Headscratchers / Turtles Forever

• Aren't the '87 Turtles supposed to have distinct personalities? I mean, what happened to "Leonardo leads, Donatello does machines/Raphael is cool but crude, Michelangelo is a party dude"?
  • Well the 2003 turtles followed the same formula, but the movie emphasized how the 2k3 turtles were grittier and more...realistic shall we say (yes, this troper knows they're giant talking turtles!) compared to the '87 counterparts. There's also the fact that the 2k3 turtles seemed to be the main characters of the show with the other turtle variations as guests (most likely because the 2k3 series was what was being run). Given all of that, the movie's creators seemed to just go with "'87 turtles are all goofy and cartoonish, keep using what we have for the 2k3 turtles".
  • They may have had different quirks, but their personalities in the original cartoon always had a fair amount of overlap. Think back to the five-episode pilot (which is apparently where the Turtles Forever producers got most of their cues from)—it had plenty of scenes where the turtles acted "goofy and cartoonish" (their scene at the pizza parlor, the scene at April's apartment). Now,this doesn't mean that the movie couldn't have done a better job of making them distinct—'88 Leo, in particular, got shafted by the fact that '03 turtles were calling the shots—but given the time constraints, I think the movie generally did an excellent job of portraying them.
  • Sure they threw the old series a bone every now and then, but to me it seemed like most of the time the '87 turtles were only there to be made fun of, so everyone could see how much more "awesome" the 2003 series apparently is. I did enjoy seeing the original turtles from the comics wipe the smug looks off the 2003 turtles faces though.
    • The thing about TF is that it's written by the 2K3 show's writers, and I'm guessing that they were trying to be as respectful as they could while working with their own Turtles, who they know better. The writers weren't being disparaging toward the '87 show; at its worst it felt like Affectionate Parody more than anything, and I honestly assume they were taking the older show's Flanderization to its logical extreme^note That is, the Flanderization that would have taken place if not for the Red Sky seasons, which were rightfully ignored anyway. It's worth noting that I'm a HUGE fan of the older show and never watched the 2K3 show (the idea of an alien Shredder was too weird for me), and I STILL enjoyed the '87 Turtles' roles in TF—in truth, it made me remember how much fun the older show was.
    • Along with this argument, '87 Donatello actually did build something with a bunch of junk. Something that '03 Donatello deemed as 'just a flashlight.'
    • Not to mention the exploding throwing stars, and their efficiancy at taking out the original Foot robots. If you think about it, the wackiness of the '87 Turtles universe actually gave them something the 2k3's lacked: creativity.
    • This can best be explained when you remember that one of the co-creators of the original comics, Peter Laird, helped produce the 2003 series, and Laird has gone on record as saying that he did not like how the 87 series turned out. In particular, the overall goofy/childish nature of the show and its deviation from the original source. So the flanderization of the 87 turtles in this film and turning most of the characters from their universe into jokes, is most likely because of Peter Laird's own disdain for the series they come from.
• What was so stupid about the exploding throwing stars? Batman has exploding batarangs.
  • Possibly the fact that they were built in an alternate dimension in a sewer. They could be unstable. Drop one and boom.
    • I was under the impression that it wasn't the invention itself, but the fact that they went out of their way to get something that Don (either of them, since upgraded throwing stars have played a part in the 2003 series, as well) could have constructed in less time than traveling between dimensions took. Heck, it would've taken less time than just putting together the "Transdimensional portal stick", if the way those two were working together was anything indication.
• Shouldn't the Mirage Turtles screaming "SHREDDER!" at the Technodrome have clued in Ch'rell that something's up? How would they know he was the one in that thing?
  • For all the talk that the 2K3 Shredder is the most competent Shredder, it's actually pretty consistent with Ch'rell's established personality that he wouldn't question a minor detail like that — not when he has more important things on his mind, like boasting to the Mirage-Turtles about his status as the One True Shredder.
• Why did they abandon the Party Wagon when they were running from the white void? Couldn't they have gone faster in it?
  • Well, they don't know what the void is at that point. They're driving along, and then the void comes up in front of them, so they stop the Party Wagon in order to get out and take a closer look. By the time they've finished the expository dialogue, the void is already starting to erase the Party Wagon.
    • Besides that they ARE Ninjas. They do jump on roofs a quite a quick speed.
• Why did April and Casey just stop and let themselves be erased by the white void?
  • April and Casey clearly aren't as fast as the Turtles, so they lagged behind. April was overtaken by the void; she didn't actually stop running before she was surrounded by it and realized that she was in the middle of being erased. Casey stopped because he heard April's cry of terror behind him and looked like he wanted to rush up to her to save her. If you watch the scene, you'll see that Raphael stops too when Casey vanishes, but Leonardo makes him continue running.
• Okay, if the Technodrome has alledgedly been driving around the Mirage version of New York and destroying buildings all night, why are the Mirage Turtles wasting their time messing about on the rooftops and trying to kill their counterparts instead of trying to do something about it?
  • Because the original Mirage Turtles are not actually heroes. They are psychotic anti-heroes who just happen to horribly butcher criminals. Being selfless and heroic is not in their nature.
    • Still, they're smart enough that they know that, if something is killing everything else, they'll die as well. They're not above heroism if for pragmatic/selfish reasons.
  • The Mirage Turtles were most likely scoping out the situation. From their perspective, Ch'rell's Upgraded Technodrome was destroying the city and they, by themselves, had no way to tackle it. Only once they fight their assumed 'imitators' and are told the Shredder is involved with the attacking Technodrome do the Mirage Turtles readily listen to their counterparts and unite with them on a plan. In fact, Ch'rell expecting the Mirage Turtles to choose reckless heroism over pragmatic antiheroism may have served as a Spanner in the Works as he was clearly trying to draw the Mirage Turtles out by doing something that would have drawn the 2003 Turtles out.
• Is it me or are the original Turtles flanderized too? From what I've read in the comics it wasn't half as dark and depressing; that'd be pretty boring anyway.
  • Except that this is the Mirage Turtles from their first issue, where they were basically a parody of Frank Miller-type grim-n-gritty action.
• What role do the Turtles have to the integrity of reality, exactly? Their cosmic connection to the fabric of existence seems to weigh pretty heavily, though for no discernible reason. They're silent protectors of New York City, but also the linchpin in holding together all that is and ever will be?
  • It's all meta. The universe the Turtles inhabit is the world of cartoons, comic books and video games. None of the franchise would exist if the original comic hadn't been created. Hence, destroying it destroys the Turtle-multiverse.
    • Maybe I missed the relevant episodes but nothing I saw portrays Che'rell as suicidal. I know he hates the turtles but he hates them enough to eliminate himself? Why?
    • It's not that he's suicidal, just that he hates the turtles so much that the realization that there's hundreds of versions of them sends him off the deep end, to the point where he cares about nothing else except destroying them. He's clearly not thinking rationally at that point.
• Could Ch'rell have ever completed his plan? In the last deleted scene, we see that as he gets close to killing the Mirage Turtles, everything else - including the giant fist that's crushing them - fades out of existence faster than the Turtles themselves. Which makes sense, metafictionally. But if they're still around when Ch'rell disappears, they'd survive, bounce back because their injuries have No Ontological Inertia, everything else comes back, Ch'rell attacks again, they fight back — nothing he could do would ever stick, and eventually they'd win, just because they can't lose.
  • Quite possibly not. It's impossible to know but it's clearly a paradox when you consider that the mechanics of Turtle Prime is essentially Time Travel and Ch'rell is effectively attempting to murder his grand parents, great grand parents, great great grandparents. . .however you want to treat 2k3 in relationship to the live action trilogy and '87 cartoons.
• When Hun is mutated into a turtle, he can still talk, but earlier, one of his mooks was mutated into a dog and lacks the ability to speak.
  • I admittedly haven't watched the show in years, but from what I recall, the mutations you got from ooze were pretty random.
• Krang and 80's Shredder recruited the Utrom Shredder in hopes of destroying the 8 cartoon turtles, so why did they try poisoning him? To elaborate, after rescuing the Utrom Shredder from the ice asteroid, 80's Shredder takes him to the Technodrome's engine room, puts on a gas mask, seals all the door and tells Krang "the word is given", at that point, some gas comes out of the vents and eventually knocks the Utrom Shredder unconsious.
  • It's probably because '87 Shredder noticed when they first woke him up that Ch'rell was so dangerous, he posed a threat to even his allies. Wonder where he got that idea . . .
• How different do the individuals of each universe actually look? I ask because several people, including Splinter who even given the poor lighting and quick look he got should have been able to tell the massive difference in height, clearly mistook the '87 turtles for the 2K3 turtles when they don't actually look enough alike for that. If they look as different to each other as they do to us I don't understand the mistaken identity. On the flip side as stupid as Shredder and Krang are why didn't either of them recognize Ch'rell as an Utrom? He looks enough like Krang that it wouldn't be a leap to assume they were the same species with similar superficial differences as there were between the different Turtle Teams.
  • There are no Utroms in the '87 turtleverse, so Shredder and Krang wouldn't be able to recognize Ch'rell as one. Krang's species don't actually look like him, since Krang is a disembodied brain who's lost his original body.
    • Considering the differences between the turtles and even the humans Shredder and Krang should still have recognized Ch'rell as a member of Krang's species who had been sentenced to the same punishment sometime prior to being exiled to space. It's even odder given the scene. Shredder and Krang figure out fairly quickly that if there are Ninja Turtles there must be a Shredder fighting them, they then look up Krang and find no such being. Upon summoning Shredder they summon something that given the differences in appearance between '87 and 2K3 verses should look similar enough to Krang to make the connection.
    • If disembodying criminals was a common thing among Krang's species, then as far as Krang knows Ch'rell could have been the disembodied brain of any member of any species who crossed Krang's people. Or he could've lost his body in a freak sci-fi accident. Or his species could, y'know, just naturally look like that (as is the case). Krang does remark on the resemblance, but he can't really know what's going on with the information he has. One could assume Shredder and Krang were going to question Ch'rell, but they weren't prepared for him being such a violent maniac. If anything, Ch'rell's resemblance to Krang made them underestimate him, since they probably assumed Ch'rell in his current state would be as useless as Krang is without his android body.
    • Bear in mind as well that Krang's species was actually shown in the original show when they jumped to CBS when he created a number of clones that grew bodies of their own, and they looked like twelve foot tall lizard-men with ridged spines down their backs and extended tails. In short, Krang not only wouldn't have considered Ch'Rell to be a member of his species, he wouldn't even consider him to be a brain. Mainly because in all truth, he's not. He's basically a blobby mass with tentacles.
• Is Ch'rell paranoid or what? Yes he saw turtles from other worlds, but they should be no concern to him. There are like a million other universes out there. What are the odds that the other million turtles will show up in the 2003 universe to fight Ch'rell? Pretty slim.
  • It's not paranoia, it's irrational hatred. Honestly if he hadn't been driven mad by the revelation (so much so that starting with Karai but eventually even Hun turn on him) he would have come to the much more logical and (if not for the fact that villains can't win) successful plan of uniting the Multiverse of Shredders most of whom are quite capable of defeating their respective Turtles in a fair fight.
• Karai's line at the end implies that 2003 Shredder could still be alive. He does have this annoying habit of surviving his battles. If he is alive, then he is stuck in the mirage world. What's stopping him from trying to kill the mirage turtles again?
  • Well he wouldn't have access to the Technodrome's resources anymore. Even if he found the Mirage Utroms, the fact that he's an actual color would tip them off.
  • In addition to the above Ch'rell isn't that much more talented than Leonardo. Given the completely onesided beating the Mirage Turtles gave the combined 2k3 and '87 (I know the '87 turtles were largely incompetent) I would not take odds on Ch'rell 1v1 vs any of the turtles and certainly not as a group. Finally even if he did survive his suit certainly didn't. I haven't read a Turtle comic since the mid 90's, is access to the technology needed for a suit something realistic to put together with limited resources there? Without his suit he wouldn't even be a nuisance to those hard shelled blokes.
    • Keep in mind the Mirage shredder is far weaker than the 03 Utrom Shredder and even he was tougher than any of the Mirage turtles 1v1 and they had to gang up on him to beat him. The turtles weren't trying to fight the Mirage versions and Leo only deflected his blows. Considering the opposition the 03 Turtles had to fight vs the Mirage versions, and including the mystic season, the 2003 versions are the strongest and have the best track record. This troper just chalked that fight up to letting the Mirage turtles look cool since it was their only showing towards the end and they're the original turtles.
• Why were the Mirage-Turtles so eager to murder their counterparts in cold blood without giving them a chance to explain the situation? This happens again in the 2012 series episode, Trans-Dimensional Turtles.
  • Going off speculation in some of the earlier entries, it likely has to do with how the Mirage Turtles were less heroic and more bloodthirsty than most incarnations. This is also the first issue moment of those Turtles that is being presented, where they were less distinct and mostly spent the issue killing. While it could be chalked up to Flanderization, it’s likely the gritty Turtles viewed two sets of Ninja Turtles as a trick from the invading Technodrome to kill them and reacted as such. The other Ninja Turtles are pretty different in many ways, so it’s only natural the more ruthless Mirage Turtles react with such hostility to what seems like a bunch of pale imitations.
• So...The Turtles and The Multiverse, eh? What about Dimension X? The Battle Nexus? Are there Ninja Turtles there, too?
  • No, but Mikey is Battle Nexus CHAMPION!
    • Dimension X isn't a completely separate universe, "just" another dimension that's attached to the "main" 1987 universe. Like how Marvel's Dark Dimension is not a separate alternate universe, but more of a parasite universe.
  • Try watching this movie right after Back to the Sewers' last episode. With the Technodrome's rampage on modern New York, you had to wonder...where is the Justice Force?
  • Why is Bebop's human form shown walking the streets of the 87 TMNT universe?
    • Perhaps as a Shout-Out to the animation errors in the earlier seasons of the cartoon series?
    • Where the heck is Serling? And Dr. Chapman?
    • Probably back in 2105. Wedding Bells and Bytes shows that Cody fixed the time window again, so he probably used it to bring Serling back into the future after the wedding. Also, it's Chaplin. No idea about him though.
    • Chaplin was never seen during Back to the Sewer and was seen walking away from the Foot Clan with Karai at the end of the 2003 series' fourth season (before Fast Forward and a year before the events of Back to the Sewer.) It seems like he just left the Foot Clan and never looked back.
    • Chaplin appears in the final episode, "Wedding Bells and Bytes". He's Karai's date to Casey and April's wedding.

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