feel like these days, people who like steampunk appreciate it for its inherent appealing qualities, not the whiz-bang shiny new trend factor.

edited 20th Oct '14 12:50:12 PM by Ishntknew

And then a new comic happened.

And just when I was about to gripe about someone bumping the thread without a new comic!

I knew they kept her around for a reason.

Work those social skills, Haley! There's a reason your class has so many ranks per level. Also,

edited 20th Oct '14 12:59:30 PM by Fighteer

Now the question...what skill did she roll :D?

I believe Diplomacy is the default skill for haggling. I'll have to check the SRD.

edited 20th Oct '14 1:19:11 PM by Fighteer

If she's clever enough, all of them.

Like, ALL of them. She found a way to use Climb in this negotiation.

edited 20th Oct '14 1:19:47 PM by TobiasDrake

Diplomacy and Bluff, with an undercurrent of Intimidate?

So is Durkula's comment just role-playing, or does Hel's Super-Evil Plan have some kind of deadline to meet?

I think Haley both told them the truth "the very fabric of reality is at stake" and also offered them a cut of the impossibly large loot stash they'll get if they suceed

Oh, I'm sure there's mechanics who'd still say that the rush job is "more than my job's worth", fabric of the universe at stake or no.

This is pretty damn low on the list of impossible things Diplomacy can do. With a middling skill rank, it's not too difficult to convince a queen that you're the long lost heir to the throne, and she should immediately abdicate in your favor. The mechanics of Diplomacy were really poorly thought out.

I suspect that Haley had an attack of cross-Genre Savvy, and guessed that the mechanic was having an attack of the Scotties. Never let the captain expect too much, that way you can look like a miracle worker when you need to.

I have a suspicion that for this speed of the repairs, she had just bought a new ship.

Or agreed test some Mad Science automated repairs dock.

edited 20th Oct '14 2:22:36 PM by Adannor

Funny, I'd think Bandanna would be a better haggler, all things considered.