Girl Genius

Well, so much for Gil's nice and dramatic "He's NOT going to DIE." promise.

Nevertheless, unexpected and amusing twist! Well done once again, Foglios.

I thought resurrected people can't be royal heirs or something like that.

Interesting, though.

Revival isn't liked by the Houses. No. Back when Zulenna Luzhakna meets Dupree sharp pointy end first this is established.

Which is part of the interest. What happens to Tarvek's claim if he's been revived?

On the whole this is a stunningly great page. The amount of work they get done with this one is enormous. Wonder if they'll go this route, or Gil's Si Vale Valeo will win, or Gil's nasty and wonderful prods will force Agatha to start some really serious Sparkin'.

So many potential paths, so little actual page time. Sigh...

Me, I am in awe of the way they ahve now officially placed Tarvek and Gil in balance in Agatha's heart. (grin) No matter how it turns out, it is a much, much better story when she loves them both...or, given the limited time any of them have had to get to know each other, she at least likes the potential.

Maybe the Kestle CAN open up those harems. (grin-grin-grin)

When Zulenna was killed fighting Bang, it was mentioned that the Great Houses generally look very unfavorably on having their members revivified.

It would be a shame if that happened to Tarvek, wouldn't it...

"Great minds think alike." Not exactly a Slap-Slap-Kiss, but ...

Poor Tarvek

Personally I don't want Tarvek intruding on the sweetness that is Gil and Agatha.

Anyway, I hadn't thought about resurrection destroying his legitimacy. That's an interesting twist. I'm pretty sure that's something Agatha would want—to foil his "Storm King" ambitions—but I'm not sure. It's certainly something Gil would want.

I don't know if Agatha would think of that immediately, but Gil certainly would.

Oh, I love Gil and Agatha. I am pretty sure Gil is fated to win the girl in the end, too. But I also like a bit of plot competition, and I really don't like it when it's just bait-and-switch. With Tarvek...I kinda like Tarvek and he's a Worthy Competitor. Different, and devious, but not just a throw away Red Herring Boy Trope.

Agatha and Gil will remain sweet no matter how it turns, because the Creators clearly love them sweet. I trust the Foglios...but I also trust them to use Tarvek with a bit of grace and kindness, too...and this plays into that, for me. Watching Gil and Agatha both trying to find a way to deal with Tarvek as a real emotional factor will be interesting. Far more interesting than if he were just a superficial diversion for Gil to be jealous of for no really good reason.

This... will not end well.

Or maybe it will. Who knows? The Foglios are geniuses who always keep us guessing. :)

Hippogrif: I see your point, but—maybe it's just me, but I didn't really see Agatha as having as much UST with Tarvek as she had with Gil. Like, it seems like it was sort of manufactured for this arc (in fact, to me it almost seems like that was the point of the Cinderella thing), just so they could have the kind of dynamic you're talking about.

Not that it won't be interesting, but still.

I don't think that Agatha has any UST with Tarvek. She likes him, but not that way. He's interested in her, but how much of that is simply habitual flirting with a pretty girl, how much is trying to win an incredibly powerful girl, and how much is genuine affection for Agatha as Agatha is unclear.

I know it was said in the link here to the comic, but there's really only one way to show appreciation for today's strip.

OOOOOOOH...

EDIT: Now y'see, THIS is why I think having an increase-text-sixe maximum of 5 would be good. 3 is just too limiting.

edited 13th Aug '09 10:48:43 PM by Sabbo

Haven— I hear you, too. Very much so.

For me the thing is that my current OCD plot-frenzy was kicked off by Tarvek reaching MY PERSONAL point of there being enough there raise a lot of questions and send me back to the text. Ok, the Cinderella story interested me, but at that point it did surprise me a bit. Somewhere around the time Tarvek showed up the the Castle it started a long re-read and reevaluate for me, and I came away with a MUCH stronger sense of there being a lot of careful work and character building back in Sturmhalten that the Byzantine stuff kind of obscured.

Tarvek is more difficult than Gil to read—that devious, Byzantine thing and the Crazed Family and the absolute dream-catcher web of plots knotted around him. But—on re-read he comes across as being just as smitten and vulnerable to Agatha as Gil is...but far less able to move in a straight line over it. And Agatha comes across as being pretty nearly as intrigued by Tarvek as she is by Gil, and even more than she is by Lars. Yet even Zeetha thought Agatha was quite taken with Lars, for good reason.

She also comes across as both liking and distrusting both boys for similar reasons: we may see Gil as a pretty straight arrow, but Agatha sees him (quite rightly) wrapped up in his Daddy's politics and policies. She loves how he admires her Spark, and that he thinks she's good at things. But she doesn't like that she can't quite trust him.

Tarvek has chalked up the same brownie points and demerits, almost identically. May have even gone one better by inviting her to come work on the Muses with him, all shy and bashful like, rather than just coming up with an impromptu marriage proposal out of left wing.

Anyway, as I said, my own take on my recent Fangirl forage through the canonical shrubberies leads me to feel that there is nothing in the least bit sudden or manufactured about Tarvek or forced about the idea that Agatha is just a bit conflicted. I think she likes Gil best...but...but...Tarvek's pretty cute, and, in some very particular ways, far sweeter and better at communicating his attraction than Gil. And from Agatha's POV BOTH young men are about as easy to trust as a toothpick bridge over an eight hundred foot chasm.

For the record, I suspect Tarvek really is the less trustworthy. I'm pretty sure that he's not just chasing Agatha around the Castle because he missed her pretty green eyes. But pretty much all the plotting he's involved in was well underway months and possibly years before Agatha ever showed up on Sturmhalten's front step, and the momentum is pretty frantic. For a boy tryin' to improvise a combination of successful Plot To Take Over The World AND a romance, well, he's not doing THAT badly. He's still a game playing manipulative snake. Just...I suspect he's a rather sweet one all said and done.

Me, I think that the Creators intend to live up to the subtitle, about Adventure, Romance, and Mad Science. The adventure and the mad science are so easy to spot it's easy to underplay or simplify the romance. But I suspect they are playing out a perfectly healthy young 18 year old with a really NICE assortment of potential guys, and too little experience of most of them so far to do more than grin, fluster and hope.

How do you insert a link in this system? I don't want to clutter up the bb and I can't do the cites on Agatha/Tarvek interactions without either links or urls.

edited 13th Aug '09 11:09:38 PM by Hippogrif

[[url pothole text]]

See "Show Markup Help" on the posting screen and Text-Formatting Rules

THANKS!!!!!!!!!

When they start to get agitated in about panel three from the back, I get the feeling they are both almost reaching the Sparky state of mind.

Erik

Third to last? No, not that one. But the second to last and last panels have sparky (or at least angry) dialogue boxes, meaning by the end they definitely ARE in the madness place by now.

Also, this comic is totally win.

PS: Sabbo, I think this is good evidence that we should NOT have larger sized font. The font you just used is plenty big enough to get the point/joke across; any larger would get obnoxious, and if it was as large as I suspect you really want it it'd be very obnoxious.

Long. Too long.

Given: I think Gil is the intended victor in this three way...either that or there's a resolution outside standard romance endings. The harems are opened up, there's a hero we don't know about, etc...

Given: Tarvek is absolutely a manipulative, Machiavellian sneak. No argument. I am not trying to turn him into Mama Grif's Very Good Boy. I do think he's the younger child of a family of sneaks, accustomed to having power only by outplaying the other contenders for it. I also think he's in the middle of an ongoing Catastrophic Scheme he almost can't have been originally responsible for, that goes back at least as far as his infancy and probably well before his birth. He gets a few brownie points for trying to be caring, supportive and generous in the face of that sort of conditioning.

In an odd way I see him as a narrative parallel to Agatha: but where with Agatha we're given all the details to know she's a Good Guy not the Evil Creature Klaus thinks she is, with Tarvek we only get fragments. With Gil, too, we get the background that gives all his actions justification and context. With Tarvek we get only a few fragments of what is happening. But the Foglios are giving us a LOT more "good guy" bits than if he were intended to be a seriously evil character.

Even Lucrezia/Other has been given ONE empathy scene. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060922 Does anyone but me wonder what either Lucrezia or The Other walked away from not sure if she'd ever return?

Ok, for any who care, here's a long run through what I see as the development arc with Tarvek and Agatha during the Sturmhalten story with annotations of my own spin. I see it as creating a definite progression of attraction, intimacy, and good, sensible mutual distrust and manipulation...

Her first obvious reaction to him, when he's being a bit abashed over his feelings of obligation to Tinka: Honorable http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20051107

Her reaction underlined when drugged out of her tiny little skull: TMI—or, One More Revelation http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20051114 Yes, he IS cute, isn't he?

Ok, this one matters in weird ways. Whether they turn into "just friends," enemies, or play a round or two of courtship, the top frame of this page is a moment when both sort of adopt each other emotionally on the basis of a serious load of empathy:

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060109

Before you ask what in the name of heaven Agatha's history has to parallel Tarvek's...how much difference is there REALLY between wanting to become the acknowledged Heterodyne and wanting to become the Storm King? There ain't that much difference between their explosive family secrets or the burden those secrets place on either of them.

Is this a date? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060109

And he really does appear to intend to let her go so he can have his little plot with her out of the way and in the clear, and he DOES appear to be completely sincere in setting up a date over the Muses. There is really no reason to believe he's not as thrilled to find a Female He Can Talk To as Gil is, after all...

If we stop there, and take that as exactly the set-up the Foglios want us to see, we have two young people distinctly attracted, but each currently otherwise occupied by more pressing issues. Tarvek has a premature revolution set underway by Anevka to try to ride out: he's on the back of the tiger and he can't really get off. Agatha needs to get to Mechanicsberg. The two are definitely interested enough to do the equivalent of making a date, however. If they had phone numbers or email or Facebook they'd have exchanged contact info...And Agatha's attraction to Gil doesn't get in the way of her interest in Tarvek in the least little bit. I'd consider her as believing herself a free agent. Gil thinks she's dead, she has no plans to tell him otherwise...and Tarvek is sweet, cute, Sparky, and attracted to her own Spark. Niiiiiiiize. Very niiiiize.

Then the plot shifts AGAIN, and Lady Vrin "overwrites" The Other onto Agatha. My own interpretation is that Tarvek arrives too late to save Agatha, truly believes her to be dead as a result of the overwrite (I mean, even unsuccessful overwrites killed the girls—no reason for him to think a successful one would leave Agatha still alive in the skull...) So at this point he's trying to survive AND to use Agathoid Lucrezia as his own lever in the power game Anevka is playing. She has the first version of the voice and is on her way out of the Castle. He needs to cooperate enough to allow her to consolidate their power base, but he needs to be able to take back the power over the people when he turns Anevka off. For that he needs Lucrezia.

Confirmation that he thought she was already dead...This does read as genuine. He's been being Tarvek, rolling with the punches and doing the best he can with a situation he assumed he couldn't change. Agatha was dead, Lucrezia was up and running, and he could gamble or kill her. He chooses to gamble. But his real emotional response on finding Agatha alive seems sincere, if only because startled out of him. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060331

And again: he really does seem sincerely glad she lived...and definitely a bit betwittered. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060405

This one feels like the heart of the issue to me: him holding her so she can work, admitting he's not fully trustworthy while asking for trust—and her turning the tables on him over the trust issue. Whether it plays for you or not, I do think it's intended to show a degree of intimacy above and beyond just partnership of desperation...for both of them. Expecting him to give up his desire for the Crown is a bit much: It appears to have been the only road to power, control or freedom he's been offered for much of his life and lord knows it's all well underway. Stopping it would be like stopping an elephant in musth with only a fly swatter. But within that limit—that Tarvek can't and won't turn away from The Master Plan at this stage of the game—he seems to to be very badly taken with Agatha, and she, in her own way, attracted to him, though she's smart enough to know she's playing with fire. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060407

Having his cake and eating it too. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060426 So, here, yes he wants the power offered by Agathoid Lucrezia. He may even feel he should have killed her (and AGATHA) rather than take the risk. Power does motivate him...enough that I suspect he would sacrifice Agatha. But...I also think Lucrezia's later comments that he believes he can save Agatha AND have the kingdom are quite accurate.

I suspect one should never, ever allow Tarvek to go to Vegas with one's life savings. The boy would be far too likely to gamble everything on a single round of blackjack.

The Reveal http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060526 And, as I said, I think this is a very accurate version of what Tarvek hopes to achieve: win over Anevka, gain the power over the empire, free the beautiful girl, and live happily ever after, designing beautiful clothes and beautiful courts, and inventing centralized government, just like the Sun, er, Storm King.

The Regret http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060628 Want to point this out not simply because, yes, he's betraying her and regretting it, but because the same reaction is seen far more potently when he shuts down Anevka....

....here. These two pages go together. Between them they cover that Tarvek does indeed betray people he loves, but at a hell of a cost. He's not betraying people casually or without regrets. There's no room for this kind of theatrical reaction with Agatha's betrayal, and with Agatha there's the real hope of revival so one suspects the regret is a bit less deep. However the Foglios are making sure in both pages that the readers see that Tarvek isn't callous about all this. Tarvek is being carefully painted as a multidimensional fellow. He could still turn out to be the villain, but he's a villain with a LOT of "pat the dog" bits included to suggest he should indeed be liked. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060913

Ah, the music. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061018 Entirely minor point, but he didn't tailor the music out, when he tailored the recording. (He did tailor the recording...snake. Bad boy for claiming otherwise. Shame, Tarvek, shame!) But one suspects he WANTS the music to be available for later use...

Final reckoning before The Castle: Given his self-sacrifice (Lars foreshadowing, and equally valorous) I am inclined to believe his spin. If he dies, what would he gain? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061020

The squabbling between the two after the Gheisterdammen slices him up and the soldiers show...that's at least up there with any of Agatha and Gil's squabbles, and Agatha for all she's ready to scold him quite completely, also seems ready to stand by him and treat him as, well, as HERS. By this time she's as close to him and as fully accepting of him as part of her personal circle as she is of any of her other friends...and as willing to rip him up one side and down the other for being a sneaky, snaky jerk. But HER jerk...

Outstanding concerns: I understand why he lied about who doctored the Agatha's "Princess Leia" recording so that it implicated the Baron. He IS still trying to take over the world, and he wants the Baron at a disadvantage and he wants control over Agatha's powers without an inspection for the Other occurring. He's a snake. I suspect that's also why he had her pushing the red button on the tiny slaver wasp engine—so the wasp would control her. But I am less sure of that: he may have wanted control over the soldiers so that he and Agatha could escape with a Wulfenbach honor guard protecting them. I don't get the red button routine.

edited 14th Aug '09 3:08:45 AM by Hippogrif

PS: Sabbo, I think this is good evidence that we should NOT have larger sized font. The font you just used is plenty big enough to get the point/joke across; any larger would get obnoxious, and if it was as large as I suspect you really want it it'd be very obnoxious.

[+++++Text+++++] Isn't that big. And that's what I think the limit should be. :/

Next page will be FUN!

I suspect Violetta might have an opinion on this plan.

Wow. Excellent analysis Hippogrif. I missed a lot of that on even my second readthrough. In particular, I somehow didn't see that he'd mentioned the Storm King there—I thought that was entirely new to this arc.

I think the reason I thought it was contrived is because Agatha talks about Gil all the time, and compared to that, didn't really mention Tarvek much between leaving Sturmhalten and his return to the story. But yeah, the characterization is definitely there, it's just more subtle, and caught in the Thirty Xanatos Pileup.

Brickman: I suspect Violetta might have an opinion on this plan.

Probably something like: "So you're going to kill him, and then bring him back? I won't stand for it...unless I'm the one holding the knife! Ahahaha! Feel my fury! Hey, can we do that again?"

Brickman says: <<I suspect Violetta might have an opinion on this plan. >>

The big question being whether she will feel obliged to ban it outright, or gleefully kill Tarvek herself on the grounds that she wil never get a better chance that will pass Grandmother's examination...I mean, how often can you kill your annoying cousin and have your family admit it was the only way to save the beggar's life!

Haven says: "Wow. Excellent analysis Hippogrif."

Blush. I don't OCD on Text Forage often, but when I do I really, really do go into the academic's Madness Place.

" I missed a lot of that on even my second readthrough. In particular, I somehow didn't see that he'd mentioned the Storm King there—I thought that was entirely new to this arc."

Oh, yeah. Storm King is no-way a casual add-on. So near as I can tell this whole freakin' narrative is one solid Chekov's Arsenal. Which, if it isn't a subtrope of Chekov's Gun, should be, and should be applied only to rare things like this. These folks have taken "economy of detail" and turned it into an extreme sport requiring crash gear and safety nets. (Ah, I see now that I look that there is indeed a Chekov's Armory, though it seems a bit negative. I consider the Foglio's economy of detail too well done to be seen as anything but built like a brick outhouse.)

My rule of thumb with them is that, first, if I was wondering where something came from I should go back and check: it's already set up somewhere. Further, if I am in any doubt about whether a detail is a throw away, I must assume it isn't. I'm still trying to work out how to express the utility of the inner-fiction fictions, like Cinderella, which are absolutely not factual but which keep proving to be thematically true to the spirit of the overall game.

<<I think the reason I thought it was contrived is because Agatha talks about Gil all the time, and compared to that, didn't really mention Tarvek much between leaving Sturmhalten and his return to the story. But yeah, the characterization is definitely there, it's just more subtle, and caught in the Thirty Xanatos Pileup. >>

Oooh, I like that term. Thirty Xanatos Pileup. It does sound cool...

The reality of that planning and the Chekov's Arsenal aspects of the comic are what make me happy that they're fielding Tarvek as a serious contender for Agatha's attention. He's not a cheap trick. He's vital to the entire plot, they've taken time to give him real claim to Agatha's attention, he's got strengths and charms that are seriously real and seriously different from Gil's...

No pissy little throw away, here. Instead they're using a character they care about, have planned for, and have invested in and they're using him with storyteller's honor. With that assurance I am delighted to see where they take it all, because I am really certain they'll play fair and give me a story that matters on all the levels of the narrative. They're not going to just jerk our chains to hear us squeal. It's going to matter: to the characters and to the story.

That is why it was worth writing way too long a post to pick out some of the details of the arc. When that much work has gone in, it's important that people realize it. The authors deserve the credit for the effort they've made and they deserve the readers' trust, because they've earned the trust.

edited 14th Aug '09 8:50:06 PM by Hippogrif

This page amused the heck out of me. Especially the last panel. Anyone else here read His Dark Materials?

"And not for the first time, Will saw that he and Lyra had the exact same expression on their faces. Will remembered that moment for a long time afterward."

... Now I'll never be able to take that scene quite seriously again.

Good for Gil, too, provoking Agatha to get her into the Madness Place. It'd work, too.