Headscratchers / Thor: Ragnarok

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Valkyrie's name?

• Was Valkyrie's actual name ever mentioned in the film? She obviously based on Brunnhilde from the comics, but is she ever referred to by name? Is it mentioned anywhere in other material?
  • No, her name is never said in the film. Maybe in the credits it shows up.
  • The credits just list her as "Valkyrie".
  • The most likely candidates for her actual name are Brunnhilde or Caiera, given the characters she's a composite of.
  • She can be a valkyrie called Valkyrie. I mean a blacksmith called Smith or wood-worker called Carpenter make total sense, why not Valkyrie the Valkyrie?
  • Like the "MJ/Not-MJ" kerfuffle from Homecoming, it seems like Marvel is hedging their bets in regards to Race Lifting and identity politics. So she's like a character from the source material but isn't actually one, so everybody can put their pitchforks down.

The original Valkyrie?

• Is the Valkyrie in the film the original Brunnhilde with a Race Lift? Or is she a Legacy Character who is simply a valkyrie? The last Valkyrie we see Hela kill is a near copy of the one from the comics.
  • Look upward slightly.

What did Loki do to Odin?

• Was kinda vague than I was hoping for. What likely happened off-screen from the end of Thor 2? Seems like it was too easy for Loki to get rid of the king of Asgard.
  • They pretty much straight-up state that Loki confounded Odin to forget his godhood and placed him in a retirement home in New York; you have to remember that as per Thor, Odin is increasingly old and vulnerable - he enters the Odinsleep largely due to an aggravated argument with his son - so caught off guard, Odin was probably easy pickings for his son's machinations. When Odin regained knowledge of who he was, he went to Norway to be alone and asked Doctor Strange to help maintain his privacy, knowing his time was coming to an end.

How did Hulk get to Sakaar?

• This felt vaguely explained. Was the flight log video supposed to explain everything? I didn't get what was going on. Did a random wormhole open on Earth that just happened to be exactly where Hulk's quinjet was?
  • The video was Nat trying to compel him to come back, not telling him where to go; I imagine Bruce/Hulk got to Sakaar simply drifting in space; Loki and Thor get there simply by being ejected from the Bifrost, after all.
  • Not Black Widow's video that Thor triggered. Banner checked the flight logs to see what happened. It looked like Hulk was trying to resist or get away from something from within the ship?
  • Word of God is that the universe is littered with jump points and wormholes (as seen in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2) and that Hulk's quinjet had happened on one that dumped him on Sakaar.
  • It's implied by all the junk that ends up on Sakaar that Sakaar is the point of least resistance for people drifting through space. Someone with no defined direction will sooner or later end up there.

Did Lorelei and Sif die during the Ragnarok?

• We don't see both of them in the movie, its felt unclear if they were present in Asgard when Surtur destroyed it.
  • Don't know about Lorelei. But Sif's actress was busy filming something else. Kevin Feige says that perhaps "Odin" banished her away from Asgard.
  • Word of God states that Odin banished Sif so she wouldn't figure things out and so she was off-world.
  • The following Thor movie shows that Sif did indeed survive.

The Grandmaster's cousin

• He's only in the film for a few minutes with his encounter with his cousin, but was he the broker (the alien Quill tried to deal the stone to in the first GOTF film? His actor's not credited to be in Ragnarok, but the character looks familiar.
  • No, he wasn't. He also probably wasn't literally the Grandmaster's cousin: "Cousin" or "cuz" is a generic term of address in New Zealand, like 'bro' or 'buddy', and that alien had an NZ accent.

Asgardians and the Valkyries

• What do the Asgardians think happened to the Valkyries if no one knew about Hela? It's not even that much of a Plot Hole, I just would like to have Thor say something like "I was told that all Valkyries died fighting Fafnir" or "Father said that Valkyries were sent to a really nice farm" or something to that effect.
  • Loki tells Valkyrie that he thought that all the valkyries died a gruesome death before he does the Touch Telepathy to her and finding out what actually happened. So either that was the official version every Asgardian knew ("They all died in some brutal battle") or only Loki found out about it, which I think is unlikely, because in this case he had to already know what exactly happened and that Hela was involved.
  • Perhaps the Asgardians know about them, but after so much time legend faded to myth, and they think that they were just a myth. The surprise of Thor and Loki about finding a Valkyrie would be because they discover that they were real.
  • That doesn't work. Thor says that when he was young he wanted to grow up to be a Valkyrie, and he was only put off when he discovered that all Valkyries are female. He doesn't say anything about thinking of them as fictional.
  • Like kids need dream characters to be alive and real. Don't you know kids who'd like to become wizard or pony princess?
  • A dream character with a mark that the Prince of Asgard was able to recognize at first sight? And even if you argue that the myth included a thorough description of the mark they wielded, Thor recognizes her as one of the Valkyries when Korg mentions she's an Asgardian instead of thinking, "Wow her mark really looks like those of the fictional Valkyries I used to dream with".
    • Thor doesn't recognize her as a Valkyrie until he sees the mark on her wrist. And there are plenty of symbols you can recognize at first sight that belong to legendary or fictional characters, so why would it be so strange for Thor to do the same? The legend doesn't have to have a "thorough description." There are murals and such all over Asgard. Remember the book Odin shows Thor and Jane in Thor: The Dark World? Lots of pictures in there. I would be very surprised if there wasn't pictures and murals of the valkyries somewhere in Asgard. Alternately, Thor's mother — again, mentioned as the one who told stories to Loki and Thor — could cast illusions just like Loki. She could've easily shown them. Perhaps Sif's campaign to become a warrior included her researching the valkyries (Thor does say he supported her).
      
      Bottom line, there's dozens of entirely plausible and reasonable reasons that Thor would recognize the mark.
  • Maybe the Valkyries are still being celebrated and remembered as heroes, to the point that young Thor was unable to realise they did not exist any more. To take an example from the MCU, this would be like a child living in the 70's and dreaming to join the Army to fight alongside Captain America.
  • As far as Odin knew, all the Valkyries were killed in that final battle with Hela (with only the one surviving), it most likely added to his guilt over the whole mess with Hela caused him to not want to speak too much about them other than they were great heroes who gloriously died in battle defending Asgard. So Thor and Loki knew about them, heard about them...but details were vague about them.
  • I'm guessing the "official" version is that the Valkyries died fighting Asgard's recurring foe, the Frost Giants. Odin's solution to every problem was covering it up.

Sif and the Valkyries

• Why did Sif had to prove that woman can be a warrior?
  • Because the last time women were warriors in Asgardian society there were completely wiped out. Asgardians then began to doubt female warriors were a good idea and by the time Sif came around she had to reprove that woman were capable.
  • Well, they were wiped out by another woman who was Asgard's greatest warrior, but I suppose that just loops back to first question about what's official version of the story.
  • Perhaps there is a difference between being trained to fight like most Asgardians can and as we saw on the battle on the Bifrost as well as Frigga in the second film, and being a WARRIOR as in a front line soldier. The front line soldiers we see for the most part are all male. Sif was already trained to be the former but she wanted to be the latter which wasn't considered the norm at the time either due to the flashbacks to Hela...or she was of a high ranking birth/family hence why she is called LADY Sif.

Progressive and Valkyries

• Why did Thor treat all-female elite warrior group as something progressive when it was established a long time before his birth?
  • Same as above, after the Valkyries were all killed being a warrior was a male only job. Thor would view a female warrior as a rare exception instead of a common occurrence. Looking back and realizing female warriors used to be common enough that they had their own elite unit within the Asgardian Army would seem incredibly progressive.

Hela's origin

• Or more specifically: Hela's mother. I know that there's no way to know for sure, but what is more likely: Is Frigga also Hela's mother or did Frigga become Odin's wife after he decided to become a benevolent ruler?
  • It was probably Frigga. She's shown herself to be just as stern and iron-willed as Odin. It's not out of the question she decided it would be for the best if nobody ever remembered her daughter.
  • The movie treats Asgardians closer to their interpretation of gods versus Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. So Hela might be just Odin's creation like mythological Athena was to Zeus.
  • In Infinity War, Thor refers to Hela as his half-sister.

How fast do Asgardians age?

• Thor says that the story with Loki turning into a snake happened when they were eight. Did Thor convert it for Bruce to understand or do Asgardians age like humans until they're adult? Or do Asgardians have an entirely different calendar (Like an Asgardian year is sixty human years long, as an example)?
  • The most likely explanation is that they age at a fairly human pace until they reach a certain level of biological maturity, and which point they either stop or slow so much they may as well stop. Remember, Thor was telling the story to Valkyrie as well, so if Asgardians can barely crawl at 8 it would have made no sense to her. So in other words, Odin must be really really old.
    • Thor says to Surtur that he heard that Odin had defeated him half a million years ago. Odin was also noticeably younger looking when Thor and Loki were children. Perhaps all the stress from the events of the films accelerated his aging considerably, plus it is not uncommon in real-life for widows/widowers to die not long after losing their spouse.
  • Also consider that Valkyrie is probably much older than Thor and Loki, yet looks roughly the same age as them. So taking her into consideration, their aging probably slows down (so much they may as well stop, as said above). Or her aging issue is because she's been on Sakaar, where it's said that time passes weirdly.
    • She looks the same age as them because Sakaar exists outside of normal spacetime. In one scene, the Grandmaster flippantly says, "On any other world, I'd be, like, millions of years old."

What happened to Surtur after he destroyed Asgard?

• At the end of the movie, Surtur destroys Asgard. At first, he only just destroyed the buildings of Asgard, all in a fiery blaze. Then, Asgard fuckin' explodes, and all of it is gone. Did Surtur just sorta...kill himself alongside with Asgard?
  • I think the film leaves this vague; but it seems likely that he did, yes.
  • He explicitly told Thor at the beginning that he couldn't truly die until he destroyed Asgard after being reborn via the Eternal Flame, so it's pretty likely.
  • Which turns the event into a Tearjerker, as if destroying Asgard is the only way he can die Surtur is then clearly a Death Seeker Driven to Suicide. How torturous Surtur's existence must be if when he could have just as easily conquered Asgard and ruled over the place if the act was done out of hatred he destroys it and kills himself in the process instead.
  • Not really. Surtur seems very pleased with the prospect of destroying Asgard and fulfilling the prophecy, and seems comfortable with the fact that it also entails his death. Surtur's plan wasn't to rule over the ruins of Asgard; he wanted to obliterate Asgard after he had his fun stomping around and trashing the place. It's hard to feel bad for him when he dies exactly the way he wanted to.

How exactly did Loki end up on Sakaar several weeks before Thor?

• Time doesn't seem to flow differently on Sakaar. Hela doesn't seem to have spent several weeks on Asgard at that point. And if the Rainbow Bridge can toss someone back in time, why didn't that happen to Thor?
  • Loki and Thor were knocked out of the Bifrost into normal space separately before falling into wormholes or other space portals leading to Sakaar. A difference in time flow through the different portals could account for this.
  • Presumably Heimdall then knew the Devil's Anus would produce the shortest time lapse upon return to Asgard, which must be why he insisted they take that one. Don't ask me how he knew, though.
  • The Grandmaster literally says that time works different on Sakaar - and it's not that difficult to see that time appears to move faster on Sakaar, not slower, so that idea of "Hela spending weeks of Asgard during Sakaar shenanigans" doesn't really work out. Loki was booted out mere seconds before Thor, but that period was stretched into weeks on Sakaar, so logically, time passes more quickly on Sakaar (explaining why Valkyrie still looks the same age as she did when her fellow warriors were killed).
  • That doesn't make any sense either as that would mean that Hulk would have spent more than the two years he was said to spend in Sakaar; with a time dilation as extreme as that (making seconds literal weeks) he would be dead or Banner would look like an old crust. It also makes Thor's interactions with Heimdall nonsensical as they clearly talk to each other in Asgard time; if time passed faster in Sakaar, wouldn't Thor be talking incredibly faster? There's also the Quinjet; if time dilates so much, that would make the Quinjet so old it would have probably fallen apart.
  • On the other hand, didn't Grandmaster attribute this altered time passage to his reduced aging rate? That would seem to indicate that, for him, "time it takes to become Jeff Goldblum's age" on Sakaar equals billions of years in the rest of the universe. In turn that indicates that quite a lot of time should have passed on Asgard in those few couple of days.
  • It's really not that big a deal - first you're assuming that the Grandmaster is Jeff Goldblum's age, and that billions of years have passed outside - he specifically says millions of years. Considering he just gives up when he tries to remember his actual age, it's implied that he's already really old to the point he's lost count. And even then, considering that enough time had passed on Asgard for Heimdall to evacuate 90% of Asgard and form a resistance against Hela, it's not inconceivable to think that some time had passed on Asgard during Thor's day or so on Sakaar.
  • The film literally goes from Hela being on the Bifrost, killing Fandral and Volstagg and then fighting the entire Asgardian army. Are you seriously telling me that Hela sat on her ass without doing anything about the Bifrost for days/weeks before contacting Skurge, reviving her dead army and Fenris and rounding up the civilians to get them to talk? Seems awfully contrived.
  • I thought Hela was busy executing everyone defying her, leaving only a handful that Heimdall rescued. Then she needed the Bifrost and the undead army for her multiversal conquest.

The Sorcerors

• If Strange was so against Asgardians, why didn't the Ancient One or the other Sorcerors stopped Loki in The Avengers
  • "We don't deal with the physical". It just so happens that anything short of a Person of Mass Destruction is labelled as "the physical" for them. Furthermore, relating to a Headscratcher of my own, The Pride successfully infiltrated the Masters of the Mystical Arts (somehow).
  • That was before Strange. Originally when the Ancient One was still around, they mainly concerned themselves with inter-dimensional threats and left the rest to other heroes. Now that Strange is in charge of the New York Sanctum, and Dormammu's no longer a threat, he's starting to branch out, outright stating to Thor that he's now keeping a watchlist of dangerous, world-threatening individuals.
  • Also, keep in mind that The Ancient One, the most powerful and wise of the sorcerers, is dead, alongside God knows how many other practitioners. It's possible that the Sanctum Sanctorum started to become more proactive after it had sunk in that they are considerably less capable of protecting Earth thanks to the damage the Zealots caused.
  • For all we know, they may have been dealing with an even greater mystical crisis. Thanos may well be aware of the existence of Sorcerers and have sent some other agents to keep them distracted and/or retrieve the Time Stone.
  • Funnily enough, we may have gotten our answer years later. We see the Ancient One fending off aliens in Endgame. Her priority seems to be keeping the Sanctum safe.

Do Hela and Surtur really fit into the overall Asgardian retcon?

• Ghost Rider and Dormammu mean that legitimate demons exist in the MCU. So...are Hela and Surtur Sufficiently Advanced Aliens like all the Asgardians, or are they actual demons?
  • Hela's an Asgardian same as the others, just extremely powerful as Odin's firstborn. Surtur's his own separate alien species of Fire Giant from Muspelheim. The Spirit of Vengeance is just an ethereal being from another dimension, and Dormammu is a pretty much a living Dimension. There's no "retcon" to speak of.
  • Alternatively, Asgardians and others like them such as Surtur are creatures born from alchemy. Since Thor claimed their technology are neither science nor magic, its alchemy. Hence why Hela was able to create such destruction or Surtur able to regenerate.
  • They're just really weird, varied and super-advanced alien races, plain and simple. No fancy-schmancy archaic alchemy about them. Alchemy does not mean "mix of magic and tech."
  • "Weird" aliens able to dispel enchantments placed by Dr. Strange so that the umbrella can become Mjolnir back at any moment Thor wishes to and still keeps the magical properties it originally had? Mjolnir is magical in nature, there's no way around it. The prophecy stuff is also nothing other than magic and fantasy at its best.
    • Strange didn't place any enchantment on Mjolnir, it had the appearance of an umbrella before Strange even met Thor.
  • There is no distinction between "weird aliens" and "magical beings" in the MCU. There's barely one in the regular MU.

Term 'Alchemy' is appropriate

• Given that Thor was able to wield lightning without Mjolnir and Hela's abilities make them more like Asgardians are beings of alchemy. Shouldn't that be more appropriate rather than what Thor spoke in the first film that in other worlds, it's science while in your world, it's magic.
  • Alchemy does not just mean " magitek" it refers to either a) a specific historical branch of mystical research (mostly relating to turning things into gold or becoming immortal) or b) some form of fictional magic that follows whatever rules or aesthetic the creators want. So they 'could' use the term alchemy, but there's no reason that they should or that they have to.
  • As Doctor Strange has expanded, the mystic arts in the MCU is harnessing extra-dimensional energy to affect change in physical reality. Portals, shields, illusions, beams, yes even lightning or weapons from thin air. It's possible the Asgardian people with their longevity have adapted a natural genetic affinity for this (plus many cultural traditions increasing skill sets, as Frigga taught Loki), allowing their "God abilities" to be just very powerful mystic art abilities. In The Dark World Loki called out the fact they called themselves gods when really they were just exceptionally long-lived aliens to primitive cultures.
  • Put it that way, its kind of an Author's Saving Throw. The Asgardians are aliens but with a bit of mystical culture to them. They aren't Gods but the feats they do and punishment they take in make them the closest things to Gods.

You think you can accommodate the entirety of our people?

• Can we get a population estimate on Asgard? Hundreds? Thousands? Seriously, they all fit on a single ship? And if that's to indicate a relatively small population (likely, given the small size of their planet) would it be enough to keep society running on the scale we see on Asgard?
  • It has to be at least in the thousands, and considering their abilities, even amongst their weakest, they should be able to get it up and running again and probably even help our own planet in the process.
  • It should also be pointed out that the minimum to populate a new planet is estimated at ten thousand. With Asgardians having such long life spans and only needing a large city for this long, they can probably make do with a smaller population. Sustainability rates are less of a concern when your king was reaching old age before some worlds had formed cultures.
    • This is incorrect. Technically, 200 individuals in mated pairs is the minimum requirement to ensure genetic diversity.
  • The population of the city of Asgard should still be in the thousands unless those buildings contained apartments the size of mansions with only one person each. Hela must have killed a lot of people during her reign of terror aside from all those soldiers that she slaughtered.
  • There may be more of them out in the other Nine Realms who missed out on Hela's invasion, especially if Skurge had been accepting bribes to let people leave or bringing would-be emigrants along when he went on his little collecting forays.
  • At least one of them has been hanging out on Earth incognito since somewhere in the middle ages, according to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Plus Sif is out there somewhere after being banished.

Why is Asgard small

• For that matter, why is Asgard so small, compared to "Midgard", aka Earth? I honestly don't understand why the "realms" should be so significant if Asgard is just another planet (one that only has a few thousand people on it). The Guardians franchise has already shown us much more than just "nine realms". Do the Asgardians just not care about the other realms?
  • We're getting into another Headscratcher here but for the purposes of the films "Nine" Realms seems to refer specifically to the Realms which are under Odin's control or protection. Hela describes the old crusades as a war of conquest in the past whereby Odin brought all the realms under control, and we know Odin at the very least has artifacts from Jotunheim and Muspelheim that would grant their rulers greater power, so he likely confiscated them as a means of keeping those realms under control. Midgard presumably also counts since Odin did have some control of it in ancient times at the very least and Thor still protects it today.
  • I always figured that the Nine Realms are just the planets that you can get to via Bifrost. Since the Asgardians don't seem to have any other method of interstellar travels (before the events of this film), those nine planets are the ones they're most concerned with.
  • Asgard appears to be more of a big magical space station, clearly sustained by artificial means as something has to be holding in air and replenishing the water that is constantly flowing over the edge of the sea surrounding it.
  • The size of Asgard is less than obvious even in the comics. Essentially Asgard is supposed to be a separate dimension that is connected to Earth by Yggdrasil the World Tree (which is shown to be more metaphorical in the first movie). In this dimension there is a continent roughly the size of North America floating in the sea of stars. On this continent there is the golden city of Asgard right at the edge and connected to the other eight realms by the Bifrost. The thing is, we almost only ever see the city. Even in the comics they sometimes pan back and show just the city floating in space, but they've never said that the rest of the huge continent isn't there. Even when Asgard is brought to Earth to float as a little city in Oklahoma, it's eventually shown that the rest of the huge continent is still floating where it always was. This is usually just a case of artist error, or just not being aware that the city is just a small part of Asgard. They tend to explain it away as saying that the fabled walls of Asgard (which the city typically isn't shown to have) are actually a dimensional barrier that separates the city from the rest of the continent, even if they're both still part of Asgard as a whole.
    • This◊ concept art from Ragnarok actually shows MCU Asgard really being just the main city with a couple of square kilometers of mountains.

Did this film retcon the previous films?

• The previous films especially Thor: The Dark World went out of their way to remove almost anything supernatural/magical about the Asgardians. They were supposed to be only a sort of advanced alien race mistaken as gods. Magic was almost a dirty word. The same with the rest of the nine worlds. Then you have Thor: Ragnarok. Thor and Hela both insist on their godly titles to a point it comes across as something official instead of an nickname. Members of the royal family are far more powerful than other Asgardians for unknown reasons. Heimdall's powers transcend even psychic abilities. The mural in the throne room portrayed the royal family with halos. Ragnarok is some predestined in typically not found in sci-fi stories. Surtur came back from the dead thanks to being put in a magic fire which is typically found more in fantasy than science-fiction stories. For all the claims about the nine realms having advanced technology we saw very little of that outside of the Bifrost. Neither Vaneheim, Muspelheim, or Jotunheim had anything like what is considered advanced tech in a sci-fi setting instead they are more fantasy. Thor also claimed Odin killed Surtur half a million years ago, which granted could be hyperbole, but unless it is a big one that means Odin is far older than five thousand years. Doctor Strange confirmed objects can be imbued with magical powers which is what seems Asgardians for the most part do. So, does the film make the Asgardians far more magical than the previous ones with only using more conventional scientific technology to fill in the blanks? Are the members in the royal family in a sense gods? Were certain aspects from the previous films retconned or at least downplayed? IIRC, Waititi stated he was treating this film as it it was the first Thor film and kind of ignoring the previous ones. So, did it change somethings to make the story closer to the comics where the Asgardians are supposed to be gods?
  • Well... I'd contest the idea that they've been downplaying the magical elements. For example...
    • As you say, their "technology" utilizes forces that have nothing to do with anything we understand about science. The very concept of a hammer that not only controls the weather but inexplicably makes itself light enough to carry for only the suitably heroic, when it appears to just be a hunk of forged metal without any kind of AI to make such determinations (let alone a propulsion system to explain how it hovers and redirects), doesn't square up with any science we know.
    • Also, the Asgardians forge things with "the heart of a dying star" and live on a Baby Planet wrapped in a nebula, casually tossing aside some basic principles of astrophysics. Either they can interact with reality on a level totally unlike humanity's or their realm outright operates under different physical laws, which sounds pretty supernatural.
    • Also, I recall Sif referring to Loki's abilities as "sorcery" in the first movie, and Thor seems to indicate that his people don't recognize any fundamental difference between "magic" or "science", implying he at least has some idea of what the former is and that it's common on Asgard.
    • As for calling themselves "gods"... what else would you call a being that uses magic, controls the weather on a whim, possesses faculties far beyond what any human (hell, any realistic humanoid being constrained by typical biology or physics) could naturally develop (Heimdall's sight, Thor's strength), and has been an object of worship for at least one religious group historically?
  • They're still super-duper advanced sci-fi aliens, nothing's changed about that from Dark World to Ragnarok - they're just way more super-duper advanced and mysterious than what you'd expect from your conventional sci-fi aliens, to the point where it just honest-to-god looks like "magic". Even then, "magic" means something completely different all-in-all in the MCU world, as Doctor Strange shows us.
  • Then I would like to argue why the enchantment that Strange placed on Mjolnir overall did nothing. Is the Asgardian "sci-fi" mojo strongest than the Dr Strange mojo? The prophecy is also magical stuff; you can't explain a prophecy without delving on the mystical. Thor: Ragnarok explicitely introduces many magical elements, it's hard to deny how they wanted Asgard to appear divine and mystical in nature.
  • What enchantment Strange put on Mjolnir? The hammer looks like an umbrella when they're in New York and before Thor knows Dr. Strange even exists. Strange didn't do anything to the hammer.
  • "Your ancestors called it magic, you call it science. But I come from a place where they're one and the same thing." We know that real magic exists in the MCU thanks to Dr. Strange, so Thor's comment here takes on a whole new meaning. That the Asgardians use both what we consider "science" and "magic" in equal measure to achieve feats that cannot be accomplished by one alone. For instance, Thor naturally (as revealed in this film) has the power to command the weather, at least in the form of thunderstorms. Concerned about how powerful Thor could become, and the accidents he might cause without proper control, Odin created (or modified) a device to limit Thor's ability to do so (Mjolnir).
  • Additionally, Loki and Frigga have a conversation in Thor: The Dark World in which he states he knows magic and that Frigga taught him. In the same movie, Malekeith referred to her as a witch. Magic has always been a part of the Thor movies, but many fans misinterpret them.
  • Right, people took "on my world they are one and the same" to mean that magic is just super-advanced technology, where what he was really saying is that spells and enchantments are just as real as science and technology, and Asgardians don't differentiate them. Just because you can explain and recreate the effects with science doesn't mean they didn't just do it by wiggling their fingers and saying a spell.
  • Clarke's Third Law
  • Inhumans might be the answer, perhaps Asgardian royalty have a similar thing, but because of their advanced tech, they don't need Terragenesis to do so, coupled with the fact that Asgardians are stronger physiologically than humans, the powers they gain are much, much stronger, compare Thor's Shock and Awe powers to Lincoln's from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. As for magic, in Doctor Strange, the Ancient One explicitly said that magic is the ability to channel dimensional energy from other dimensions, and compares it to a computer program, Magic in the MCU is simply hacking reality with a complex algorithm, With the movements and sigils being the keyboard.

What happened to the big, green, incredible mouse?

• Banner states quite lucidly that if he ever goes Hulk again he might not be able to turn back - we don't know if this assessment is rooted in scientific certainty, but it seems reasonable to take it at face value. As fate would have it, he's forced by circumstances to Hulk out during the climax and we never see him turn back. So... is he now officially stuck as Hulk? And how is it his friend and comrade Thor hasn't noticed and done a whole "mournfully promise to do everything to help get you back" dealie?
  • Considering how he spends all of Infinity War as Banner and then Smart Hulk in Endgame, I don't think it's really that big a problem.
  • Also, these fears appear to be completely unfounded. He's dehulked rather quickly after two years just from seeing an image of Black Widow. Somehow neither of them get around to discussing this, despite Banner certainly wondering how he snapped out of it this time and Thor having no reason to think it won't work fine next time around.
  • It seems more like paranoia on Banner's part, which is understandable since he just found out he had been transformed for two entire years.
  • Banner's theory that he'd be stuck as Hulk for good seemed to be based entirely on how different those two years as Hulk felt compared to the other times he transformed. He referred to it usually being like he and Hulk each had one hand on the wheel (explaining how he usually had a better memory of things he did as Hulk than he did this time), but that this time it was like he had been locked in the trunk while the Hulk drove. Perhaps the real change that has occurred is that Hulk has to choose to let Banner transform back.

Capturing the Hulk is evidently really easy

• How exactly does Hulk go from crash landing on Sakaar to being a gladiator? A being who by his very nature reacts to stress with destructive rage, on a crowded, noisy, polluted, unfamiliar, sensory-overload of a planet? You'd assume his first reaction with the cannibals or the scrappers would have resulted in some pretty widespread devastation.
  • I'm guessing whatever scrapper saw him first took one look at the gigantic, snarling monster and decided "you know... maybe instead of the shock-collar I'll just try and smooth talk him into being a gladiator."
  • Something people also forget is that Hulk wants to stay on Sakaar - the only place in the Universe where everyone unironically adores him and actively cheers on his destructive capabilities, holding parades in his honour, he even got his own house built just for him. He probably jumped at the chance to be able to do nothing but smash people for a living and be loved for it. Since he's also particularly fond of Valkyrie, the one who captured him, there probably wasn't that much trouble bringing him in.
  • OP here; my point is that in order to be adored, he first has to become a gladiator. To be a gladiator he first has to go through Sakaar (if his journey was anything like Thor's, this would probably only aggravate him) and then be persuaded (he definitely couldn't have been forced). But it being Valkyrie who found him does seem to mitigate those.
  • Hulk probable reaction to being attacked by the scrappers/cannibals was to kill/maim a bunch of him, and once the scrapper that was sent to recover him got there, he would have known better than to attack this raging beast head-on. Those electroshock devices also seem to be quite strong, so it would have been only a matter of getting Hulk restrained enough for him to meet the Grandmaster and for him to sweet talk his way to him. Remember that the first thing the Grandmaster AI does is to tell those arriving that Sakaar is a place where the unwanted and undesirables of the universe can be a part of something, can be loved and liked and a place to call home. Those words probably resonated with Hulk enough to make him receptive to whatever the Grandmaster told him.
  • In the Planet Hulk comic that this film is loosely based on, Hulk is captured within minutes of his ship crashing on Sakaar. He gets shot with an obedience chip similar to the one Thor was implanted with in this film, and thus is immediately suppressed. (It's also worth noting that at the time he was a little weaker than usual as a side-effect of traveling through a cosmic wormhole.)
  • Thor and Hulk are around the same strength level. If something can completely knock out Thor, chances are it can do the same to the Hulk.

The Celestial Incident

• Asgard looks relatively fine before Hela appeared, I wonder did Ego ever set foot on Asgard?
  • Probably not, for obvious reasons. The bigger question is has Ego even heard of Asgard?
  • Asgardians seem to be pretty well-known in the galaxy at large. Doesn't seem that implausible for Ego to have heard of Asgard. As for not including it in his plans... does he have any way to access Asgard? The only means of travel we've seen that can get you there is Bifrost (even Loki's super-special secret method is basically due to him making his own Bifrost).
  • Bifrost is not the only way to get to Asgard. In this movie, people fly to Asgard in spaceships. I think it's just part of the universe like any other planet.
  • Presuming Ego knew the Asgardians existed, he would have probably decided it wasn't wise to tangle with a group who could transport an army anywhere in an instant.
  • Even if Ego did plant a seed on Asgard, by the time this movie occurs any mess made by the seed would have been cleaned up (keep in mind the "Celestial Incident" happened only a few months after the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie).
  • In addition to the "transport an army" comment above, the Asgardians can turn their insta-anywhere-transporter into a planetbuster weapon easily enough.

The Eternal Flame

• I'm kinda confused, is the Eternal Flame the Soul Stone or part of it?
  • None of those things. From what we know, it's its own separate thing from the Infinity Stones, created by Surtur for the sole purpose of empowering him and causing Ragnarok, that just also has the side effect of reanimating the dead (sorta like "re-igniting" their life with its whole eternal-ness). No Infinity Stones aside from the Tesseract are shown.
  • Presumably like the Casket of Ancient Winters it's just a symbol of Surtur's power that Odin seized by right of conquest. Like the Casket, it has unique and dangerous properties but is unrelated to the Infinity Stones.
  • Remember, at the end of Dark World Volstagg gives the Collector the Aether specifically because "it's not wise to have two Infinity Stones in the same place." The Tesseract, the Space Stone, is already on Asgard, so its vault is at capacity for Infinity Stones. The Eternal Flame is something else entirely.
    • Which brings up an unresolved question from Guardians of the Galaxy, what happened to the Aether after the explosion devastated the Collectors collection?
    • Word of God stated that wasn't the Collector's ONLY stash of artifacts it's likely that the REALLY good stuff like an Infinity Stone is kept is separate more secure/exclusive location.

Why didn't Hela use the Tesseract?

• One of the important elements in the plot is that Hela cannot get off Asgard with her armies without the Bifrost bridge for transport. Even if she used ships it would still be inferior and possibly more costly to transport her armies that way. The big question is, since the Space Stone was in the treasure vault and she casually walked by it and even remarked on it, WHY IN THE HOLY HELL DIDN'T SHE USE IT AS A MEANS OF TRANSPORT! It's an infinity stone! Not just an infinity stone but THE SPACE STONE. The space stone is basically the Bifrost on steroids. When used properly, it can transport anyone or anything anywhere in the universe and create portals to anywhere. Now one argument might be that she didn't what it was but no, she clearly knew what it was based on her remarks saying it was "Not Bad" and calling the infinity gauntlet reproduction fake after casually knocking it off a pedestal. Second argument which is summarily shot down would be that she isn't strong enough to use it but since she is virtually indestructible and can shatter Mjölnir like glass, she's clearly strong enough to use it. That's a big fat plot hole right there.
  • The Space Stone doesn't work like that. As we see in every film featuring an Infinity Stone, they cannot be wielded directly. Even godlike beings are unable to fully control them, or their power is unstable. Hela would need a device to harness the Tesseract's power to form a bridge – essentially, she would need to create what Loki did in The Avengers (2012). And that takes a lot of time, and possibly resources she doesn't have.
  • Didn't Loki manipulate the Tesseract in the first Avenger's movie from the other side of the gate? No physical contact or devise. Also, a group of people (the Guardians of The Galaxy) were able to hold the stone and get it to turn off while Ronan just put it into his big hammer. Peter hadn't gotten access to his reality manipulating celestial powers yet and Ronan's hammer was just...a hammer. with Asgard and the Eternal flame, powering her up she could have handled it on her own and even if she couldn't, it would have taken no time at all to make something to allow her to safely handle it. I also have to say that the issue of time doesn't make sense because no one could get off of Asgard and Hela had no idea Thor or Loki were coming so from her perspective, she had all the time in the world to make use of the tesseract. It even makes more sense if she uses it to get the Asgardians hiding from her because she's the kind of sadistic bitch who would show up and be like, "Yo. There you all are. I didn't really need to come for you and the sword since I have the tesseract so I'm just gonna be murdering you all for shits and giggles".
    • Actually Loki didn't manipulate the Tesseract. A team of scientists he influenced with the Mind Stone did. Scientists given other worldly knowledge most likely given by Thanos to enable his attack. That’s not to say given time a bunch of Asgardian scientist's would not be able to do the same given the chance. The problem is that Hela is not known for her patience, as well as most likely any or all Asgardian scientist who could do the job were slaughtered by Hela in her invasion, or went into hiding.
  • Maybe she didn't understand its power? She seemed impressed with it but that could mean anything.
  • It is very possible that while Hela recognized that the Tesseract is an Infinity Stone but has no idea which one it is. It could be the Power Stone or the Mind Stone for all she knows. The time spent figuring that out is time away from tracking down the Bifrost Sword. Considering how quickly she found Heimdall before Thor distracted her, it would be a waste of time to toy around with the Tesseract when she has a sure-fire way of getting places just within her grasp.
  • It's likely that going after the sword was just as much about punishing defiance as it was securing transportation. There's no way Hela would let the thief/thieves get away with it, so she might as well kill two birds with one stone by reclaiming the sword once she tracked them down.
  • Plus, while she may not know who Thanos is, she does know that there are powerful people out there looking for the stones, so using the Tesseract would just make her a beacon for danger.
  • Most importantly, Hela's objective is to claim her birthright, and all the power and artifacts that she feels she's entitled to as Odin's firstborn. Bifrost is her legacy - a tool and a military asset she'd seen her father use countless times, and is intimately familiar with - so she wants it, same as she wants Odin's throne and Odin's hall and Odin's kingdom. Whatever the Tesseract is, it's not one of the family artifacts she came back to seize, so puzzling out what it's good for is not a priority for her.

How much does Hulk remember?

• When I first saw the trailer where Thor recognizes Hulk in the arena and then Hulk tries to kill him regardless, I figured that Hulk had amnesia or something and didn't recognize Thor as his friend. But then I saw the movie, and after Thor loses in the arena he wakes up in Hulk's apartment and they talk. Hulk specifically mentions Earth; apparently he remembers where he came from. He seems to recognize Thor, too. But he doesn't want to go back to Earth. Why not? He's fought to protect Earth on multiple occasions, regardless of what anyone thinks of him. Now suddenly he's giving up on the whole human race?
  • Hulk wanting to be "left alone" has kind of been his shtick for over 50 years. It shouldn't come as any surprise that the moment he finds himself far, far away from the likes of Thaddeus Ross et al., he settles in. Especially given he has no clue how to even start heading back.
  • Hulk makes his primary reason for wanting to stay away from Earth pretty clear, i.e. he outright says the people of Earth hate him. Recall that after his mind-manipulated rampage through that city in Age of Ultron there was a real possibility of Banner getting locked up. Further, he believes the Avengers care more about Banner than they do him.
  • Also, convincing Hulk to protect Earth was probably a lot easier when it was the only world Hulk had to choose from. He's found another one now, and one where he fits in much better; can he really be blamed for wanting to stay where he's appreciated even at his most "Hulk Smash!"-y?

Odin's privacy

• Dr. Strange has been in contact with Odin, but Odin told Strange not to inform Thor about his whereabouts. Why? Once he broke free of Loki's spell, Odin must have realized that Loki had usurped the throne. Doesn't he care about this? Doesn't he want to get back to Asgard, to defend it from whatever schemes Loki might cook up? Doesn't he want his old job back, if nothing else? And he's dying, too, which means that Hela is going to come back. Wouldn't it be smart to tell Thor about Hela, so he and Asgard would have some time to prepare their defenses? And consider how Hela travels to Asgard; she only manages to get there because Loki stupidly calls for a Bifrost teleport while Hela is standing nearby. With a but of forewarning, that whole situation could've been avoided! It makes no sense for Odin to seek privacy. He's endangering everyone!
  • It's not clear how long Odin was free of Loki's spell, but he indicates it did take him quite a while to get back to his right mind. It may be that by the time he realized everything that was happening there wasn't enough time to do much other than prepare those visions to assist Thor (he tells Thor to think about their final meeting place). And with prophecies involved Odin may well have thought that less interference on his part was preferable, the movie certainly treats a number of the events as unavoidable prophecies. Odin also knew at the very least that Loki wasn't going to hatch any schemes while he had everything he wanted.
  • Odin knew he was on borrowed time and that his death would unseal Hela's prison. He knew that the absolute worst thing he could do was die on Asgard, so he went somewhere far away from anyone.
  • He definitely should have at least warned the Avengers about Hela's coming, since when he died, he knew he would be leaving her loose to roam about Earth. Though it seems he waited for his sons to find him before he died. But short answer is yes, he endangered a lot of people by not communicating with them until it was too late.

Hela's prison

• Everyone keeps mentioning that Hela was imprisoned someplace. Where? What sort of prison was it? This really bugged me during the Valkyrie flashback, when all the Valkyries are battling to put Hela back in her cage, but there isn't any actual cage for them to put her back into. There is no visible jail cell in that scene. There are no mystic chains that someone needs to clasp around her wrists, or whatever. The idea of this battle is that nearly every Valkyrie died but thankfully they succeeded in thwarting Hela's escape attempt, and yet there doesn't seem to be anything there that she's actually escaping from, and there's no visual indication that the Valkyries achieve anything during the flashback scene.
  • Were the Valkyries trying to return Hela to prison, or was that the initial attempt to capture her? If the latter, there may not have been a cage, yet.
  • It's explicitly mentioned that the Valkyries were trying to put her back in her cage after Odin imprisoned her for the first time. I take her "cage" as a dimensional/magical place for her to wander around, with the Valkyries being sent to restore the magic holds or whatever was preventing her from escaping.
  • It could be that her prison was Helheim, one of the nine realms and the place she rules over in the comics and the original mythology.
  • Perhaps the first time Odin tried to imprison her, he really did put her in a physical location; it was after she defeated the Valkyries that he tried a more... metaphysical kind of banishment.

How does Hela get to Earth?

• Odin dies on Earth. One second later, Hela shows up. How did she get there? She was imprisoned in some far-off corner of the universe, right? And then she just teleports straight to Earth, somehow? I'd say that maybe she can just teleport because she's a goddess and maybe that's one of her powers...but no, that doesn't make sense, because later on it's established that she needs the Bifrost sword in order to go anywhere. So if she can't teleport from Asgard to wherever, then how was she able to travel from her prison to Midgard?.
  • Well, Odin's death is what causes the prison to break down...so maybe she just automatically teleports to the location of Odin's death? For some reason?
  • If that's how the magic works, then Odin should've set it up so that he jumps into a black hole just before his death...
  • Hela doesn't just need the Bifrost to teleport herself, she needs it so she can teleport her entire undead army. Its likely she can teleport herself no problem, which would explain how she shows up after Odin dies (and hopefully, that gives a chance that she could have escaped at the last second before she was killed).
  • At the risk of making Odin appear like an uncaring asshole, he probably imprisoned her on Midgard. Her teleporting power only seems able to work inside the realm she's currently located, needing the Bifrost to go to other realms.
  • It was implied that whatever spell kept her imprisoned would last only until Odin died. Maybe that specific spot in Norway was the place where she was imprisoned? So she just popped out in the same spot after Odin's death? It would explain why Odin would associate that one field in Norway as "place I go for contemplative solitude".
    • Hela being imprisoned on Midgard would also explain why Odin didn't go back to Asgard after he freed himself from Loki's spell. He was getting weak to the point where he couldn't keep her at bay from while on another world.
  • Maybe she was imprisoned in a pocket dimension with Odin being its seal (or he was sort of "carrying it around"). After all, this was the best way for him to be sure nobody set her free by accident (as it happened with the Aether): the only way to reach her (or for her to escape) was through him. Of course, the drawback was that she would exit near his corpse...
  • Another angle is that Odin imprisoned her within himself.

So, how does this 'drawing powers from Asgard' works?

• Odin says that both Thor and Hela draw power from Asgard itself, hence them being so powerful as they are. This I can understand, but what is the definition of Asgard? Odin explains that Asgard is not a place, but the people, so it implies that the 'powers' mentioned earlier are drawing from Asgardians themselves. If so, how does Hela becomes as strong as she does if nobody in Asgard supports her at all? (heck, even Skurge grudgingly follows her out of self-preservation). I can understand Thor, as he's pretty much the most popular man in Asgard so many people supported him, so more power to him, but what about Hela? Does this mean that all those flashy, nigh-invulnerable power of hers come not from the Asgardians, but from her raw power? What happens if she does have the support of the Asgardians? Wouldn't she be like the strongest being in the universe save for Thanos, then? Also, at the end of the film, the Asgard realm is destroyed, but Thor still seems to have his powers because most Asgardians still live, so, yeah, it's pretty confusing.
  • "Asgard is not a place" is meant to be flowery metaphor, it's not meant to be taken literally. Asgard is an established location in the MCU, one that Hela draws power from.
  • It may be that both are right in different ways. Hela draws her power from the physical land. Thor draws it from the people.
  • If they (Thor and Hela) both draw power from the physical Asgard (place), what happens to Thor now that Asgard is no more? Or if the Asgardians themselves are all wiped out, leaving him the Last of His Kind? Would his powers be affected in any way, then?
  • Look, this isn't complicated. Hela and Thor have a finite amount of strength and stamina outside of Asgard like any other Asgardian. They can be worn down if they over exert themselves and need food and rest to replenish it. Hela, by virtue of being Odin's firstborn, can draw energy from the land of Asgard itself. This lets her replenish her strength, stamina and heal wounds almost immediately without having to take time to rest. That is why the only way to defeat Hela was to either destroy the land of Asgard or get a being powerful enough to overwhelm her almost instantly. Thor does not feed off the worship of the Asgardian people. At best, they inspire him to fight, but it isn't the same as what Hela was doing. Without all that Thor and Hela still have an extremely high base strength and stamina level. It only takes longer for them to recover through food, rest, and other medical treatments.

Hulk's time in Sakaar

• A little curious, did Hulk gained a lot of fans primarily through his gladiatorial fights? I wondered if he ever signed autographs.
  • To get an autograph, you bring something to Hulk and he smashes it. That's his autograph.

Gungnir not being used for the Bifrost.

• This has been mentioned in the other pages but I’ll just bring it up here. Why didn’t Hela use Gungnir to activate the Bifrost instead of Heimdall’s sword? It’s been established in the first film that the spear can be used to activate the Bifrost and Hela’s been shown to have Gungnir itself while Thor was on Sakaar.
  • Gungnir is Odin's personal weapon. Maybe only Odin could use it to activate Bifrost. If I recall, the spear itself can also shoots out lightning beams that could instantly vaporize enemies, yet we've only seen that happened when the spear is wielded by Odin and his father Bor, who are both rightful owners of it. When Thor wields it in the final battle with Hela, he can only use it as a normal spear. So, maybe some of the spear's advanced functions are only reserved to those who rightfully owns it, thus Hela couldn't make use of it to open Bifrost.
  • Well, Loki does use it both ways in the first film, but he obtained it "legitimately" via Frigga. However, this movie opens with him usurping the throne, which could've rendered the spear's true powers unusable, and this was never corrected by the time Hela obtained it. She could've figured it was a waste of effort trying to make Gungnir work without Odin, when the gatekeeper's sword was probably "a few head rolls away", so to speak – which would appeal to the Goddess of Death a lot more anyway. Another theory could be that operating the Bifrost with the spear was a recent development that Hela isn't aware of, since a stint of benevolence would force Odin to take alternate measures to preserve peace; and in some cases, a swift response could demand bypassing a gatekeeper's assistance entirely.
  • It is possible that Gungnir's ability to be used as a Key may not be common knowledge outside of the higher ups in Asgardian society. Loki of course with his pursuit of knowledge would know. Possibly Heimdall, but Skurge did not know and it was in front of him. Hela may not be aware of its capabilities. Seeing how bloodthirsty she was it is most likely she never bothered to learn things not related to conquest and war. If she had known she would have used it, she did not so it was not used.
  • Keep in mind Hela had another motive for going after the thief/thieves anyways: she's not the type to let that kind of defiance slide. The hunt was as much about making a statement as it was about recovering the sword.
  • Is it the original Gungnir? Recall that it was "in the ignition" when Loki overcranked the Bifrost into a doomsday planet killer and Thor subsequently destroyed its business end to avert the catastrophe.
    • It wasn't "in the ignition". Loki replaced it with the Casket of Ancient Winters - remember the Bifrost lightning turning to ice? - and fought Thor with it. I can't remember if he dropped it in the Bifrost control room, but it was definitely the Casket "in the ignition" when Thor severed Bifrost from Asgard
    • Odin has it at the end of Thor. He uses it to catch Thor as he's about to fall off the edge of Asgard.
• Correct me if I didn't notice it in an earlier scene, but the first I remember seeing it is when Thor wields it. Maybe it was stored in a secret and secure location and so Hela didn't have access to it then either.

Put her on Scrapper Duty

• How'd Valkyrie wind up as a scrapper instead of fighting in the gladiator ring herself?
  • She didn't want to. After losing her lover during the battle against Hela, she wanted to stay away from the ring for a while.
  • The Grandmaster doesn't really seem to care about what "his possessions" want as he only throws Thor to the Hulk after he seems like a fun contender for Hulk to kill. She probably won against the Grandmaster's current champion and was offered the position, and the sadness/guilt probably made her accept.
  • "Scrapper" is an ambiguous term — meaning both "someone who works with scrap" in the sense of rubbish, and "someone who gets into scraps" in the sense of fights. I would guess the term was chosen deliberately for its double meaning — after all, the gang that ambushed Thor asked him whether he was a fighter, or food. Everyone in Sakaar is a fighter. So Valkyrie probably did her time as a mid-card gladiator long before Hulk arrived, made a reputation, and won her freedom. Being a former gladiator would also explain how she ended up as Hulk's coach.
• The Grandmaster specifically says that "Whoever defeats my champion shall his freedom win" (paraphrase). So at some point Valkyrie defeated her contemporary champion and earned her freedom, but with nowhere else to go just became Grandmaster's scrapper.

Regarding Skurge's iconic scene

• It's badass and all, and is quite faithful to the comic, yes, but couldn't Skurge just provide covering fire from abroad the ship instead of jumping off it?
  • I thought it was rather obvious that Skurge was feeling great guilt from not helping his people when he could and cowering in fear while Thor and company did their best to protect Asgard. He was searching for the death that he felt he had avoided so much and deserved.
  • In relation to the above, he also seemed to want Hela to know he had turned against her, hence why he makes a point of getting her attention.
  • Skurge told Hela his ambition: to prove himself. When he saw the undead climbing on board the freighter, he saw his chance. Combine this with three things:
    • Asgardians seem to really like melee combat (almost all of them have melee weapons).
    • Skurge doesn't know how guns work (he seems surprised when his weapons run out of ammunition).
    • Redemption Equals Death
  • When he jumps down from the ship, he uses Des & Troy to blast the stone spike keeping the ship in place into rubble. If he had tried to shoot at the spike from the ship's platform, the shallow angle would've decreased the penetrating power of his shots.
• The bigger question is why are puny Earth bullets at all effective against Asgardians (even zombie ones), when we know bullets have no effect on them.
  • I don't recall the movies ever showing Asgardians to be immune to bullets. They are tough, to varying degrees, and have an enhanced healing ability (again to varying degrees), but that makes them more bullet resistant rather than immune. Still doesn't explain why the bullets seemed so effective against the zombies admittedly.
    • OP was probably referring to the beginning of Avengers, when the SHIELD agents fire loads of bullets at Loki. Although that still doesn't have to mean that Asgardians are immune to bullets (and let's just assume that Loki is as resistant as any actual Asgardian). 1. They were firing at his armor, so that could have been what protected him, 2. Blink-and-You-Miss-It but he puts up a small force field when they fire at his face, so either that was a instinctive reaction or bullets can do harm when they hit unprotected Asgardian skin. Or Loki just didn't want to take chances, which would be reasonable.
    • Hawkeye shoots Loki in the head in his introductory scene in The Avengers, so yes, he's bulletproof.
    • Loki is not an Asgardian, so he isn't the standard. Also, while this hasn't played out in the movies, Loki's sorcery in comics can be used to boost his physical attributes to the point that Loki literally put his head back on after being beheaded. It's possible that the upper limits of his powers could make him as bulletproof as the Hulk but we are unlikely to find out. As for the other Asgardians sans the royal family, I always thought that while they are stronger and more durable than humans, their tissue is not dense enough to stop an incredibly fast small projectile (like the Hulk's is).
    • He's Loki. Who's to say that the "Loki" that got shot at in that scene wasn't an illusory decoy, while the real Loki was sneaking around invisibly and spearing/zapping his opponents from behind?
  • This is straight from the comics. Hela's zombie minions aren't bulletproof, whether they used to be Asgardians or not. In fact they're actually quite fragile, which is pretty clear in the movie, too. The rank and file Asgardians aren't necessarily bulletproof either, even in the comics. The comics can never quite decide if even Thor is bulletproof, and he usually deflects gunfire with Mjolnir rather than tanking it like Superman.

Natasha's message

• Why did the recording of Natasha's message turn Hulk into Banner, when the same message didn't do the trick the first time Hulk saw it?
  • A mixture of anger and sadness. The first time, he was more angry than sad, because of how he felt at her betrayal. The second time, it was an unexpected sight, and so the sorrow was enough to kick him out of his anger long enough for Banner to re-assert himself.
    • Extremely doubtful Hulk would hold a grudge like that; he even smiled snidely at Nat when he carried her onto the floating island and she went "I hope that made us even." What's more likely is that, in Age of Ultron, Hulk was very deliberately tuning her out because he wanted to remain Hulk, push his feelings down and flee. Two years later, after hundreds of gladiator matches and climbing up to fame in Sakaar, seeing her again awoke his feelings for her all over again, and, caught by surprise he wasn't ready to suppress his feelings.

Skurge's lack of long range communication on his post

• Skurge's job is to monitor the Bifrost to open when needed and keep an eye out for threats. Some device was installed to pick up Asgardians calling from other worlds since he lacks Heimdall's hearing. So why doesn't he have a means to let Asgard know when people arrive using it. Instead, he has to run all the way across the Bifrost and through the city until he reaches the palace wasting time and forcing the new arrival to either wait or letting an enemy attack. Why doesn't he have a phone, radio, or even a horn so he can let the palace know without having to abandon his post?
  • Because watching Bifrost was Heimdall's job. Considering how he can contact Thor all the way to Sakaar from Asgard via soul connection, it's not hard to assume that he's also been doing the same during his job, which is opening up a soul connection with Odin to inform him of new arrivals.
  • Perhaps the alternate/emergency communication device is only meant to pick up transmission from other realms first.
  • Alternately, maybe the other end of the communication device is installed in the throne room, which is not where Loki was at the time of Thor's arrival.
  • Rule of Funny.
  • Nobody ever needed to "install" or create a telecomms device between Bifrost and the palace because Heimdall, with his enhanced senses, was in charge. When he left, it simply didn't cross anyone's mind to put one in.
  • Skurge doesn't seem to be all that great at the job. He may very well have a mechanism for communication that he simply forgot to use.
  • Or maybe Skurge had disabled the communications-link to the city deliberately, because he hadn't wanted Odin to call at the wrong moment and find out he was sneaking his girlfriends into the Bridge-control chamber or bunking off to Texas to steal mopeds and assault rifles.
  • There's an even SIMPLER solution. Skurge is an idiot. (As the "Not all that great" guy theorizes). They needed to establish in this scene that Skurge was WOEFULLY incompetent. Also? It's quite possible that LOKI didn't have the beacon on him. Because he was at a PARTY.

Surtur's crown in the trophy room

• Thor knows that if Surtur's crown touches the Eternal Flame, this will ignite the Ragnarök. So when he brings the crown to Asgard, he has it placed... in Odin's trophy room, right next to the Flame?! Isn't that the absolute last place where the crown should reside? Shouldn't the crown and the flame be kept as far apart from each other as possible, like the Asgardians did with the two Infinity Stones in The Dark World?
  • As soon as he arrived back to Asgard with the crown, his priority was to deal wih Loki and find Odin. While asking a random guard to put it in the vault for now without more details. He was most likely planning to better secure it afterwards.
  • Did Thor know the Eternal Flame was in the vault?
  • Yes, he says so in the opening scene.
  • It's likely the Destroyer is still guarding the Treasury, and would prevent anyone outside the House of Odin from trying anything funny with the items therein.
  • The Destroyer was, well, destroyed, in the first movie and it’s remains were left on Earth to be reverse engineered into a BFG. There is absolute no indication there is another one.
    • They built a new Bifrost. They made a new Gungnir. A new Destroyer isn't implausible.
    • Gungnir was never destroyed. Odin holds it in his hand and uses that hold Thor and Loki after the Bifrost explodes.
  • Even if there's a new Destroyer, there's still no need to take the risk of putting the two objects in the same place. Especially since the first movie showed the Destroyer can be defeated.

Loki and the Grandmaster

• What exactly was their relationship again?
  • The Grandmaster winks at Loki when he's talking about how he's stayed young, Loki accompanies him to gladiator games (sharing a couch and a bowl of grapes no less), and Loki seems pretty familiar with a ship that the Grandmaster apparently used for orgies. It's probably exactly what you think it is.
  • Tom Hiddleston in this interview discloses that the Grandmaster becomes Loki's sugar daddy after the latter arrives on Sakaar.
    Hiddleston: In my head, Jeff Goldblum takes Loki out to Rodeo Drive and says, 'Pick the finest fabric you can find...'

Loki getting curb-stomped by Dr. Strange

• Loki has practiced magic for thousands of years, whereas Dr. Strange has done it for two or three years at most... Yet Strange has Loki completely at his mercy, and Loki can't counter Strange's spell with his own. How could Strange have become so powerful in such a short time? It's not like he's using the Eye of Agamotto to boost his power either.
  • Loki has practiced that "some call it science, some call it magic" quantum physics bullshit. Strange has practiced actual supernatural magic, which is much more powerful than the quantum bullshit.
  • In further detail, the magic Strange was using was utterly different from anything Loki has ever been shown in the movies to have any power over. Loki uses illusions, and a bit of mind-manipulation (pulling that painful memory out of Valkyrie, making Odin forget his true identity), he doesn't shift space or open portals.
    • Bingo. MCU Loki has never shown any proficiency at the kind of magic Strange practices. In fact, both Loki and Thor refer to Strange's skills as sorcery and wizardry, respectively, so they know it exists, and if Loki couldn't break out it means he doesn't know how.
  • Also keep in mind that Loki was caught completely off-guard by Strange. He clearly wasn't expecting to go into any form of magical combat. Maybe if he'd been prepared it would've been a more even fight. But once Strange got a hold of him, there was nothing Loki could do.
  • Another possibility is that Strange used the Eye of Agamotto (i.e. the Infinity Stone of Time) to trap Loki in such a way that he couldn't escape.
  • It's also possible that Strange actually doesn't curb-stomped Loki. Remember that he wears the Eye of Agamotto. It's possible that he replicates the same trick that he did with Dormammu; if he failed, the time will rewind.
    • Its pretty obvious when the eye's power is in use, given it lights up and such. The Dr. Strange movie also emphasized that using the Eye for anything less than saving the world from imminent destruction would be unwise (and even doing it for that reason may have negative consequences). It seems unlikely Strange would have needed the Eye anyway when he's dealing with people who have no specific idea of what he can do until after he does it.
  • Strange helped Odin, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that eventually an Asgardian is going to come looking for Odin. Odin might have told Strange that it was Loki to mind fudged him, again since the spell wore off/was broken it would make sense that somebody would come to re-cast or restore the spell...most likely Loki. Knowing this Strange most likely took steps to prepare for the pretty much guaranteed arrival of Asgardians...and the possible arrival of Loki himself. A spell or something similar was most likely triggered when Thor and Loki showed up notifying Strange, Strange figured out who it was trapped Loki before he could do anything and left the calling card for Thor.
  • Doctor Strange, as a former MD who likely worked on victims of Loki's New York attack, even states that Loki was on his radar. The implication was that if Loki came sniffing around Strange would already have a plan for what to do. It doesn't seem reasonable he'd be keeping tabs on Loki and NOT have a plan to sideline him before he did something crazy.
  • Note, when opening a portal to Norway, Strange was checking if the spell needed modifications for Asgardians. He didn't inquire about needing modifications for Frost Giants. He was prepared to face Loki in advance and probably had all the spells and tools for that ready. Note, that from how we've seen Bifrost operate (i.e. needing a surface to project onto, even if target is in mid-air), the "eternally falling" dimension would prevent Loki even from retreating via rainbow bridge.

How can Hela still wield Mjolnir?

• As we see from the previously-hidden murals, Hela wielded Mjolnir before she was banished and it was given to Thor, so obviously she was once considered 'worthy' of doing so. But, having been exiled for being brutally violent, imperialistic and jingoistic (all the traits that led Thor to be banished and temporarily unworthy of the hammer), how can she still hold and destroy a weapon that Captain America could barely budge?
  • The Reveal that Mjolnir is just a conduit for Thor's innate powers and thus has no power of its own means the Enchantment is non-existent. This DOES make hash of established continuity, but it also explains how can Hela wield it.
    • No, it doesn't mean the enchantment is non-existent. That logic doesn't follow. It just means the hammer is a conduit for Thor's Lightning powers but has nothing to do with the ability to lift it. Hela wielding Mjonir is even simpler to explain. Odin put the enchantment on the Hammer in Thor 1, long after Hela originally held it. Hela then stops it with her bare hands after Odin's death. Odin's death explicitly stopped the magic that was holding Hela, why wouldn't it also lift the enchantment?
  • Alternatively she is simply so powerful that holding Mjolnir for those few seconds was indeed possible (she's clearly much stronger than Captain America). After all she didn't have to actually wield it so much as block it and then crush it to pieces in her hand.
  • Another possibility is that having apparently been the original owner of Mjolnir she is very familiar with how the enchantments on it work (the lightning power may have been channeled from Thor, but the force that keeps it from being lifted and such clearly came from Mjolnir so it does have some power), and could bypass them long enough to destroy it.
  • She didn't wield it, she blocked and crushed it. Also, she never needed to be 'worthy' of the hammer; the spell was only put on it by Odin in the first film, before that it was just a weapon, and little else.
    • Fair enough, perhaps Mjolnir was only enchanted to respond to worthy people at the beginning of Thor. But this has clearly persisted, since everyone else (except Vision) who has tried to lift or stop the hammer has been totally unable to do so. If Captain America can barely budge it, it's doubtful that Hela meets the hammer's definition of worthy. We can only assume that Hela is just that powerful, and that her status of Goddess of Death includes being able to bring 'death' to enchanted hammers.
  • It’s very likely that the worthiness enchantment was broken when Odin died, just like the spell that was keeping Hela sealed away.
  • She could have been unworthy, but seeing that only Ragnarok was able to depower her... she just overpowered the unworthiness effect.
  • There's actually a pretty simple explanation- as Odin's rightful heir, she inherits his ability to undo the enchantment on Mjolnir (Presumably Odin didn't make the rules on primogeniture, and therefore he does not have the option of screwing them).
  • Loki stated that Hela destroyed Mjolnir "like a piece of glass", before emphasising that she is stronger than both him and Thor, especially Thor. The act of Hela destroying Mjolnir is a very clear indication of her raw power and just how outmatched Loki and Thor are compared to her. As for Hela wielding Mjolnir in the mural, as others have stated, Mjolnir only received the worthiness enchantment in 2011, when Odin banished Thor, which was long after Hela's time wielding the hammer, so she didn't need to be worthy when she was Mjolnir's owner because that wasn't a requirement yet.

Was Odin after the Infinity Stones?

• Odin had a replica of the Infinity Gauntlet before Hela destroyed it. Is it possible that long ago, Odin set out to find the stones and change the world?
  • Unlikely, as it seems that Odin knew the Aether was sealed, but not where. He was pretty surprised when Jane showed up with it. One possible explanation is that the right-handed Gauntlet in his Treasury was a decoy. It was no secret, even on Earth, that Odin possessed the Tesseract. Expanding that legend to "Odin has the Infinity Gauntlet in his basement" wouldn't be much of a stretch, and it would draw in wannabe conquerors seeking its power. With the Cube safely secreted away on Earth, these dangerous threats could then be easily and neatly disposed of by the Asgardians and the Destroyer.

Why need Heimdall's sword

• Much case is made of Hela needing Heimdall's sword to open the Bifrost. But why? Odin's spear can open it - its how he opens it in Thor 1 when he banishes Thor. And Odin's spear is RIGHT BY THE THRONE. Thor has it when he returns to Asgard and sits on it waiting for Hela.
  • Most likely Odin's spear (which in the Norse myths is a legendary object, like Mjölnir) merely channels his own power, just like Mjölnir does with Thor. With Odin dead, the spear can't open Bifrost. It seems Heimdall's sword is the only "master key" to Bifrost that anyone can use to open it.
    • Doesn't Loki also use the spear to send the Destroyer to earth? Since he froze Heimdall with the sword. And the Destroyer arrives via Bifrost...
    • It could have been tapping into Odin's power, even if he wasn't directly using it.
  • Hela's also furious at whoever dared to defy her by stealing the sword. Sure, the spear might be just as valid an option for opening Bifrost, but she'll be going after the person or people with the sword anyways, since she's not about to let them escape punishment.
    • And she needs to make certain that nobody else can activate it. It was her father's key tactical asset back in his conquering days; she knows very well how much of an advantage it is to have free and exclusive use of the rainbow bridge.
  • It's been earlier observed that Thor destroys the original of Odin's spear in the first Thor's movie while shattering the Bifrost. It's possible the new spear doesn't have the same properties as the old one and Hela can tell on sight.
    • Gungnir was never destroyed. Odin holds it in his hand and uses that catch Thor and Loki after the Bifrost explodes at the end of Thor 1.
  • Thor might not have destroyed the original, as pointed out above, and even if he did, why would Odin make the replacement inferior to the original?
    • Gungnir wasn't destroyed in Thor 1, as pointed above, so it is the original.

Shape-shift or illusion?

• So this film confirms that Loki can shape-shift (when he turned into a snake) and can turn other people into animals (when he turned Thor into a frog). So, when it comes to his Jotun form, is his Asgardian skin-tone/form just an illusion, or has he shape-shifted into an Asgardian body?
  • It could be both, but I think that him having unconsciously shape-shifted is more probable, since Jotuns are seen to have a very cold skin in Thor, while he clearly hasn't. On the other hand though, it's possible that a Jotun's skin only harms others when he consciously decides to or that Loki doesn't have these Jotun powers because he is basically short statured.
  • Note that in the first Thor movie, Loki does not know he's a Jotun until Odin reveals it to him. That must mean Loki has looked like an Asgardian since his early childhood, long before he had the chance to learn any illusion spells. So either Odin placed an permanent illusion on him when he found Loki as a baby, or Loki unconsciously shape-shifted in order to look like his new parents.
    • Or maybe Frigga placed a permanent illusion on Loki, given that illusion was more of a specialty of hers than of Odin's.

Loki's Change of Heart

• Out of all the times throughout the movies, why did Loki decided to help Thor now? There are some chances he could have changed for the better such as Frigga.
  • There are multiple possible reasons and we don't see what specifically motivates Loki to direct the gladiators to Asgard, but a big one is likely Thor spelling out one of Loki's biggest problems via a painful The Reason You Suck speech that thanks to being electrocuted at the time he could not escape or argue against, namely that the biggest thing keeping him from changing and becoming something better isn't being in Thor's shadow, his insecurities and traumas or any other self-pitying justification Loki has come up with for his crimes. The biggest reason is that Loki just doesn't want to change, and realizing that he was his own biggest obstacle may well have hit a nerve for Loki. That and the God of Mischief probably didn't appreciate realizing that he had indeed become predictable (and oddly enough Thor seemed to have even predicted his change of heart given his "you're late" line later).
  • Evil Versus Oblivion. He can't rule over the Asgardians if Hela kills them. And Hela intends to kill him as well, so it's in his best interests to see Hela defeated.
  • Also, Loki seems to genuinely believe what he's doing is for the good of Asgard, and that he would be more fit to rule the realm than Thor or even Odin. Unlike his counterparts in Norse mythology and in the comics, the MCU Loki never turns against Asgard itself, only against Thor and Odin. So once Thor manages to convince him that Asgard would truly be lost if they let Hela conquer it, it makes sense for him to come to the Asgardians' aid.
  • The way I see it, Loki cares about Asgard and Thor very much, its just he probably doesn't consciously admit it prefers to express it via trolling and antagonization. It is clear how much Thor's elevator speech has upset him, and when he realized he may lose both his brother and his home to Hela he dropped the act and came to save them. Seeing how Thor mowed down Grandmaster's mooks on the way to the elevator and took on the Hulk, it was clear that alarm Loki tried to cause would only be a speedbump to Thor at most.
• All their lives, Thor/Loki had the same act. Loki does something terrible, Thor falls for the trick, bad stuff happens but always in the end, the bad stuff isn't all that bad Thor forgives Loki and welcomes him back to the fold till the next time and the cycle repeats. Always. The elevator scene is the first time that Thor goes off script. When Loki stated he wanted to stay and not go back to Asgard, he expected Thor to give him some heartfelt plea to come with him. But when Thor agrees with Loki and stated that Loki would do well here, that is the first time in maybe a thousand years that things were not going to plan for Loki. It's building off the conversation they had in the cells where Thor explains in great detail how for once...Loki's little trick had real and lasting damage, not just for their family but all of Asgard and beyond. Loki didn't just have a change of heart,, he was finally realizing just how much damage he had done and decided to try and redeem himself by coming to help.
  • Except that's not how it went in the previous movies. Thor and Loki's friends consider Loki possibly engineering Thor's banishment and letting enemies into Asgard to be so much worse than anything Loki's ever done before that they're not even sure he was involved. Thor did consider everything Loki did that bad, as he fought him to stop him. He tried to talk Loki down, but when that failed, he fought Loki. He never welcomed Loki back to the fold with everything forgiven and forgotten; at most he tried to bring Loki back by offering a chance at redemption, and before TDW, Loki always turned it down violently. Thor even told Loki he was writing Loki off as a lost cause in TDW, which he only revealed to not be what he truly believed when he thought Loki was dying.

Avengers Assemble

• Why didn't Thor just go to the Avengers? Even if Tony wasn't able to help, Thor could have asked Steve.
  • When would he have had the chance? His visit to Earth early in the movie was a family matter - looking for Odin - and when he and Loki realized Loki had lost tracked of him, Loki got immediately whisked away by Strange, who pointed them both in the right direction. After Odin dies, Thor's immediately thrown into the fight with Hela, then he gets shot to Sakaar and stuck there, and once he gets away from there he doesn't have time to make a detour to Earth to grab his "friends from work" because every moment he delays means more dead Asgardians and Hela recovering more power. It just wasn't a feasible solution to his problems.
  • And what would Steve do? He's barely as strong as a regular Asgardian and a lot less durable. Without his shield he has no protection, since even Asgardian armor was as paper to Hela. As skilled as he is in hand-to-hand combat, any several-hundred-years-old Einherjar has, well, centuries of experience on him. As for shooting, bullets would hardly phase Hela. Skurge M16s must already use some outworldly ammo to even punch through Asgardian armor and Asgardian bones. Now, Thor at that point doesn't know that Cap lost his shield and that Hela is invincible, but even then he must realize a shield, however indestructible, can do little against something Odin kept locked up with his life. Tony got PTSD last time he fought aliens - and those were small-time mooks, nothing seriously serious - so bringing him to fight something that is a problem for Asgardians is a bad idea. Dude might get scared out of his mind by what is there in the vastness of cosmos and build another army of evil robots. Out of all the Avengers, besides Hulk, only Wanda and Vision are the only ones who might have contributed to the fight.
  • Not to mention the minor detail that Thor is working with Loki this time. Y'know, the guy who's still a wanted war criminal on Earth? Steve would be far more likely to try to arrest Loki than cooperate with him.

Asgardian Magic

• Why haven't Asgardians got any magic of the sort Masters of the Mystic Arts use? Sure, they call their science "magic" and they have those illusions and mind manipulation, but what about actual mystical arts? Them golden portals Sorcerers use would be very handy, especially in the escape from Hela, as would the ability to enter Mirror Dimension. And without sorcerers, what was stopping Dormammu (or any other mystical threat) devouring Asgard? Or they could stab Dormammu with spears hard enough for him to retreat?
  • There may well be sorcerers of some sort among the Asgardian population (or perhaps there were before their population took a massive downturn over the course of the deaths suffered in the movies). They are aware of magic users, and in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 we see that the use of Mystic Arts style magic is not restricted to Earth (an alien is seen doing something similar to mystic arts at the end of the movie). As for why we don't see it used on any large scale, it would seem to just not be a part of Asgard's culture, which prefers physical weapons and such. It's not like just anyone can use mystic arts either. Even with training, you seem to have to have innate skill to get much in the way of results. As for Dormammu, he seemed to be mainly after Earth, not Asgard. Asgard's dimension may also just not be of any great interest to him for one reason or another, or due to some other as yet unknown protection he may not be able to assimilate it.
    • And yet, not a single sorcerer? A hat doesn't preclude occasional individual without said hat. And mystic arts could be adapted for regular combat easily. Now, it could be the role of Sanctum was performed by Asgard itself, seeing as it was a place of power and such, but that offers no Watsonian explanation why no one tried throwing a portal at Hela or trapping her in a Mirror Dimension. Or why Odin had to use "dark energy" instead of having someone open a portal.
  • There's nothing to actually say Asgardians can wield Mystic Arts as displayed on Doctor Strange. It's possible their Bizarre Alien Biology keeps them from properly channeling the mystic powers like The Ancient One and her acolytes do.
  • In Thor: The Dark World, Loki explicitly mentions that Frigga taught him magic, so we know it exists on Asgard and there have been a few hints here and there of magic existing among the Asgardians. The misconception is that it is entirely within the sci-fi genre.
  • Asgard doesn't need its own separate protection against Dormammu; it's a part of the same dimension as Earth, albeit a far-off part, and Earth's sorcerers already protect the entirety of that dimension from Dormammu.
  • It's probably safe to assume that not every species have access to the same magic, just as not every alien has access to the same advanced technology. The Asgardians use magic similar to what you'd find in Norse mythology: illusions, glamours, shape shifting, enchantments, and prophecy, not so much energy control and dimensional manipulation. Assuming Earth magic is superior or more advanced than Asgardian magic rather than just different, that can be explained by the Sorcerer Supreme being a human.

Doylist Reason to Make Hela a Daughter, Not Granddaughter, of Odin?

• This is more of a nitpick than anything else, but I was looking forward to the movie exploring Odin's mistake in the Norse saga: locking up Loki's three children by a Frost Giant mistress because he foresaw they would end Asgard, only for them to cause Ragnorak anyway because they didn't appreciate being imprisoned for all their lives. Hela here is Loki's sister, not his daughter, and no comment on Fenrir. Loki in mythology also had an ambiguous relationship Hela, given it's possible he killed Baldr to give the god to her in death, but also he couldn't seem to afford to care. Aside from wanting Loki to appear celibate and not the philanderer he was in mythology, what other reasons could there be for the changes?
  • Tom Hiddleston is 36 years old. Cate Blanchett is 48 years old. They could theoretically find a way to explain it, but I am personally fine with that they didn't, and I liked the change from the source material.
  • Also, Hela in this film represents the original sin of Asgard: being founded on colonialism and genocide. This would not work if she was Loki's daughter and therefore born well after Asgard's founding.
  • And it'd be hard to explain why Loki and Thor would be completely ignorant of Hela or her powers if she was Loki's daughter. Having her existence and capabilities be a mystery to both brothers makes her a lot scarier of an opponent.
  • Another possibility that I personally entertain is that it's their way of adapting Marvel's take on Angela while using a more identifiable and less legally murky character.

Why doesn't Skurge ride his moped to Asgard?

• So, when Skurge goes to chase after Thor, why does he run rather than ride his moped?
  • It ran out of gas and he doesn't know how to get more? He seems to not fully understand some of the items he's acquired (i.e. he seems surprised when he runs out of bullets).
  • I reckon his initial stumbling was mainly for giggles, and in fact Asgardian can run faster than a moped can ride. Notice that he arrived on the balcony not much later than Thor, who can fly. Judging by the distance, he made pretty good time. Doubt moped can beat that.
  • Does he necessarily even realize the moped is a powered vehicle? If he never saw one being ridden, just swiped one that was parked, he might've assumed it was some sort of scooter you propelled with your feet.
  • Because even in this film, Skurge fantasy plate armor riding a moped through the streets of Asgard would be too silly.

Quinjet duplication?

• It seems pretty apparent, if not explicitly confirmed, that a portal of some sort caught Banner (as the Hulk) in his Quinjet and brought him to Sakaar. However, at the end of Age of Ultron, it's mentioned that the Quinjet that he absconded with was found on a deserted island somewhere with no sign of Banner or the Hulk, and presumably Fury or Stark would have been able to access it to confirm if it was the same one. So, was there a completely different abandoned Quinjet on Earth? Or did that simply get retconned by Broad Strokes in this film?
  • Its a retcon, as Feige said that when doing Ultron they told Joss Whedon to change the ending and not have Hulk go into space, as they had no plans in doing so, but the decision to add Hulk into Ragnarok was made after Ultron came out.
  • IIRC, Fury shows Widow a photo of something that LOOKS like the lost Quinjet. It wasn't 100% confirmed to be same QJ or QJ at all.
    • It would not be remotely out of character, either, for Fury to deliberately mislead Nat into believing the Quinjet had been found, sans Hulk, in order to give her "closure" and motivate her to get her head back into the right space.
  • Watch the scene again, Fury said it crashed in the ocean and that it could be the Quinjet,

How does Loki see and hear when he's an illusion?

• Loki appears before the imprisoned Thor as an illusion. How is he seeing and hearing Thor's responses?
  • He conjures an illusion of Thor in front of himself and has it mimic real Thor's responses just like his own illusion mimics his. Magic, duh.
    • But the Asgardians don't actually have "magic", they have cosmic quantum power, which needs to follow a set of established rules, unlike actual supernatural magic...
    • Beg your pardon. He conjures an illusion of Thor in front of himself and has it mimic real Thor's responses just like his own illusion mimics his. Quantum, duh.
  • Loki can be in two places at once and control both. The illusion is for all intents and purposes Loki being there except for a physical presence. This movie played up the god/mystical angle more to the point that Loki can defy the rules of physics as we know them due to magic. I suppose Loki can create as many illusions and receive sensory input through them as he can mentally control though I imagine past one it gets taxing because he has to be able to control the illusion and himself.

Odin, God of ...

• Despite his "We are not gods" speech in the second movie (which was mostly aimed at kicking Loki down a peg, so probably shouldn't be taken super-literally), Odin acknowledges Thor as God of Thunder, and his firstborn has nigh-godlike powers as well. If not literal gods, they seem like a super-powered version of Inhumans, gifted with very powerful abilities... So what is Odin's own power? Dark Elves wouldn't be a problem for fully powered Thor, and Hela would just mow them down. Why then was Asgard ever at risk in Thor 2? Why hasn't Odin shown any of his powers? And what ARE his powers?
  • Odin is very old and well past his prime by the time we see him in the movies, but in the past he was an extreme force to be reckoned with, with skill to match his vast experience and power. Not to say he wasn't powerful in the present of course. Gungnir is a powerful weapon in its own right, and in Avengers we hear Odin manipulated dark energy in such a way as to be able to send Thor to Earth without the Bifrost or Tesseract. As for other specifics for the MCU version, its hard to say, but its likely at least some of the powers he displays in the comics would apply. His godly title of course is All-Father, and he presumably doesn't have a specific area of expertise.
  • As for why Asgard had any trouble with the dark elves in Thor 2, they were surprise-attacked while a lot of their forces were away stabilizing other realms. Odin himself easily kills any dark elves he encounters, but he can only be in one place at one time, and Thor was delayed by the prison riot. If you're talking about the war Odin's father engaged in from the flashbacks in Thor 2, back then the dark elves had much higher numbers plus their own nigh-invulnerable warriors.
  • Inhumans are mutated humans. Asgardians are cosmic beings, like Ego or Thanos or Dormammu.
  • Fridge Brilliance: Odin was speaking Asgardian in that scene. Maybe "god" is Translation Convention for "superhero", as in "super when compared to other Asgardians". In effect, Asgard's royal family are superpowered mutants, and each is the "god of" whatever force their individual mutations place under their command.
  • In traditional Norse mythology, Odin is primarily the god of war and wisdom. So we see him attempting to impart wisdom to his children and that his warring days are over. He is also god of poetry (perhaps why he's seen as normal for watching the play about Loki) and divination (having given up his eye to see the future), though his loss of eye was changed in the MCU (but not the comics) to him losing it in the final battle with Jotunheim.

Odin's Lack Of Preparation

• Odin has known for millennia that he's the only thing keeping Hela's prison shut. And he's known at least for a few decades that he's getting on in years. So why hadn't he made any effort to have Asgard ready for her inevitable return or transfer control of the seal to someone else? He's essentially been holding a dead-man's switch for universal Armageddon for thousands of years, and has apparently never considered the fact that he's going to have to put the thing down sooner or later, if only due to dying from natural causes. At the very least he should have informed his heirs that they'd be facing a major crisis within an hour of his death... sooner than one minute before he bit it.
  • Odin has a bad habit of this in the comics as well and it has never received a good explanation. My best guess would be Odin may have been planning to deal with it or inform Thor after he retired in the first film. He likely still had a few decades at least left. Unfortunately, things spiraled out of control and he never had time to focus on it. He likely planned on being king of a bit longer till Thor got done solving the current problems. By the beginning of Thor 3 everything Odin built has fallen apart and he has lost the will to live.
  • Because Odin looked at the big picture. Meaning, his mind was most likely on Thanos, which is the bigger threat than Hela. In any case, Hela winning means no Tesseract for Thanos, so Thanos would have arranged Hela's death anyway. On the other hand, no one so far is prepared for Thanos. As to why Odin didn't think of warning anyone against Thanos...chalk it up to Plot Induced Stupidity.
    • Judging by how he's spoken of in Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos seems to be a pretty well-known being in the universe. At the same time he's not someone you warn people about, he's just someone you know is out there and hope stays far away. At most his seeking the Infinity Stones may not be widely known, and for the same reason we have no reason to think Odin knew (and thus he had no more reason to inform Earth about Thanos than he did to tell them about frost giants or dark elves).
  • Back in Thor 1, Odin planned to transfer the kingship to Thor while still living (something not uncommon in ancient monarchies). It is quite possible that doing this would have disrupted Hela's rightful claim as firstborn and might have nullified her ability to draw power from Asgard. With Thor safely on the throne, dealing with the day to day rule, Odin then could have focused much more attention on a plan to deal with the weakened Hela after his death, and confided the secret to Thor. But Thor is not ready for the throne (by the light of Ragnarok, it's clear to see Odin fears he will become a second Hela), and then becomes focused on returning to earth and Jane. Odin probably thinks he has time to let Thor roam around before settling down to kingship, but he doesn't anticipate Frigga's death (which, as happens often in real life, triggers his own rapid decline) and Loki's interference robbing him of his last chance to set things up.

How old is Odin?

• In Thor: The Dark World, Odin's father Bor was alive and kicking (and hadn't even gone grey) five thousand years ago, when the Dark Elves attempted to use the convergence to change reality. But when Thor was addressing Surtur, he said that Odin killed Surtur "half a million years ago". I know Taika said he didn't pay much attention to the first two films, but how could he have missed something like that?
  • It can be explained easily enough by Thor not being literal when he says that, i.e. its hyperbole, since Dark World also had Loki state that Asgardians/Frost Giants live for around five thousands years.

Nine Realms

• So Odin and Hela conquered the Nine Realms themselves, right? And those "Realms" are planets. It explains why various other planets in the galaxy/universe aren't considered part of these "Realms". So, my question is: Taking this new plot point into consideration, how the hell does that explain the Convergence? Why does the universe align with these nine worlds? Was it just a coincidence that Odin and Hela happened the conquer the nine worlds that align during the Convergence?
  • It's been speculated that the Nine Realms are a group of planets connected to each other by the World Tree, and are therefore reachable using the Bifrost. So it's not a coincidence Asgardians conquered those worlds, as they were the only ones they could easily reach. This would mean that the Bifrost and the Convergence are both related to the weird cosmic phenomenon which connects these planets, and which the Asgardians named the World Tree.
  • It might also be that Odin singled out those particular worlds to conquer because of their potential role in a Convergence. He knew that the Dark Elves had tried to exploit the phenomenon before, and wanted to secure Asgardian control over all the planets from which his father's old foes might attempt to do so again.

Banner is dead, long live the Hulk!

• So Banner jumps from an aircraft onto the Rainbow Bridge, figuring he'll turn into the Hulk on the way down. Instead, he smacks into the bridge and we get a lingering shot of his broken body and blankly staring eyes. I'd call that pretty dead. No green tinge to the skin, no swelling of any body parts to suggest he was starting to transform and had at least partial durability to survive that fall. A minute later, the Hulk appears to play with the big puppy dog. The way I interpret this scene, Banner was killed in the jump and isn't coming back ... now there is only Hulk! No more Puny Banner! As I recall in the comic Hulk: The End, Peter David, a pretty good Hulk author(ity), had Banner die of a heart attack and that left only the Hulk remaining to roam the Earth. So it may work that way in the MCU, too. My burning question: did the Hulk prevent Banner's mid jump transformation in order to kill Banner to free the Hulk? Was this premeditated murder?
  • First of all, Banner already went through exactly that in Incredible Hulk. Jumped out of helicopter, smacked into the ground, Hulked out, and then he was Banner again. Second, we see Banner back in human form in trailer for Infinity War.
  • In Hulk: The End, Banner almost had a heart attack, and a way to finally die (rambling about fire and Prometheus and stuffs). Then Hulk locked him away, knowing that if Banner ever return, he will kill them both. Bottom line is, their life is inseparable. It's impossible anyway for Banner to face fatal situation without feeling the rush that brings out the Hulk.
  • In Avengers, Banner states that shooting himself in the head didn't work because the Hulk is always there right under the surface. The Hulk's presence in his body keeps him from dying in his Banner-form. He doesn't need to transform (even partially) for the Hulk to protect him.
  • In a recent comics reveal? Banner is IMMORTAL. Period. Hulk cannot die. Ever.

Did Heimdall see Loki and the Gladiators coming?

• When Heimdall welcomes Loki, he tells him: "I saw you coming" and Loki dryly remarks: "'Course you did". What exactly does he mean? Does he mean "Great, my whole surprise is ruined" or was he saying that line in Sarcasm Mode? I mean, I think Loki could hide the whole ship from Heimdall and Heimdall does look a bit perplexed when Korg saves him... But I kinda can see it both ways.
  • Heimdall probably knew Loki was coming towards Asgard, but 1) not exactly what his purpose in coming was, and 2) not exactly, precisely when he would arrive because at the time he was a bit distracted by what was directly in front of him. Though I think Heimdall saying "I saw you coming" was actually his way of both teasing Loki a bit (since Loki had previously slipped by him) and offering an olive branch by claiming he believed in Loki's good intentions, and Loki's "Of course you did" might have the unspoken (and amused) tack-on of "And you thought I was going to screw you over, didn't you?"
  • It is established in the first Thor that Loki can hide from Heimdall's super sight whenever he wishes to. Heimdall doesn't see him when Loki doesn't want him to, like when he goes to parley with Laufey or goes to see Thor on Earth. So in Ragnarok that small exchange means Loki chose not to hide any more and actually allowed Heimdall to see him approaching Asgard with the gladiators.

Thor's restraining device

• How is it that the God of Thunder can get immobilized by that stunner on his neck? Shouldn't Thor be able to A: Absorb the electricity like it's nothing, or B: use his powers of thunder/lightning to overload and destroy it?
  • It is highly likely that the device doesn't release electricity, but some kind of neurotoxin instead. The way shocked characters get Tainted Veins seems to imply that.
    • Now that you mention it, the effect is a bit reminiscent of the icers from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
  • Rule of Funny is the most plausible explanation. It's just for laughs.

"Now you remind me of dad"

• I know Hela says this just to point out that, having lost an eye, Thor now resembles Odin. The problem is, as detailed in the first film, Odin lost his eye during the war with the Frost Giants, the same time he took in Loki, which should've been long after Hela was sealed away. So is this a retcon or an implication that Odin would visit Hela on occasion?
  • Odin is pictured with only an eye on the mural that she destroys. She presumably only got it from there, it would probably be way too much of a risk to visit her.
  • For all we know, Odin may indeed have maintained intermittent contact with his daughter while she was imprisoned. Or perhaps Frigga sent projections to "visit" Hela, same as she did with Loki.

How did the Casket of Ancient Winters get back in the vault?

• Last time we saw it, Loki used it in the observatory to freeze the Bifrost. Then Thor destroyed the Bifrost and the observatory exploded, and fell into the void. Did the explosion maybe throw the Casket back on Asgard instead of down into the abyss?
  • To quote Hela: "Fake! Most of the stuff in here is fake."
  • Except Hela calls the Casket of Ancient Winters "weak" instead of fake. And apparently the Casket fell with Loki but was recovered somehow.
  • Odin could have had Heimdall look for it and they could have retrieved it from wherever it ended up, to avoid it falling into the wrong hands.

Surviving a 30-minute fall

• Sure, that line was funny as shit. But seriously, how the hell is Loki not dead from having slammed into into the floor of Doctor Strange's New York Sanctum after falling for so long?
  • Loki, as a Jotun, is very resilient, a human would most certainly be squished after getting repeatedly smashed into a stone floor by the Hulk like in Avengers. But Doctor Strange most likely also slowed him down so that he wouldn't hit the floor at full speed. He still has the conviction that as a doctor he has to save lives and not kill people, and frankly, Thor is an Avenger and an ally, and Strange knows that it would have very bad consequences if he just killed the God of Thunder's little brother right in front of him.
    • More elaborately, Loki is the same size as a human, but more durable. This means that he'd hit the same terminal velocity as a human, in the same time, but said terminal velocity is quite possibly not fatal. Since he's shown himself to be as tough as an Asgardian and they've been shown to fall for more time than it takes to hit said velocity (though typically somewhat exceptional Asgardians) odds progress in his favour. This does admittedly require Strange's fall dimension to have similar properties to earth, but we're not given to believe otherwise, beyond the limited damage to the floor when he hits it, which would only point to the earlier conclusion that Strange had him falling slower than he would on earth. So A: he's tough, and B: A wizard did it.
    • Alternately, it's possible that whatever dimensional space Strange stuck Loki in for those 30 minutes doesn't have any gravity, in which case Loki would not have accelerated any during that time.
  • Loki survived being jettisoned from a flying chariot by an exploding arrow and getting Looney Tuned by the Hulk in The Avengers without so much as a lasting injury. Tanking a fall at terminal velocity is well within his capabilities.

Asgard is a people, not a place?

• If Asgard is a people, not a place, and Hela draws her strength from Asgard, shouldn't that mean killing Asgardians weakens her? And that destroying the place means nothing for her (unless Surtur got her in the explosion as well)?
  • I don't know how and why, but I've read multiple times that Hela only draws her power from Asgard the place. Possibly because she doesn't really care about the people themselves, but only about the
    • What? About the what?
    • I don't exactly remember what I wanted I write there, but I think it was "power" or "sway".
  • The movie's clearly trying to make a distinction between the sort of people Odin/Thor and Hela are. Hela gets her power from Asgard, the place, but the true Asgard is its people.
  • "Asgard, the place" refers specifically to the nation that was built from bloodshed and conquest, an imperialist power who built up its wealth and military dominance by swaying countless worlds. Hela, Odin's lieutenant during those campaigns, draws power from the death and destruction the nation was built on, and which still remain. Odin would later try to paper over this past, and evidently tried to turn his power towards diplomacy and mediation, using force to restore peace rather than conquer. Although Asgardians still enjoy the decadence and authority that their nation's past created, it's implied they also believe in nobler values than their predecessors. Hence why modern Asgardians don't even recognize Hela, and her armies are long-dead and rotting in the foundations of the Vault. So the death of one, a bunch, or possibly even all modern Asgardians wouldn't mean a thing to Hela.

Thor not remembering Stan Lee

• How come Thor didn't recognize Stan Lee when he was about to cut his hair? The two clearly met each other at the party in Age of Ultron, and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 implies that all the Stan Lee cameos in the MCU are the same character popping up everywhere. Couldn't he have said something like "Wait, don't I know you from somewhere?
  • Thor has fought in countless battles and attended countless parties. He's been doing this for hundreds and hundreds of years. One random party guest who couldn't hold his liquor isn't going to stick out in his mind. Besides, he's too preoccupied with the shaky-handed man coming at him with a weed wacker to think of whether he's seen a similar looking man before.

Heimdall Surprised by Fenrir

• As Heimdall leads the Asgardian across the rainbow bridge to Bifrost, he's suddenly surprised when the mist clears and he sees that Fenrir is guarding it, making him order everyone to run. How did Heimdall, who can see every world, miss the giant wolf on the same bridge as him?
  • Because he wasn't looking at it. Can see every world doesn't mean he always sees everything.
    • That doesn't really hold up, given that when trying to escape, you should watch your path for obstacles.
    • Sure it does — he was more concerned about being pursued than he was about being blocked.

Why is Hela so powerful anyway?

• I never really got this. Why is she basically invincible? Shouldn't she be at a similar durability level to Thor? I just don't see why they have to summon Surtur and can't just beat her through sheer force. Thor, Loki, the Hulk, Heimdall, Valkyrie, and any surviving Asgardian warriors working together should be able to take her down as well as Surtur, and won't destroy Asgard to do it.
  • As first born she was entitled to the power of Asgard. So when she returned Asgard empowered her. That is why they had to use Surtur to destroy her. As long as Asgard stood, she could draw power from it making her unstoppable.
  • Plus they draw attention repeatedly to the fact that sheer force won't work. Hela gets impaled on a huge sword when fighting the army and heals nigh instantly, and gets hit point blank by what Thor calls the most powerful thunderbolt he's ever used and yet gets right back up.

The Goddess of Death?

• So...is 'Goddess of Death' just a flowery title because she used to kill a lot of people? It's only via the Eternal Flame that she revives Fenris and the dead warriors, so she doesn't seem to have any death-related powers of her own. This also raises the question of why Thor explicitly has powers over thunder and lightning, but Hela's unique power seems to be...making lots of swords.
  • I was confused by this as well. The powers that she displays in the film were taken from a different character, Gor the God Butcher. Why they chose to merge the two is anyone's guess.
  • She's the Goddess of Inflicting Death, not the Goddess of Reversing it.
  • In the Marvel universe, Asgardians do not occupy the exact same roles as the Norse gods they're based on. Thor just happens to have powers that produce electricity, so the ancient Norwegians dubbed him the god of thunder; Odin is the king of Asgardians, so he was assumed to be the supreme god; and so on. It's implied Hela used to serve as Odin's personal executioner, using her talents to kill Asgard's enemies in masses, and because of this, someone dubbed her "the goddess of the death". It seems that Hela was imprisoned long before the other Asgadians met the ancient Scandinavians, so presumably they only heard some vague mentions of a "goddess of death" (since speaking about Hela seems to have been a taboo), and they assumed the title meant she literally rules the dead, so that's how they portrayed her in their mythology.

Surviving artifacts from Odin's Vault

• The Destroyer, the Casket of Ancient Winters, and the Eternal Flame (at least) are pretty sturdy and powerful artifacts in the comics; would they have endured the destruction of Asgard and remained floating somewhere in the cosmos?
  • Thor seemed to believe that it would destroy the Tesseract so it could have been the same case with them, but he could have been wrong.

Asgard has no interstellar ships?

• One thing I noticed is that the there appears to be no interstellar ships in the Asgard forces. When they travel they use the Bifrost even back when Odin was fighting on Earth. When they were evacuating from Asgard the only exit they had was the Bifrost in fact the only transport they got was from from another planet. Is it because the Asgardians were somewhat isolationists? Would explain why there no mass exits after Hela took over, it's just a strange limitation to have.
  • Given that the Bifrost can transport multiple people to other planets in literally seconds, I think it's less about the fact that they don't believe in interstellar transport, and more the fact that they didn't really need them. After all, why would you want to deal with the hassle of fueling up a ship, coordinating jump points, and estimating when you're going to arrive when you can literally have some guy send you there and back immediately with no cost? As for why they didn't have any as an emergency...well, given that Asgardians are a mighty and proud race, it could just be that nobody considered the idea of having to evacuate their home and see it destroyed before their eyes, thus they never prepared for that fatality.
  • Remember that Asgard was deprived of Bifrost's services for some time, between Thor and the first Avengers. Possibly any spacefaring vessels they did used to have on hand, if only as backup, got expended in a frantic uphill struggle to hold back the chaos that beset the Nine Realms during that period. Even after that mess was cleaned up, the need to rebuild infrastructure destroyed in the dark elves' attack was prioritized over replacing their lost or disabled spaceships.
  • Hela most likely disabled any spaceships Asgard might've had, to ensure Heimdall couldn't escape with the Bifrost blade and the general populace couldn't make a run for it.

Why Does No One Remember Hela?

• Do the "royal" Asgardians age differently or something? When she returns we don't see one single moment where she is recognized or remembered, even though there should still be plenty of her contemporaries left among the elderly and middle aged. For that matter, her only soldiers are the undead she revives. Shouldn't there be at least [i]one[/i] old comrade that was willing to take up arms for their old commander once more? It could be that her "draws power from Asgard" means that she (and presumably Odin) age even slower than normal Asgardians so that she's already outlived everyone from the old days, but otherwise it's strange that she is completely alone and unremembered.
  • Given how violent their lives can be, it's possible that few Asgardians reach old age (said to be about five thousand years, give or take a few hundred). Also, perhaps there were some old individuals who remembered Hela but they were killed off in the disasters Asgard faced in the previous movies. Or they retired to other parts of outer space. It is indicated that Hela's time was quite a ways back in Asgard's history at least, given that the Valkyries got killed off by her long after she was first imprisoned and by modern times the Valkyries themselves are semi-mythic to the Asgardians.

Strange having contact with Odin

• When Thor arrives in the New York sanctum, Doctor Strange tells Thor that Odin requested not to be disturbed while in exile. Question is, how did Strange find out Odin was on Earth, and establish contact with him afterwards?
  • Odin in the comics used to have adventures with Agamotto, so it's possible that the MCU Odin likewise keeps up a relationship with the line of Sorcerers Supreme. Upon shaking off Loki's confounding spell, the All-Father tried to contact the Ancient One, found out she'd died recently, and settled for having a word with her successor.