Headscratchers / Daredevil 2015 Part 2

Is Karen really this stupid?

• Okay, so, Karen goes to Matt's apartment and ends up seeing Elektra in his bed. That's easy to misunderstand as something it's not. The fact that he's at her side, not lying in it, and both are fully-clothed, less easy to misunderstand. But meeting Stick and therefore knowing he had other company, well... how the hell did she get "he must be cheating" from all that? Did she think that Matt was sleeping with Elektra while Stick perves on them? Or does she think the three of them are having some kind of demented threesome together? Both are creepy options. It also seems out of character for Karen to not make Matt talk right then and there. Sure, she might have allowed them to go somewhere else like he asked, because Karen cares about him and would have been willing to have the conversation somewhere Elektra and Stick weren't, but she wouldn't have left him until she knew what was going on.
  • Matt has been avoiding Karen's calls for days now and bunking off work, constantly refusing to tell her or Foggy where he's going or what he's doing. When she tries to find out for herself she finds a beautiful woman (albeit fully clothed) in his bed. Foggy presumably kept bringing up the joke of how Matt gets a lot of women into his bed despite being blind which probably didn't help. I had the same thought when I first watched the scene. Plus, yeah Elektra's fully clothed and Stick is there, but people often do get tunnel vision and end up assuming the worst when they're already suspicious. "Matt is avoiding my calls and missing work because he's seeing another woman" probably sounds a lot more reasonable to Karen at this point than "Matt, who is blind, is actually the Devil of Hell's Kitchen."
  • Karen probably didn't think Matt was cheating. Yes, it is a non-sexual scene that she walked into (considering everyone was clothed, Elektra looked half-dead and ill, and Stick was sitting around in the living room being a grump), but it's still very intimate. Elektra's in Matt's bed. Not a hospital, not the couch, and not her own house. Are there any normal circumstances where that would happen? So, big and incredibly weird stuff was happening in Matt's life, with people Matt was obviously extremely close to, but he never told Karen or Foggy about a word of it? Karen already knew he had secrets, but seeing that, it would've looked like a whole other double life - a lot more than just normal "secrets".
    • Furthermore, an attractive woman in her kind-of-date's bed is a very loaded image, especially since Elektra's wearing a too-large white button up shirt (like the one Matt gave Karen when she stayed over in the first episode of season 1). The scene was so quick it's no surprise Karen jumped to that conclusion. Putting aside the cheating angle, it's a direct confrontation with the fact that Matt has been lying to her. Him taking calls and cars from a "mystery client" is one thing, but actually seeing the people he's been sneaking around with makes it a more real deal. What's more baffling about it is that twice in the past, Karen absolutely refuses to stand still and get answers out of him when he begs for the chance to explain himself. She has every right to be upset obviously for like a zillion reasons beyond strange people in his apartment, but it does seem like if she truly wanted to know what was up that was basically the best time to demand the truth and accept no bullshit excuse without walking away. Let's also remember that Stick is driving wedges between Matt and his friends here, and he wouldn't have let Karen in unless he wanted her to see Elektra in Matt's bed.
  • One does have to wonder what Karen and Stick actually did say to each other when she arrived. Karen comes by, clearly expecting to find Matt alone, and here is Stick, Matt is not immediately present, and the bedroom door is closed. And then, far from demanding answers, Karen refuses them. Matt says to Karen, "Let's go somewhere so we can talk," and sh'’s having none of it. At this point, Karen is expecting Matt to lie, so she doesn't see any point in listening. And the next day, after Frank's trial goes down in flames, Matt tries again to talk to her, and she says she’s not going to listen to another bullshit excuse.
    Which begs the question, "what exactly was Matt planning on telling Karen if she had given him the chance to explain himself?" He probably could have gotten her to at least hear him out, if he had said something like, "No, no bullshit this time, Karen. You said if I ever wanted to tell you what was going on with me, then you would listen." No matter how angry Karen was with Matt, even if she was adamant against reconciling with him, she wants answers. If Matt was ready to tell Karen the truth, he could have gotten her to listen. And if he did, things would be very different the rest of the season. Some of the same events still would have happened, but maybe some of them wouldn’t if the two of them were talking to each other.
    Imagine, for instance, how differently the "I'm not yours to protect" conversation after Karen got shot at in her apartment would have gone if she knew the truth about Matt. If Matt and Karen started pooling their information right then and there, if Karen knew that Daredevil was pursuing the Blacksmith, would she have backed off and let Matt handle it, if he agreed to tell her what he found? Would she have gone so readily with Frank to the diner if she knew she had Daredevil by her side? If Matt and Karen met up after the boat explosion to discuss what happened, would Stick's men have been able to find Matt in time to warn him that Elektra was on her way to kill Stick before they bled out from their injuries? Would Karen have gone to see Colonel Schoonover on her own or would Matt have gone with her? Would the Hand have still kidnapped Karen or would Matt have prevented that from happening?
    But Matt doesn't try to convince Karen to listen, suggesting that he wasn’t ready to come clean yet. So he probably would have gone for half-truths, another round of "It's not what it look likes," definitely telling Karen that no, he isn’t sleeping with Elektra, but saying he can't explain everything now, but what he's doing is very important, or something like that. And that would have gone over like a lead balloon, because Karen has no reason to trust him by this point.
    In the last episode, when Matt finally does come clean with Karen, it's partly because of how he feels about her, that he truly no longer wants to lie to her. But it is also partly a reaction to his own failures over the course of the entire season. By this point, everything has fallen apart, there's nothing left of his life, and telling Karen the truth is the one thing he can rectify. Until he's driven to that low point, he still thinks he can handle things, and he still thinks hiding the truth is the right thing to do. It’s only after he's lost everything that Matt finally acknowledges that his treatment of Karen was wrong, and only then does he try to make amends.
  • Under normal circumstances, it's likely that Karen would go the “what is this weird team-up going on in your apartment?” route rather than the far less interesting “oh no, you must be cheating on me” one. But as previously posited, Karen was likely experiencing some tunnel vision. In Season 1, Foggy joked about Matt's sordid dating history, and given his strange disappearances, his injuries, and secret-keeping that she has now experienced firsthand from him, finding another woman in his bed may have just backed up suspicions of infidelity that Karen was already fostering (also, Matt's "I know this looks crazy, but it's really not" reaction is only a few steps above “It’s not what it looks like” as far as bad, not-at-all-suspicious explanations go).
    Therefore, given her anger and sense of betrayal, and all of the other mixed-up unpleasant emotions she must be feeling in that moment, it's not hard to consider it unreasonable for Karen to want to get out of there as quickly as possible. Having stumbled upon Matt “cheating”, she wouldn’t want to prolong the moment by sticking around and asking questions. In fact, she’d probably rather pretend the whole thing never happened and try to move on with her life. In their next real conversation, on the courthouse steps later that same episode, she comes right out and tells him that she’s not interested in trying to understand him anymore. As she now sees it, he doesn’t care about being honest with her, and her natural curiosity and investigative spirit can only extend so far.
    But what if she had taken the time to question what she was seeing? There's so many ways that would have gone. Stick let Karen in specifically to interrupt Matt and Elektra's bonding moment, so if she were to question who he was and what he was doing there, Stick likely would have conjured up with some convenient lie and try to direct her attention to Matt and Elektra anyway. There's no way Stick would go ahead and give her the truth about the ninjas, or even about Matt being Daredevil, because the fight with the Hand is at such a delicate stage at this point that secrecy is likely a priority. (Although it wouldn't be out of character for Stick to just offhandedly tell Karen that Matt is Daredevil, and then sit back and watch the resulting fireworks, since Stick has no respect for Matt’s secret identity shenanigans.) It's unlikely that Matt would tell Karen that he’s Daredevil either, unless she absolutely forced him. For Matt, this would be the worst possible situation in which to share his big secret, so he might just go for a plausible half-truth: like, "This is Elektra. She's a former girlfriend of mine from college. She uh, got mugged and stabbed pretty badly, and she needed a place to recuperate; she didn't want to go to the hospital or get the police involved." (Which would probably be a slightly more believable story than the truth, which is "I am a superhero, and these are my allies in a secret ninja war"). Whether Karen would buy that as the whole truth and not delve further is debatable, but seems… unlikely. Of course, Elektra might not even back up Matt's story, given her annoyance with Matt continually running off to do his legal work, and which is why Karen stops by in the first place. Now, if Karen had asked questions, it might have been better. That version of events probably would have ended with Matt telling Karen he's Daredevil, but the writers avoided it because they wanted Matt to just tell Karen as a choice, rather than be because he's forced to tell her (like had been the case with Foggy).
  • Karen didn't necessarily 100% think Matt was cheating on her. She just found it super weird to find some random woman in his bed (sex or not) that she's never heard of before and some other random old guy while Matt's exhibiting very sketchy behavior and barely showing up at court or doing anything he should be doing. It's more of an "I'm just done with all these lies and the ensuing confusion and I don't want to talk it out with you right now" moment. Yes, she explicitly said later he may be sleeping with a "whole harem of women" but to be fair, she mentioned a lot of random scenarios he could be in (like being in a fight club) and a lot of them don't sound real to begin with. So likely, Karen's just confused in general.
  • At the time Karen shows up, things aren’t going well at the Frank Castle trial, given that the son of one of Frank's victims had that outburst about Frank killing his father. Both Karen and Foggy are stressed out and becoming impatient with Matt's absence. During a recess, they argue whether or not they actually need their friend and Karen decides to go find Matt, who at that point is distracted tending to his injured ex-girlfriend. Sure enough the second he hears her come in, he becomes anxious. Matt doesn’t have to use his abilities to sense Karen's presence. He knows it's her and quickly jumps off the bed to see her standing before him in the doorway. Oddly enough Matt is surprised to see Karen and he’s unable to process an explanation; the best he do is breathe her name. And she just stands there stunned wearing a confused expression surveying him and the wounded Elektra. But remember that just a week or so back on their first date, Matt politely declined Karen’s offer to sleep with her.^note Which, based on the scene in season 3 where Matt changes shirts in front of Karen while they're in the church, could be because Matt didn't want to ruin the mood by getting undressed and having to deal with Karen seeing his scars; another reason is that the plot needed Matt to be somewhat available, romantically, when Elektra showed up. And this is all happening just as Karen is starting to figure out her feelings for Matt. She wants to believe he’s not unfaithful, but between her frustrations with his disappearing acts Karen isn’t in the mood to get answers. As Matt approaches her, he urgently insists they go somewhere to talk privately; but she backs away refusing his hands. Karen isn’t interested, wanting more than ever to just leave. Matt’s voice is shrouded in guilt as he utters, “this isn’t what it looks like.” To which Karen stutters back “it doesn’t-doesn’t matter…” and as she says this, the shame washes over his face. He knows he’s hurt her in the worst way, the fact that she won’t let him repair the damages is killing him. And this is a person he never wanted to cause pain. Karen can’t even think straight or look him in the eye let alone take in anymore of his excuses. And instead covers up her humiliation with a scapegoat of being there solely about the trial. Before Matt can respond, Karen quickly exits out of the bedroom doorway and hurries to vacate the premises as fast as she can. Leaving Matt standing there in silence, torn, wearing his infamous wounded puppy look as he processes the whole confrontation. The scene is deliberately made awkward to create that authentic aura of a lover catching their significant other red handed yet the atmosphere remains tame and not too overly heated or melodramatic. And because this scene is so small it can be hard to miss the layers going on.
  • There seems to be some implication that Karen took all of those questions and put them in a file marked "I'm not invested enough here to even care what the answers are." while they were sort of on the precipice of a relationship there, that it was early enough that she could have comfortably decided it wasn't worth waiting to find out the answers. That said, had Karen stayed and asked questions it might have been better. In that version of events, this scene would have ended with Matt reluctantly telling Karen that he’s Daredevil. The reason the scene didn't go that way is because the writers wanted Matt to just tell her as a choice, and not have it be where he was forced by circumstances to tell her.

  • It's unlikely that Karen would have grilled him. The point of her walking away in this scene is that she walks away. She doesn’t want to be treated like this. She knows what she is too good for, which is refreshing. She just isn’t going to put up with Matt's BS. She doesn’t ask, and she doesn’t even let Matt explain. For all she knows there could be a whole harem full of women. She seriously doesn’t care at that moment. She cares, but she knows that she can’t go down this road. For obvious reasons, Karen doesn’t do secrets well, and Matt was already hurting her all season, with his “secret client” BS. There is a reason he doesn’t tell Karen about Elektra. It’s part fear for her, but mostly fear for himself. And it’s not like Karen could just take or leave Matt, at least not for long. The problem is, after episode 8, everything in the Punisher (for Karen) and the Hand/Elektra storylines (for Matt) starts kicking off, and they don’t really get a chance to talk until the end of the season. Of course, if Matt had told Karen, Karen would have gone to Foggy and Foggy would have explained how bad Elektra is/was for Matt. That would have led to Karen and Foggy trying to separate Elektra from Matt, which would just get ugly.
    • We don't know if Matt ever told Karen about Elektra in the reveal conversation at the end of season 2 / the flashback at the start of season 3.^note If they did, it must've happened offscreen, and for obvious reasons: Elektra wasn't in season 3, so discussing her would not really be relevant to the immediate story in the way that say, any references Matt might make to fighting the Russians or Fisk would But regardless, would Karen have known about Elektra being in The Defenders? What was the news coverage like? Are there security tapes from Midland Circle? The cameras themselves would have been crushed, but if it was beamed to a cloud service (in a setup similar to how Fisk is able to tap into cameras during season 3) then that footage exists. We know at the start of season 3 that Karen has been poking around Midland Circle for months. Let's say that Matt and Karen do have that conversation about Elektra separately from what we saw in the season 3 flashback. How would it go? How much would Matt tell her? What would precipitate it? Would Elektra need to reappear for that to happen. It's likely that the most organic way that would happen would be for Elektra to come back, start working with Karen, and Karen going to Matt to try and fish for details. See how he likes it. Even then, would he tell her everything? From the "almost killing Roscoe Sweeney" to the "kiss under a collapsing high-rise"? It's unlikely that Karen would have a problem with Elektra as another woman in Matt’s life, except for the whole getting Matt to kill. But Matt kissing Elektra under Midland Circle is the big thing. Karen had called their baby bird of a relationship off by that point, but still.
  • If Karen grilled Matt right there and then, Matt could try some lie, but he’s not particularly creative. All the lies he and Foggy come up with are pretty basic and don’t quite cover an injured woman and a very old ninja. The way the season is structured makes Matt’s confession to Karen the final scene of the season, so it's likely she would have left, angry and confused about what he was keeping from her, and Karen’s trajectory could have then gone to her investigating Matt. Talking to Foggy about seeing an old man in Matt’s apartment may have prompted some information about Stick, with Foggy emphasizing that she needs to talk to Matt. It would have changed the entire last scene of the show (as well as the flashback at the start of season 3), in that instead of being a passive receptor to Matt’s confession, Karen would have an active, investigative role. Maybe she'd go to St. Agnes and asked about Stick. It's possible that the sisters wouldn't have much more information to provide her, given how minimal Stick's interaction would've been with them, but it still seems so strange that Karen, who is lauded for her investigative skills when it comes to the investigations into Fisk or Frank, ends up missing Stick and Elektra’s condition in the scene for a patently wrong conclusion. Especially when she is already suspicious of every reason Matt’s given her so far for his actions.
  • Stick is written in character here. He lets Karen in because he wants her to think Matt is being unfaithful to her, or at least think he is keeping too many secrets from her. Stick is always trying to ruin Matt's personal life by severing his connections to other people because he thinks they're weaknesses. Karen absolutely would have stayed and stuck around to find out exactly what was going on, if the writers were going to portray her in character. In season 1, Karen always demanded an explanation for what was going on. She would have gotten to the bottom of what was happening in Matt's apartment when she walked in. Instead, the writers made Karen act stupid and irrational, which she's not, for the sake of plot because they needed all of Matt's friends to abandon him, so that he's alone with Elektra, and then when she dies, it hurts him even more, because then he would feel as though he had nothing.^note Honestly, you would think that Stick would pounce at this point and attempt to recruit Matt to the Chaste or something, telling him that now that he had nothing and had a real reason to hate the Hand, that he would want to join the Chaste. Matt probably still would have refused, but still... Plus, if Karen grills Matt there and then and finds out that he's Daredevil five episodes early, that means the two of them wouldn't have been at odds with each other the way they are in the back half of the season. Not to mention in this back half, Karen's arc is about trying to validate Frank's actions to justify her own actions (with her brother's death and Wesley), and that requires her to not already know Matt is Daredevil, because she likely would've lost sympathy for Frank once she learned about Frank shooting Matt in the head and leaving him concussed. It's also likely that Matt would have gone with her to visit Colonel Schoonover. While he wouldn't be able to talk her out of meeting Frank at the diner, she wouldn't have gone to that meeting alone.

  • It's definitely out of character for Karen to not ask questions right then and there (as far as we know, she asked about his senses in the Season 3 flashback to the identity reveal, but she didn't ask about Elektra, or Stick, for that matter?). On the other hand, there was a lot of emotion building up to that moment and it all came to a breaking point for her, and brilliant reporter she may be but she’s also human. She’s also self-aware…so maybe she was afraid interrogating Matt then and there would lead to her saying something too harsh, in the slight chance that he wasn’t actually cheating on her. (If so, great job on Karen for exerting self-control, but that still doesn’t explain why we never got to see her following up later.) As for what would happen if she gave Matt a chance to explain himself, well...for Matt to give Karen a fair explanation, he wouldn't just have to admit that he's Daredevil. He'd also have to explain who Elektra and Stick are. And to explain who Elektra and Stick are, he would also have to explain to Karen who the Hand and the Chaste are (which he barely understands himself, at this point). In other words, a fair explanation to Karen would be at least five to ten solid minutes of exposition as Matt tells Karen all the things that we (the audience) already know.

What if it had been Foggy, not Karen, who found Elektra in Matt's bed?

• What if it had been Foggy instead of Karen who had found Elektra in Matt's apartment? I think that the scene would've gone down differently, maybe with a slightly better outcome. I say this because Elektra and Stick were complete strangers to Karen, whereas Foggy is somewhat familiar with both of them: he knows Matt dated Elektra in college. Furthermore, Matt told Foggy about Stick in "Nelson v. Murdock".
  • Probably would've gone better, but given the tension between them, it's hard to say. At the very least, he most likely would've given him a chance to explain.
  • If it had been Foggy rather than Karen who showed up, the scene certainly would have been slightly less awkward, but not by much. On the one hand, Foggy is already aware that Matt has been hanging out with Elektra. He would not be too surprised to find her there, though he might also be a bit freaked out to find himself face-to-face with Elektra, since he’s just recently learned who she actually is and what she’s capable of. I'd guess that Foggy would be angry with Matt for continuing to engage in superhero team-ups in the middle of the trial– particularly with Elektra, who he knows just actively damaged their case by threatening their witness– but he wouldn’t be as shocked or hurt by it as Karen, and he definitely wouldn’t want to get into an argument with Matt about it in front of Stick and Elektra. Ultimately, if it had been Foggy, the scene would have been a bit less damaging, but still supremely awkward.
    • It's also worth noting that it's likely Matt would have told Karen earlier under these circumstances. Remember that Foggy told Matt once he learned of Elektra's ​reappearance that “you should be the one to tell Karen about her." Foggy being the one to come to Matt's apartment might spur Matt to tell Karen earlier. Foggy might have had an even stronger reaction if he had seen Elektra in the apartment for himself, and that might have scared Matt enough, the possibility that Foggy would tell Karen before he could.
  • One fanfic writer wrote a one-shot theorizing how things would go with Foggy showing up instead of Karen.
  • If Foggy was switched for Karen in that scene, it would have robbed Karen of some knowledge and development. Because Karen was kept out of the bathroom argument, she already didn’t know about Elektra, so from a writing standpoint, this would just be a rehash of that argument: "Foggy gets mad at Matt. Foggy tells Matt to be honest with Karen. Matt continues to make bad choices. Karen continues to be none the wiser." Logistically, if the show went the route of having Foggy show up, he would have taken Matt aside and delivered an ultimatum: Either Matt calls Karen right then and there (or within 24 hours) and arranges a meeting, or Foggy will tell Karen the truth himself. Both scenarios would make Foggy a bit pushy and a babysitter, but sometimes a friend’s gotta do what a friend’s gotta do.
  • There's no way that Foggy would come back from walking in on that scene if he had showed up. He makes clear that he hates keeping Daredevil a secret from Karen, and this would be the last straw in a "I'm done covering for you, Matt" kind of way. The situation is similar to the bathroom scene where Matt reveals that Elektra screwed things up. So Foggy walking in and seeing Elektra in Matt's bed…the visual would make him hate Daredevil even more. It's probably for the better that it was Karen because she’s already too in the dark with Daredevil as it is. This way, she sees the weirdness with her eyes and bows out. The way things go down in the actual show, she gets to walk away with dignity, but Foggy telling her (which he just might if he saw that), that would be terrible, as Foggy is loyal to Karen, so he almost certainly have told Karen something was going on with her boyfriend.
  • By this point, Foggy is starting to realize that Elektra is bad news bears. It would have torn him apart thinking that this was one more thing he had to hide from Karen. It probably would have been the breaking point for Foggy. Not that he would tell Karen everything, but it would certainly be a breaking point of, “I can’t trust you, Matt. Karen can’t trust you. You have to tell her! You have to tell her this at the very least. Because I’m not carrying the weight of this secret too,” and there would have been a lot more shouting. The big meeting in that situation would have actually been Foggy meeting Stick face to face. Certainly Foggy would have some choice words for his best friend’s so called mentor / abuser. Maybe Foggy would have defended Matt a lot more eagerly… but, before this, he would have been pressing Matt to come clean with Karen. In other words, Elektra is bad news bears, Matt would have been called a dumbass, Foggy probably would have gotten mad at Matt about not adding more secrets to their ever growing laundry list of secrets and demanded that Karen be told about Elektra, and then Foggy would have gotten protective and given Stick a piece of his mind. Elektra would be too hurt to get Foggy on the war path toward her… But he would have wanted to.
  • Foggy would have been more inclined than Karen to view the situation as cheating. While Karen is largely bewildered by the situation, Foggy knows just what kind of relationship Matt had with Elektra in the past and, given how badly that ended, would be afraid of Matt falling back into that bad relationship. So Foggy would have probably had it out with Matt right there in his living room with Stick and Elektra awkwardly watching. Because Foggy knows just enough of what’s going on, he would feel like he has ground to stand on and he would also feel some need to defend Karen in her absence. But in turn, because Foggy at that stage knows that Matt is Daredevil, Matt would have more room to just start explaining things: "we were fighting ninjas, and she got stabbed by a poisoned blade and needed a place to recuperate, and this is the guy who taught me to fight."
    This wouldn't have had much of an impact on Foggy, because at this point, the relationship between the two of them is really damaged and at his core, Foggy probably wouldn't believe (or care about) anything Matt tells him about the Hand or conspiracies going on in the city. Foggy probably wouldn't be able to categorize whether he thinks Matt is lying or insane, is being deceived by Stick or whatever, but he just knows that deep down he [Foggy] can’t accept the reality of an ancient order of evil ninjas attacking the city. So at this point, no matter what Matt says, Foggy isn’t going to believe in the necessity of him being Daredevil, or of him working with Elektra. So Foggy’s major takeaways from walking away from that are going to be that Matt is choosing this weird side of his life– the old mentor, the addiction to violence, the crazy ex-girlfriend (as Foggy sees it all)– over him and over Karen, which Foggy sees as definitively the good side of Matt’s life.
    This would ultimately just put Foggy and Matt into the position we see them at by the end of the season a bit sooner. But it would also delay the progression of Matt’s relationships with Karen and Elektra. He and Karen wouldn’t split as soon, and Matt would never truly allow himself to cheat on Karen with Elektra, so he would end up suppressing his feelings for Elektra and keep her and Stick at arm's length. Which probably would just end up damaging both of those relationships even more.
  • Foggy is a wild card. He’s loyal to his friends, but he stays out of their business. He urged Matt to tell Karen the truth early on in season two, but that seems to be as far as Foggy is willing to go. Not his circus, not his monkeys, as it were. Matt and Karen are adults. They shouldn’t need Foggy to push them. It isn’t his responsibility to “tattle” on one to the other.
    • With that said, Karen seeing Elektra was good and bad. Good because she got a glimpse of Matt’s BS. Bad because…well, the writers could have fixed everything easily enough, and pretty early in the season too. A perfect example? Matt and Karen’s heated conversation about Frank during dinner. Matt saw Karen siding with some grey morals. It was a great time for him to come clean. Karen could have confessed to Wesley and possibly whatever she’s done in the past. But the writers didn’t. Because Matt and Karen hadn’t been dating long and because the writers needed to tear the characters down to a low point. It’s standard procedure in any media.
    • But anyways, on the subject of Foggy, most of us are probably like, “Foggy, honey, no. You grab Matt in that bathroom and smack him. You tell him to come clean with Karen or you’ll tell her about Elektra instead.” It wasn’t Foggy’s place, but in a way it also was. Karen is his friend too. You warn your friends. Foggy saw Matt spiral downwards with Elektra before, so he should have said something. And he would have if he had seen Elektra in Matt's bed.
  • There probably would've been a complete knock-out-drag-out fight. Foggy knows exactly how bad Elektra is for Matt. He was there in the beginning. He knows how it started, and he has been there the entire time. It’s not like they were best friends in law school and then split up and now are back together. Foggy has been there through it all. All the one night stands and the short relationships. The figurative parade of women through Matt’s life. Foggy also knows how ‘happy’ Matt was when he was with Elektra. It’s not a good kind of happy. It’s the coked-out-of-your-mind kind of happy. Foggy can see the difference, therefore knows the type of impact Elektra had/has. She's been Matt’s only real romantic connection. It would be one thing if Elektra had been one of his meaningful romantic connections, and then Matt had had other fulfilling healthy relationships, but due to Matt's abandonment issues, it's clear that all of his important romantic connections between when he broke things off with Elektra and when he first met Karen were of the negative kind. And given all this, it's likely Foggy would've let Matt explain himself, then he and Karen would've done everything they could to get Matt away from Elektra.
    • The only good thing that would come out of Foggy being the one to find Elektra in his bed would be that he would have also chewed the hell out of Matt for seemingly (and kinda literally) betraying Karen. A downside to this is that since the plot structure kinda requires Matt and Karen to be broken up, Foggy would be saddled with the terrible burden of having to tell Karen. Or, figuring that Matt's secrets aren't his to tell, he'd basically threaten Matt into telling Karen in a "either you tell her, or I'm quitting the firm" way.

What if Matt were injured, not Elektra?

• So what if Matt had been the injured party recuperating in bed instead of Elektra when Karen dropped by?
  • Under these circumstances, Karen certainly would have stuck around and demanded to know what was going on, even with Stick and Elektra being there. The Frank Castle trial also probably would have been even worse since Foggy wouldn't be able to concentrate on a case he really didn't want to take knowing that his best friend had been hurt again.

Karen keeping silent on Wesley's death

• I've had to wonder, why doesn't Karen disclose to Matt or Foggy that she had killed Wesley? I keep thinking that at some point, she would tell them about it (the writing heavily implies that Karen's guilt over shooting Wesley is the main reason she gravitates so much towards Frank Castle and wants him to overcome his Punisher syndrome), but there might be some reasons why she'd keep quiet:
  • Her guilt over it seems to be a likely possibility.
  • Karen could be afraid that Matt and Foggy would judge her, maybe even distrust her, to find out that she'd killed Wesley. True, it's likely Matt and Foggy would've decided Karen's actions constituted justifiable homicide if she told them all the things Wesley had said (he had explicitly threatened Matt and Foggy's lives in their conversation), but she wouldn't know what they'd do.
    • Wesley's death was self-defense. At least, I'm pretty sure it would under section 35.15 of the New York state law. Matt may have a code against killing as Daredevil, but the way Matt talks about Frank Castle's methods in season 2, I think he acknowledges that sometimes killing is necessary. Karen was defending herself from a clear and imminent threat on her life - Wesley was threatening to kill her friends and family if she didn't do what he said, and she used the distraction of his phone ringing to grab the gun, reasoning (accurately as it turns out) that Fisk was calling and Wesley about to tell him about her. Wesley took her hostage at gunpoint, and she defended herself rather than submitting to his exploitative demands (and self-defense of a third party is a thing).
  • It's possible that Karen might think Matt and Foggy will inform the police about Karen's actions, and she's afraid that detectives will dig up her past history. We know Karen may have deliberately killed someone else in the past, given she calls Wesley's bluff and can tell the difference between a loaded handgun and an empty one, and her line "Do you really think this is the first time I've shot someone?" before shooting him.
  • She actually does come pretty close to talking about Wesley's death onscreen in "Dogs to a Gunfight", where it seems implied that the trauma over Wesley's death was reawakened by the hospital shooting. While she's on her laptop at the office, Foggy talks to her and this dialogue comes up:
    Karen Page: First Fisk? And now this guy? I mean, what if I'm drawing this stuff my way?
    Foggy Nelson: You're not. You're gonna be fine. Punisher's just a nickname.
    Karen Page: Yeah? Well what if I deserve it?
    Foggy Nelson: What are you talking about?
    [long silence]
    Karen Page: Nothing. Just...none of this feels real, I guess.
  • ...Based on the pause and the way Karen said "What if I deserved it?", it almost seemed like she was going to respond to Foggy's question with "Back when we were bringing down Fisk, I killed that guy he sent to hire us to defend that bowling alley killer." In fact, her subsequent conversation with Matt seemed headed the same way, too. At one point, she actually indirectly references Wesley's death like it was a band-aid she was afraid to rip off.
  Karen Page: There's something about this city that makes good people want to shoot their way out of bad situations!
  Matt Murdock: You think this...Punisher could be a good person?
  Karen Page: No. No, I'm just saying....he could be any one of us.
  • Karen has quite a lot of other emotional baggage that she needs to figure out for herself before she'll ever come clean about Wesley's death with Matt or Foggy. Not knowing the precise nature of her dark past makes it harder to read Karen, but it does seem that she's on a journey towards coming to acceptance of Wesley's death. Matt’s views on killing, and her post-season 2 awareness that Matt is Daredevil– a superhero!– might, if anything, make Karen even less comfortable about opening up about her dark side. The whole reason she starts investigating Frank is because she is trying to not see herself as a monster, and is terrified of other people seeing her as one if they learn about her part in Wesley's death. Her time mourning Matt post-Defenders has probably given Karen room to work through her feelings and reach a mindset where she might feel comfortable sharing her secrets with other, less murder-sympathetic people, giving both the room to enter Daredevil Season 3 with the capacity to be a bit more honest with each other.
  • She tells Matt the reason why in season 3, when they are hiding from Dex in the crypt: she didn't want to shatter the image of innocence that Matt had of her. It's actually important to note that Matt's the first person she ever willingly chose to tell about Wesley's death (and he's the first person she ever told the truth about her brother's death too, in this same scene). When she tells Foggy and Fisk about Wesley (in episodes 5 and 8 respectively), it was because she had to. As her lawyer, Foggy would have had to keep his mouth shut, and Fisk wouldn't have said something either, him instead sending Dex to kill her.
  • One thing that's pretty clear by how Karen is depicted is that a lot of her guilt is compartmentalized, and she probably doesn't have as much shame for her own actions as Matt does for his. See, when she expresses regret, it always seems to be specific to her individual actions. (”I killed my brother, and I can’t atone for that,” or “I killed Wesley,” or whatever.) She doesn’t seem to express a more generalized sense of shame (”I am a bad person” or any equivalent to “having the devil inside”), nor does she seem to express either guilt or shame that is tied to her otherwise "good" acts.^note And by that, I mean acts that she might think of as good or heroic. I don’t think Foggy (or even every viewer) would agree that all of Karen's acts are necessarily good or heroic, but just that these are acts she does with the intent of helping other people. Like, does she feel guilt/shame for going rogue to protect Frank? For baiting Fisk into going after her on camera? For running around digging up information on various bad guys who have every reason to silence her? In regard, no, Karen doesn’t have a sense of guilt/shame that taints those actions. She doesn’t even seem to have guilt/shame over the connection between her sniffing around Fisk’s past and Ben’s murder (which I think is a mistake on the writers’ part, but I digress).
    All that to say, there’s nothing in the show indicating that Karen can’t be perfectly willing to feel guilt (maybe shame) over certain specific actions of hers, while also feeling rather proud of herself for all the good things she’s done. In fact, the show suggests that she is proud of herself for those things (and in an uncomplicated, "not-tainted-by-guilt-or-shame "kind of way) by not only the fact that she keeps doing them, but also the fact that she seems so indignant when asked to stop. As if she honestly can’t think of a reason why she should stop.

Ellison's ethics regarding Karen

• I keep wondering, is that really a good idea on Ellison's behalf to hire Karen for the Bulletin and give her Ben Urich's old office right off the bat? I would think he'd be one to play it safe and treat Karen as a valuable informant, and pair her up with another experienced staff writer within the Bulletin to write stories based on whatever information she was getting. I also think it likely Karen wouldn't get Urich's office, but rather a small desk somewhere or commissioned as a freelance contributor (not permanent staff). To hire Karen just like that THEN give her the office of an experienced, award-winning journalist when there are other staff members who could have been more deserving of Urich's space is just going to raise questions about Ellison's competency, as I don't imagine other staff not complaining to the paper's Human Resources (not to mention it's unlikely Ellison could have just hired someone just like that without HR vetting that person, which would've included a background check and whatnot). This is the sort of move that should result in whispers going on around the newsroom about how Ellison hired a pretty young blond girl with minimal experience and qualification to show for, gave her an office, and had her work on a single story that she was very much personally involved in. Which is a conflict of interest: Once you are held hostage by one of your sources, or one of your sources tries to kill you, you are then part of the story and should not be the one reporting it objectively.
  • I was under the impression that's a big reason why she got the job. As well as having a natural sleuthing talent and drive, the way Ellison acted around her towards the end of season two made me think he had something of a crush on her. Like, maybe affection like a father to his daughter. This seems more apparent in the scene early in season 3 where he has her over for dinner with his family.
  • I would think that Ellison would, in real life, have to give Karen a crash course in proper journalistic writing style. Just my opinion here, but Karen's whole "What is it like, to be a hero?" article has too many emotional flourishes and doesn't sound like something that any paper would realistically publish. It's more like an inspiration Facebook post, not a front page story worthy of a major newspaper. In fact, my concern comes from reading a Matt / Karen reconciliation fic, and the author's notes say it grew out of the idea that "It's really not realistic to think that Karen could just walk into a journalism career, when as far as we know she has no qualifications."
  • Is Ellison playing favorites and giving Karen an opportunity she wouldn't normally have had? Definitely, but he's clearly doing it because he feels bad about Ben Urich's death and he knew that Ben had grown close to Karen before he was killed. Also Karen is not just great at the investigative side of reporting, she's also coming to Ellison with a huge story, the kind that would probably win Pulitzers, which could make or break a struggling paper. The kind of story Ben would've insisted on chasing, and that's why Ellison wants Karen with the Bulletin. He can see she's got the bug that made Ben great in his heyday. Yeah, that piece of hers shows she does need to work on her writing skills, yeah, but she's got editors like Ellison for that, and not a single one of his other reporters is bringing him inside scoops on political corruption, murder and conspiracies the way Karen is. Remember that it was because of Karen's persistence and her killing James Wesley that Wilson Fisk's criminal empire fell, and it was because of Karen's persistence that the conspiracy surrounding the death of Frank Castle's family was exposed.
  • Ellison spent season one trying to convince Ben into writing about worthless fluff pieces, rather than "former mafia don has been dethroned" pieces. Writers might have backpedaled about it, but Ellison didn't give a shit about journalism until season 2, complaining that bloggers got paid twice as much to write from home in their underwear. So hiring Karen to make "feel good" human interest stories isn't that outside of his original character.
    • In season 1, Ellison was bitching about revenue and forcing Ben to work on fluff pieces that sold papers, as opposed to hard hitting pieces (which is a real world issue), which suggests that the Bulletin is suffering from the same problem that many real papers are facing with the rise of social media. If that's the case, then when Ben was killed, Ellison would need to get approval from HIS boss if he wanted to fill the vacancy. If his boss approved it, one of three things would happen: 1.) The Bulletin immediately hires his replacement from inside, by either promoting someone from a different beat, or hiring someone who worked either part-time for them or on a freelance basis; 2.) They immediately open the position to the outside world and field thousands of resumes, because the Bulletin is supposed to be one of the biggest papers in America's biggest media market; or 3.) If the vacancy goes unfilled for a long period of time (a couple of months passed between Ben's death and when Karen walked in there), they don't hire the position and it gets eliminated in a cost-cutting move.
    • If Ben was a seasoned investigative reporter, he (a) wouldn’t be asked to write fluff about subway colors, because that’s what the intern copywriters are for, and (b) he would know that he shouldn't try to run an article about Fisk's family history without even one legitimate source to back it up. It’s unethical. It violates the very principles of journalism. Between that and Ben seeming to not have cultivated much knowledge of the internet, he should have been fired. Ellison’s call was totally correct. In addition, Ben accused Ellison of being on Fisk’s take with no evidence, and there wasn’t any because Ellison wasn’t on the take (and the discovery that Ellison's secretary was dirty didn't come out until Hoffman flipped, which happened after Ben was killed). And pestering people and taking advantage of someone like Fisk's senile mother to get a story isn't the most ethical thing ever. Hell, Bob Woodward of all people did that. (He snuck into a hospital to get a dying man’s partial confession for a larger report he was working on, and this pisses people off to this day. People who hold him in high regard for Watergate tend to pretend this never happened)
  • The Bulletin job is a good fit for this version of Karen Page. The writers' reasoning behind the decision was that they wanted to put Karen in a job that gave her the freedom to have her own plot arcs, and still remain fully immersed in the action, but not be heavily tied to Matt. Of course, realistically, it requires a stretch of disbelief to accept that someone without a journalism degree or prior experience in the field would land a job with one of New York City's major newspapers just like that. One has to assume that Karen probably had to spend the several months between the end of season 2 and the start of The Defenders basically having to learn through trial and error how to write proper prose and all that good stuff.
  • The improbability of Karen's career trajectory is lampshaded in The Punisher by Dinah Madani, who points out that Karen's climb from secretary to murder suspect to legal assistant to full-on reporter in a relatively short amount of time is pretty improbable.
  • In season 1, it's implied that Ellison was under a lot of pressure from the Bulletin management to get circulation numbers up by any means necessary, and if it means recycling a worthless "subway line" story, so be it. Ben’s death was a wakeup call for Ellison that forced him to see the stakes at hand regarding what Ben's investigation into Fisk had turned into. So by season 2, Ellison had likely pressured the owners into being a lot more lenient about the revenue stream. His guilt has also made him extra protective of anyone else (…Karen) digging into dangerous stories. How he handles Karen's investigating is similar to how Foggy and Karen handle things with Matt's Daredeviling during The Defenders and season 3: he knows that it’s pointless to tell Karen to stop (as it was with Ben), so he makes sure that at the very least, she’s not doing it alone. By doing everything in his power to help and protect her, Ellison is atoning for his past mistakes, and ensuring that if Karen does get hurt, at least he won’t feel like he should have done more.
  • The scene in season 3 where Karen visits Fisk more or less justified the decision to make her a journalist. If Nelson & Murdock were still open and she were still just the firm's "office manager", it's hard to imagine that the FBI agents would've allowed her through to see Fisk.
  • From a writing standpoint, it makes sense for Karen to get the Bulletin. She's a talented investigator, she wants to publicize the dirt that bad people (like Fisk and Reyes) try to bury, someone has to fill the role of the resident journalist now that Ben Urich is dead, and most importantly, since the writers chose to break up the firm of Nelson & Murdock, they needed somewhere for Karen to go so she'd still have something to do. But on a technical level, where reality kicks in, it does mean that Karen is basically all over the place and being given jobs she's not qualified for. She hopped from one job to another with minimal training. There's where the writers really didn't know what to do with her as far as finding her a paying job that not only would suit her footing in investigating, but one she was also qualified for. The thing with that was that at Nelson & Murdock, she was their secretary / office manager, but that term in and of itself sounds sexist. So the writers tried for Karen to have other, more important jobs, without giving consideration to the training, experience and/or qualifications she'd need for these jobs, giving off the air (to those who don't like Karen) of "she's being handed all this crap that others had to work their asses off to achieve".^note The show doesn't give us much in regards to Karen's relationships with her other coworkers. Just seemed cordial to her. And she was certainly upset enough about Dex killing some of them in the Bulletin attack to go visit Fisk and provoke him. But certainly some of them had to be a little miffed as employees (aspiring journalists, even) that some rando person with no training got the office and job of a veteran journalist.
    We know from Deborah Ann Woll that about 11 years passed between the flashback covering Karen's backstory and when we met her at the start of season 1. It is possible that Karen had some formal training in journalism or investigating or something along those lines in that time between when she left Fagan Corners and when she started working at Union Allied, and that she took the job as a secretary at Nelson & Murdock because, well, she needed a job, and then she was given Ben's job. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that writers tend to gloss over because of time constraints.
    • As for Karen getting an office instead of a cubicle, that's probably more a technical thing the writers did so that she could have one-on-one scenes where she could discuss important matters with another character that they don't want others to overhear, without the other character always having to preface the conversations with "Can we find a place to talk in private?" I mean, let's remember that back in "Kinbaku" when Karen approached Ellison to ask for access to the Bulletin archives, she had to get Ellison to stop what he was doing and go with her into the archive room proper so she could outline to him what she was trying to find.

Karen, why aren't you taking notes?

• One thing about Karen's visit to Colonel Schoonover bothers me. Especially if the colonel was her only source for her story on Frank, shouldn't she be carrying a tape recorder of some kind with her? Or at the very least diligently taking notes as he spoke rather than casually looking at photos?

Fake ESU team?

• One bit about the whole standoff in "Condemned" is complicated. It's that after Matt wipes out the ESU cops that corners him and Vladimir in the tunnel, he says "There are five more coming. All working for Fisk. Probably not even real cops." Was Matt implying that some or all of the ESU team that entered that building weren't actually cops but just Fisk henchmen disguised as cops?
  • Fisk certainly has a lot of real cops on his payroll for sure. But it would boost his numbers to have fake cops as well. And in the case of taking out Vladimir, it would be very easy to slip phony cops onto an ESU team, since ESU officers wear tactical gear that is all about anonymity: helmet, balaclavas and goggles (when all of that is on, the only visible part of the face that can be seen is the nose). There's a risk here of course, but we'll assume Fisk has NYPD supervisors like Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains in his pocket, such so that for the night of the bombings, he could have it arranged that an ESU team that would normally have eight men, might have three dirty ones, and they help make sure five non-cops are allowed to ride along in the truck to make sure everything went according to plan. The five non-corrupt cops are then told plausible lies like "these guys are on loan from another Emergency Service Unit Squad" (which wouldn't be hard to do because as the NYPD has over 35,000 officers, no cop could realistically expect to know the face of each and every one of their colleagues).
    • It makes more sense that the entire ESU team is made of imposters. The "ESU team" at the standoff may be the same people as the mercenaries who shot it out with the NYPD and FBI in the highway ambush. The number of crooked cops on Fisk's payroll is certainly plenty, but also is probably not much larger than what we see in Cottonmouth's operation. Because having cops on your payroll is one thing, but have too many on the take and you run the risk of someone talking.
  • Some Fridge Horror here: We don't know how deep the Fisk-associated corruption in the NYPD goes. All we know for certain is that it's way deeper than the Cottonmouth-associated police corruption in Luke Cage (2016). Cottonmouth had just Rafael Scarfe, Scarfe's shift lieutenant, a property sergeant and maybe a few beat cops (as the dialogue when Luke and Claire are trying to get a dying Scarfe to One Police Plaza suggests). While that was ample for Cottonmouth, he didn't have IAB officers in his pocket leaving his cops and his organization open to scrutiny. Fisk, on the other hand, had about half of the 15th precinct in his pocket, plus cops in IAB, ESU, and even the FBI. It could be likely that the Fisk corruption goes so deep that Brett and every other honest cop there knew about it all along, and taken a policy of "ask no questions", like non-cops being placed in an ESU team. These are cops that were probably in similar dilemmas to what Fisk was subjecting Ray Nadeem and his FBI colleagues to in season 3.

Reyes participating in the Grotto sting

• I get Reyes is trying to cover her tracks and everything, but why is she playing such an integral role in special police operations like setting up Grotto as Punisher bait? The district attorney might have knowledge of such an operation, but they wouldn't be in charge of carrying it out. It would be the NYPD coordinating the operation and carrying it out, and the ESU team would be taking their orders from a Sergeant or a Lieutenant. Hell, I have to ask why the Detectives assigned to the Punisher crimes aren't present? I really don't think the District Attorney for Manhattan would be the one giving the go-ahead.
  • After Reyes is killed, Blake Tower approaches Foggy and Karen and tells them that Reyes had been frantically covering for herself for a long time ever since the botched sting, and was getting sloppier in doing so. Getting Frank Castle was her ticket out of trouble, so it suggests that she pulled out all the strings she still had to get him, and get credit for it.

Matt's reading of Grotto

• Matt is appropriately shocked when Frank Castle gets Grotto to admit that he killed people on his boss's orders. Meaning Grotto had been lying when Matt, Foggy and Karen first met him at Josie's in "Bang" in regards to what his role in that crew was. Given Matt's ability to read heartbeats, how come he wasn't able to tell that Grotto wasn't being truthful during the meeting?
  • On the rooftop, Frank says to Grotto that "you were doing a lot more than that a couple months ago..." So Grotto can say with honesty he's skirting the surface in the present. Additionally, Grotto himself seems to believe he had no choice, and given it seemed to be a one-time thing, it's reasonable to assume he sees himself as a bottom-feeder who caught a bad break. Basically Believing Their Own Lies combined with From a Certain Point of View.
  • Well he listens to heartbeats. Grotto being shot and on an adrenaline rush might make him hard to read. And Grotto might not even remember the nasty stuff he did because he was too busy with the whole not dying thing.
• How did Matt not notice Grotto was bleeding until he collapsed and Karen pointed it out?

Wesley never researched Karen?

• As outlined on Fridge Brilliance, the reason Karen was able to kill Wesley was because he greatly underestimated her. That he thought she could be swayed by threats. That he thought she couldn't tell the difference between a loaded handgun and an empty one. But it makes me wonder, why didn't he ever start a file on Karen? We know that Fisk made him do files on Matt and Foggy, which is why he already has intricate knowledge of their education and internships when he shows up to hire them on the Healy case. But he recognized Karen ("I'm curious about your...clientele. Do they all end up working for you after you get them off for murder or just the pretty ones?"). I would think that, given Karen is now working for the very guys Fisk had tasked him with researching, he would consider having her subject to the same level of scrutiny. Given how Ben Urich easily uncovered evidence of Karen's skeletons from Fagan Corners^note In the first diner rendezvous with Karen in "In the Blood", Ben suggests that Karen may not be a credible source, and she doesn't disagree with him when he says "I did some digging into your...past activities", you would think someone as competent as Wesley ought to be able to find the same things.
  • Most likely, he didn't care to look. Ben Urich needed a credible source, thus her past and character would naturally be a factor in that. To Wesley, she's simply someone worth more spreading good press about his boss than in a body bag. What may or may not have happened in her past is of no consequence to him...or so he thinks.
  • It makes more sense once you find out what the skeletons in her closet are. There's nothing on record about her past that would indicate she'd be willing to shoot him.
  • While Wesley may have made the mistake of not looking into what Karen did before she came to New York, the guy who got promoted to replace him didn't. In between seasons 1 and 3, Felix Manning was able to dig up a lot of information on what happened in Fagan Corners, which he used to threaten Karen when she tried to ask him questions at his official day job (and it's likely, had the season lasted longer, Fisk would've maybe eventually threatened to have Karen's dad killed).

"I'm Daredevil"

• Obviously, The Defenders (2017) will probably follow up on this, but in the meantime, I ask, why would Matt disclose his Secret Identity to Karen?
  • Probably one of the first and obvious reasons is that Matt has hit Rock Bottom. Stick left, Elektra has died (as far as he knows), Frank Castle has gone in the wind, Foggy has moved onto a new firm, Nelson & Murdock is in ruins. There's nowhere to go but up and perhaps telling Karen the secret was Matt's way of taking some load off his shoulders.
  • As listed under Fridge Horror, the breakdown of Matt's relationships with Foggy and Karen over the course of season 2 was a thesis to everything Stick had stated about the futility of balancing a normal human life with the life of a warrior. A large part of why Matt thought he tended to get under his skin, might have been because deep down he actually believed Stick. When Stick said "they'll suffer and you'll die," his words became more and more true, and Matt had slowly grown to accept it. By the end of season 2, when Matt saw what was happening to his friends, how hopeless it had been to try and fight Wilson Fisk in the humane way, trying to use the corrupt legal system to his favor, Matt saw it was hopeless and he was willing to abandon it all. Elektra had offered him a larger taste of that side of him, and that created an imbalance that isolated him from his friends. Matt could have realized with the benefit of hindsight the need for support, comfort, friendship, and love from people like Foggy and Karen, especially Karen, as she supported him when he went through rough patches (like when she hugged him while he was trying to put his head around what he "saw" in Madame Gao's drug lab).
  • Matt probably knew that Karen not being in the loop about him being Daredevil had greatly strained Nelson & Murdock's working relationships, as well as the budding romantic relationship he'd just started with Karen when Elektra first returned. Foggy's initial excuse for Matt's injuries was that he had a drinking problem. But in "Dogs to a Gunfight," Karen made clear that she didn't buy Foggy's cover stories when she visited Matt while he was recuperating from getting shot ("How many times can I hear that you 'fell down the stairs' or you 'walked into a door'?"). Then there was the matter of her finding Elektra in Matt's bed and thinking he was cheating on her, and him not being able to get a cover story. So Matt could be disclosing that he's Daredevil for the sake of getting Karen to trust him again, and explain all of his injuries and unusual behavior (Karen had told Matt in that same conversation that she'd be there for him if he ever decided to admit what was going on with him). Considering how nervous Matt is when he says "I have something that I need you to see" before showing Karen the mask, it's pretty clear that he has set his sights 100% on her now that Elektra is not around to meddle, and that he is willing to fight to get her back.
  • On the subject of romance, Matt probably always had feelings for Karen even when he was with Elektra, and realized he had deluded himself about Elektra once she died. The show made pretty clear from the start that Elektra was going to be a bad influence on Matt. The only reason he was chasing after her and teaming up with her, was because she was like him: a vigilante that was equally skilled, who also got training from Stick. She hurt him in more ways than one (Elektra fucked up the Frank Castle trial by intimidating the witness that would've been Matt's best chance at a mistrial; she tried to get him to kill Roscoe Sweeney and seemed aroused watching him beat the guy up), and lied to him many times (he even called her on it for lying about her penthouse actually being hers), but because of Matt's own masochistic tendencies, he was willing to accept her regardless, and try to reach for the good in her and get her to be good, even though things would just fundamentally never work out between them. Matt knew that Elektra was dangerous and not good for him, and that she hurt his personal and professional lives, but was willing to put up with it because he was sort of trapped by what he thought was his love for her (recall Karen's and Frank Castle's diner conversation and Frank's description of his marriage).
  • Matt could be admitting his identity because he thinks Karen will probably accept the news a lot better than Foggy did. A careful viewer will notice that Foggy has no connections to Matt's night life, other than the times he found Matt beaten up or bleeding out from a fight. Foggy's only real insight into Daredevil is what gets reported in the media (as well as the fact that Foggy probably had less trust in Matt after learning his best friend had lied to him for five years). Karen, on the other hand, has connections to Matt and connections to Daredevil: he saved her life from Rance when she was recovering the Union Allied pension fund, and saved her from the Hand. From the look on Karen's face when Matt produces the mask, it looks like she's processing her encounters with Daredevil and processing that the guy who saved her from Rance and the Hand, the guy the news said defeated Wilson Fisk in a fistfight, is the same guy who kissed her in the rain after the Punisher was caught, who encouraged her to dig into the truth about Frank Castle....
  • Matt knows that Karen seems to better understand Daredevil than Foggy does. In the "What is it, to be a hero?" Bulletin article that we see her typing right before the reveal. It has several lines that seem to describe the position Matt (and by extension Daredevil) has in Karen's life: "Because a hero isn't someone who lives above us, keeping us safe. A hero's not a god or an idea. A hero lives here on the street, among us, with us." Because Matt had saved Karen from death on at least two prior occasions, it probably struck Matt that revealing his identity to her was a way of saying, "I am one of those heroes you described in that Bulletin piece."

Brett could've prevented the Hand hostage situation, could he?

• So we know that The Hand's people attacked Brett and threatened him into giving up files on people Daredevil had saved. Question: why didn't he immediately get officers dispatched to these peoples' addresses to move them to safe locations? Brett is a Sergeant in the NYPD chain of command, so he ought to have the authority to dispatch some of his manpower even with all the bodies being dropped by the Punisher mess.
  • Most likely because he feels he's out of his league and has a mother to worry about. For all he knows, they could have eyes and ears watching him right then. It's also possible he tried, off-screen, but they were either incapacitated or dead. The Hand have been shown to make good on their threats, as seen in The Defenders with Cole, who got killed for speaking to Luke.

Vanessa and Fisk

• So I finished watching season one, and since I don't see this question anywhere here I assume it's obvious to most people, but I just don't understand why it only took 2 dates, one of which was very awkwardly interrupted, for Vanessa to fall in love with Fisk. From what I understood, she figured he was some kind of a criminal at the end of the first date, and she even brought a gun to their second date...why did she even agree to a second date in the first place? Was she afraid Fisk wouldn't take no for an answer and hurt her, or was she honestly OK dating a criminal? Why did she become, apparently, in love with him, despite Fisk pretty much confirming he's responsible for the explosions and fires they could literally see out the window? Again, was she genuinely in love, was she pretending in order to appease him so he wouldn't hurt her, or was she in denial? Or was it something else entirely and I just misunderstood their relationship? I just can't figure it out.
  • She also said she was glad that the explosions targeted the guys who kidnapped children, and while she did brought a gun for security since she still doesn't know Fisk that well, there is a reason she accepted the first date to begin with. Namely, Fisk flirted with her at the art gallery a few times, and while she isn't so blindly in love she'll meet him again without something to defend herself from, either Fisk or an intruder that this time is armed. It's clear Vanessa loves Fisk and is not necessarily a nice person herself, so the criminal life doesn't turn her off that much. This is made much clearer in season 3 when she gets back to New York, when she convinces Fisk to let her in on the action and she is the one who orders that Ray Nadeem be killed.
  • When we're introduced to Vanessa in season 1, she is an art critic and gallery owner, who spends her days reviewing, analyzing, and interpreting works of art. Vanessa sees Fisk as a reserved man with a tortured soul and a vision. In other words, she sees him as an artist, and the city his canvas—or better yet, clay—to shape, sculpt, and mold to reflect that vision. When Fisk blows up the Russians on their second date, Vanessa says the right things (to an extent...), but doesn't display the right reaction (which would be to cower in fear). She stares out at the burning skyline of Hell's Kitchen with a certain amount of awe, knowing she's about to watch an artist create his pièce de résistance. Put it another way: Vanessa is a character who sees everything, including morality, as subjective, and for whom vision can be worth just as much as the process or finished product. (She even says something along these lines regarding Rabbit in a Snowstorm— "How can we charge so much for what amounts to gradations of white? ...It's not even about the art itself...all that matters is, 'how does it make you feel?'") Fisk's desire to recreate the city into a place of security and prosperity matters just as much to her as—if not more than—his methods or motives.
    • Now that's the Vanessa we have in season 1: the art critic witnessing Fisk reshape the city in his vision. By season 3, things are different. She is a piece in Fisk's collection. A beloved one, surely, but still, Fisk regards her like a curated object, being moved from place to place—gallery to gallery—as he sees fit. When they're finally reunited, it's not exactly some newfound ruthlessness that has her order Nadeem's execution; she outright admits that she's never been innocent. Rather, she wants not only to reclaim her agency, but to become an artist too—an active participant alongside Fisk. To quote her: "I don't want to admire your world. I was to live inside of it with you." The ruthlessness and brutality is just a side effect of the "art" they create together.

Matt and Karen are hypocrites.

• Matt is a lawyer so he is supposed to believe in the law. So why does he go out his way to stop Frank from getting the death penalty? He's not saving a innocent man's life, he's stopping the justice system from working. Even if Reyes is pushing extra hard for death, Frank still went before a jury of his peers and was found guilty. It's not like he didn't do and doesn't deserve the death penalty.
  • Because defending Frank Castle is the right thing to do. It's also the responsible thing to do as a defense attorney who cares about his job. And because Frank is a human being and shouldn't have to die, which is exactly what will happen if he doesn't get a proper defense. Because Matt believes everyone in this country has the right to have good legal representation, whether that someone is a guilty-as-sin guy like Frank Castle, or a lowly Union Allied secretary like Karen. You have to remember that his incompetent public defender was going to allow Frank to go to death row, which to Matt is an insult to everything the legal system stands for.
  • Not true, Matt has been refusing plenty of clients because he knew they were guilty with their heartbeats. Foggy even calls him out on how they should treat clients as innocent until proven guilty instead of his "gut feeling". He even defended Healy only so he could beat him up for info which lead to his death because that is what happens when you rat out.
    • Matt made clear he did not like defending Healy, but he acknowledged to Foggy that it was for the best. As for what happened after Healy got off, well, Healy put himself into his situation by choosing to work for Wilson Fisk. Matt was visibly shocked when Healy impaled himself on that fence spike, which makes pretty clear that Matt didn't see that coming.
    • Because Frank didn't put himself in that situation? Even Frank admits that they better not miss him when they come back for revenge because yes what he is doing is asking for a violent death. And it doesn't matter if Matt likes it or not he only did it so he could get intel on Fisk otherwise he would have turned down the case like every other where he knew people were guilty. The only reason he wants to protect the Punisher is because he develops kinship over their vigilantism otherwise he is just another mass murderer that Matt would have beaten up in the streets if he was able to escape prison.
    • When it comes to Frank Castle, they know exactly what will happen to him if he doesn't get a proper defense. What they were doing was getting him a way off of death row, which, if you remember, Frank's incompetent public defender was allowing, which again is a slap in the face to everything the law profession stands for. Plus, saving a life, regardless of how difficult the circumstances or the personal feelings involved, is one of the most virtuous and selfless actions there is, so when it comes to defending Frank, Matt has a moral and ethical obligation to do so as a hero, a lawyer, and a decent human being, and by extension so does Foggy, and the trial showed they not only could properly defend Frank, but they did. I mean, Jeri Hogarth was impressed enough by Foggy's work that she decided to bring him on at her firm.
    • While Matt did have self-interest in the Healy case, it was not Matt's sole motivation. He made clear he did not like helping Healy, but acknowledged that it was for the best, and that they might as well take the money Wesley was offering them so they'd be able to pay their own bills and Karen's salary (it did look like Matt had to swallow his pride a bit for that and accept that "yeah, we might just have to take a few guilty-but-billable clients just to make sure Nelson & Murdock has a bit of a financial cushion").

Defending Frank, at the cost of other prosecutions

• One thing that bugs me about Matt and Foggy's planned defense strategy against Frank Castle: the strategy involves trying to use the trial and the court system to expose Reyes for her role in the cover-up of Frank's family. But I keep thinking, surely they had to consider that there might be consequences stretching beyond the trial if they succeeded, like, casting doubt on every criminal trial that Reyes had prosecuted and causing lots of criminals to have grounds to appeal their sentences (especially if, hypothetically, Wilson Fisk was one of those that Reyes had prosecuted)?
  • Yes but even with an appeal Fisk and most guilty as sin criminal will still go back to jail, they won't be able to find Reyes tampering if there isn't any and if there is well they just freed someone who was unjustly put behind bars, which is a good thing to do. It's probably gonna be worse now since Reyes is dead and her deals are gonna go public one way or another without her covering it and now she can't say which she didn't have a hand in it.

Melvin and his lovely toys

• How does Melvin Potter afford the stuff he uses to tailor Matt's armor and whatnot, now that Fisk is in jail?
  • He mentions in "Penny and Dime" that he also did side jobs for lots of other shady people besides Fisk until he stopped, out of principle. Since Matt is his only client, and only needs a billyclub and a suit, Melvin can afford the resources with his saved money. Plus he probably does have a day job that gives him access to the materials since the workshop belongs to him.

Karen's visit to Colonel Schoonover

• Two questions surround Karen's visit to Colonel Schoonover: one is, Schoonover was the one who killed off Reyes, Tepper, etc., and tried to shoot at Karen in her apartment. Now Karen has come right to his door. Was he always planning to kill her all along, or did he only change his mind and decide to try to kill her once she recognized the soldier in the photograph as one of the bodies she saw getting zipped up at the docks? The other is, how would things have gone if Karen had been savvy and say, brought Matt along as an escort?
  • To answer the first question: Schoonover was definitely gunning for Karen. The original attempt, shooting at her in her apartment, was an attempt to make it look like Frank did it. The idea was that Frank would be blamed for the crimes and the police would shoot him on sight if they saw him. The second attempt was the diner shootout. Remember that Frank lured those two men there by using Karen as bait. They were there for Karen, not for Frank. When Karen showed up at the Colonel's home, he probably wasn't going to try to kill her at first, as that objective would have been harder to achieve. Because for one, he had no idea who else knew Karen was there or how much she did know. Two, he thinks Frank was killed in the boat explosion. And third, shooting someone in the city is a lot easier to get away with than killing them at (or near) your very rural house. Upon seeing that she recognized Gosnell (she stopped mid-speech and her body language changed), Schoonover basically called an audible.
  • To answer the second question: if Matt had come along, would he have gone as Daredevil or as Matt Murdock? Because those would be two completely different scenarios.
    • The first scenario is that Matt would have asked Karen if he could come with her. If she refused, Matt would have gone as Daredevil and he would have waited outside the house just in case something went wrong.
    • The other scenario, Matt going in civilian attire, would have raised a lot of questions and probably would get very messy. Schoonover would obviously find it odd that one of the lawyers who defended Frank wants to know more about Frank's military history. Furthermore, Matt definitely would have become super protective, which would likely annoy the shit out of Karen considering they were in such a weird place at the time. But Matt basically goes into Super Protective Mode whenever he’s around Karen, so it would be par for the course for him. Matt would have known that Schoonover was full of it a lot sooner than Karen picked up on it. At which point he would either try to get Karen out of there as soon as possible, or, if that didn't work, get all protective towards Karen knowing things were going to get ugly. Schoonover would still have made a move, thinking he has the advantage over a blind man and a girl. Matt would have to use his skills to overpower Schoonover, then have Karen call the police and they keep him there until the cops arrive to arrest him. The reason this scenario is "messy" is because now Schoonover knows about Matt's identities, and once in jail, his story might get back to Fisk. Also, Matt would have to reveal his secret to Karen, since it would have been difficult to be Matt Murdock and fight off somebody with a gun without arousing serious suspicion. This means that Karen would have found that Matt is Daredevil in the most stressful way possible, and this would make things harder between them.
    • If Matt had gone with Karen, he would’ve sensed something was off with Schoonover very early on and he would’ve sensed the gun in his pocket. Between her seeing the photo and him sensing that Schoonover was lying, they would have put two and two together pretty quickly. Matt’s secret would definitely be revealed if he had to fight Schoonover to protect Karen (not saying Karen can’t protect herself, obviously). If she found out that he was Daredevil then, she might have been more receptive to the idea or not distance herself from Matt as much as well. But there is the matter of how Matt would be able to be there without drawing suspicion. Karen has a good reason to be there but Matt really doesn’t. At best, Matt could give some legal/lawyer reason, but that would probably have made Schoonover suspicious, in the vein of, "Why is a defense attorney who defended Frank Castle accompanying a reporter who was also on the defense team to an interview?"
      The aftermath of the interview definitely would be much different if Matt was present. It's a fair assumption to make that if Schoonover was okay with killing Karen, he would also be content with killing Matt. This would mean that Matt might have to reveal his superheroics that much sooner. It would really depend on whether Matt or Frank acted first. If Matt acted first, things would go like this: Schoonover pulls a gun, Matt fights Schoonover, beats Schoonover, he and Karen call the police, and Schoonover is arrested, and Frank is out of luck.
      But Matt might not want to reveal his secret until the last possible moment, so it's also possible that Frank would have swooped in to the rescue faster (especially since a few earlier scenes imply that he's figured out that Matt is Daredevil). The main difference, then, is that after Frank crashes the truck into Karen's car, Matt and Karen would've been there to stop Frank from killing Schoonover. If Karen wasn’t able to convince Frank to change his mind, it's unlikely Matt would manage it either, given what happened with Grotto. His only option to keep Schoonover alive would be to fight Frank– and whether he would make that choice for the sake of saving Schoonover is tough to say. It’s a definite possibility. Matt would want Schoonover to have his day in court, after all, and he might decide that protecting his secret identity isn’t worth letting someone die, no matter what that person did. Depending on how injured Matt was at that point, he might beat Frank. Thus, either: 1. Matt beats Frank up, reveals his secret identity to Karen, and Schoonover and Frank get arrested and go to court, or 2. Frank beats Matt up and incapacitates him, Matt reveals his secret identity to Karen, and Schoonover still dies.
    • Matt following Karen to Schoonover’s house would probably result in him coming clean about the Daredevil alter ego in order for them to escape. Not so much "coming clean" as "revealing his abilities in a very pressing situation of life or death". That probably wouldn't be an ideal scenario from a writing standpoint, primarily because Matt would be simply forced to reveal his identity out of fear for their lives. It wouldn’t be a clear and sober choice. Frank’s role would certainly be diminished. Would he just have faced Matt and Karen trying to get to the Blacksmith? Would he have gotten his revenge or not? And Karen finding out that way about Matt’s other business would probably not be beneficial to their relationship, instead making things worse in the long-term aspect. Karen is the only person Matt decided to confide in in regards to his alter ego. And that’s HUGE. In this hypothetical scenario, he would be robbed of that important choice.
    • In an ideal world, that's how a story would work out for the best, but that does not equal a good story. By this point in season 2, Matt and Karen weren't talking to each other and it led them both down different paths. It would be hard to find a way to get Matt to Schoonover's place without it coming off as contrived. Not to mention, Matt's presence would ruin Karen’s part in the whole thing. And it wouldn’t have made sense for Frank to come save Matt, and you need that, for both Frank's and Karen’s development. Schoonover is really just a blip. He’s a character that is necessary for the story, but he isn’t the focal point. He drives the plot because something has to. Matt works far better when he is only protecting Karen from physical harm, such as in Reyes' office, or when Dex goes after her at the church. Harm that if she was by herself she wouldn’t be able to fend off. If Matt had been there from the beginning then that danger would never have been there. You can’t wrap people/characters up in bubble wrap. They need to go through trauma and changes.
  • Matt would have picked up on the fact that Schoonover was lying sooner than Karen did (because of listening to his heartbeat and because he’d be eager to protect Karen). He’d try to push her to leave, but Karen, being Karen, would keep prying. How it would go from there, we don't know, because Matt was in reality very far away. But this would've put Matt in a position where he and Karen were in imminent danger and he’d have the choice of exposing his secret to save her (and himself), similar to his later dilemma in season 3 when he learned Fisk had put a hit out on Karen and had to choose between continuing with his attempt on Fisk (at the cost of Karen) or saving Karen (and risking Fisk beefing up security). Presumably it would lead to Matt fighting off Schoonover and Karen finding out that way. Which would probably drive them further apart because he never actually makes the choice to tell her his secret. OR hypothetically, there'd be a scene where Matt is working on getting Schoonover away from Karen, so that he’s a little way off in the woods, out of sight when he fights Schoonover. And then Frank would show up and kill Schoonover in pretty much the same way it happened in the show, but with a strong question of whether or not Frank saw what Matt had done.

Reyes' security protection

• The NYPD knows that Frank Castle likes to use high power weapon at range, and yet they still leave people standing in the open in front of the courthouse, don't have snipers on the rooftops, have two guards standing in front of Reyes' door, and so on. Literally the worst protection possible given for the kind of attack they were expecting. Why wasn't Reyes moved to a safehouse after word of Frank's escape got out?

Matt telling Karen the truth

• Was Matt planning on telling Karen his secret identity long before the final scene of season 2? Like, if Elektra hadn't shown up, would Matt have told Karen his secret earlier?
  • Almost certainly, yes. I think that what happened in the final scene of season 2 was inevitable from the moment Matt kissed Karen in the rain and asked her out on a date. Karen, who idolizes Matt's alter-ego and also knows that he isn’t just walking into walls and falling down. This fanfic gives a general idea of how things might have gone: once Foggy found out, Matt most likely wanted to tell Karen his secret right away, but didn't because he was afraid she'd be in a bad position legally if the police successfully investigated the Devil of Hell's Kitchen. That, and Wilson Fisk was still an active threat, and Matt knew that Fisk had a reputation of threatening his enemies' loved ones to get them to do their bidding. Once Fisk was arrested, Matt probably felt that things were going to be better and easier. He felt guilty asking Foggy to make excuses to Karen about his injuries, and he also felt that it would be better if he got to tell Karen his secret on his own terms, rather than having it forced upon her like when Foggy learned it. Some of his dialogue, like his telling her that he finds her compassion a good quality in "Penny and Dime," seems like Matt gauging the waters to see how she might react when he tells her his secret. He was set to tell her his secret, but then a bunch of other things happened - Elektra's return, Frank Castle's trial, the Blacksmith, and the Hand - and suddenly, telling Karen his secret is the least of Matt's problems. It wasn't until Elektra died and things settled down that Matt was finally in a place where he could tell Karen his secret. When Matt does tell Karen his secret in the way he ultimately does, I feel like he had been intending to have the conversation with her (or had been trying his best to work up the courage to have it with her) for awhile, because he was both concerned for Karen's safety, and also terrified of how she would react.
  • This is very hypothetical, and could go a few different ways, depending on circumstances. Left to his own devices, it's possible Matt wouldn't have told Karen his secret any time soon. In the show, he only became willing to tell Karen the truth when he’d lost everything. And that doesn’t happen without the whole Elektra/Stick/Hand storyline. Even if, after the study date argument, Elektra disappeared in a puff of smoke, and Matt threw himself whole-heartedly into the rest of the trial, and Matt and Karen did go on another date, losing the trial wouldn’t be enough on its own to drive him to that low point. Similarly, on Karen's end, it took being driven to rock bottom in the back part of season 3 for her to willingly tell Matt her secrets.
    However, in this scenario he would not be left to his own devices. Karen would definitely bring it up at some point, after a few more dates. The fact that she would agree to date Matt at all, when she knows he’s hiding something, and when she's hiding things from him, raises the question of whether or not she was hoping that he would become willing to confide in her once they got closer. And if that doesn’t happen, then she might confront him about it. And by confront, I mean just saying something like, “I need to know what’s going on, you’re too important to me for me to just pretend I don’t see any of this.”
    Because Karen understands about keeping secrets. But she’s worried about Matt, she knows his secret involves him getting injured, and the closer they become, the more determined she would be to find out what’s going on. She never seems to worry much about danger to herself (as scenes like her visit to Fisk in season 3 demonstrate), she's very protective when it comes to the people she cares about getting hurt (considering that after said visit to Fisk, her first instinct was to go warn Matt that Fisk knew he was Daredevil, not realizing Matt already knew that from the prison riot). And Matt keeps getting hurt, and keeps lying to her about it. So she wouldn’t just let that go.
    Of course, if Karen does bring it up, she might realize that maybe she should tell Matt her own secrets. But that’s a whole other question: would she ever make up her mind to come clean with Matt about killing her brother and Wesley without first knowing his secrets? Maybe. She feels guilty already, she might decide that it isn’t fair to Matt to let him love her under false pretenses. And maybe that’s when she would confront him, once she was willing to come clean herself.
    But what then? Whether she tells Matt her secrets or not, would Matt tell her the truth if she asked one more time? From what the show presents, Matt had mostly hidden his enhanced senses from the people he dated (except Elektra, obviously), so deceiving someone he cares about would be second-nature to him. Whatever twinges of conscience he might feel about that, Matt seems to have come to terms with that years ago. And he could tell himself that being Daredevil is a much more dangerous secret, thus more justifiable to keep hidden. Then again, everything we know about Matt's dating history implies that he’s had a bunch of brief relationships, none of which lasted more than a few months. In fact, it wouldn't be a shock if Matt hasn’t really loved anyone since Elektra. So as Matt falls in love with Karen, maybe he would realize that this is something different, that lying to Karen isn’t the same as lying to all those other flings. Maybe he would actually start to feel bad, and want to tell her—either out of guilt, or because he wants her to know him as he truly is. Maybe he would tell her without prompting, some day. But he would hesitate, and put it off, and Karen would most likely bring it up before he would.
    ...or maybe he wouldn’t tell her, even then. He hid this secret from Foggy for about five years, and no one can say Matt doesn’t care about Foggy. It'd be nice if we could think better of him than that, but we'd seen through the entirety of season 1 and the first half of season 2, that Matt thinks he can handle his double life, with all that that entails. It takes disaster to make him acknowledge that he can’t handle it after all. So without that disaster, he might keep on thinking it’s all fine. Or not. Can Catholic guilt plus love overcome hubris?
  • Had chaos not ensued, Matt probably would have told Karen his secret before they went any further romantically, as he realized that dating Karen would eventually mean having sex with her. It's clear from their rain kiss and their makeout scene on Karen's front stoop just how much the two of them want each other. Matt may have turned Karen down the first time, but if the trial and Elektra weren't happening, it would have only been a matter of time before Matt and Karen finally did have sex, whether that be after their next date, their next moment alone, or the next time the wind blew her scent in his direction. So turning her down had a lot to do with the fact that Matt didn’t want to have that conversation with Karen right before they slept together, and also with the whole “what’s with all the scars?” question Karen would inevitably ask.
  • Even if Elektra didn't show up at all, Karen and Matt had a lot of problems already insofar as building a stable relationship. Elektra was certainly a catalyst for the breakup, but Matt and Karen's relationship wouldn’t have lasted if they hadn’t been open and honest with each other. Their problems happened way before Elektra ever came into the picture.
    • For his part, Matt is a naturally closed off person, and his relationship with Karen in season 2 was in its infancy stages. Matt’s problem with letting Karen in doesn’t fully stem from Elektra’s influence. It's more because up until that point, Matt never actually made the choice to tell anyone about Daredevil. Foggy and Claire found out through finding him beaten half to death, while Father Lantom and Elektra figured it out on their own.^note Although with regards to Matt's abilities, Elektra learned about those from Stick One could say that Matt and Karen's issues were "the mirror problem": they both love how the other person thinks of them. They love their reflection in the other person’s eyes, but that picture is a distortion. That’s not conductive to a long-term relationship.
    • And Karen has the same problem as Matt insofar as her secret-keeping. While she is bubbly and more emotionally sane than Matt is, she is still just as closed off. Until season 3, she doesn’t tell anyone about her past. Ben (and Ellison) found out about her past through due diligence and research. She told Foggy and Fisk about Wesley because she had to. When she told Matt about this while they hid from Dex in the church basement (and also about her brother), she didn’t have to, she chose to, and much like Matt coming clean with her about his secrets at the end of season 2, it was at a moment when Karen was at rock bottom (she'd burned her journalism career to the ground by refusing to give Matt up to Ellison, Dex had killed a bunch of Karen's coworkers to get to Jasper Evans, and she'd made herself a target of Fisk by provoking him with the details of Wesley's death, and indirectly gotten Father Lantom killed). As her lawyer, Foggy would have had to keep his mouth shut, and it's unlikely Fisk would have said something either.
  • Matt not telling Karen about Daredevil in the actual continuity is because he actively chooses to needlessly suffer, emotionally and planning wise, to “protect Karen”. When the reality is that he's just protecting himself. Matt wants to keep Karen in the light, and away from his “darkness”, much like we see Ray Nadeem doing with his family in season 3. He feels shame for his addiction to violence, and does not want to be judged. The problem is the world doesn’t exist in light and dark, it exists in gray, or whatever the middle between light and dark is. He feels it’s the heroic/good thing to do, which is why he'd rather engage in Batman-style secret identity BS than just be upfront with people. His superiority complex is so sanctimonious that it physically hurts. To some degree, it also seems that Matt may have seen Karen more as an object he was trying to “protect”, rather than as a real human being. He knows that all humans are at least semi-twisted, but he chooses to essentially dehumanize Karen to keep his twisted idea of her innocence. Because if she can be the picture book of innocence and goodness, then maybe one day he can be too. That’s not only unhealthy, but a little gross. Matt is a good man, but he has a lot of terrible personality traits. So it's possible that it would've taken Matt being driven to a low like the one we saw him in at the end of season 2 or the start of season 3, for him to come clean with Karen.

How does Karen never figure out Matt is Daredevil?

• Seriously, Father Lantom figured it like halfway through the first season. Karen has had multiple encounters with Daredevil. Matt's excuses were clearly lies, which she had even acknowledged in the beginning of season 2. Matt has left multiple hints that he can sense where she is. It's not really that big of a problem, but it kinda undermines Karen's "reporter in training" story. Any good reporter would've caught onto Matt's behavior, and at the very least established a theory of Daredevil's identity. Hell, I'm convinced that Ben Urich had an idea who Matt was as well.
  • The biggest protection Matt has with regards to his secret identity is his blindness. Anyone would ask, "How could a blind man jump off rooftops and do ninjitsu? Do all the crazy shit Daredevil can do? It's impossible." If you knew someone who was blind, would they be your first suspect for a costumed vigilante? That would be the least rational conclusion a sane person could come to to explain anyone's odd behavior, especially if they were disabled.
  • Matt is a blind lawyer. Yes, you can't fault some viewers for thinking "It's so obvious he's Daredevil" because we see into his personal life and the entire story contains five or six main characters. Of course to us it seems like the most obvious thing, because we are watching a show that disproportionately represents the lives of six people in New York City. In real life, there are people who can, and often do, spend years in a committed long-term relationship with a lover or family member, only to discover they are a drug addict, or leading a double life, or having an affair. Karen suspecting that her visually impaired boss is Daredevil, despite everything, would be such a strange thing to deduce for the average person, amateur sleuth or not. It's probably one of the greatest covers imagined in comics writing.
  • Karen knows something is up. She doesn't believe Foggy's story all that much either, it seems. The exchange between her and Matt about "Well, you know that I'm blind" / "And you know that I'm not an idiot" implies as much. But she then says, "Okay, um, let's say this: when or if you ever feel like you can tell me what's going on with you, I promise that I'm here. Is that a deal?" Karen doesn't want to "figure it out." She wants to be trusted and told, to be let into Matt's life. So when she sees the weird shit, like Stick in Matt's apartment and Elektra in his bed, she just tunes it out. She's already pretty much hating him and dismissing him at that point, also. It is odd (and done as a bit of a convenience for the season 2 plot), but it's written into the show in a way that makes sense. Karen also doesn't know that the two situations are in any way related and has zero indication that Matt is this super-athletic person. There's enough evidence to suggest that the show could go with the "I've known that for some time now" angle when the show opens back up. She sure has noticed some things this season, like Foggy freaking out witnessing the Daredevil vs. Punisher fight when the Grotto sting went south; there's that whole "he's the kind of person who hurts people" line/conversation with Frank at the diner scene. So Karen might know. The show has have enough laid out to go that route, but she still wants to be told, regardless.
  • It isn't exactly established in the show, but it seems that Karen unconsciously knew it, but didn't want to believe it, so she kept forcing herself to believe the alcoholic story that Foggy was spewing to her. Remember what Jessica Jones said to that guy when he threatened to expose her powers: "Do I look like I'm hiding? No. You wanna know why? Because no one wants to know. They'd rather feel safe. They'd rather call you crazy than admit I can lift this car, or that I can melt your insides with my laser eyes." The same logic is applicable with Karen regarding Matt's secrets: she'd rather believe Foggy's claims that Matt is a blind alcoholic who gets a bunch of cuts and bruises because he falls down a lot, rather than admit that Matt is secretly fighting crime at night while somehow having pseudo-vision.
  • She certainly recognized Matt when he rescued her and the Hand's other hostages. I mean, she knows Matt pretty well, and has even gotten intimate with him, so she ought to be acquainted with Matt's chinline, mouth, and voice.
    • Plus, while the blind man alibi is pretty great, the coincidences were just becoming a bit too convenient, in terms of Karen to Daredevil to Matt interactions. Plus, once you put aside the fact that Matt is blind (even for a second), the connections should be so painstakingly obvious. When Matt asked Father Lantom if he knew who Matt really was, Father Lantom said, "Yes Matthew, I know who you are. How you do it, that's an entirely different question." Which sort of proves how easy it is to discover Matt's night job if you try hard enough to ignore the actual logistics of his job.
    • Apart from those who openly know he's Daredevil, Father Lantom is the person Matt has spoken to most candidly about his vigilantism. In the pilot, he asks for forgiveness for what he's "about to do". He turns up a few days later with bruises on his face, and Father Lantom points out that he knows he's the son of Jack Murdock, a boxer who refused to back down from a fight (though this is somewhat retconned in season 3, which shows Father Lantom knew Matt in his teenage years). Father Lantom clearly knows Matt got in some sort of fight that he probably instigated, based on these two interactions. Before going to confront Fisk, Matt tries to have Father Lantom justify killing 'the devil who is destroying the city' in order to prevent him hurting anyone else. While Fisk's name wasn't mentioned as far as can be recalled, when Daredevil takes down Fisk, who is revealed to have been the cause of so many horrible things in the city, Father Lantom likely made the final leap to connect Matt's various allusions to violence, vengeance and justice with the activities of the Devil of Hell's Kitchen.
  • If Karen does know, her behavior seems very unusual for someone that knows who Daredevil. If she's so upset, why doesn't she ever mention it? Why does she still look up to Daredevil, after breaking it off with Matt? Why is she confused as to why Foggy and Matt don't get along anymore? Why even go to Foggy with her concerns, when she knows Matt is the real problem? For someone that knows his identity, Karen does a terrible job understanding the complexities of Daredevil's personal life. If she knew, she would have said, or at least subtly mentioned, to Foggy, Matt, or maybe even Frank about what she thinks.
  • The dialogue between Matt and Karen at the diner in the first episode of The Defenders (2017) implies that Karen didn't know for certain that Matt was Daredevil until he told her his secret in the last scene. It's more likely that she subconsciously knew it, but she didn't "know it" knew it. This is the writers on Daredevil using a clever writing "trick", to have this really smart, really inquisitive character not know something that was right in front of her all along. Karen's inquisitive nature for things outside of her job coupled with the Foggy-Matt tension and the romantic tension Karen had with Matt kind of blinded her to really "seeing" Matt was Daredevil. Subconsciously she knew it, but it never really dawned on her until he verbally confirmed it. We see something similar with Ray Nadeem in season 3, where he doesn't recognize Dex's voice on the video of him killing Jasper Evans until Matt informs him that the fake Daredevil is an FBI agent.

What if it had been Matt...

• What if, instead of Frank, it had been Matt who showed up at Karen's apartment and shielded her from the bullets when the Blacksmith's men shot up the place? How differently would the rest of the season have gone?
  • The Hand's attack on the hospital was happening at the time that Karen's apartment got shot up. If Matt wasn't busy dealing with the former, he absolutely would have protected Karen. Remember he clearly panicked at the fact that he wasn't there to protect Karen because he was busy dealing with the hospital attack.
  • Karen would certainly have been a lot more receptive to Matt’s help if it had in fact been him who had come to her apartment (that blind human shield Matt Murdock saved her life twice in one day would do that), and they'd have tag-teamed her investigation into the Blacksmith from there on out, with Karen letting him in on what she had learned. There would be some drawbacks, though: Matt wouldn't have been guarding the hospital if he were protecting Karen. Thus, he likely would be beating himself up (even more than he usually does) for not managing to be in two places at once (because, of course he would think that). And that would have been an extremely ugly scene at the hospital, with there likely being more casualties due to Matt not being there. This would greatly affect Luke Cage and Iron Fist, as Claire would probably take a more negative view of vigilantism when around Luke and Danny, due to Matt being too busy saving Karen to deal with protecting the hospital.
  • Matt would have been able to detect the shooter outside Karen’s apartment faster than Frank, and she also would have been much more willing to leave with him, so he might have managed to get her out of there quickly, without doing anything blatantly superheroic. But it’s much more fun to imagine him having to flying tackle her yet again. Twice in one day would also be more than enough to prompt her to ask about it afterward.
  • The biggest effect would be that Karen wouldn't become as close with Frank. That moment is instrumental in cementing her trust in Frank (that is, until he uses her as bait in the next episode). Swapping him out for Matt would tip the trajectory of the Punisher arc away from Karen, and could potentially inhibit Frank’s ability to be successful or maybe just send him on another killing spree. Then there's the matter of whether Matt comes as himself or as Daredevil, because that makes a difference in how his relationship with Karen would be changed.
    • If Matt comes in the suit, there wouldn't be much effect on his relationship with Karen at all. She knows Daredevil is a hero, knows he’ll save her if she’s in trouble and he knows about it. It wouldn’t really add any new understanding to their dynamic. Though if he used moves similar to when he shielded her in Reyes' office, she might put two and two together about Matt being Daredevil.
    • If Matt showed up out of costume and saved her, it could go down one of two ways: either Matt does something to a degree that he reveals that he is Daredevil, or at least, really not what he seems. In this case the secret comes out sooner and probably much more explosively because it wasn’t really Matt choosing to tell Karen. So their relationship becomes much more prominent in those ending scenes. Karen is less likely to be taken by the Hand because she’s probably more aware of what’s going on. But being shielded from bullets twice by Matt in the course of a day might be enough to get her to trust him again.

The Blacksmith's endgame

• OK, after Frank breaks out of prison, what incentive does the Blacksmith have for murdering Reyes, Tepper, and attempting to kill Karen? It's not like the police aren't already aggressively looking for Frank. You could argue that possibly the ME and Reyes were more involved with the Blacksmith than was made apparent, but then why Karen? If it was to get at Frank, that seems like an awfully poor way to get at him.
  • Why is Karen being targeted? Well, Ellison tells her in one scene that he's getting calls from certain individuals asking where he's getting his information, meaning she's rattling their cages and causing them to fear she'll find out about their secrets.

Question about the diner shooting

• So, Frank warns Karen when the Blacksmith's men show up to hide in the kitchen. Karen goes behind the counter and the waitress IMMEDIATELY starts walking back into the kitchen with her before Karen even finished opening her mouth. I mean, why doesn't the waitress bat an eye at some random customer coming behind the counter, or at least question it? Instead, Karen just kinda nudges at the kitchen and barely moves her mouth and the waitress is already heading there before Karen can even make the gesture. Just Karen walking behind the counter put the waitress on cue to hide in the kitchen. Had Karen at least shouted, "There's going to be gunfire! Hide!" I might have believed her immediately running to hide instead of questioning it, considering the city they live in and the shit that goes on.

"Hold on with both hands and don't let go"

• The diner scene in ".380" makes for plenty of interpretation. Was Frank telling Karen that it's better to put up with being hurt by someone you love (like Matt) than not have them at all? Or was he telling Karen to understand that pain is inevitable in a relationship as people simply aren't perfect and things won't always be perfect between her and Matt?
  • It seems to be a mix of both. While it'd be one thing to say that the proper interpretation was the latter, the way Frank describes his relationship with his wife doesn't seem particularly healthy, so in Frank's mind it probably was the former. But at the very least, it does look like he is trying to get Karen to see that if she wasn't in love with Matt, she wouldn't be in nearly as much pain. All she'll admit to at this point is having "feelings" for Matt. There's a lot discussed about how Matt and Karen have an awful lot in common, and much like Matt hasn't realized the depths of his feelings for Karen (and only realizes them when the Hand kidnap her and use her as bait), the same is true for Karen.
  • More of the former, "put with being hurt by someone you love." Frank is definitely saying that a painful relationship with someone is better than not having them at all. But it seems that he goes further than that. It feels like he’s saying that the fact that Matt hurts Karen is the reason why she should stay with him, that the pain is in itself proof of how close they are, and that she should welcome it and hold onto it.
    Frank is one of those people who believes that passion is the single most important factor in a romantic relationship. Plenty of people think like this, and I think American culture encourages the idea, in the love stories we tell ourselves, our popular music, etc. The whole idea of romantic love itself is rooted in the primacy of feeling over all other considerations. But it can easily lead to the idea (and sometimes even explicitly states the idea) that strength of emotion is more important than the quality of the emotion, that passion trumps respect, and justifies pain. That intensity of feeling is how you know it’s true love, even if your partner is tearing you apart, which is not really a good belief. The way Frank describes his relationship with his wife is very disturbing, and not in a good way. It sounds terribly unhealthy and damaging. Under the circumstances, since his wife is now dead, it'd be understandable if he said he’d cut his own arm off to have it back again, pain and all. But that isn’t the way he frames it—he never says he loved her despite the pain—he really does sound like he’s making the argument that pain is how you know it’s real. Now, to be fair, we know from Frank’s trial that he’s in a state of constant heightened emotion since his brain injury. His emotional patterns are disturbed by chronic stress. But really that just means that his current views on emotion are not something that anyone should take as serious advice. Karen seems to take the healthy view, when she says that people who hurt you are the ones you don’t hold onto. But Frank disagrees...
    Karen Page: Matt's the kind of man who hurts people. Not like you, but…he damages them. Breaks them.
    Frank Castle: Sorry, is that supposed to mean something?
    Karen Page: So those are the people that you get out of your life.
    Frank Castle: Is that right? Look, I might generally be considered out of my skull, so this might not mean much, but this could be the craziest, most batshit thing I’ve ever heard in my life.
  • ...Really, Frank? You're a mass murderer with several dozen bodies to your kill count, and kicking to the curb people who break you is the craziest thing you’ve ever heard? Sounds more like basic self-preservation, not to mention self-respect, to me. Karen’s not just saying "Matt and I have had our differences," she’s indicting Matt on much stronger terms, and Frank’s response is “So what?” and “You’re nuts!” The one point I will grant to Frank is his whole argument that someone has to be close to you to be able to hurt you that much. In that sense, sure, the pain is evidence of Karen’s feelings for Matt: if she didn’t love him, then none of this would hurt so much. But that’s the most that he's right about. It’s simply not true that love is all you need, not when your partner mistreats you (even if it's unintentional). Matt’s choices have consequences, and Karen is perfectly justified in deciding that a few kisses and some empty words aren’t enough. Because while many viewers want Matt and Karen back together, Karen should not be going back to him for Frank’s reasons. And not until Matt has done the necessary work to make amends for his mistakes. Frank telling Karen to hold on to him as things are at this point is not good advice. Matt acknowledging his mistakes is the first step–telling Karen the truth is the single best choice Matt could possibly make. All his problematic behavior toward her stems from that one big mistake of hiding the truth from her, and by telling her, he’s admitting he was wrong. It doesn’t magically make everything better, but it’s the necessary first step toward things getting better, and it’s the only way there’s any hope of her ever being able to trust him and restart a relationship with him (well, okay, maybe it won’t cure his protectiveness. But I think protecting people is Matt’s love language, he wants to protect anyone he cares about. It’s a thing they’re going to have to address, to build a strong relationship based on respect, but it’s not as bad as all the deception).
    Basically, Frank Castle’s Advice for the Lovelorn is terrible, with maybe one or two grains of truth buried in it. It's understandable that Matt / Karen shippers think it’s so great that even Frank ships them. But he barely knows Karen and he knows Matt even less, and only briefly saw them interacting. Plus he’s filtering what he did see through his own feelings for his family, and the toxic idea that any pain is worth the passion of true love. Karen has more self-respect than that, and should hold out for better.
  • Frank just saw that Karen was doing Wangst Dissonance. She's probably hiding even more than Matt (and not just the act of killing Wesley), has put herself at risk a bunch of times without Matt's fighting skills to save her. She has played with a lot of peoples' feelings and is helping a mass murderer as she speaks in this scene. She's not necessarily a victim of Matt's distancing himself from her. She distances herself as much as Matt does. The only reason why she feels this pain is because Matt has yet to open up to her...yet neither has Karen, and that's because as Frank points out, she loves him. If she wasn't in love with Matt, she would have treated him like she treated Foggy and Ben, where she had no remorse dragging them into her investigation of Union Allied and Wilson Fisk despite their own problems (having to keep Nelson & Murdock afloat and Ben's wife suffering Alzheimer) until they got hurt. Like, what room does she get about Matt not caring about other people's feelings when she disregarded Foggy's and Ben's feelings about the Fisk case, and is being a sorta-accomplice for Frank (she knows he won't shoot her)?
  • And Frank can see that the "pain" in Karen that he saw when she was fleeing the hospital with Grotto, is more like her saying "Matt snores when he sleeps" than actual psychological abuse. Pain and that, if not talking about personal matters right away, is not something Karen wants in a guy. It's gonna be hard because those who do think about her want to know why she keeps leaving without warning and knows how heavy a loaded gun weighs, and she continuously dodges the question.
  • It's a bit of both. Frank is certainly sympathetic to Karen’s situation, but his emotional state throughout the show is ruled by the death of his family. This colors his view of the world, impacts every decision he makes, and acts as his constant priority. He becomes interested in Karen due to her interest in his revenge quest, and then begs her for details about his house. He is willing to align himself with a criminal like Fisk for the sake of acquiring information about the massacre. Even his decision to sit in the diner with Karen and give her dating advice is a calculated move to track down the Blacksmith once and for all, as he's just biding his time until the Blacksmith's men show up. After he comes into his own as the Punisher, he should manage the degree of “the dead don’t feel”-style distance necessary to wage his war, without this chokehold of emotional desperation getting in the way. But as of this point in the show, he’s not there yet. His mission is vengeance, and it’s still an emotionally-charged one. He wants nothing more than to have his family back, faults and all, no matter what, and that shows in his comments to Karen.
  • Frank lives in a world of black and white. Just because you lost them, are you sorry you ever loved them? Keep in mind he's not talking about some sweet fluffy happily ever unrealistic puppy love, he's talking about marriage, and anybody who's been married as long as Frank was knows what it can be like (especially when children are involved) ; the arguments, the reconciliations, the communication failures, the financial issues, arguments over employment and oh so much, but more than anything the sheer amount of compromise and THE WORK INVOLVED. The way Frank talks about it, it doesn't sound abusive, it just sounds like a normal marriage with normal issues. Kinda like Nelson & Murdock. Putting a normal relationship with its ups and downs in such (honestly) melodramatic terms, combined with that underlying loss and grief, is very much in character for him. And he was talking about probably the absolute worst and most painful times of his marriage - which has a lot of potential to be strained given his posting - and then still saying, nope, he'd do anything to have even that moment back with the people he loves than lose them forever.
    • Because not everything is gonna be sugar and flowers. There will be times when both parties are gonna disagree or something or fight about something and that doesn't mean you don't love them, that doesn't mean you have to get away immediately. Frank wanted to tell Karen to keep fighting for that thing she loves even if it hurts. If you know it can work, you will make everything to make it happen.
  • As someone who has lost everything and would give everything to have his family back, troubles and all, it might drive Frank crazy a little to perceive someone "wasting" an opportunity at happiness/a future with someone they love. Like...as he sees it, Matt was still alive to make amends with Karen, if she was open to the idea. Frank doesn't have that option anymore. (Not that Frank is right, per se. It's more Matt that needs to be doing the making amends than Karen, but it's only natural for someone who lost a significant other to look at others who still have theirs with envy and think to themselves, "if only I had the same opportunity as you do now...")
  • There's even a bit of a callback between Frank's diner conversation with Karen, and his war with the Irish: remember how Frank didn't like that Finn Cooley seemed more upset about his money being taken than about his son being killed. So much of Frank's advice and general interactions with other characters are (understandably) informed by the loss and grief over his family. And when he had Matt chained up on that rooftop, he said that his loss/grief gave him clarity. Frank is really big on, what he perceives to be, not wasting time on things that don't matter. Also, not wasting opportunities. Remember what he said about his daughter? "I'll read that book to you tomorrow," not knowing that he didn't have tomorrow.
  • Frank and Karen are both communicating on different channels here: Frank was still reeling from his family's murder, and Karen knew Matt lied to her again and again, and she found Elektra in Matt's bed while they're more or less dating. Frank probably meant it as "you're gonna get hurt anyway because you care about them because it's a relationship." and not Karen's "he constantly lies to me, he doesn't trust me". Of course, at the same time, Karen is actively lying to Matt this whole time, too, and besides seeing Elektra in Matt's bed, she somehow ignored Stick's presence, and when she told Foggy about it she conveniently left out Stick's presence so that Foggy would bash Matt, too. There was a weird pattern to the way she kept hypocritically telling people a specific slant on Matt to garner sympathy. But in the diner scene, she's also talking to Frank and says he doesn't lie to her, when he's in fact lying to her and actively using her as bait, so maybe Karen just doesn't understand relationships at all.
  • This whole "hold on with both hands and don't let go" stuff was meant to be continued on in season 3, when it came to Karen's interactions with Foggy and Sister Maggie as they encouraged her to work with Matt on bringing in Jasper Evans.

"I'm Not Yours to Protect"

• I keep thinking about the "I'm not yours to protect" conversation after Karen's apartment got shot up. And I keep wondering, what if Karen did decide to allow Matt to come along with her into police protection, instead of turning down his offer? How different would the rest of season 2 play out?
  • Right after Karen says "I'm gonna go", immediately Matt responds "I'm coming with you". It's clear that Matt is not making an offer because he feels that he has to. As soon as Brett had reached out to Matt telling him that Karen's apartment had been shot up, he immediately leaves his DD business because he's so concerned for her safety. However, Karen doesn't know that Matt is Daredevil. There's a dramatic irony in this scene: the audience knows that Matt is Daredevil and all the things he's juggling and also has insight into his thoughts a bit (perhaps even more than Matt himself does), but when you look at it from the perspective of Karen, someone who doesn't know his secret, all you've got is this secretive blind guy who seems like he's at the end of his rope giving orders because he's "the boss." Karen is her own person and, given what information she has to work with, she probably thinks she's the more capable one. But I also think that she overestimates her own capabilities somewhat (so does Matt. It's an irritable trait they share, this tendency to rush ahead without a plan). Like, I think Karen's first thought in that scene is, "What exactly do you think you'll be able to do to protect me, Matt?" because he's forgetting that lawyer Matt Murdock isn't supposed to be a fighter or someone capable of "protecting" someone.
  • So what if Karen caved and let Matt come along? Well, Matt absolutely would have stayed by Karen's side until he was absolutely certain that she was safe before going back to dealing with Daredevil stuff. It's likely that Matt would have talked Karen into backing off and might have to admit to her that he's Daredevil because that might be the only thing that'd get her to agree "Okay, I'll back off and lay low until the Blacksmith is caught." Likely, she might have stayed with Matt in police protection instead of going with Frank to the diner, though she still might go to the diner, given Karen doesn't strike me as someone who'd wuss out and agree to stay in hiding because someone wants her dead. Under these circumstances, I also imagine that after the boat explosion, Matt would have met up with Karen to discuss what happened, and he would have accompanied Karen when she went to interview Colonel Schoonover. (Though this raises new questions like, would Stick's men have found Matt in time to warn him that Elektra was on her way to kill Stick before they bled out from the injuries?)
  • If Matt had gone into protective custody with Karen, he would have been forced to choose one of a few options:
    • 1) Sit in a hotel room in silence while she stares daggers at him,
    • 2) Tell Karen that he's Daredevil, and therefore leaves her once he has learned all she knows in order to go after the Blacksmith,
    • 3) Leave (and piss her off more) to go off and find the Blacksmith as Daredevil without telling her, or
    • 4) Follow her and Frank to the diner. We know that Karen's plan was obviously to sneak off with Frank. This would have failed if Matt went with Karen into protective custody, because Matt would never let her be used as bait, and Frank’s methods are far too dangerous/against Matt’s code. If Matt had tried to stop him from killing the Blacksmith, Frank might have just shot him.
    • Whatever the case, Matt and Karen separating is just a plot device to get Karen and Frank together solve the Blacksmith issue while Matt is off chasing after Stick, Elektra and the Hand.
  • The reason the scene goes down the way it does is to pave the way for Matt’s eventual reveal to Karen at the end of the season. Matt gets a little taste of his own medicine here; the tables have turned where all of the sudden, Karen is the one keeping Matt at arm’s length, and he doesn’t like that. You can tell that it hurts Matt so much, that he's being overprotective of Karen that she's starting to push him away to protect herself from him. Remember that the only reason Matt knew Karen's apartment had been shot up is because Brett reached out to him. If Brett didn't contact Matt, Matt never would have even known that Karen had been shot at again (her “would you have answered?” response when Matt asks "why didn't you call me?" means a lot). The outcome of the conversation as it goes is that it finally seems to sink in for Matt that Karen really doesn’t want to have anything to do with him anymore. In fact, it's kinda hilarious as he lets himself slip up a little bit here with his whole “I am coming with you, I will protect you” spiel, as you know Karen’s thinking “What the hell do you think you're going to do to protect me, Matt?” All he wants to do is protect her, but Karen’s just not having it, and he gets desperate enough that he lets himself forget that to her, he’s just Matt Murdock, not Daredevil, and Matt Murdock is not supposed to be capable of protecting people. So this scene went down the way it did to plant the the initial seed in Matt's mind that “hey, maybe this whole ‘pushing Karen away to protect her’ thing isn’t working out so well, because I’m losing her anyway.”
  • Karen says "I'm not yours to protect" to hurt Matt - so that he knows it’s over for now. It’s completely justifiable because he hasn’t been there for her, and why should he only care about her when her life is in danger? How can you feel like you’re “protecting” someone when you don’t even answer their damn phone calls? Matt's whole “I’m going to protect you, Karen” thing is a little bit confusing: He doesn’t say it to Foggy constantly, although that could be because Foggy is the only one in Nelson & Murdock who is not constantly getting into trouble all the time. If it were just his inner dialogue - if he said, to himself or Foggy, "I’m worried about Karen and I really want to make sure she’s safe,” it'd be more understandable. But instead, he has to tell her, “I promised to protect you.” Matt is thinking so highly of himself here.
  • When Matt warns Karen about Frank in 2x07, she takes it much more kindly, almost teasing with the words because she finds the worry sweet – after all, they’re in the honeymoon phase of dating. In terms of the greater narrative though, we the audience know this warning is both hypocritical (for Matt) and unwarranted (for Karen), but mostly the hypocritical part makes Matt’s response about warning anyone else particularly moot even though Karen doesn’t fight against it. After her apartment is shot up, Matt does show up out of care but he also reveals his true self and does what Foggy does – he puts her in a box. And it pisses her off again, making her push-back here another fight against the “damsel” illusion. More than the charge of Karen not being about to take care of herself, though, Matt goes further than Foggy. Foggy talked about her acting weird, but Matt sarcastically charges her with acting smart. Matt also tries to forcefully insert himself as if she needs him around to stay safe. It’s an incredible insult to herself, especially after she’s dumped him from the final straw of thinking he could’ve been cheating on her with Elektra. She doesn’t just hate this perception of his but pushes him more firmly out of her life because of it. There's also the fact that Karen had every intention of going off to meet with Frank, and wouldn't have been able to easily do so if Matt had come along.
  • It is a bit of a plot device that Karen didn't let Matt come with her into protective custody. Had Karen let Matt accompany her, the Frank storyline and his plans with Karen couldn’t have progressed smoothly or happened at all, unless Karen found a way to ultimately ditch Matt. Maybe they would have had a chance to talk a bit more but there probably wouldn't be any real development coming from it unless Matt was willing to tell her his secret identity. (It is kinda funny that Matt keeps saying things like “Don’t worry, Karen, I’ll protect you,” when all Karen knows about him is that he’s a very secretive blind lawyer! Where exactly is he basing his confidence that he can protect her from physical threats anyways?) It's possible that if Matt did tell her his secret identity and explain his abilities, maybe Karen would have agreed to back off and let Matt handle the Blacksmith, as she would know he could handle himself and find out info without anyone risking their lives.
  • Karen was never intending to go into police protection– which is definitely among the myriad reasons she refused to let him come with her. If, theoretically, Matt had insisted, Karen might have snuck away to keep her meeting with Frank anyway, leaving Matt with the cops. Since obviously, it’s tough to actually sneak around Matt, he would likely have followed her, thus leading him into another confrontation with Frank. Maybe Matt and Frank would have managed to put aside their differences for the sake of taking down the Blacksmith that much earlier, ideally leading to a Matt / Karen / Frank team-up and a premature end to that particular plotline. (Still, however, leading to Frank shooting Schoonover. That was probably going to happen no matter what.)
  • If Matt refused to back off and persisted, Karen probably wouldn't lay low. In fact, she'd let him have it for being so pushy, likely to the point of slapping him and telling the cops "Keep this guy away from me." He would have had to secretly watch her without her knowing. That said, Matt would never have let Karen go to the diner with Frank, because we know that Frank brought Karen there as bait. Matt would never allow someone to use Karen like that, so he would have taken her back to the police station and she'd get scolded by Brett. Not to mention that Matt can hear when Frank is lying. The only reason that scene works is because Karen thinks he doesn't lie to her. If Matt were there, he'd know from hearing Frank's heartbeat that Frank was lying and he would have gotten her out of there pretty quickly sensing what was outside.
  • If Matt had gone about it the right way - acknowledging her anger, admitting that he handled things badly), maybe he could have convinced Karen to hear him out and let him come with her. But it's understandable why he didn’t try, after she already shut him down twice.
  • It would definitely change things a lot across not just the end of season 2, but also The Defenders and The Punisher. This would mean two possibilities:
    • Option A: Karen accepts, because Matt convinces her to not go after Frank at all. She ends up staying in with Matt. They might end up on better terms and he may tell her his secret. However, Karen doesn’t go help (and influence) Frank, and Matt doesn’t intercept Frank at the docks. This means that while the Elektra and Hand story line continues, Frank becomes a wild card there. A lot of his actions probably follow the same course but there’s also the potential for him to spin out and cause some more destruction.
    • Option B: Karen ditches Matt like she did the police and goes to meet with Frank. However, Matt’s a lot harder to ditch than she realizes because of his super senses, so he follows her. Meaning he probably has a confrontation with Frank at the diner, rather than on the Blacksmith's boat. Which could just put him off course for the Hand side of the story, it could get Frank arrested and let Schoonover walk free, it could get either Matt or Frank hurt, or it could lead to an early secret identity reveal between Matt and Karen.
    • Regardless, the biggest effect is going to come in one factor: either of these might (or might not) delay Matt in rescuing Stick. If he ended up being too slow, Stick would be killed and Elektra would join the Hand. If Stick dies, that means The Defenders gets drastically altered because he's not around to give Danny vital information in stopping the Hand. If Elektra joins the Hand earlier than she ultimately did, she’s likely more formidable and harder to reach when the Hand started mining dragon bones. It also would change things for The Defenders on the grounds that Elektra would be joining the Hand without Alexandra needing to waste substance trying to revive her, meaning that she wouldn't need to be expediting the Hand's plans to mine the dragon bones.
  • If only she knew how Matt has protected her and would do so again in the near future, she would. The telling thing is that Matt can't say anything because he feels the truth will hurt her or he'll be rejected so he'd rather take the abuse because she thinks he's a drunk, immoral, womanizer.
  • Matt tries to protect Karen, and Karen seems to resent it. Karen legit tells Matt she's not his to protect, y'know, so if he's not going to get on board then he can get out of her way. Which he does...but then she has to be saved multiple times by multiple guys over the next two episodes, including twice by Frank and once by Matt.
  • Matt in police protection? Matt would hate it. Matt’s constantly in motion. He’s always moving, always going forward, always doing something. He’s always running, which makes moments where he is still so much more powerful. Matt standing still long enough for Karen to hug him is amazing enough, him staying still under police protection would be impossible. With what Karen experiences in season 2, her next step would probably have been WITSEC, which Matt would not have been able to do much in. But to a broader point: Matt repeatedly tries to control Karen, or more actually tries to keep his vision of her as this innocent woman in his head. Karen “it’s not safe”, Karen “I have to protect you”. That whole white knight thing, we see a lot from. This is why that scene in the church crypt and later in Fogwell's before the grand jury in season 3, is so important. Matt is letting go of his overprotectiveness. Karen and Matt needed to break up to come back together. They needed the events of The Defenders and season 3 to become the couple they deserve to be. The incarnation of their relationship they had in season 2 was going toxic real fast. Karen standing up with and for Frank is an important bit of growth that she does because of and in spite of Matt. Whether intentional or not one of the reasons she advocates for Frank is because she wants Matt to stop treating her like a toddler. It’s not the main reason, but it definitely plays a part.
  • While it would be nice to have scenes with Matt and Karen in protective custody together, it's hard to imagine it'd be good for them, because Matt would be disrespecting her wishes, her space and treating her like a child who needs to be babysat. Considering the way he's been acting up to this point, the worst case scenario is that this would've caused things to boil over, possibly irreparably since neither one seems willing to actually talk. Best case scenario, they could have taken the time to talk and explain things. But she had made plans with Frank so she probably would not have agreed to have Matt tag along, which would probably be worse, because imposing to stay with Karen to protect her is one thing, while secretly following her around is something else (if Matt knew she was meeting Frank and only wanted to get to him, that would be a smidge better, but it's kinda crossing a line if he's just shadowing her).
    • Let's say Karen had agreed that Matt could go with her. If she had actually accepted...that might be different, because at least it would be on better grounds, but, still, unless they were willing to actually sit down, be honest, and talk, it probably wouldn't have ended well. They just weren't there yet.
  • If Matt had gone with Karen, it would’ve thrown a wrench into her plans with Frank. If Matt came along because she caved, maybe that would be an indication that she does still kinda trust him and want him around, and perhaps she’d be willing to talk to him more about Frank. It probably wouldn't have ended up in them going to see Frank together, but at least they would’ve communicated. If Matt forced himself along, that would be super unfortunate both because it would further damage their relationship and because it would harm Karen’s character by letting Matt push her around, so...kudos to the writers for not going that route. But if they had, Karen would’ve tried to sneak out, thinking she could avoid the blind guy, and Matt obviously would’ve followed her, and maybe gotten into a fight with Frank when he arrived to pick Karen up, which would’ve been…entertaining. For their character arcs, this would’ve either pushed them way forward or shoved them way backwards, depending on whether Matt’s decision to accompany Karen is a decision Karen’s actually okay with.

Digging through the Bulletin archives is pointless

• Karen has an idea of when Frank Castle’s family was murdered. So her big play is to page through the Bulletin archives until she find papers from that approximate time period? And just the Bulletin? What about public records? What about the Internet? The only shootout victims whose deaths were covered up were the undercover officer and Frank's family, so I would think Karen's first stop should be the precinct, speak to Brett Mahoney, and ask him to direct her to whoever in the NYPD you speak to when you want to make inquiries about an old case.
  • Also, why would Karen just break into Frank’s house? I know Karen's a risk taker, but that's a little risky. I mean, for all she knew, the house could have been occupied by another family. And why would she ever take a framed picture from the house?
  • Or she does the smart thing and goes to the Bulletin? Unlike the police, who seemed to cover the massive fuck ups that happened in the park, the Bulletin is a place that has and is willing to give her the info. Also she broke into Frank's house because the house was abandoned. It's not really uncommon to find an abandoned house, especially in New York City. It's surprising only that she broke in so far and the house is seemingly left intact like a place frozen in time. The place should be a hobo's bathroom by now. And that's going with the theory that Karen was stupid and just went to the house and saw it was abandoned, instead of the more likely explanation - that she checked with real estate agents offscreen and whatnot to see if the house was inhabited or untouched.

Communication is key

• Poor communication seems to have been the root of most of the breakdown in Matt's relationships with Karen and Foggy in season 2. Would things have differed if Matt had actually been open and told Foggy right away that Elektra was back in town?
  • It's likely that Foggy’s reaction would have been much the same as it is in the current show. In the show, Foggy is decidedly not pleased when he learns that Elektra is back in Matt’s life (the show actually missed a great opportunity to have a college flashback involving Foggy confronting Matt when Elektra first entered the picture and Matt started ditching class). Since Foggy is already not crazy about the whole Daredevil thing, it's possible that his opinion of Matt’s nighttime activities would sink even further if he knew from the start that Elektra was involved as well. Karen is a little trickier as the one who doesn't know about Matt being Daredevil; it's possible that Matt still would not have told her about his alter ego, so he’d probably have to come up with some “she needs me to defend her” type excuses, which would have gone over Karen like a lead balloon (like all of his other bullshit excuses). And Karen probably would not be happy with Matt running off to help his ex-girlfriend whenever she snapped her fingers; she would have been grilling Foggy about who exactly Elektra was.
  • It's also possible that if Foggy knew exactly what Matt was up to during all of his disappearing acts, especially since he's familiar with Elektra’s influence, he’d be able to argue Matt out of some (if not all) of his date night fights against ninjas, and as a result Frank Castle’s trial would be less of a disaster. Maybe Foggy would have even been able to get Matt to see just how unhealthy his relationship with Elektra was.
  • If Matt had come clean about Elektra in the very beginning NONE of the drama and breakdowns caused by secrecy would have happened, at least not the way that they ultimately did. If Matt told them the truth, he would most likely have Karen and Foggy's support and he wouldn't have gone down the rabbit hole and isolated himself. And it would have had major impacts on the other shows as well. To elaborate:
    • If Matt told Foggy the truth about Elektra as soon as she deposited the money in their account, all he'd really be able to tell Foggy would be that "Elektra is back in town, she tried to hire me. I told her no, and now she is trying to force my hand by giving me money." That’s all he knows at this point. He doesn't know anything about her involvement with the ninjas, the Hand, or Stick at this point, but he does know about her connections to the Roxxon Corporation.
    • Foggy doesn’t know exactly what went down between Matt and Elektra in the past, based on his casual reference to her in the "Nelson v. Murdock" flashbacks (“…Whatever happened to that Greek girl you liked?”)^note Then again, season 2 did retcon things in the season 1 flashbacks to integrate Matt's college relationship with Elektra, but conversations later in season 2 establish that Foggy does know that Matt’s academic career was severely disrupted during the period in which he was dating Elektra, and he likely knew that she hurt Matt, even if Matt tried to hide how devastated he was after she left. With Matt not knowing about Elektra's ulterior motives, Foggy likely would tell Matt that it was a smart move for him to decline to represent her, and he would say so, and encourage Matt to hold firm to that decision. Likely, this means Matt wouldn’t go tearing off to eavesdrop on Elektra’s Roxxon meeting, and would still be around when Blake Tower comes by the office and tries to get the firm to turn over their files on Grotto. While Foggy stood his ground against Tower on his own in the actual scene, Matt would probably have a verbal spar with Tower similar to one we see him have with Tower at Fogwell's in season 3 episode 12 when he and Foggy are vouching for Nadeem's credibility.
    • Furthermore, if Matt tells the truth about Elektra right then and there in the office, he would also be telling Karen about Elektra, since she arrives at the office about a minute after Matt arrives. This would have major implications for that evening, when Matt and Karen go on their date. Elektra makes her next attempt to contact Matt by calling him at the fancy restaurant while Karen is in the bathroom. If Karen already knows about the situation with Elektra, then when she comes back from the bathroom, Matt would just tell her, “We need to go somewhere else, Karen. Elektra knows that we’re here, she just called me,” instead of the sudden about-face he does in the show. Saying he’s not comfortable in a fancy place isn’t a bad excuse (it's more a lie of omission), but if he's being honest, then there’s no reason not to tell Karen the truth.
    • In this case, Karen would recognize Elektra’s behavior for the stalking and harassment that it is. And while Matt's relationship with Elektra isn't the same as Karen's relationship with Todd Neiman was, she'd notice parallels. And not knowing yet about Daredevil, Karen would find Elektra's persistence disturbing…maybe even more than Matt seems to find it. Consider the fact that Elektra calls Matt on the restaurant’s phone, instead of his personal phone, despite the fact that she knows Matt's number (since she uses that number later on when she calls him at the office). That is a deliberate move on her part, or rather, a deliberate move on Stick's part. It's Elektra's (and Stick's) way of sending the message, “I am watching you, Matthew. I know where you are right now, and I will interrupt your life whenever I feel like it.” That is creepy, and Karen would see right through that.
    • For obvious reasons, it's reasonable to assume that neither Matt nor Karen would want to spend their first date talking about Matt’s crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Because common sense says that that's not really the most ideal first date material. So when Matt and Karen have their makeout scene on Karen's front steps, two things could happens: A) Karen would at least say enough that Matt would be convinced to accept Karen's invitation up for sex and not go to Elektra’s penthouse that night, leaving her to fight all those ninjas by herself. If this happened, Elektra, who has never found a boundary of Matt's she wasn't willing to steamroll over, would break into Matt's apartment again to talk to him. She would kinda have to do so anyways in order to return the Daredevil suit, given that Matt didn't follow her little script for date night. Alternately, B) Matt would still turn down Karen because he doesn't want her to see the scars and force him to awkwardly admit he's Daredevil^note Because that would instantly kill the mood, go back to his apartment, find the Daredevil suit is missing, and go to Elektra's penthouse and still help her fight the ninjas. Regardless, Matt would at some point still ask Elektra those unresolved questions of his regarding that day at Roscoe Sweeney's mansion.
    • The next day, Matt would still insist that Nelson & Murdock should take it upon themselves to defend Frank once they get to see how incompetent Frank's public defender was (and for Matt, allow him to distract himself from Elektra). Where things would deviate is when Elektra sends her hired driver to the hospital to pick Matt up to go to the gala while the trio are in the midst of convincing Frank to hire them as his legal counsel. Because Foggy and Karen are aware of Elektra's stalking (because Matt and Karen have told Foggy about how Elektra called Matt during their date), they would know that the hired car means Elektra without Matt having to say anything. So they would both say things along the lines of of, “Matt. No. Don't even think about going,” if Matt looked like he was considering going with Elektra. The only way Matt could possibly justify even considering going down and getting in that car would be to tell them that the city is in danger, and that he has to help Elektra stop the bad guys...
    • ...and that's an argument that would require Matt to admit to Karen that he’s Daredevil. Whether or not he tells Karen that he's Daredevil, she would be incredibly concerned about Matt's safety. If he doesn’t tell her, she would probably see this whole stunt of Elektra's as her deciding to escalate the stalking (which is just as bad, maybe even worse than the whole Daredevil thing). And if he does tell her that he's Daredevil, that puts Matt and Karen in the position they're in at the end of season 2, albeit six episodes earlier, since Matt is being open and Karen is still withholding about killing her brother and Wesley. There is just no good justification Matt could give to Karen in this situation for bailing on them to tend to whatever Elektra needs him for. And if he tried to tell Foggy in private, Karen would find it suspicious that Matt is sending her out of the room so he can have a private word with Foggy about his ex-girlfriend. She'd be wondering, "What is it with Elektra that the two of you don't want me to know about?" a question where Matt and Foggy would have a hard time formulating an answer that allows them to sidestep revealing that Matt is Daredevil.
    • If Matt does come clean, and tells Foggy and Karen what Elektra had told him, then Foggy would probably say something to the effect of, “Elektra is a liar and a sociopath. You can’t just take her word for it. Besides, even if she is telling the truth, you have a job to do here, Matt. You are the one who insisted that we take on Frank as a client, you don't get to run off and leave me and Karen to handle this alone.” Regardless of how Karen might react to the bombshell of learning that Matt is Daredevil, she would certainly side with Foggy on this. This means that the only way Matt gets in that car is if he refuses to listen to the perfectly reasonable objections of the two people he trusts and cares about most. He'd have two options: either A) he burns his bridges with Karen and Foggy right then and there, or B) he stays with Karen and Foggy, they tell the driver "We're sorry, but Mr. Murdock is incredibly busy and is unavailable at this time. And please tell the woman who sent you to never contact him again," and Elektra is forced to go to the fancy party without him. With his lack of trust in Elektra, Matt almost certainly would choose his friends and the trial instead of helping her.
    • If Matt stays at the hospital, then he's there when Frank gets arraigned and suddenly changes his plea to “not guilty.” This subsequently means that Matt is 100% invested in Frank's trial right from the start, because this whole version of events would have the mental effect of Matt prioritizing his civilian life while relegating Daredevil and Elektra to the background (like he's doing at the start of The Defenders), instead of the other way around as it was in the show. If Elektra tries calling him at the office, Foggy and Karen would know it was her, and would apply another round of "No, Matt" if Matt seemed like he was wavering.
    • Matt would still want to save the city as Daredevil, and there's no way he would stop going out to fight criminals (though he would probably cut back on how much he's doing each night on account of his commitments to Frank's trial). But by not going with Elektra, he wouldn’t be "seeing" the evidence of her story for himself. He's not going to the gala, or to the codebreaking professor. All he'd have to go on would be her word alone, at least until Stick shows up (it's also possible that Stick would have to get himself involved a lot sooner because of Elektra being unsuccessful in her attempts to lure Matt back to the Chaste). And Matt at this point would have no reason to trust Elektra and plenty of reasons to not trust her. That, combined with Foggy and Karen acting as the voices of reason when necessary, would be just enough to ensure that Matt stayed on-task until Frank's trial was over.
    • Frank's trial itself wouldn't have changed much with Matt's fulltime commitment. To start the trial, Matt would have delivered the opening statement instead of Foggy. Whether or not Elektra would still threaten the medical examiner is unclear, but if she still went through with threatening Tepper, it would be seen by Matt, Karen and Foggy as Elektra deciding to get payback for Matt refusing her invitation to the gala. Karen and Foggy would still be mad about Tepper's testimony being ruined, and they'd be angry at Matt for dragging Elektra into their lives, but they'd be more understanding of Matt's side of things and their anger would probably be directed primarily at Elektra because they know Matt isn't responsible for Elektra's choices. This wouldn't have affected the testimonies of Colonel Schoonover or the doctor who talked about the long-term effects of Frank's brain injury, and they were both pretty strong witnesses for the defense.
    • Sadly, even if Matt was fully committed to Frank's trial, and completely honest with Karen and Foggy, his involvement wouldn’t have been enough to change the outcome of the trial, because by the time he takes the stand, Frank wants to be convicted so that he can meet Fisk in prison. So the verdict would be the same, as does most of the Punisher storyline for the back half of season 2. But Karen and Foggy would have heard Matt out when he tried to discuss with them the possibility of someone getting to Frank. Karen would still have continued to dig into the deaths of Frank's family; and Reyes would still have told them about her role in the coverup after Frank escaped. Reyes would still be assassinated. Matt would still visit Fisk in prison (to set things up for season 3) and attempt to track down the Blacksmith, but he would visit Foggy in the hospital to tell him about Fisk threatening him, and maybe he'd also tell Karen about his meeting with Fisk during the "I'm not yours to protect" conversation. The big difference is that Matt's professional and personal relationships with Karen and Foggy would stay intact.
    • People like Jeri Hogarth who were impressed with Foggy's work on Frank's trial would also be impressed with Matt's work in this version of events, since the trial was a collaborative effort by both. This means that there is no reason for Matt and Foggy to fight and no reason for Nelson & Murdock to break up. Matt and Karen would've resumed dating once the Blacksmith and Hand messes were resolved. Karen would still make her visit to Colonel Schoonover since she had promised Ellison an exclusive for the Bulletin on what she uncovered regarding Frank. However, if Karen knows that Matt is Daredevil and learning the things Frank did to him, Matt might have gone with her when she visited Schoonover, and he probably would have talked her out of going with Frank to the diner (meaning something else would've gotten Frank to the Blacksmith's boat). Whether Karen still decided to go to the Bulletin and work for Ellison would be unclear; it's likely that she would, since her job as a journalist is necessary for certain storylines in later seasons, like when she's targeted by Lewis Wilson in The Punisher season 1, or when she visits Fisk in season 3 of Daredevil.^note Would the FBI guards let her see Fisk if she were just an office manager/private investigator for a law firm instead of a former reporter? But it just as well could end up simply being that her exclusive for Ellison was a one-time only thing, not the start of a new career, and she would stay at Nelson & Murdock as their in-house private investigator (which would only necessitate slight changes to her work for Frank in The Punisher and her tracing Fisk's money trail in Daredevil season 3). If she does end up going to the Bulletin, Matt and Foggy would have spent part of the final episode of season 2 seeking out a new secretary, such as Becky Blake.
    • The rest of the Hand / Elektra story that followed Frank's trial would play out mostly the same, just with the details differed. Even with Matt waiting until after Frank's trial to fight ninjas, he'd still have complications in his relationships with Karen and Foggy. However, as long as he keeps Karen and Foggy in the loop, they'd be able to soldier through it. He'd still uncover the Hand's blood farm, still take those kids to the hospital, and the Hand's attack on the hospital would still happen (the only real difference being that Matt would've been in Foggy's hospital room when the Hand showed up). It's possible that things might've differed in the last episode in that by being with Matt, Karen never got taken by the Hand when they kidnapped the Daredevil survivors as bait for Matt, if they at all still did that. So Nobu would still be decapitated by Stick, Frank would still give Matt cover fire, and Elektra would still die from intervening to stop Nobu from killing Matt.
    • Thus, Season 2 would still end on a bleak note, but just not as bleak as we got in the actual show: we'd still have Frank faking his death and starting his cross-country road trip to track down the remaining plotters from the Central Park shootout. Fisk would still be biding his time as he waits for Nadeem to be driven into enough debt for him to be played like Fisk's personal fiddle. The Hand would still be very much active, Alexandra having Elektra's body acquired and put in the resurrection casket. But Matt wouldn't be alone and Karen, Foggy, and Father Lantom would be there to help him work through his grief. He might even regret that he turned down Elektra's initial attempts to ask for his help. Nelson & Murdock would still be open, and Matt and Karen would still be dating, with Karen maybe even trying to encourage Matt to continue fighting crime as Daredevil to honor Elektra's memory. Foggy would still get back together with Marci and move in with her, but he wouldn't be working with her at Hogarth Chao & Benowitz. Since Nelson & Murdock was financially struggling at the start of season 2, it's likely that to keep the lights on, Matt and Foggy would have to readjust their business practices, and Foggy would have to ask Marci to defer some of their casework to him.
    • This doesn't really cause much change to Matt's storyline in The Defenders. His core story arc would stay mostly the same, but the details of his movements leading up to Midland Circle would've differed. Because Matt and Foggy didn't break up the firm in this version of events, Nelson & Murdock would have defended Luke Cage, instead of Foggy defending Luke through Hogarth Chao & Benowitz.^note Meaning that when Matt and Jessica meet Luke and Danny in Midland Circle, Luke would recognize Matt and wonder how his lawyer is also acquainted with Jessica. This also means that Matt ceases using Jessica's scarf as an improvised mask right away when they get to the Royal Dragon without Jessica having to prompt him, due to Danny being the only one of them who wouldn't already know who he is. It's likely though that only Foggy would've gone down to greet Luke on his release from prison, since Matt would be very busy with the Aaron James case Matt would still get involved with Jessica's case, but instead of Foggy asking on behalf of Jeri, it would involve Jeri asking Marci to handle Jessica, Marci passing it off to Foggy, and then Foggy passing it off to Matt. Matt would also have informed Luke, Jessica and Danny about who Elektra is while they were conversing at the Royal Dragon prior to Stick's arrival, so the circumstances that allowed Danny to get tied up and later captured would've been altered. This would also affect the climax: with Matt's relationships with Karen and Foggy being in a stronger place due to him having been open and honest during Elektra's first reappearance in his life, he would not have been as inclined to stay behind in the climax of The Defenders and would've returned to the surface with the others. Rather than the candlelit vigil we saw Karen doing for Matt in the actual timeline, we'd have Matt, Karen, Foggy, and Matt's new allies, holding a memorial service for Stick, with Matt giving a eulogy about Stick that would be very similar to the one we see him give at Father Lantom's funeral in the season 3 finale.
    • If Matt returns to the surface, that changes Karen's role in the first season of The Punisher. Because Matt and Karen are still dating, maybe even living together, Karen would have been a lot more wary of Frank popping back into her life, given the stuff that happened in Matt's in-costume interactions with Frank both before and after the trial (though perhaps Frank's actions in the finale of Daredevil season 2, and his giving Matt cover fire, might suggest to Karen that Frank had made amends for the time he shot Matt in the head). Karen also would have had Matt and Foggy be with her as her lawyers when Madani questioned her about Frank following Madani's car accident. In addition, Matt would have gotten involved when Lewis threatens Karen on the radio, and Matt would butt heads with Frank at the hotel (Matt might even get Luke and Jessica involved in protecting Karen, since they have superstrength, and we know from Luke Cage season 2 that Luke can take a grenade blast). Hard to say what this would've caused as far as Lewis's fate is concerned, but perhaps he would up being arrested instead of being goaded by Frank into killing himself in the meat locker, and Frank would not be able to use Karen as a "hostage" for his getaway because Matt would never allow Frank to use Karen like that. Matt and Foggy would also probably represent Frank and David when they give their depositions to Madani at the DHS headquarters prior to conducting the hostage exchange to trade Sarah and Zach for Frank, and maybe work out the negotiating with Marion James to let Frank off the hook for killing Rawlins.
    • Matt would not have been involved in the events of Jessica Jones season 2 or Iron Fist season 2, due to the way those stories were structured and the personalized nature of Jessica's IGH case and Danny's feud with Davos. However, he would have taken Foggy's place in Luke Cage season 2 when Luke is being sued by Cockroach. The arbitration scene at the start of that episode would go down a lot differently with Matt alongside or even completely taking Foggy's place, since Donovan is Cockroach's attorney and Matt holds a lot of contempt for Donovan because he's also representing Fisk. But Foggy would agree that Luke appearing at Piranha's party would be the best solution for everyone, and Matt would take Foggy's place as Luke's plus one there. Matt would also have helped Luke that night with hiding Piranha from the Stylers after they attack the party.
    • Entering Daredevil season 3, things would differ significantly if Matt, Karen and Foggy were still very much in contact and communicating with one another. Matt would still have his red season 2 costume at the start, and, since he's still there and committed to his relationships with Karen and Foggy, their investigations of Fisk are much more interconnected. Because of them being closer at this point in time, Karen would have come clean with Matt and with Foggy about Wesley's death a lot sooner than she did in the actual season, and probably with Matt first. She'd also seek Matt to be her lawyer, rather than Foggy. Matt would still thwart the kidnapping attempt on the Kazemis, who previously owned the hotel Fisk bought, though the bit where he tries to goad the attackers into killing him would be cut. He'd also still have the scene where he interrogates Donovan in the parking garage and has to fight FBI agents to escape. Karen still ends up uncovering the information connecting Fisk to the hotel and to Red Lion, while Foggy would still be encouraged by Marci (and maybe Matt) to run for District Attorney.
    • Where things really begin to change would be with regards to Matt's visit to the prison and learning about Jasper Evans. If Matt is still actively practicing law, there's no reason for him to steal Foggy's Bar card and pose as him. Otherwise, the visit to Michael Kemp is the same, as is the subsequent prison fight and Fisk's men trying to drown Matt in the taxi.
    • It's after the taxi drowning that things differ. Since Matt hasn't pushed Karen and Foggy away, he would go to them, warn them that Fisk knows he's Daredevil, increasing the urgency for them to find Jasper Evans. Though given the circumstances, Matt might feel that the only way to know what Fisk will do with this information is to let Fisk make the first move.
    • In episode 5 of season 3, Fisk gets Nadeem out of the way while he finalizes his plans for turning Dex by "accusing" Matt of being an accomplice to him. In the actual show, this worked for him since Matt had been missing for several months and wouldn't have the resources to defend himself. In this hypothetical scenario, Fisk would have to take a different approach to go after Matt, because Matt would have enough credible alibis to mostly counteract Fisk's allegations. Perhaps he would set into motion a few episodes early the racket he's doing with Foggy's brother, making it look like Foggy knew about his brother's fraud and did nothing about it. This gives Matt and Karen extra incentive to find more witnesses against Fisk and more on what Fisk is planning long-term, but also serve the job of jeopardizing Foggy's District Attorney campaign.
    • On top of that, if Matt has been active as Daredevil all this time, that might also create complications for Fisk as he might not have a very large window in which to ready the Daredevil suit for Dex; not to mention he would be running the risk of Melvin tipping off Matt about what Fisk is ordering him to do.^note Although if the original "Born Again" story is any indication, Matt would've probably told Melvin to go through with making the suit for Dex
    • With Matt more in the know, the trio would manage to figure out Fisk's whole conspiracy without Foggy looking through Marci's briefs. This means that Matt would spend some time going after the gangs that Fisk was trying to recruit into his extortion racket; maybe bring up what happened with Union Allied, the Russians, Owlsley, Nobu, Detective Blake, etc. in season 1 to demonstrate how Fisk discards of people when they're no longer useful to him.
    • Matt and Karen would still track down Jasper Evans concurrently with that, and he'd still be killed in the Bulletin attack by Dex. Matt would still be injured in Dex's attack,^note Since he didn't bring his costume there; a careful observer will notice that he stole a sweater and beanie hat from a coat rack in the room where he and Foggy were sitting as they waited for the FBI to arrive but since he's not living in the church, he'd have gone with Karen and Foggy back to his own apartment to recuperate, and it would be Claire, not Sister Maggie, who'd stitch him up afterwards and suggest he visit Melvin. Claire, Karen and Foggy would also suggest Matt downgrade to his old costume so the cops don't confuse him for Dex. Matt would also take Foggy's place as Karen's lawyer when Nadeem questions her after the Bulletin attack.
    • With Karen and Foggy being in the know, Matt probably wouldn't go alone to speak to Melvin, likely bringing Karen along with him, also giving them a better fighting chance when the FBI show up. So they know much sooner that Fisk has corrupt FBI agents in his pocket, something Matt would get on to Nadeem a lot quicker and in a way that would make Nadeem realize a lot sooner that Dex isn't an isolated bad apple.
    • Matt would still go with Nadeem to search Dex's apartment, they'd still get shot at by Dex, and Nadeem would still be blackmailed by Hattley and Felix Manning. The only difference is that perhaps, depending on how much trust he has in Matt, Karen and Foggy, Nadeem would go to them for help after Hattley betrays him. Karen would still visit Fisk in his penthouse and use Wesley's death to try to provoke him, though either Matt or Nadeem would take Foggy's place as the one to rescue her from Fisk.
    • This would set the stage for a situation where Matt, Karen and Foggy do something like convince Nadeem to wear a wire while going around with Dex and the other corrupt FBI agents, though at the risk of Nadeem's family being taken prisoner if the wire is discovered. It's possible that the church attack would still happen, in which case Father Lantom would still die and Brett would still be integral to getting Matt and Karen out of the church. Or, alternately, Fisk blackmails Karen by threatening to ruin her reputation with his knowledge of her past activities in Vermont as well as Wesley's death, if she doesn't do his dirty work for him.
    • Their efforts to put Nadeem before the grand jury would stay the same. Only difference is that Matt might be in a better headspace to realize Nadeem is still in danger after Fisk intimidates the jury out of indicting him, maybe even getting to Nadeem's house in time to save him before Dex can kill him. Afterwards, Matt would still go after Felix Manning and the climactic Mêlée à Trois would still happen due to Matt provoking Dex with the information about Fisk ordering Julie's death, though maybe with Nadeem and Karen providing him with backup.
  • An alternate possibility is that if Matt told Foggy and Karen everything Elektra had told him right away, Karen would abandon her digging into the death of Frank Castle's family and instead start digging into Elektra's story herself. She wouldn’t find much about the Hand, but you have the Roxxon corporation, and the story Elektra gave Matt in the first place about their shady investments. Daredevil season 2 focused on the ninja-fighting end of the Hand’s business, and Iron Fist focused on the more white-collar aspects of the Hand, and investigating the corporate end seems like it would be right up Karen’s alley, given that's what sort of investigating she was doing into Union Allied when they were taking down Fisk. So Karen would still have joined the Bulletin, just with different circumstances.
  • Most of Matt’s actions in regards to Elektra are colored by him very firmly believing that he is never going to fall for her again. And he still has unresolved issues with her. So he doesn’t see himself as doing anything but what is necessary for the protection of the city. He doesn’t see himself as hurting Karen or Foggy. He doesn’t see himself as making poor choices. He sees himself as being caught in a situation where he can’t be both sides of himself and has to choose the one that saves lives. And because of that, it's possible that Karen or Foggy knowing about Elektra wouldn't have changed anything that Matt did in respect to her.
    Foggy and Karen probably wouldn't have talked him out of any aspect of it because Matt is not someone who you talk out of anything in his life. Matt does what Matt is gonna do. That’s part of what makes him such a compelling hero: his idealism and the way his sticks to his beliefs no matter what, especially in the cases of Elektra, Frank, or even Stick try to convince him to kill. It’s also what can sometimes cause collapse in his life. It’s what drives him and Foggy and Karen apart. In fact, that trait of Matt’s is one of the main things that season 2 in particular is about: Matt is who he is and he won’t change for anyone. It’s what lets him succeed as Daredevil, and it’s the reason his life falls apart as Matt Murdock. And at the end of the season that aspect of his is shaken to some extent, and his arc in The Defenders is about him recovering that direction that lets him cut through what anyone else says he should be.
    • The situation overall would have been a lot better if Matt had told Foggy and Karen about Elektra right away, because at least it would have strengthened their communication throughout the season. Karen and Foggy knowing all about Elektra earlier would have had some impacts on their relationships with Matt, though. Matt and Karen's dating life might be altered, but even if they still broke up, at least Karen would understand why it was happening, and maybe hurt a little less because it wouldn’t feel like a lack of trust on his part, or like lies. It would be a more "he loves me, yes, but he clearly has strong feelings for Elektra" sort of situation. Foggy’s relationship with Matt might have sustained less damage though. Because then he’d know why Matt wasn’t giving Frank's trial his all. He’d know how to prepare for Matt’s absences a little better. And as angry as Foggy might be with Matt throughout it, he wouldn’t have felt so blindsided and lied-to, so he would have a better understanding of where Matt was coming from, and might even be able to draw parallels to what happened in college a bit better and maybe have some sense of "we’ve made it through this once before, we can do it again." Foggy might even view it a little bit in terms of Matt needing to be saved from Elektra’s influence (which isn’t really a fair estimation, but it’s one that Foggy might draw nonetheless). It's unclear whether Matt would have been any less inclined to go team up with Elektra (though Foggy might have managed to talk him out of one or two trips).
  • Matt knows Foggy enough that if he had told him about Elektra, Foggy would have blown up about it. Foggy kinda lost it in the bathroom and made it clear he thought Elektra was BAD for Matt and he did not like her at all. If Matt had told him from the beginning, Foggy would have put a stop to it. There's a scene in the Mark Waid run of the comics where Matt does something similar, and doesn't tell Foggy because he knows exactly how Foggy will react. And that client wasn't even Elektra, it was a random person that he just knew Foggy would hate. But the communicating thing is a big deal. It's the one shining ray of light that comes out of season 2 was when Matt finally told Karen his secret. He has to know it might not end well, but she deserves to know, and if she wants to go shout it from the rooftops or write about in the Bulletin, well, it was still his choice to come clean.
  • One thing to consider is how this would've changed things from Elektra's end. Elektra sees Foggy and Karen as roadblocks between her and Matt, and in a way they are. They would be more speed bumps if Matt actually told Karen and Foggy about Elektra from the moment she showed up. Whenever she's talking about Foggy and Karen, Elektra pretty much just dismisses them or worse. And Matt’s defense of them is weak at best. Had any of them properly met, it probably wouldn’t have ended well at all. Especially because Foggy knows first hand what Elektra does to Matt. Remember, season 2 isn’t the first time these two pull this bullshit. When Matt was previously dating Elektra, he almost failed a semester of law school. That’s "end-your-career-before-it-even-started" bad (a fact many people tend to sweep under the rug in the name of love). It seems that Matt purposefully doesn’t tell Foggy about Elektra, because he knows that Foggy knows exactly how toxic their (Matt and Elektra) relationship is. He was there on the first go around. Matt also knows that Foggy could probably talk some semblance of sense into him. Foggy and Karen only want the best for Matt would have spoken up. They're a lot of things, but they wouldn't go quietly. They would have kicked and screamed from the get-go, had they known. In many ways Matt and Foggy are each others' alarm bells, and Matt purposely silenced his (Foggy), because he didn’t want to hear the warning.

Foggy, there's a time and place to criticize Matt. "When he's injured" is not one of them

• When Matt's recuperating on the couch from getting shot in the head by Frank, he asks Foggy how Karen's doing, and Foggy says that they've already been over this. Which makes you ask, "How many times did they have a conversation about what happened, but Matt doesn't remember because he's severely concussed?" Also, there's normally a time and a place for justified criticism. Taking in your friend's obvious injury and confused state and making the situation about you instead is not the move of a great guy, and let's face it, Foggy had done that before when he found Matt bleeding after the Nobu fight.
  • In that instance, it seems that Foggy was just really overwhelmed. He had just spent his night trying to track down Matt (and you know he was thinking he would more than likely find him dead). Not to mention, once he did find Matt, Foggy had to get him back to his apartment without anybody seeing them. Then, he had to tend to Matt's wounds, and from Matt's shaky answers piece together that Matt got shot in the head. That scene is Foggy’s worst fears coming true, and he’s probably started to think “this is not going to be the only time I have to do this”. Yes, Foggy should have been more sympathetic to his best friend lying concussed on the couch, but it’s also understandable that he just didn’t have a whole lot of patience for Matt in that moment. But it certainly wasn’t an ideal time for Foggy to make it all about him.
  • That's the only time he spent with Matt anymore. Yesterday he cleaned up the blood from his hair and Matt just laughed at it bragging how he broke a domestic abuser's arms. It's not like Matt listens when he is in better shape. It's just that now he doesn't get to simply walk away on Foggy when he brings out how he was asking for trouble.
    • Matt's concussed and almost died. Granted it’s Matt's fault, but Foggy should have put aside his anger to make sure he was okay- it’s not exactly the right time or place.
  • When you find your friend cut to shreds or shot in the head you are not going to react pragmatically. Foggy is in an emotional state. He's frustrated with Matt for putting himself in danger night after night and this is the second time he's found Matt barely alive. People don't always react the nicest way possible when they are scared, angry, overwhelmed and any other emotions running high. Foggy lashing out a bit is normal and a realistic response. Foggy ripping into him about not remembering isn't him trying to be selfish. He's pointing out that there are repercussions that Matt is ignoring. Matt keeps reiterating that everything is fine and under control. Foggy, who doesn't fully understand Matt's obsessive need to be Daredevil, clearly thinks otherwise. Sometimes the truth isn't going to be pleasant.
  • Like with the post-Nobu argument, a lot of this comes down to fear. Foggy is upset because he’s just been running around, trying to find what he likely imagines is Matt’s dead body. Foggy is angry because he’s scared. Matt refuses to change his behavior, despite the fact that he keeps nearly dying, and Foggy is terrified that his friend is refusing to acknowledge the severity of the situation. Of course the audience knows that Matt’s going to recover because he’s the protagonist, but all Foggy sees is a cycle of reckless action that can only end badly. Foggy doesn’t ignore Matt’s concussion in this scene, he does try to convince Matt to get medical help and some rest, while Matt insists that he’s fine and needs to go fight the Punisher again. If Foggy did anything wrong in the scene, it's that he should have taken Matt directly to the hospital, or if Matt still refused, call Claire and have her come over to babysit him.
  • Foggy’s frustration is at the fact that Matt completely fails to acknowledge the severity of the situation. His reaction is comparable to a parent who loses their child at the park. Their priority when reunited is to hug the child in relief and thank whatever higher power they believe in that everything is okay. The second is to firmly tell that same kid that they must never walk off again. Not that Matt is a child, or that the comparison is perfect, merely that intense worry often turns into anger once the danger is over. Would it have done better for Foggy to express himself differently? Certainly, but people tend to say a lot of stupid things when they’re hurt or worried.

Why doesn't Foggy contact Claire?

• When Matt is recuperating from his concussion, he's basically all by himself from when Foggy leaves him at his apartment until Karen shows up several hours later. I think Foggy could tell that Matt had a concussion. But I do wonder, why didn't Foggy call Claire and have her come over to see that Matt is okay and isn't alone? 'Cause with a concussion, I think Matt probably needed to be watched for a while.

Matt's hearing loss

• So Matt having his hearing loss episode in his apartment was terrifying. But it makes me sometimes wonder, how bad would things have been if Foggy had been unable to convince Matt to stay home and rest? And consequently, Matt went with Foggy and Karen to the precinct and had his hearing loss incident happen there in front of Karen, Brett, Tower, Grotto, and Reyes, instead of at home?
  • If it happened at the precinct, Foggy would have to use some quick thinking to explain why Matt spazzed out. Karen would be even more concerned since she already thinks Matt is an alcoholic. Alternately, Foggy would have no choice but to tell Karen the secret. It's possible he could have made up the same excuse that Matt fell and hit his head just to get Brett off his back (or Brett would be insisting that they forget about Grotto and focus on taking Matt to the hospital), but once Matt's hearing comes back, they'd have to come clean to Karen and tell her what the hell is going on.

Is Matt's suit a one-piece suit or two-piece?

• It looks like it could one piece with the belt for decoration, but it seems like it could be two pieces that use a few little hooks to avoid leaving space between top and bottom.
  • It's really hard to tell, because we never actually get to see Matt change into or out of the costume on-camera, he always does it offscreen. This most likely has to do with the fact that, according to Charlie Cox, the costume is a real challenge to put on, thus making on-screen changing sequences unfeasible.^note For example, this is why in The Defenders, when Matt and Jessica stop by Matt's apartment so he can change into civilian clothes before they go see John Raymond's daughter, we join the scene after Matt has changed clothes, and is putting the suit back in the chest However, the scene when Matt is first recuperating from his concussion in 2x02 has a few details that could easily point either way. There's the brief game of tug-of-war when Foggy picks up the suit and Matt tries to grab it away from him; from the way Foggy grabs the suit off the floor, it looks like they’re fighting over a single piece of clothing. But at the same time, when the camera pans over the suit on the floor at the beginning of the scene, it looks as though the top half could be separate from the bottom. So it is also possible that the top and bottom half of the suit are usually attached, but are also designed to be taken apart and worn individually. The only things that are certain are that the cowl/helmet, boots, and billy club holster are definitely separate pieces.
  • Motorcycle leathers are often two-piece suits which zip together at the waist. Once zipped up they move like a single garment, more or less, and lifting any part would lift the whole thing. It's a very practical way to build such a suit, in this troper's opinion, as two-piece leathers are easier to get in and out of than one-piece leathers; notably when visiting the toilet. Why it would still be zipped together when lying on the floor is something of a mystery, however, as the safest way to store a two-piece is in its separated state, although that may just be because Foggy was busy attending to Matt's injuries first.

Matt's plywood kitchen counter

• Matt's kitchen counter is clearly made of plywood. In fact on closer look, that’s Oriented Strand Board, which is basically particle board. I don’t know why anyone would build a counter out of it. PLUS they left the BARCODE facing out. Did the worst contractors in history build that for him?
  • Dude is blind he doesn't care and he gets it cheaper.
  • Foggy's cousin that does drywall repair installed it, maybe?

Matt and Karen's date

• Why on earth would Matt take Karen someplace fancy in the first place? And why would Karen agree to that, when she knows the firm is broke? They both know they can't afford it.
  • Karen knew a large deposit had just been made, so maybe she figured Matt would write off the dinner as a business expense.
  • From a narrative standpoint, the scene in the stuffy restaurant is to show just how much Matt wanted to impress Karen. Remember that he still has Elektra fresh in his mind, and Elektra always had to have the best of the best of everything. Logically, Matt probably thinks that a place that would have impressed Elektra would also impress Karen. But it turns out that Karen is just as uncomfortable in that environment as Matt is. He is absolutely delighted when she takes him to the Indian place with the colored lights and cheap wine. And it makes all the difference; they’re both so happy and comfortable after that, which more than makes up for the awkwardness of how their date started. The bare bones of that scene was the writers' way of showing just how much of a better match Karen is for Matt than Elektra.
  • There's a difference between being personally broke and your business being broke. Clearly, Matt, Karen and Foggy are doing okay, since they can all still afford Manhattan apartments etc, so Matt taking Karen out to a fancy place for dinner isn't unreasonable. It's kind of like college students who are "broke", but somehow always have money to get drunk. Matt can afford it, since we know his father left him with a substantial amount of money when he died (both the winnings from the Creel match and whatever came from the massive eight-figure check that Harold Meachum's legal team cut with an attached NDA in the out-of-court settlement for Matt's accident). Of course, it's also possible that they decided to write it off as a business expense thanks to the money Elektra had just deposited (I don't think they mentioned just how much money Elektra deposited, but it must have been a lot, certainly enough for Foggy to exclaim "Holy shit!" when the bank called to inform him).

Matt and Foggy's courthouse argument

• I can't be the only one who wished Matt and Foggy's little shouting bout in the courthouse bathroom after the medical examiner folded, ended on a more peaceful resolution where the friendship is still intact, no Foggy storming out and whatnot. Also, his anger should've been solely directed at Elektra, as she's the reason they lost the witness.
  • Foggy was extremely (and justifiably) pissed at Matt. It would take a lot for them to come out of that argument at (relative) peace. Mayyyyyybe, if Matt had asked for Foggy’s help (like when they were bringing down Fisk in season 1), with everything that was going on, Foggy might have been more willing to hear him out. But Matt is so firmly in “head up the ass” territory at this point I don’t know that it would have even occurred to him to think "Foggy, will you just help me help Elektra?". But yeah, I think most people, if they could rewrite the scene, would probably start along those lines, with Matt pleading for Foggy's help with all of the craziness.
  • Matt could have had a better chance of explaining himself to Foggy (or in later scenes, to Karen) if he wasn't trying to do it in the heat of the moment, at times when everyone’s emotions are running high. For example, here, when they were arguing in the bathroom and he brings up Elektra. That is quite possibly the worst time to mention her and all that he’s doing. Foggy’s rightfully furious with him and any explanation wasn’t going to help. What Matt should have done was tell both Karen and Foggy about Elektra as soon as he got that money into his account, because at that time, everyone was cool, calm, and in the right frame of mind to listen to Matt. If that had happened - if Matt had told Karen and Foggy about Elektra right from the moment she showed up, and kept them more updated into the whole thing they were investigating - that argument in the bathroom would have been resolved peacefully. Foggy would still be mad because a lot of their work was ruined, but he would have been more understanding of the situation.
    • The same can be said about why Foggy and Karen blew him off when he tried to explain the sabotage, that someone got to Frank. That was also a bad time to try and explain things to them because Foggy and Karen were both so angry at Matt, they weren’t in the right frame of mind to listen to anything he has to say. In fact, things probably would have been even worse to tell them what he’s doing at that time because they’d get even angrier. In their eyes, it’s not a justification for Matt to run off, no matter the reason. Again, if Matt did things the right way (ha), he would’ve told Karen and Foggy upfront what was going on from the beginning. Now, obviously I wouldn’t want Matt to tell either Karen and Foggy to shut up, but maybe ask to just listen to his side for a bit. Foggy and Karen are on edge, because Matt is living a double life, so they’re not sure if he’s going to be upfront with the truth. Again, had Matt tried to explain himself earlier in season two before everything went to shit, things would have smoothed over for himself a bit.
  • The catalyst for Foggy losing his cool is the revelation that Matt has lied again (about the fact that he’s been in regular contact with Elektra). Foggy's mad about the case, and the fact that Matt isn’t holding up his end of the partnership. Thus, Foggy's pissed off about the lack of communication, and the fact that Matt is unwilling to see this as a problem. Foggy is frustrated that Matt is continuing to lie to him, not to mention that Matt and Karen essentially forced Foggy to do this big, career-altering case when Matt actually had seemingly no intention of helping with it himself (actually Matt does want to help, but he just sucks at time management). Foggy is angry because Matt has not been telling him what’s actually going on. Since this is a problem that starts way beyond this conversation, it’s tough to say how the fight could have been avoided. It definitely would have helped a lot if Matt had told Karen and Foggy about Elektra from the beginning, and kept them in the loop about what he and Elektra were working on. But in the short-term, if Matt hadn’t mentioned that Elektra was his secret client, he might have dodged the argument with Foggy… at least temporarily.
    • There's an additional layer to Foggy's reactions here. Foggy is very harsh with Matt here, and rightfully so. And part of it is because at this point in time (he came around in the interim between season 2 and The Defenders, probably thanks to being hired by Claire to defend Luke Cage), he isn't accepting of vigilantism at all. He's probably been very conflicted about it because on the one hand, he knows Daredevil helps people, he knows Daredevil is a big part of how they were able to put away Fisk, yet Foggy just thinks vigilantism is wrong. He might even tell himself he’s just worrying for Matt’s safety (and there's some truth to that given Foggy's reactions when Matt got shot from his first attempt to take on Frank in a fight), because he's too scared to admit his real thoughts about vigilantism. The best interpretation of Matt and Foggy's disconnect in season 2 is that they never did resolve the conflict they had in "Nelson v. Murdock". That fight had been hugely upsetting for both of them, to the point that they were more inclined to pretend that they’d settled their differences, when in reality they just pushed their differences aside and regarded it as the elephant in the room. Fast forward to the bathroom argument in season 2 episode 7. Now you have Matt’s vigilante activities actively interfering with his job as a lawyer. This means that Foggy finally feels justified in his discomfort concerned vigilantism. When Matt tells him about Elektra, he’s handing Foggy proof that Daredevil is bad, so Foggy unloads on him. Foggy is also justified in his anger that Matt is neglecting his professional responsibilities to do whatever he's doing that involves his ex-girlfriend. He has every right to be pissed about that. It was never Matt’s intention, Matt honestly thought he could handle both his civilian life and Daredevil. But he was wrong. And Matt does need to take responsibility for the consequences of his actions, not just his own intentions.
  • It's hard to imagine a scenario where Matt and Foggy would’ve come to peace. They were both so amped up that they would need space and time before talking. Foggy had the right idea of getting away instead of trying to force a resolution then and there. However, let's assume that they did in fact have the emotional maturity (and enough hours in the day) to sit there in that bathroom and work through their conflict. When the argument is resolved, Matt and Foggy would've left that bathroom and gone on to witness prep together. They would’ve worked on Frank’s direct examination (or better yet decided not to put Frank on the stand at all) / found other witnesses / moved for a continuance / something. Point is, they would’ve been a team.
    Now as his partner, Foggy had an obligation to hear Matt out at some point, but he didn’t have an obligation to hear Matt out then and there. He had an obligation to take care of their client. If he thought “hearing Matt out” was going to send him down a rabbit hole of drama (which the show seems to suggest), hearing Matt out would actually be doing a disservice to Frank.
    As for Foggy's anger being solely directed at Elektra…well, it is and isn't Elektra's fault. On the one hand, Matt shouldn’t have let Elektra hear anything about the case, which is a huge violation of privilege. But to be fair to Matt, he tried to end the legal talk with Karen as soon as he noticed Elektra. That doesn't change the fact that he’s still the reason Elektra learned about the witness and so, at the end of the day, he’s the one who behaved unethically even if it was inadvertent. More importantly, though, Foggy’s anger in the bathroom scene is a culmination of his anger at Matt throughout the trial. Remember, Matt is the one who pushed that they take this case, and then promptly didn’t show up for planning sessions and missed an opening statement that he volunteered for. Which is a pretty despicable thing to do to your best friend and partner, and also could've left Nelson & Murdock open to a malpractice lawsuit.
    • There's an irony to this scene. Matt tells Foggy about Elektra of his own free will after her actions sabotaged part of their case, and Foggy gets angry at him. But if he lied and allowed Foggy to keep thinking it was Reyes who was behind it, Foggy wouldn't have been mad at Matt. That was character development, and it's really sad that Foggy blew up on him the way he did when Matt was willingly telling him the truth.

Foggy and Karen blowing off Matt

• What would have happened if instead of storming off, Foggy and Karen stopped to hear Matt out about someone getting to Frank? Would they have gone back inside to see if they could fix things? As pissed off as they are, Foggy and Karen had an obligation to listen to Matt.
  • Well what was Matt planning on telling Karen if she stuck around to hear him out? It couldn't possibly be anything close to what was *really* going on with him because he simply wasn’t at that place yet where he realized "if I don't tell Karen that I'm Daredevil, I'm going to lose her". Karen is just done with all of the lies and secrecy; she probably didn't feel any obligation to hear him out. She's expecting him to lie, so to her, there's no point in listening. Karen might have been more willing to listen to Matt if he'd said "No, no bullshit this time, Karen. You said if I ever wanted to tell you what was going on with me, you'd listen, so will you shut up for five minutes and let me explain myself, please? Thank you," or if he had gone to see Karen once she had calmed down. But that didn’t happen.
  • The only way Foggy and Karen would have been willing to hear Matt out after court when he tells them he’s pretty sure someone got to Frank would be if the case hadn’t just taken such a dramatic downfall. Emotions were extremely high for all three of them after Frank’s little show; neither one of them wanted to listen to Matt when he had been flaking on them the entire trial. Their attitude was likely “oh, now you want to get involved?“
  • Obviously Matt would need to have separate conversations with Foggy and Karen, just because Foggy knows things that Karen doesn't. Foggy had already gotten the crash course…he would have wanted A LOT of specific details though. What Matt would say to Karen is trickier: if he was anywhere near ready to reveal his secret to her, he'd do so, but since that's not the case, he’d probably try to ease her anxieties about seeing Elektra in Matt's bed, like, “it wasn’t what it looked like, I swear, I can’t explain everything now, etc.”
  • The court house was a low blow for everyone. For Karen, for Matt and for Foggy. Matt shows up late and he knew he screwed up because of that but he ask Foggy to let him help and he had a plan, until Elektra came and ruined things. Ultimately in that day Foggy wasn't mad about the trial being blown. He was more upset because Matt lied once again and that lie cost them the only way they had to free Frank. When Foggy walked away from him, he was upset by it. He didn't want things to go that way but Foggy was too upset so he let him go. The next day, the tension between them was even worst. Matt knew Foggy was mad at him so he plays the part. They both were so hostile to each other. "You wanted me here" and the way Foggy responded and then the whole Frank meltdown that in Foggy's POV was Matt's fault cause he didn't listen to Foggy's approach and when Matt wanted to explain, he didn't listen. All of it was build up to screw things between them. It's Matt's fault because he couldn't let his Daredevil life not affect his "normal" life and it was Foggy's fault cause he didn't listen to reasons and he wanted things he knew Matt wouldn't do.
    Matt needs to learn that whatever he does affects his friends and pushing them away is not the best choice when you need a supporting system, and Foggy needs to learn that Matt and Daredevil are the same, they are not different personas Matt has created.
  • Blowing off someone is not always excusable, but Foggy knows this is not a normal situation; it isn't a matter of a friend not balancing his priorities right and putting him last. It is far more than that, and literally life and death matters. Foggy should have an idea of what is going on, and if he doesn't he should try to listen if their friendship means that much.
  • Foggy and Karen should have stopped to hear Matt out. Matt deserves a lot of the blame for all the relationships that fell apart in season 2, like 90% of the blame, but there are several points when he does make an effort to give them an explanation and try to work things out and they shut him down. Or moments where it seems like Foggy and Karen are unconcerned with even the possibility of Matt having a justifiable side to the situation. Karen, for her part, doesn’t really have enough information to actually see what Matt's side of things is, but she seems really opposed to considering that side after a certain point. It's understandable for Karen, since she’s pretty deeply hurt and Matt has very pointedly shut her out repeatedly. But it's not as understandable with Foggy because he does have a lot of the necessary information. And his unwillingness to make allowances for Matt’s activities as Daredevil do make it hard for Matt to really open up to him about anything (which in turn, probably is why Matt feels like he can't tell Karen about this side of his life, and also drove him further into Elektra's and Stick's arms. When Foggy learned Matt's secret, it broke everything they had between them, so why should he conclude that telling Karen would do anything else?).
    But at this point in the story there’s so much hurt and anger on all sides that every little thing that happens just builds on and on to the mess that’s happening. And no one can hear anyone else’s side on anything. Hearing Matt out in that moment would have been helpful, but not so much for the things that would be said, but for the mindsets that would inform that conversation. Whatever Matt says about someone getting to Frank is besides the point. But everyone setting themselves aside for a moment to actually talk about what’s going on with everyone else’s side– Matt being willing to talk and Foggy being willing to listen– that might have helped set them back on a better track.
    As for helping with the actual trial, by that point the trial is lost and it’s not getting fixed. But if Foggy and Karen were with Matt looking into something weird about the trial, then maybe they would have been better prepared to deal with Frank’s breakout and the conspiracy that followed. It would have been more like season 1 with the way they chased down leads regarding Fisk. Though there would have been some roadblocks there as well with Matt keeping Daredevil from Karen and still having to deal with the Hand and with Karen definitely still lying to Matt and Foggy about her association with Frank and still going off to do her own thing.
  • Yes, Matt screwed up a bunch in the trial (mostly by not being there), but Karen and Foggy also blame Matt for much more than was actually in his control. Especially when Frank blew up on the witness stand and Foggy blamed Matt for provoking Frank into it. Most likely, Foggy was mad enough at Matt for everything else that maybe he wasn’t thinking clearly through the haze. That it was easier to blame Matt for one more thing.
    Maybe he just needed time to realize that, BUT...here's the thing. Foggy knew that Frank was unpredictable. Remember, they were never supposed to go to trial in the first place. Frank suddenly changing his plea to not guilty was never supposed to happen. Yet, except for Foggy throwing a small accusation at Karen about what she had said to change his mind, the blame was put in the right place: on Frank. Most likely, Foggy was just mad at how the court case ended up, but still…
    In addition, that “you’re not a hero” line from Karen was uncalled for in the situation. Especially when she keeps her own secrets and lies to Matt the couple times he can tell something is off. This isn't to say that Karen is obligated to tell Matt and Foggy about killing Wesley or about her past yet, and yeah she doesn't know yet about Matt being Daredevil, but she should be a bit more understanding of someone else having secrets, considering Matt is understanding of Karen having secrets. The only reason that Matt’s secrets were a problem was that they were obvious. But alas, with emotions running high, Foggy and Karen probably felt it easier to just blame him rather than actually listen. That's what happens when you “lie” for too long. Even though most of Matt’s lies were lies of omission rather than flat out fibs. Other than saying he ran into doors all the time, which were pretty flimsy cover ups at best.
    • It is pretty simple in this case: Matt might have gone off script, but it didn't matter because Frank was always going to take Fisk's deal. If Foggy had been the one grilling Frank, the outcome would have been the same, except Matt couldn't be blamed for what happened. This is EXACTLY what the writers wanted, they wanted Foggy and Karen to be pissed at Matt for supposedly fucking things up, they want it to be something that Fisk maneuvered that contributes to Nelson & Murdock looking bad, and the showrunners had said time and again they wanted Matt to be tortured through the season. And of course, everybody is emotional and some folks will be angry for a long time before they care to examine the chess moves that went into this mess.
    • After Frank's testimony, Foggy and Karen weren't angry that it went to shit, but were angry about that fact that Matt showed up for the first time ever and - instead of sticking to the plan and tactic that Foggy and Karen spent days establishing - did his own thing.
  • Season 2 of Daredevil was characterized by a deluge of shared mistakes and rampant emotions and poor decision-making by everyone involved. While Matt is easiest to blame and made a lot of mistakes, since he's the main character and the one we get the most focus on, what caused this whole mess was a group effort. The fight here wasn’t just about Frank’s outburst; it had been building up all season, with Foggy and Karen growing increasingly frustrated with Matt, and communication breaking down between the three of them. Sure, Foggy and Karen had a professional obligation to listen to Matt, but in their defense, Matt also had a professional obligation to show up in court and be a zealous advocate for his client, which he wasn’t doing. This isn't saying he should have been– after all, his Daredeviling is important – but to Karen and Foggy, that kind of professional relationship clearly no longer applied at this point. The fight wasn’t about Frank at all, which is why Matt’s insistence that someone got to Frank didn’t defuse the situation. More interesting to note is that this fight is a two-parter.
    • It starts off with just Matt and Foggy. Karen doesn’t say a word in the beginning. This makes it easy to analyze, because the reactions are character-specific. Foggy explodes at Matt because he feels let down by his friend, and the loss of the case is just concrete proof that the Nelson & Murdock dream team (and, more importantly, their friendship) has broken down. Foggy wanted nothing to do with this case in the first place (he only got involved because Matt and Karen outnumbered him), and in this moment, Frank is the least of his concerns. Foggy is just upset that Matt has let him down and seems to have lost interest in their friendship– as symbolized by the case– and so he claims to have lost interest as well. It’s not about the case. This is a “You don’t value my friendship anymore? Fine. I don’t value yours either" type moment. It’s a low blow, and certainly not true, but emotions are running high, and Foggy has been really hurt by the whole ordeal and wants Matt to know.
    • Then it's Karen's turn. Karen has also been hurt, but the flavor of her pain is slightly different. Foggy’s need to vent at Matt is based on loss, but Karen’s revolves around deception (and having just seen Elektra in Matt's bed), which is why, when she gets her turn at the punching bag, she pulls the argument around toward his lying. Being lied to is a huge sore spot for Karen (never mind Karen keeps secrets of her own and lies to people all the time), and to be deceived in this way by one of the few people she thought she could trust, someone she really cares about, is painful. This is her first real chance to let all of that pain and anger out, and so she seizes it, dropping Matt from her life (clearly not in a permanent capacity, but she probably felt like it was in the moment) and letting him know that she’s not going to invest any more emotional energy into caring about him. Again, emotions are high in this scene, and Foggy and Karen don’t pull any punches. Again, this is not about the case. This is about the breakdown of these relationships, and the culmination of episodes-worth of tension. (This actually raises a plot hole concerning Karen's role in the last few episodes: she actually does care about Frank’s situation. So why doesn’t she investigate Matt’s claim that someone got to Frank? It’s not surprising that she wouldn’t want to do it with Matt, but it seems like something she would look into on her own.)
    • So in other words, Foggy and Karen didn’t listen to Matt’s claims about Frank in this scene because they are not emotionally equipped to listen, short of Matt interrupting Karen with a "Shut up, Karen, and let me explain myself!" It would have been weird having the three of them team up at this point to help Frank, of all people. Matt would have had a better chance of getting Karen and Foggy to listen if he wasn't always trying to explain himself in the heat of the moment at a time when everyone’s emotions are running high. Unfortunately, due to the way the story is structured, Matt never gets a chance to explain himself to Karen or Foggy because they never do get another quiet moment together from this point until the end of the season. Now, what if Matt had gone about things the right way? That he acknowledged Karen and Foggy's anger, and admitted that he handled things badly? Well, if he did things that way, he could have convinced both of them to hear him out, then they would have teamed up and resolved their issues out of necessity. That kind of plot arc could have worked elsewhere in season 2, and is what happens in season 3 once Matt gets his head out of his ass, but it wasn’t going to happen here.
    • For her part, Karen comes off as one of those people who doesn’t have a lot of friends, but the ones she does have she protects at all costs. Given how things went with Todd, she is also self-aware enough to know when to cut toxic friends loose. Yes, Frank blows up his own trial, but Matt didn’t help. Karen and Foggy put all of themselves into that trial, but when Matt is there he just kind of lets it happen. Matt is not pulling his weight. Yes, his cross-examining of Frank is good, but it’s the bare minimum. Even without his involvement, they were in an unwinnable situation. That there was no way the jury was going to rule in their favor. BUT Matt could have done more. For it to be healthy, Matt would have had to have tell Karen about being Daredevil, and he wasn’t going to to do that. If they had just listened, it would have been a tacit endorsement of his actions.
    • Karen has every right to be pissed at Matt and to tell him exactly how pissed she is. The fact that she didn’t curse him out right there is a testament to her. He does try and attempt it, but then she starts yelling at him and he’s smart enough to keep his mouth shut. But let’s say for argument’s sake, that he did get her to shut up and listen. What exactly is he going to tell her? He’s going to have to explain a lot, including Elektra in his bed. There is no way he could explain himself to her in any coherent manner without telling her that he’s Daredevil, and he’s not ready/willing to do that, which yes is sad, but also the point. Matt is very broken and him not telling Karen about Daredevil is a function of that. Matt and Karen being unhealthy is part of who they are. They need to grow as people and let go of all their secrets before they can reunite and be together both in the literal and biblical sense of the word. Now, if Matt was actually ready to tell her, MAYBE he'd have gotten Karen to listen to him, and things would've been different for the rest of the season.
  • By that point in season two, Matt is getting more and more fed up with Karen and Foggy dismissing him. He is still interested in protecting them, sure, but this is also hitting the episodes where he tells Foggy that he isn’t apologizing for who he is anymore. Matt’s also had several episodes of Elektra’s influence convincing him that the law has its limits, reminding him why he became Daredevil in the first place. Matt's, Foggy's, and Karen’s arcs lead them away from each other for different reasons, but that alienation comes from all fronts. Matt and Karen have doubled-down on their secret-keeping by this point (Matt about Daredevil, Karen about her past and about Wesley), and Foggy is committed to handling everything within the confines of the law, and everybody gets hurt in the end.
  • Foggy didn't really have an obligation to hear Matt out when they were leaving the courthouse. They were both super upset, they’d just lost this huge trial, and...Foggy was well within his rights to walk away as long as he checked back in at some point. However, at the same time, it's also a little unreasonable for Foggy to not listen to Matt outside the courthouse for three reasons: 1) the trial is over, so Foggy can technically afford to spend the time dealing with the drama. 2) Someone getting to Frank is new information to Foggy. Unlike in the bathroom scene where they both had pretty much equal knowledge once Matt admitted to Elektra’s involvement, here Matt is alluding to very important information that Foggy doesn’t know. Which is a problem because 3) hearing that someone got to Frank is a good thing. If Nelson and Murdock could prove it, they could move for a mistrial, restoring the firm’s reputation (somewhat, at least) and giving Matt and Foggy a chance to get back at Reyes after all. Maybe they'd have also exposed Fisk's complicity in convincing Frank to sabotage his defense, forcing Fisk to take extra steps to ensure Frank got brought to him so he could take out Dutton.

"Enough with the dodgy bullshit"

• Right after Matt and Foggy's fight, Karen tried to approach Matt and said, "Enough of the dodgy bullshit, I deserve to know what is going on with you two." What if, instead of trying to dodge her question, that was when Matt told Karen his secret? Like, he just blurted it out. I'm sure the three could've patched things up from there.
  • There's really no scenario where Matt would just blurt out his secret to Karen after his fight with Foggy. Really, he had the perfect opportunity the night before when Karen was over at his place (in fact, when Karen asked him if he believed what Daredevil was doing, and he starts to get all uncomfortable, for a split second it seems like he was going to tell her...and then…not. Honestly, Matt and Karen's first break-up felt like it was done for the purpose of the plots the writers wanted to tell, because they needed forced character separation to do it) So while Matt might not tell Karen that he's Daredevil in the midst of that argument, you do wonder what would have happened if Karen had chased after Foggy. Generally, when people are angry, they tend to inadvertently blurt things out without thinking, and it's very likely that Foggy would have just snapped and told Karen everything in a moment of "I'm sick of covering for you," or he would have clamped down and refused to say anything, putting the ball in Matt's court where it belonged.
  • If Matt did tell her "I'm Daredevil" right then and there, Karen would be angry that Matt was blowing them off for what he was doing, once the shock wore down. That just wasn’t the right time to reveal anything huge, because look at Foggy’s reaction- he and Matt almost got into a physical fight. It wouldn’t have made things better if Matt told Karen all the truth. Now, had he told her the truth the night before when they were in his apartment, as that was a perfect opportunity, then maybe things would've gone better.

Why kidnap Turk?

• The Hand kidnaps Karen and all of these other people that Daredevil has saved. So why in the hell did they also kidnap Turk, when Matt beats him up regularly? Turk is not a victim of the criminal element of Hell’s Kitchen, he IS a criminal who has ties to Fisk, Cottonmouth and Diamondback. I know the writers probably needed some reason for Turk's parole bracelet to come into play, but it's kinda baffling considering who Turk is...
  • Brett told Matt that the NYPD keeps two things: “records of people you put away and incident reports. Records on everyone else. That’s what they were after. They wanted to know everyone you’ve ever saved.” So the arrest reports mention people that the NYPD has collared thanks to tips from Daredevil, yet Turk seems to be the only criminal on that bus, and as far as outsiders who don't know Daredevil's true identity, it'd make no sense for him to care about the criminal element, even though their lives do matter to Matt as much as the innocent ones (as the whole subplot with Grotto showed at the start of the season).
  • Brett does say the Hand wanted records of people Daredevil had put away, as well as people he’d saved, so why would the Hand want the criminals?

Why didn't Stick cremate Elektra?

• If Stick was so worried about the Hand getting Elektra/the Black Sky on their side, why in the hell did he just have her buried instead of cremated? The latter option was used by Danny and Ward after they killed Harold to make sure he wouldn't come back. Surely Stick would think the same thing for Elektra. What, does Stick unconsciously want Elektra to be resurrected by the Hand or something?
  • You can't cremate someone if it's not how she wanted to go. Like sure, Stick can burn her corpse in a desecrating manner but that sounds like something that'll piss off Matt.
  • Most likely, Stick did it out of respect for Matt. Maybe he wanted to go and dig her body up later but the Hand got to her first. Or perhaps he knew that no matter what he did the Hand would prevent her cremation no matter what, so he simply began preparing for the war that was now inevitable.
  • Cremations can actually be pretty expensive, contrary to popular belief. And there's an awful lot of paperwork to fill out.

Matt and Foggy don't bother to research Karen?

• I know we all want to know what Ben Urich found that was so awful about Karen's past. I know Union Allied was unscrupulous, though. Maybe they didn't care about the dirt. Or maybe it's the opposite and they cared about their reputation (after all, Fisk is using them as a front, and a front has to be clean) and found nothing of interest. But at any rate, I still think it's odd for Matt and Foggy to not have researched Karen when they took on her case. Karen is their client. They have an obligation to tell her "You need to be very forthcoming with us, Karen. We need to know what Union Allied will bring up to defame your character." Then with Karen working for them, even if they didn't pay her much or at all, it makes sense for them to know about her. But by season 2, Matt doesn't even know about Karen's dead brother. Just...what? Kevin's death is public knowledge, we saw in Ellison's dossier of stuff Ben dug up on Karen that Kevin's death made the newspapers. Matt and Foggy should know, at the very least, that Karen's brother died in a car accident at age 16.
  Not only that, why didn't Karen fear that Union Allied would pull receipts if this went to trial? She clearly didn't tell Matt and Foggy, her attorneys at the time, a thing, even though attorney-client privilege would protect her. If a journalist can find dirt on you, then you're damn sure the corporate bigwig attorneys at Union Allied would have no problems doing the same. Moreover, Matt and Foggy are smart. They should have found information on Karen without much difficulty, and it was in Karen's best interests to tell them.
  • As seen in season 3, Karen's past is the sort of thing that she probably just buried, so that by legal means you shouldn't be able to find info unless you knew where to look. It's not as simple as checking her past record.

Brett just took a bribe

• Brett taking credit for the arrest of Frank Castle bugged me a bit. Although it was nice seeing him get praised because he is a good guy; he basically took a bribe, which doesn’t match his honest cop character. He was able to arrest Wilson Fisk while sharing the credit with Daredevil. Keeping the credit when unearned seemed out of character.
  • It wasn't really a bribe since Matt said do it so it looks like the cops can arrest people without the assistance of vigilantes. It's more a P.R move to avoid riots and copycats who might be inspired by Frank (since Brett had mentioned "Devil Worshipers" - people inspired by Matt's crusade - in an earlier episode).

The security detail for Frank at the hospital

• How did Elektra’s driver get past the police at the hospital? Matt, Foggy, and Karen had a really tough time, and they’re lawyers.
  • Almost like he is part of a secret organization fighting ninjas.

Resetting Ben's office

• When Ben Urich is fired right before his death, he clears out his office and leaves his position at the Bulletin, potted plant in hand. He’s later killed by Fisk himself when he stops giving a damn and publishes his story on his personal blog. Karen gets to use Ben's old office during season 2 while working on the Frank Castle case, and everything is magically right where he left it. In order for Karen to have access to his old files and clippings, they have to be there. But we literally saw him leave with boxes in hand including the framed front page articles, so how is it that all of his stuff is back right when Karen needs it?
  • With the guilt Ellison has over Ben's death, he probably wanted the office to be a shrine to Ben's memory so he had the office restored, framed front pages and all, to look exactly like it was when Ben worked in it.

"Look, if Matt doesn't want to share his life with me, that is between me and him."

• Then Karen, why don't you go out and grill Matt until he tells you what's going on? And why doesn't Foggy just tell her about Matt's secret?
  • Well, the thing about being in a relationship with someone is that you’re supposed to want to share your life with them, and vice versa. Matt had been bailing on Karen, and was refusing to tell her where he was going, what he was doing, etc. Trying to get your boyfriend to tell you what’s going on in his life shouldn’t be like pulling teeth, which is probably what Karen figured would happen if she did start questioning Matt. He’s supposed to want to include her in whatever’s going on with him, but instead he’s doing nothing but shutting her out, so it's a pretty natural assumption for her that Matt didn’t want to share his life with her. Karen learning that Matt is Daredevil is meant to have a powerful impact on the viewer because Matt chooses to reveal his secret to Karen of his own accord. It'd be less powerful if she grilled him into telling her, because then Matt wouldn’t really be telling her by choice, it would be more like she forced it out of him, and that probably wouldn’t have ended well. It took a few more episodes for Matt to finally figure out that he does want a future with Karen and in order to have that he has to actually let her into his life, not just the safe part of his life, but the Daredevil side.
  • Karen feels at this point, if he’s keeping so many secrets he just doesn’t want to open up to her/share his life with her, and that is a valid assumption. Although it's kinda hypocritical of Karen considering that she hasn't been very open with Matt either, as she's lied to him before and hasn't told him about killing Wesley. That said, if I were Karen, I wouldn’t even want to hear what Matt has to say, because I’d assume it’s another half-assed lie. That’s not to say I wish Karen didn’t confront him earlier or Matt told her what was going on, but again at this point I think Karen’s done. It would’ve been a lot different if Foggy told Karen about Matt’s identity, and I’m kinda glad he didn’t- sure it would be easier because she knows about him now, but it’s so much more significant for Matt to be the one to tell Karen he’s Daredevil.
  • That's a horrible idea with anyone. Matt would probably come to just resent Karen for pushing and pushing, especially if it's something like that where the answer is "I dress up in a costume, lead a double life, and beat the shit out of criminals and undead ninjas" because if Karen had a poor reaction, and most people will, Matt would come to resent Karen even more for pushing him into telling her and then reacting badly because she felt she had the right to know.
  • The thing is that the problem isn't what Matt is withholding from Karen, but why he’s not telling her things. Karen wants to know what’s going on in Matt’s life, but what she wants more is for him to trust her and want to tell her about his life. Pestering the information out of him isn’t going to solve the real issue in their relationship. And up until that point, Karen has grilled Matt a lot, even in earlier scenes like when she visited him while he was recuperating from getting shot by Frank (“well you know I’m blind,” “And you know that I’m not an idiot.”) She’s been hounding Matt and he isn’t telling her anything (because he’s stubborn). And she’d tired of doing it and not getting anywhere. Though perhaps if she'd hounded him further and further, eventually he would've caved and told her the truth.
  • One does wonder what Foggy would've said if he decided to tell Karen about Elektra right there and then in the office. He would have to tread lightly, because the Elektra secret melds with the other secret, which is that Matt is Daredevil. It would result in a conversation like this:
    Karen: What's going on with Matt?
    Foggy: He’s hanging around with Elektra, his ex-girlfriend.
    Karen: Okay. What’s he doing with her?
    Foggy: …..Errrrrr…
    • Subsequently, Karen digs and digs, and this secrecy is a big deal. Either she’d come to the conclusion that Matt is indeed sleeping with Elektra, or they’re both still BS'ing her.

Karen getting kidnapped by the Hand doesn't make sense

• So the Hand are kidnapping people Daredevil has rescued, and this is the reason why they grab up Karen. But Karen was rescued before Daredevil had made a name for himself. So Karen shouldn’t even be in those files - just NYPD files relevant to the whole mess of the Punisher and the Blacksmith. And why don't they kidnap Claire? She was rescued by Daredevil too. Honestly, it feels like a contrived plot device for Karen to be kidnapped, give her a reason to be grateful and thankful to Matt when he tells her his secret at the end of the episode.
  • Matt rescued Karen from someone who was either a direct operative of the Hand, or working for them by way of being hired by Fisk. He didn't kill her assailant, and even if the man wasn't arrested following his discovery outside the Bulletin's offices, or even if he was but he didn't disclose the fight, and the details of how the Bulletin came across the information was never published, the Hand would almost certainly still know that a man in a black mask prevented their agent from killing Karen Page, because he'd probably have told them. People are aware of Matt's activities as early as episode 2 (Claire makes a reference to having treated some of his victims) and I think most of the public know that the black-clad Devil of Hell's Kitchen is the same person as Daredevil. At the very least, the media probably treats them as the same man. So The Hand almost certainly knows that Daredevil rescued Karen Page.

Matt's paintings

• Why is there a painting in Matt’s bedroom? Who is that possibly for? He’s a blind, paranoid, self-hating, antisocial ninja. And it doesn’t look like something Foggy would have put up as a joke or to try to liven the place up. We only see it in the background of scenes, but it fills me with endless questions.
  • Matt may be blind but sighted visitors might want something to admire.
  • It's clear that between seasons 1 and 2, Matt took Vanessa’s advice and got some paintings. Specifically abstract ones with lots of textures, so he can ‘see’ them. It’s the thing where his apartment is now actually a home, instead of just a part of his disguise. Production designer Loren Weeks has said that every single thing on those sets is deliberate. Like when they put jars of raspberry jam and marmalade on the table in a scene, because everything Matt Murdock is red and yellow, like his first costume in the comics, and like his father’s boxing robes.

Why doesn't Karen mention Stick

• I’m still really salty about how in 2x09, Karen told Foggy about seeing Elektra. She chokes out how “there was a woman in Matt's bed” and, Karen should know how that sounds. Why did she leave out how an old man was right there as well? Stick was the one who let her in. Did she think they were having some weird octogenarian inclusive-fully clothed threesome? Karen is better than that. She should have been like "I'm not leaving until you give me some straight answers, Matt," because it's out of character for Karen to take off like that and not grill Matt for answers. But because of her conveniently omitting that information, Foggy probably thinks Matt has been cheating on their friend (especially because he knows a little bit about how Matt gets with Elektra), heaping on another problem with their friendship. If she was like “Hey, so I’m pissed because there was a woman in Matt’s bed. And a rude old man was there too for some reason,” maybe Foggy would’ve connected the dots and had a reaction of "Uh-oh, gotta go ask Matt about his childhood mentor/abuser being back in town." Matt screwed up a lot, but Karen certainly didn't help by implying to one of his only friends in the world that he was cheating on her without providing all the information. If Karen had mentioned Stick to Foggy, maybe the firm wouldn't have broken up because Foggy would've known the full picture.
  • It's possible she thought Stick was Elektra's pimp or something as he was waiting outside the bedroom in full clothes while Elektra was lying in Matt's bed with the bedroom door closed.
  • One possible reason is that Karen just doesn’t want to think about it anymore. This is the point at which she's essentially finished with Matt, finished with their relationship, and finished caring about what Matt’s doing behind her back. Considering everything going on in her life at that point, it makes sense for her to want to cut out that one extra bit of stress, at least for the moment. She just can’t find the emotional energy to care about who Stick is, or to have that conversation with Foggy.
  • This is one of those many moments in season 2 that exist in a vacuum, wherein key details get left out in order to simplify conflicts and streamline the plot. Karen goes to Foggy having only noticed Elektra because having Karen grill Matt and Stick at Matt's apartment and discover Matt’s secret five episodes earlier, would make parts of her story arc harder to pull off. If she knows what Matt is capable of, the "I'm not yours to protect" scene would've gone down a lot differently as Matt would've tried more forcefully to insist Karen back off and let him handle the Blacksmith.

Should Karen come back to Nelson & Murdock?

• Seeing as Nelson & Murdock will likely reform in season 3, (and this might just be WMG here) should Karen come back to the firm if it reopens or should she just stay at the Bulletin? Or should she find a way to keep both jobs - be a secretary for Nelson & Murdock AND also be reporting for the Bulletin?
  • It's very unlikely that Karen will leave the Bulletin. She’s come so far in her own story–further than Matt in a lot of ways–and she really is helping to save the world in her own way at the Bulletin. She says at the diner in the beginning of The Defenders that working at the Bulletin feels to her like what she’s meant to be doing. She seems to be making a career for herself there, and journalism is something Karen has a talent for, and where that takes her career would be interesting. It would really be detrimental to Karen if she had to chose between being who she has become and being who Matt and Foggy wish she could be. She needs to have her own path, parallel to theirs, as a friend and ally, and there probably is more mileage to be gained when you don't have all three leads working under one roof and within ten feet of each other.
    At any rate, it'd be hard for Nelson & Murdock to find a new secretary to replace Karen, and it probably is hard to imagine the office without her, probably no one could match Karen in being the glue that holds the office together. But again, it would be a big step back for Karen to drop her journalism career and go back to being a secretary, not unless something happened that convinced her that doing so would be the right thing to do. So the show hopefully will utilize her strengths in journalism rather than backpedal her career. It's possible they'll do something where Karen can do both jobs, even if it just means she works part-time for Nelson & Murdock.
    But the trio of Nelson, Murdock & Page working together is an iconic dynamic in the show, so more likely, Daredevil will find a new way for Karen to constantly be around Matt and Foggy, using her new skills to aid them in cases, and helping them as she comes into her own as a reporter, doing more or less what Ben Urich did in the comics. And all the while, Matt and Karen become some sort of dynamic duo.
    Also, it would be a bit of a problem for Karen to come back to Nelson & Murdock if she's dating Matt, because two co-workers dating in a three-person law firm is just a recipe for disaster. And Karen deserves to be more than your average heroine who has to choose which cute boy to date (or which violent vigilante to date if we're talking about the people who ship her with Matt vs. the people who ship her with Frank). Not that that’s exactly where she started in season 1, but that’s definitely close to it, as she crushed on Matt while Foggy crushed on Karen, and no one had an open honest relationship because of all the secrets they kept.
  • Karen coming back and rejoining the firm would probably be too much of a step backwards for her as a character, now that she has established herself at the Bulletin. The supporting cast do need to have their own paths to follow for more variety of storytelling. The one thing that does matter is that by season 3, Matt, Karen and Foggy are more mature in listening and being understanding of each other.
  • Whether or not Karen comes back to Nelson & Murdock would mostly depend on how her career at the Bulletin pans out. The impossibility to get used to anything different is key. Meaning even if Nelson & Murdock is to get back together, what would we expect, another secretary? Or will they have no secretary at all? Yes, there are journalists who work two jobs, but it doesn’t seem like the path Karen is intending to take. Collaboration, yes, but Nelson & Murdock + Karen Page getting back together is unlikely. That Matt and Foggy will be associates again and Karen will help out occasionally is realistic, but coming back to being their secretary would be a big step back in her career.
  • At the end of season 3, Karen decides to rejoin the newly re-established firm of Nelson Murdock & Page. While it seems like a step back for Karen, Deborah Ann Woll's explanation in a live Tweet session for this choice was that "Karen's strength is investigation and detail work. She can do that as a journalist but then she is subject to certain rules and as we saw this season that can be stifling for her.^note Like how Ellison was always keeping her from pursuing any leads on Fisk in her capacity as a reporter because Fisk's past actions against her make her vulnerable to showing bias As a freelance investigator perhaps her questionable ethics won't be as big a road block." It also shows strength of character and integrity for both Karen and Ellison: she won't say who Daredevil is, and he won't re-hire her.

What will need to happen if Nelson & Murdock is to reopen?

• So what needs to happen if Nelson & Murdock is to stand a chance of reopening in season 3?
  • It will probably be a while before they would potentially reopen Nelson & Murdock. It would probably be a pretty slow process. First off, Matt and Foggy's friendship would have to be back on solid ground, and Foggy would have to be convinced that Matt won’t totally bail on him again. Off The Defenders, it seems Foggy is really liking his new firm, but after some time, it wouldn't be out of the question that he'll eventually miss the dream that he and Matt had of helping the little guy in Hell’s Kitchen, and be open to giving the firm a second go when Matt floats the idea. Of course, the work dynamic will be a bit better thanks to character development on both ends: On Foggy's end, he gained self-confidence, he’s every bit the amazing lawyer that he sees Matt as being, and he doesn't have to always be in Matt's shadow, and he's come to fully accept Matt's nighttime life. On Matt's end, hopefully he has learned the hard lesson that he can’t half-ass his daylight work as a lawyer without consequences to both parts of his life. If he and Foggy were to mend fences and reopen Nelson & Murdock, he would be a much better partner AND friend to Foggy, because Matt would be better at knowing when he's in over his head, and not shirking his responsibilities. Charlie Cox has said in Con interviews over the last year that the lessons Matt learns in The Defenders will carry over into Daredevil season 3, and one that hopefully sticks is that he realizes it's wrong to withhold information from his friends (Luke, Danny and Jessica called him out on withholding information about Elektra), that isolating himself from the people who know and love him is not the right way to do things, that he doesn't have to be ashamed to admit when he is in over his head and needs help. And that it is wrong to withhold important information from those he cares about and make unilateral decisions without their input.
  • Nelson & Murdock wouldn’t have dissolved in the first place if Matt’s heart had been in it. They would have struggled financially, but being passionate people they would have found a way to keep it together, especially if the Castle case had turned out better for them thus giving them a touch of fame and fortune.
    Post season 2 and The Defenders, both Foggy and Karen currently have well-paying jobs with people that value them and their work, so if they ever were to leave that it would have to be because of something significant. The majority of the audience would like to see Matt and Foggy back at it again, as it was their dream, it was what they’d been working on, but Foggy was always a little bit more in it for the money than Matt ever was. So he really would have to find it in himself. Perhaps when Matt puts his shit together, who knows.
    When it comes to developing a movie or a show, it’s always more convenient to have as many characters as you can in the same physical space, so keeping at least Matt and Foggy in the same office would be a plus depending on what the writers are adapting and why. Still, there’s what the writers need and what makes sense for a character to do.
    As for Karen, considering that she said in the diner scene of The Defenders that working at the Bulletin feels like what she’s meant to be doing, her coming back is less likely. The most likely scenario is her helping Matt and Foggy from the outside as she keeps coming into her own as a reporter, doing more or less what Ben did in the comic books.

  • The breakup of Nelson & Murdock was about the fracture in Matt and Foggy's friendship more than any specific ideology. When they first meet up at Josie's in The Defenders, there’s still a huge divide between Foggy and Matt that doesn’t seem to have been helped at all by Matt quitting. They’re barely on speaking terms. On Foggy’s side, the divide is very much about feeling like Matt doesn’t trust or value him, and feeling like Matt is abandoning him (both by not being there for him during times like the trial and by putting his life in danger). Matt coming in and saying, "let’s end our business", reinforces all of that.
    Matt on the other hand, feels like Foggy doesn’t/can’t understand him and is rejecting him. Foggy wanting him to give up Daredevil during season 2, and Karen having the same attitude in The Defenders, seems to Matt like a rejection of who he is as a person. When things start to go wrong, and Foggy seems unwilling to see Matt’s side of things, it supports this idea in Matt’s head that's been planted there by Stick. And it forms a bit of a vicious cycle: Matt doesn’t think Foggy will understand, so he doesn’t tell him anything, so Foggy doesn’t understand, so he lashes out at Matt, so Matt thinks even more that Foggy will never understand, and with every repeating cycle, this just reinforces Stick's programming. But the bottom line is that Matt feels like Foggy no longer wants anything to do with him. Which is why he makes the move to end the firm. His line “isn’t that what you want” (or something like that) indicates that the decision was less what Matt wanted, and more what he felt like Foggy was going to do anyway, almost like breaking up with someone before they can dump you.
    It possibly could've been avoided if Matt had just gone down to visit Foggy in the hospital after he got shot, or Claire frog-marched Matt down there. Foggy asked Marci if she saw Matt when she came by. It’s the gesture Foggy is looking for to start rebuilding their friendship. But because Matt doesn’t, Foggy thinks Matt has abandoned him again. We know, however, that Matt was sticking close, listening to Foggy to make sure he was okay, and felt that he couldn’t go down, probably because he thought he’d be unwelcome. If Matt had gone down, and Foggy had welcomed him, the friendship and the firm could have survived. But because he didn’t, things went down the way they did. It wasn't necessarily a good decision, but something Matt and Foggy need for the time being.
    The biggest steps to Matt and Foggy repairing their friendship have already been taken in The Defenders. Foggy bringing Matt the suit was a big moment for them, and symbolically was an act of acceptance where he’d been rejecting Matt before that. That moment and that hug clearly meant a lot to Matt and will influence how he communicates with Foggy going forward. The same thing goes for Karen, who seemed to have come to terms by the time of that interaction she had with Trish. For Karen and Foggy, Matt dying is also a big deal (obviously). Foggy essentially pushes Matt away because he’s afraid of Matt dying. And having lost Matt once, Foggy and Karen will be less willing to let stuff drive them apart going forward, no matter what moves Fisk makes against them in season 3. Likely, Matt will have more clarity about who he is and why he does what he does, and that should allow him to communicate better with Karen and Foggy. Some other stuff probably needs to be worked out as well but the whole fake death thing will be big factor.
    As for reopening Nelson & Murdock, well, entering The Defenders, Matt seemed to like the pro bono work, and Foggy seems to be doing well at Hogarth Chao & Benowitz, though it was also hinted that Foggy doesn't really like working there. So they might maintain that for a while, especially since Karen has moved on to the Bulletin, meaning that Nelson & Murdock no longer serves as the central hub of their connection. However, the events of Jessica Jones season 2, Jeri Hogarth's split from her partners, plus some dialogue in The Defenders and Jessica Jones season 2 that all suggest that Foggy isn't that happy at his new job, might play a factor. Since Hogarth left that firm and took all of her clients, there’s the question of which side of the split Foggy ended up on. It's strongly implied from a phone conversation Jeri has in her last scene with her realtors that Foggy and Marci might be following Jeri to her new firm, which might play a part in Daredevil season 3. If Jeri is snatching up new talent for her firm, and Matt is restarting from scratch, he might end up there as well. On the other hand, if Foggy stayed with Chao and Benowitz, it’s more likely that he’s dissatisfied and goes back to working with Matt as soon as possible.
  • We don't know what Foggy's job situation after Jessica Jones season 2 is, however some dialogue between him and Marci during Daredevil season 3 does suggest they're still with Jeri Hogarth, even if Jeri isn't mentioned by name. They're probably also going to get a few of Jeri's clients to restart Nelson Murdock & Page.

What if Nelson & Murdock didn't defend Frank?

• Would the firm have stayed open if they chose NOT to defend Frank Castle? As in, what if Foggy stood up to Matt and Karen when they talked them into taking the case? How would this have impacted the rest of the season?
  • Most likely, not much would've been changed. Say Foggy won, and they didn’t take Frank's case. This wouldn't have changed much as Matt would've tried to help Frank out. So one of two scenarios would happen here: A) Matt would ask Marci to defend Frank and then help Marci in an ‘off the record’ way or as Daredevil, but this probably wouldn't have kept Nelson & Murdock open because Foggy would likely not like Matt ignoring his decision and going around him like that^note something like this did happen in the comics during the Typhoid Mary arc. Matt wanted to help a young boy named Tyrone who was blinded by chemicals, but as Foggy represented the plaintiffs (a company in Fisk's pocket), he had to effectively be a "ghost lawyer" for Tyrone's actual lawyer. Or B) Matt and Karen would take Frank's case without Foggy, leading to the same outcome as in the actual show: Matt missing hearings due to trying to juggle the trial and Elektra, and forcing Foggy to step in to intervene.
  • Nelson & Murdock probably would've still broken up, but it would've been over something else. It wouldn't have been over Matt being unreliable during the trial. Frank would still have been convicted and sent to prison and set free by Fisk, and the Blacksmith storyline wouldn't have involved Karen.

Regarding prison

• Why does Wilson Fisk arrange Frank Castle's escape from prison after his plan to kill him fails? It's obvious he could have easily killed Frank afterwards. Sure, I can get that Fisk wanted Frank out so that there would be no competition for him on the streets when he gets out. But isn't Frank a far more dangerous enemy than any rival gang? Also, what is Fisk charged with? He mentioned he wants to "keep his head down" in prison until he's released but I'd assumed that he was in for life, considering he even killed cops when he escaped from the police van.
  • With regards to the first question, well, it may have to do with two factors that are established in season 3: the first is that Fisk is manipulating Ray Nadeem long-term and is waiting his time until such that Nadeem is in dire straits and will be in a perfect position to take whatever information Fisk has on the Albanians. As for letting Frank out to eradicate competition, well, Fisk wants to set himself up as a one-stop protection shop for organized criminals in the city, and with Frank out there targeting these gangs, he can put the squeeze on them to accept his protection from prosecution.
  • Season 3 establishes that Fisk was convicted of five RICO counts. Now what crimes each of those RICO counts cover is never made clear, since RICO focuses specifically on racketeering and allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes they ordered others to do or assisted them in doing. This means Fisk logistically is guilty for every murder committed by henchmen on his payroll. However, at least one of them covers the bombings and the cops that got killed (as evidenced by the conversation that Nadeem and Hattley have with Blake Tower prior to Fisk's transfer, as well as some of the signs the protesters are holding when Karen is in the courtyard trying to talk to Nadeem).

Fisk's prison influence

• So at the end of season 1, somehow a mob boss who's power and influence seems primarily limited to Hell's Kitchen has managed to use a connection with the FBI to free him from an armored convoy in the middle of a street. A lot of FBI agents and police are apparently in on it, and okay with risking their careers and livelihoods because their boss, who has a connection to Fisk, gave it the okay. It's such a blatant release that everyone will of course be found guilty of being complicit who was in the van with him. Then season 2, his lawyer says he has limited resources and is bordering on broke. He then buys out various prison inmates to be his muscle. Then he buys out the prison guards to have Frank Castle talk to him, he buys out the opportunity for Frank to meet with and kill Dutton, and he buys out all the guards during this sequence to allow them to lock Frank in with the inmates. Then, when Matt visits him, the guards are apparently sufficiently bought out that they let Fisk beat the shit out of a helpless, blind man.
  • The focus on Hoffman in season 1, and Blake before his murder, makes it really clear that Fisk has a good way of manipulating cops with money. That's what Fisk does with the prison guards too: he tells Donovan that he won't need any more money after the one big "purchase" (Frank Castle). He then used Frank to kill Dutton, and took over Dutton's contraband business in prison. Now Fisk has the money he needs to buy off the guards to "escape" Frank from prison. After that, it's just a matter of waiting things out until he's ready to manipulate Ray Nadeem.
  • We don't know how much revenue Dutton's underground ring was taking in every week. What went on is that whatever holdings Fisk had that weren't seized by the government were secured by Felix Manning in Red Lion Bank. It was this reserve fund that was being used to buy the loyalty of Stewart Finney and the Valdez brothers, plus the guard who passed the message to Frank. Once Fisk had Dutton killed, he took over Dutton's ring and and arranged for Felix Manning to launder the new proceeds through Red Lion Bank into shell companies, enabling Fisk to buy the Presidential Hotel. As for the convoy ambush, well, it's implied in season 3 that Tammy Hattley was already in Fisk's pocket during the events of season 1, since she'd been with Fisk for long enough that not even Ray knew she used to have a second child (and that Fisk had said child killed in order to blackmail her).

Questions about Colonel Schoonover

• Why, if Schoonover is the Blacksmith, did he defend Frank Castle in court? Why if he thought so poorly of Frank, as evidenced by his shit-talking towards Frank later or his disregard for Frank and Russo's concern about the ambush, did he invite Karen to his house and say he was happy she was doing the story and telling people about who he really was? How did Frank figure out that he was actually the Blacksmith? Why would a Colonel with plenty of success go into heroin trafficking? And also, did Frank's family die because he refused to cooperate with the Colonel or because Reyes didn't clear the area before the meeting?
  • When Karen interviews Colonel Schoonover later on, Schoonover says that Frank was a very perceptive man. Which means that he thought it would look suspicious to Frank if Schoonover didn't testify or gave false testimony. Furthermore, Frank was likely to go to prison or an asylum anyways had Fisk not freed him. There was virtually no chance of him getting released after the trial and so regardless of Schoonover's testimony, Frank would be out of the way, and no longer capable of coming after Schoonover, Russo, or Rawlins. Which was Schoonover's real issue. Eliminating Frank was about self-preservation and it was about drug money.
  • It's established in Frank's own show that he was specifically targeted over the Zubair tape (which was actually Gunner's): the wildcard was the sting operation that led to the gangs turning on each other, then the Reyes coverup. Remember that Frank was deliberately shot in the head execution style, not in a hail of gunfire like his family.
  • Schoonover's henchmen are the soldiers who served under his command. Some of these men even served in Operation Cerberus, and Frank recognizes them when they call to him from the pier.

Fisk knows Matt is DD or not?

• So Fisk feels his split lip and asks his flunkie to call his lawyer and get all the files Donovan has on Matt? Does that mean Fisk knows Matt is Daredevil or is he just planning on ruining Matt's life?
  • Most likely not. Just one strong punch is probably not enough for someone to put two and two together, although subconsciously maybe Fisk suspects it. To better explain, let's look at Karen in the season 2 finale. When Matt rescues Karen and the other Hand hostages, he strokes Karen's face and she hugs him before leading the other hostages out. In the last scene, he shows her the Daredevil mask. Many people have said that they thought Karen knew Matt was Daredevil when she hugged him in that scene, but her dialogue in the diner scene at the start of The Defenders (2017) implies that Karen didn't know Matt was Daredevil until he told her his secret. In fact, if you pay attention to the reveal scene, the look on her face when Matt pulls the mask out of the bag isn't "Aha!" but rather something like "What? I don't get it," and that is why Matt has to verbally tell her "I'm Daredevil." Back on the subject of Fisk, the one punch Matt managed to throw appears to have kinda subconsciously made Fisk think Matt is Daredevil, but he won't really have his "epiphany" about it until something confirms his suspicions later on (like say, how Matt Murdock and Daredevil went missing the same night Midland Circle fell).
  • Fisk knows the following things:
    • 1. Matt Murdock, despite being blind, can land a punch on a target he shouldn't be able to reliably detect.
    • a) Said punch was an uppercut hard and accurate enough to split Fisk's lip. While Matt being the son of a boxer can explain his instinct to fight, it doesn't explain his ability to punch like that. He was blinded as a child and orphaned not long after, so while his dad may have taught him to throw a straight punch, that was about twenty years ago. Punching properly takes training to learn and practice to maintain, which means Matt was either lucky, or has had some form of training to learn to uppercut like that. Not entirely out of the question, but quite unusual for a blind man.
    • 2. Daredevil's various masks have all covered the eyes. They could have been fabric that allowed him to see while covering his eyes, or something that works like a one-way window in the case of the helmets, but it's something to note.
    • 3. What Daredevil and Matt Murdock's voices sound like. While Matt uses a different register and speech pattern when in-costume compared to when he's not in the costume, and while Fisk hasn't had hugely extended conversations with Daredevil, the similarity could well have registered.
  • So, Fisk knows three things that are not entirely explainable. Human brains are very good at retaining information, and while they don't always let us recall everything, we can still process the subconsciously-recorded information. Which is why Fisk is now digging into Matt some more. He knows something is fishy about the blind lawyer who clocked him. He might not be able to articulate what he thinks is up, but the little things are niggling at him. That Matt Murdock is Daredevil is probably just a wild hypothesis of Fisk's right now, but he'll be considering it as a possibility for sure.
    • The punch ultimately isn't how Fisk figures things out in season 3. The way he figures it out is, well, the same way we saw Shades realize Luke was Carl Lucas in Luke Cage season 1: by seeing Matt's fighting style when Fisk tries to have him killed in the prison, first with the moves Matt uses to subdue the doctor, then the other inmates. The moves Matt performs remind Fisk of the moves Daredevil used against him in both of their fights, Daredevil's fight with Nobu, and the security footage of Matt taking out the cops that accosted him and Vladimir on the night of the bombings.

How exactly does Wilson Fisk plan to make New York a better city?

• Fisk talks how he wants to help the city, to make it a better place. But how? Daredevil helps the people of the city, saving citizens from robberies, assaults etc., but Fisk?
  • To quote the Old Man from RoboCop (1987) at the OCP board meeting: "Old Detroit has a cancer. The cancer is crime, and it must be cut out before we employ the two million workers that will breathe life into this city again." That's the logic Fisk is working on: if you take an area with lots of buildings where things can be hidden (drug dens, brothels, places to dump bodies and kidnap victims and so on), flatten everything and kick everyone out, it's essentially a massive empty lot. Then you rebuild what you want. Once that's done you can control who and what enters. You could build condos or offices with such high rent it keeps those looking for cheap or downtrodden places to hide their crimes from having access (since crime nominally is greater in the lower tax brackets). Plus renovation projects like that bring media attention, providing a larger incentive for those wanting to keep hidden from wandering back in. With the extra security features such as cameras he could install, Fisk could essentially have his chosen area well looked after at all times, especially with all the cops that he owns. Additionally with the police he has in his pocket, Fisk has glorified enforcers who can make an example out of anyone who gets caught making trouble through less than legal means. Now it wouldn't eliminate small-crime completely, but it'd nothing among the levels Fisk sees as the infection that is Hell's Kitchen.
  • He gentrifies it back after the Incident, making the place in his own image with a more controlled organized crime, better living and the criminal element are gone.

Season 2 timeline issue

• The timeline with season 2 is a bit confusing: We know it takes place after Jessica Jones (2015) season 1 due to the references made by Claire, as well as Marci mentioning Jessica in "Kinbaku" and Jeri Hogarth appearing in the finale having dealt with other superpowered people. However, characters mention Fisk being imprisoned several months ago. And the two Fisk episodes imply he hasn't been in prison too long from the moment he got there to the moment Frank arrives.
  • The heatwave mentioned in the first episode suggests season 2 occurs anywhere from early to late summer. The season also seems to take place over one month or a bit longer, with Frank Castle's trial lasting one week at a push. HOWEVER, Frank's hair also seems to grow at an abnormally fast rate if it is within a month. At the end of the season however it gets a bit weird again as in the police station there's a calendar stating the month to be December 2015, which doesn't line up with everything else. So there's one of two possibilities: either that's a proper error, or there was a very large time skip from the final fight with the Hand and Elektra's death to the point Matt decides to tell Karen about being Daredevil, which seems very unlikely given I think he'd want to tell her about Daredevil right away.

Matt, did you not set an alarm clock?

• Yeah, Matt should've been on time when the trial began to give the opening argument. He didn't even seem to care that he had court in the morning when he was bandaging Elektra's wounds. I mean, did he even set an alarm clock? I set several alarms on a Fitbit and my phone to get up in the morning in case one of them fails or I accidentally hit the snooze button. Matt should consider having something similar. Or is he so used to just waltzing into the office whenever he likes that he thought he could do the same with court? Completely irresponsible and unprofessional.
  • That's kinda the point of the season: Matt can't handle both sides of his life. And Foggy, Karen and Elektra call him on it. Matt is a truly flawed character, and in this case, he thinks he can handle more than he actually can. And, for Matt, when it's about Elektra, the ordinary part of his life takes a back seat.
  • The reason Matt probably didn't set an alarm is because he ended up dozing off in the chair in his living room. He probably wasn't intending to end up oversleeping. If he had dragged his ass over to the bed, he'd have heard his alarm and been on time for court. Besides, he's human, and oversleeping, it just happens.

Matt and Stick

• How different would Matt be if Stick never abandoned him and completed his training?
  • Not much at all. The bracelet was inconsequential. Matt saved a sticky ice cream wrapper on virtually the first day he met Stick, meaning Matt was a sentimental kid who kept souvenirs and gave gifts and missed little talks with his dad over the stitch kit (it's the same reason he's held onto all of his father's boxing memorabilia and is partially the reason why he always trains at Fogwell's). Stick's complaint to Matt in the present day is that Matt is too reliant on Foggy and Karen for human contact and couldn't devote himself to a warrior-monk life. If not the bracelet, it eventually would have been a diary or a knife or some knick-knack because Matt was a sweet kid. Even if Matt hadn't given Stick anything at all, nothing would've changed. Matt would never cross his moral line between vigilantism and murder. Once Stick had trained Matt to the point where he would force Matt to kill someone (something he later had Elektra try to manipulate Matt into doing) is the point they would have went their separate ways, as Matt believes almost nobody is beyond redemption.
  • It's possible that if Matt completed his training, he'd have turned out very similar to Elektra. It's possible that he would have still eventually turned from the Chaste to strike out on his own, but he'd still be a fundamentally different person if he'd been under that sort of influence throughout his formative years. Which is why it's a big deal that he doesn't complete his training, because that's really what keeps him from heading down that path of killing.

Fisk and Dutton

• So was it a lucky break that Dutton happened to know the people that killed Frank's family, or was Fisk very calculating?
  • Most likely the latter. We see Fisk using a lot of money and influence to bring a bunch of guards and prisoners into his pocket. This gives him eyes and ears into everything in the criminal underworld, inside the prison and out. In the scene where Fisk is asking Stewart Finney about Dutton's gang connections with the Dogs of Hell and the Kitchen Irish, we see that Fisk has about a half-dozen or so notepads filled with information about Dutton, which suggests Dutton isn't the quietest person in the room.

How differently would season 2 have gone had Karen learned about Matt's secret identity earlier on?

• Put it another way, say that Matt had decided at some point between when Fisk went away and Frank first showed up that he couldn't repeat the same mistake with Karen that he did with Foggy, so he decided to come clean with Karen about Daredevil. How would this have changed season 2?
  • It certainly would have changed Karen's connection with Frank. She wouldn't be as sympathetic to Frank if she knew about him almost killing Matt when he went after Grotto at the hospital, especially at a time when Karen and Matt are beginning to develop feelings for each other. In fact, Karen would have probably been just as opposed to defending Frank as Foggy was.
  • It would've changed things quite a bit:
    • For one, Karen would be much more Daredevil positive learning the secret post-season 1. Her efforts to keep him from being Daredevil in The Defenders are mostly in light of how completely everything fell apart in season 2. But if she’d known at that early point, she would have started out in encouragement of it. However, that might change over time as she begins to see his life in danger.
    • There would be no lies in Matt’s relationship with Karen which removes a lot of the damage there on Matt's end, but Karen is still withholding from Matt. If Karen and Matt are on the same page regarding Daredevil, then the study date scene and their discussions of Frank would have changed a lot. There would have been more openness on Matt's end. But one side effect of that is that Matt would be a lot more upfront about his condemnations of Frank’s actions, maybe even mention how Frank shot him in the head, chained him to a roof and tried to get him to kill Grotto to prove a twisted point. Which is all well and good except that we know there’s a certain extent to which Karen is projecting her own guilt over killing Wesley on to Frank and trying to see justice in killing. So with Matt’s hardline stance on killing even more apparent, Karen may begin to see that as evidence that Matt might not accept what she did to Wesley. So she likely would still have hidden that from him and still be drawn to Frank, which again, she’d still hide from Matt, although she wouldn't have developed as much sympathy for Frank, knowing about how he almost killed Matt.
    • Matt would still be drawn to Elektra. He still would make mostly the same choices regarding Elektra. And while Matt isn’t fully understanding of his feelings for Elektra until fairly late in the season, Karen is perceptive enough that she’d probably start to pick up on them much sooner. This would result in a big situation where Karen would support Matt’s desire to save the city, and the idea that Elektra might be necessary to do that, but she'd see something between Matt and Elektra and not be okay with that. So from her perspective Matt would be unfaithful to her on an emotional level, which is probably true, but something Matt is not self aware enough to know is true.
    • The communication issue is a big part of things and why everything falls apart. And not knowing that Matt is Daredevil makes it impossible for Karen to see where he’s coming from. But Wesley's death is informing most of Karen's actions, and her reluctance to come clean about that would make it impossible for him to see where she’s coming from.
  • There's a big thing her to be considered: while Karen would have known Matt’s secrets, he still wouldn’t have known hers. Even if Matt had told Karen his secret, it's unclear whether or not his judgy attitude towards her would have changed, because however hard he may hit people, he still refuses to kill. So this whole thing is very complicated. Although most likely, had Karen learned of Matt’s secret identity earlier in the season, they would have perhaps remained better friends, Foggy would've worked through his issues about Matt being Daredevil a lot sooner, and Nelson & Murdock would have stayed open. It's also possible that this would've gotten Karen to a point where she'd be comfortable opening up to Matt about her own secrets. This is a big deal, because even though Karen's secret-keeping isn’t given as much screentime as Matt's, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have disastrous consequences. For example, Ben might’ve gotten himself killed by poking at Fisk on his own, but Karen took the decision out of his hands. For a hypothetical, what if Fisk had figured out Karen killed Wesley, and then took it out on Matt and Foggy before she was brave enough to tell them? She endangered both Matt and Foggy by waiting to tell them that she killed off Fisk’s right hand man and bff. And that’s not even getting into all the other secretive stuff she does, like breaking into people’s houses, manipulating the ADA, hiding Frank when he’s a fugitive...all of which could’ve exploded in her face and/or fallen back on Matt and Foggy. This makes her hypocritical when she calls out Matt, and it also communicates lack of trust/respect to both Matt and Foggy.
  • According to Deborah Ann Woll, Karen learning Matt's secret much earlier wouldn't have really changed much between her and Matt. Her stance on why Karen reacted the way she did in season 3 is, "I don't think I'm mad because he's fighting crime. I'm mad because he lied to me and mostly it means that every time he acted like a blind person, he was faking. Every time. That's a huge betrayal. But now I can begin to understand why he did it."
    • That does beg the question. How upset would Karen be about the vigilantism if she knew earlier? She would probably be at least a little upset about it, considering that in The Defenders, she and Foggy likened Matt starting up Daredevil again as if he were a recovered drug addict who'd gone back to using heroin, something that's automatically and unquestionably bad. It probably would have been less of a blow if she knew sooner, though. Perhaps Karen wouldn't have been too on Matt's case about keeping his secrets, because she had plenty of her own.

  • It's hard to tell what would've happened insofar as Karen's relationships with Matt and Foggy. But it probably would have worsened things between her and Matt earlier on if she had known about Matt's secret entering season 2, because it would have put extra pressure on Karen to tell Matt about both her brother and about Wesley. It’s one thing to have both parties withholding, in a kind of silent agreement. It’s another to have one party withholding and feeling guilty, as was the case from the end of season 2 all the way to very deep into season 3. It would have put pressure on Karen to tell Matt her secrets, and that's not necessarily healthy, especially if they are just starting out. It takes Matt choosing to sacrifice his faith and himself to get Karen to sacrifice that part of herself. She truly hates herself for Wesley and for her brother’s death, and everyone she has ever cared about, mainly her dad, has turned their back on her. Then this great guy comes along who not only likes her but sees her as she would love to be seen, innocent, without the weight of her past.
    When Karen comes clean about Wesley and her brother in the church basement in season 3, she chooses to shatter that perfect image to protect Matt from himself. It hurts her to tell him, but she thinks Matt’s emotional/spiritual well being is more important than her feelings. It is a true sacrifice on her part. Matt and Foggy are her only real family at this point. They are the people she cares most about in the world, and to share a secret(s) like that must be painful.
    • It's hard to tell how Karen would've reacted to Elektra coming back into Matt's life, especially when the reveal flashbacks of season 3 don't give us much to work on, and whether or not Matt even told Karen about Elektra. It's possible that Karen would have been okay with them seeing each other, though citing her own experiences with Todd, she probably would have warned Matt of Elektra’s corrupting influence. In a way she has always been his protecting angel, even when she didn’t know he was Daredevil.
    • As for how Elektra would handle this, it would not have been good. Karen and Elektra never really meet and Elektra is very dismissive of Karen in a holier than thou kind of way. She dismisses Karen as an insignificant part of Matt’s life, which has kept him from his true potential, and more importantly, Elektra wants Matt all to herself, and would see Karen as an obstacle to that.
    • The worst part of that is that Karen might not even be able to defend herself against these attacks. She doesn’t know about Elektra so she couldn’t prove Elektra wrong, and Matt does a pretty terrible job of trying to get Elektra to see other sides of Karen. Even if they had properly met, it would have been a very one sided fight. Karen wouldn’t have made negative comments about Elektra the way Elektra does about Karen. There's no doubt that Karen would try to get Matt to see reason, which is one of the reasons he doesn’t tell her. He doesn’t want to see reason. He wants to keep fighting. Elektra would make a lot of snide/mean comments, and Karen wouldn’t hit back. Not that she couldn’t, she just wants Matt to be happy. Matt would try to defend Karen, but he wouldn't have done a very good job of it.

Why didn't Foggy wait for Matt?

• At Frank Castle's trial, the judge actually offered to let Foggy wait on the opening statement: "Mr. Nelson, are you reserving the right to make your statement at a later time?" Foggy decides to just go ahead, when literally he could have waited two minutes and Matt would have been there as evidenced by the fact that Matt was there in time to hear most of Foggy's speech. Even if Foggy didn't wait for Matt on principal, which is fair, he should have at least postponed making the statement so he could actually come up with something decent for himself. That's just basic ethics: with Matt not there, Foggy should have asked for a short break to track Matt down, even if that were to just call him and ask "Where are you, Matt?"

Why only give credit to Brett?

• So Matt tells Brett to take credit for Frank Castle's arrest and falsify the reports to say that Daredevil wasn't there. Question: why don't the news give any credit to Brett's partner? When the police car arrives, Brett is riding shotgun and there's another cop doing the driving, yet the newscast at Josie's doesn't mention her.
  • For driving? Chances are the partner let Brett take all the credit since she saw him come back with the Punisher.
    • Except she was the one who was covering Frank while Brett was busy handcuffing Matt.

How did Matt not notice his suit was missing?

• So we see that Elektra had stolen the Daredevil suit when she made her first appearance, and took the armor to her place, expecting Matt to come over. How did Matt not notice for a full day that his armor was missing?
  • Matt stopped at his apartment to change back into his civilian clothes before meeting with Karen and Foggy at Josie's. It's clear that Elektra had been waiting for a while when Matt came back, so she must have had plenty of time to move the armor to her car.
  • How would he notice it's gone until he needed it? Matt can't go out every night, he barely recovers as it is and can't see if things have been moved in his appartment.

Why is anyone who's seen him up close surprised the Devil of Hell's Kitchen is blind?

• When he wears a blindfold directly over his eyes? Even if he hadn't been physically blind, he'd still be effectively blind because of that.
  • They probably assume that Matt wears a special type of fabric that looks opaque from outside but is actually pretty much see-through. Certainly that's how the actual costume functions so that Charlie Cox can see his marks during scenes.
  • They'll rather believe he can see through the cloth that a blind man can do all that.

Vanessa's poisoning

• So how much of a role did Madame Gao play in Vanessa's poisoning? We know she and Owlsley were conspiring together here, but how much of the plan was Gao's and how much of it was Owlsley's?
  • Gao wouldn’t have cared one way or another about Fisk dating Vanessa if their relationship hadn’t started impacting her work. But much of the scheme was Owlsley's idea. Owlsley had been aware a lot sooner than Gao about Fisk's relationship with Vanessa. When Fisk announced to them that he killed Anatoly, Owlsley seemed to quickly figure out that it was because of Anatoly interrupting Fisk's date with Vanessa. That is the earliest that Owlsley may have considered getting rid of Vanessa: because in his eyes, Fisk blew his top and killed Anatoly because of Vanessa. He just couldn't find a way to pull it off because of the fact that Vanessa was always in the presence of Fisk or Wesley.
  • It was after Nobu got burned alive that Gao entered the scheme. Murakami learned of Nobu's death, and wanted revenge, blaming Fisk for the death of his apprentice and setting back their plans for Midland Circle (which is technically true. Fisk may never have laid a hand on Nobu during the fight. But he was responsible for orchestrating several machinations to lure Matt to the dockhouse, with the intention that Matt and Nobu would take each other out). So Murakami contacted Gao and told her he wanted Fisk to pay for this. Gao, who felt by this point that Fisk had been getting sloppy, agreed. However, Gao also realized that they couldn't kill Fisk because he'd just made himself public (and the Hand have thrived on staying in the shadows), so it had to be someone Fisk had a strong personal attachment to. Conveniently, she recalled Owlsley and the dislike he'd expressed for Vanessa, and she approached Owlsley. Owlsley got the idea to poison Vanessa and a few guests at the gala (with the extra bodies being so that Fisk would think he was the intended target). So Gao whipped up a batch of the same poison she'd given to Harold Meachum 13 years earlier to kill Danny Rand's parents, and slipped Owlsley a few packets of poison ground up into a fine powder. Owlsley spent the gala slipping poison powder into Vanessa's glass as well as a few other random guests he mingled with afterwards.
  • Owlsley is just an accountant. He doesn't have the skills or men to poison people by himself. He probably would have been happier with Fisk distracted with Vanessa because if Fisk is focused, he'll uncover Owlsley's duplicity. But he wanted to have Gao and before Nobu backing him so he can avoid retaliation.
  • Owlsley and Madame Gao poisoned Vanessa as a way to get back at Fisk for looking weak in their eyes. In fact, Leland had already considered Fisk weak even before the Nobu matter, way back when Fisk killed Anatoly. After learning about Nobu, Leland went to Gao. When Fisk confronts him about it in the season 1 finale, Leland at first denies his involvement and pretends he knows nothing about the attack. That is, until Fisk points out that Leland is sweating profusely despite it being cold outside, forcing Leland to confess to his part in the scheme and in turn threaten him with the reveal that he's got Detective Hoffman stashed as a bargaining chip. Then Fisk kills Leland in retaliation. Nothing was mentioned as to whether Murakami played a role in this, which makes sense since the writers didn't have the Hand planned out from the start and were more or less improvising as they went along (the earliest Murakami came into existence was when The Defenders scripts were written in the summer of 2016, more than a full year after Daredevil season 1 had aired). It wouldn't be a surprise, though, if Murakami blamed Fisk for Nobu’s death. After all, someone had to have arranged for Nobu to be resurrected in between Daredevil seasons 1 and 2.

Elektra's sabotage: unintentional or deliberate?

• When Elektra threatened the medical examiner in Frank's trial, was she doing that as a misguided attempt to help Matt out with his case, or was she doing that as part of Stick's "Isolate Matt from his friends" campaign to bring Matt back over to his side? IIRC, when Matt confronted Elektra about it, she claims the former, but there's plenty of evidence to suggest the latter, and I'm kinda confused (then again, he's called "Mystic Stick" for a reason).
  • It was intentional sabotage. If Elektra had actually wanted that testimony to help Matt’s case, she would have made sure there was no chance of Tepper mentioning her. Unless she did threaten to kill him or something if he brought up her coercion, and he went ahead and did it anyway (which seems uncharacteristically gutsy of him), given that the sabotage happened offscreen, it's unclear where Elektra wanted him to mention her, or she didn’t care one way or the other. It’s also tough to say whether this was Stick’s idea or Elektra’s, but that's irrelevant because at that point their goals were the same: they want Matt to focus fulltime on fighting the Hand. By pressuring Tepper, Elektra was setting up a Xanatos Gambit: if Tepper revealed Reyes’ illegal activity without saying he was coerced, Nelson & Murdock would win the case or at the very least, get a mistrial for Frank, and Matt could stop obsessing about it. If Tepper mentioned Elektra threatening him, Nelson & Murdock would have their case greatly damaged, and as a bonus, Matt’s friendships with Foggy and Karen would be damaged. Either way, the distraction of Matt's legal career would have been removed.
  • It wasn't intentional, Elektra is that short sighted, she thought bringing Sweeney for an execution would be a good gift for Matt and her whole M.O during her dealing with the Hand is intimidation through violence. She likely didn't know nor care it would be seen as duress in court because she is an assassin, laws bore her. Plus if she didn't the expert would probably never reveal the story at all since he was told to be silent years ago and all Matt can do is call him a liar, which won't lead too much. And even though Sticks and Elektra are that dafts at time they should know by now Matt doesn't like getting his social life wrecked so it's a bad way to have him side with them. It's like if they kick him in the balls enough he is gonna join the Chaste. Elektra can be carefree enough to think that would help Matt but making it a big gambit where Matt loves her more for it is yandere territory.
    • First off, Elektra didn't bring Roscoe Sweeney to Matt as a gift to him. She brought him to Matt because Stick wanted to test whether or not Matt would be capable of killing on command. They spell this out in the flashback in The Defenders when Elektra meets with Stick after her failure at the mansion. As for Tepper, well, if Elektra hadn't gotten involved, Matt would have tried to get Tepper to break down on the stand and admit to altering the records on Frank's family. With the right cross-examination, and assuming his head was in the game, Matt could have done it.

Why go to work with Hogarth?

• Seeing as Hogarth and her partners are crooked, why would Marci (and later Foggy) go to work for Hogarth Chao & Benowitz?
  • Marci may not have had much of a choice. After all, it's public knowledge in the legal community that she was involved with Landman & Zack, and that name has been tainted as a result of the senior management being indicted for being in Fisk's pocket. It's possible that Hogarth Chao & Benowitz was the only law firm willing to overlook Marci's past associations and give her a job; which is a bonus for Jeri, seeing as hiring Marci would allow the firm to have a nice little distraction from the scandal concerning Wendy, Pam, and Kilgrave. Foggy went to work for Hogarth for much the same reason, because Nelson & Murdock was struggling financially and, again, on Jeri's part, she could once again take a little attention away from her involvement with Kilgrave.

Pretending to need a translator

• Why was Fisk pretending to not speak Mandarin?
  • He does it to get an edge on those he does business with. When someone doesn't know you understand what they're saying, they might let slip important information in front of you that they thought you wouldn't understand. Not only that, but they'll be more honest about their sentiments when during meetings you almost always have to keep up the facade of politeness. In the situation involving Madame Gao this never had any significant effect, since Gao knew that Fisk could understand her perfectly, and she doesn't seem the type to hide her opinions anyways.
  • In addition, this obfuscation can be a useful trick in business negotiations and the like, because you can compose your response while the translator is translating. It gives you the appearance of being decisive because you don’t have to take long pauses to think prior to responding. Also, most people just prefer to speak their primary language (look at second generation citizens glide between English and their mother tongue when talking to their families, sometimes mid-sentence).
  • Besides the above, Fisk is also a very introverted person and mostly keeps to himself, with Wesley being his mouthpiece. Not speaking the language gives him a good excuse to not be as present for meetings. Vanessa helped him overcome part of his shyness and he doesn't pretend not understanding Nobu or Gao in later episodes.

Matt and Marci

• What exactly is Matt's relation with Marci like? It's hard to tell because they don't interact once on-camera at all during the first two seasons (in fact, Marci exclusively interacts with Foggy, and only once gets to interact with Karen).
  • Matt and Marci most likely dislike each other. It's not outright hate, or anything, it's more that they just…don’t get along. It's like a lesser version of the ideology clashes that Matt has with Frank and Elektra, just with views of the legal system instead of whether killing people is the right choice. Matt is an idealist, and Marci is a pragmatist, so each likely finds the other somewhat annoying. They both like Foggy, and they can be civil to each other for Foggy's sake, but they probably wouldn’t be friends on their own. Unlike other white collar lawyers like Ben Donovan and Jeri Hogarth, Marci actually has morals, but it's also implied that she is very aware (similar to Jeri) that she's at a big disadvantage, being a woman in a highly competitive and very male-dominated field. In order to be perceived as equally competent to her male colleagues, she needs to be more ruthless, which would make Matt’s idealism doubly annoying to her. Even if Marci wanted to operate the way Matt does, she'd have a hard time pulling that off and doing so without being seen by the cutthroat legal world as ineffectual, a “soft” woman. She sees Foggy's abilities, like when he demolished her arguments on the tenement case or his work in Frank Castle's trial, and wants him to be a success, and she probably sees Matt as a bad influence on Foggy in that regard, in the sense that if Foggy were more like her, and less like Matt, he would be more successful. She also probably finds Daredevil kinda hot, and would be horrified by that fact if she ever found out it was Matt.
  • There are some hints that Matt and Marci have always been a bit wary of each other because they are both type A people who are capable of being ruthless in a way that Foggy isn’t and both have hard shells. Marci not as much as Matt, but they’ve both had to deal with adversity throughout life. They’ve both had to prove themselves as smart and capable, Marci dealing with misogyny, Matt with ablelism and pity, and they’ve both spent plenty of time grinding their teeth as people condescend to them and then turned around and gone in for the kill. They’re both very driven. And they both need Foggy because he has this gentleness and ability to nurture people and show emotion that doesn’t come as easily to them, especially not to Matt, but to Marci as well. They can trust Foggy.
  • They are indifferent. Marci even says she doesn't really care that Foggy had a dispute with Matt when they sleep together but is a bit surprised since they were thick as thieves. There is no big cold reading or ideology clashes, because Matt and Marci just don't spend time together so they don't talk to each other besides formality. It's like Matt's opinion of Ellison and vice versa: there is none because they aren't acquainted outside of both working with Karen.
    • That said, since Foggy dated Marci in law school, one presumes she did spend some time with Matt in addition to Foggy.
    • The same way he spent time with the girl that talked punjabi or how Foggy spent some time with Elektra. Not much to build an opinion aside how the common link see the other.
    • We know in season 3 that Marci has been there for Foggy through his nightmares about Matt and Midland Circle, but it's hard to tell what her opinions of Matt are and vice-versa. Though that has more to do with the fact that Marci is a satellite character who's only relevant to Foggy's story.
  • We don't really know anything about how Matt and Marci get along or what they think of each other because Marci isn’t that important of a character. She’s a supporting character and supporting characters have specific roles that they fulfill. Marci's role is be a sort of personification of the life that Foggy has made for himself. She’s the glimpse into his life that’s not tied up with Karen and Matt. She’s not a flat character or poorly written. They develop her nicely from where she was in season 1, and they do so very neatly in a pretty short space of time, believably taking her from someone who seemed somewhat shallow and vain to someone who is fairly likable and who you’re glad that Foggy has built a life with.
    In this regard, Marci is similar to Ellison. Ellison doesn’t get shown much beyond his working relationships with Ben and Karen, and his functional role with the Bulletin. We don’t develop the relationship between Ellison and Matt or Foggy. Even more significant characters like Stick and Elektra don’t branch out much beyond their roles; notice how Elektra has no interactions with Foggy or Karen, and Karen conveniently forgets about Stick being present when she tells Foggy about seeing Elektra in Matt's bed.
    Things would be different, though, if the season were longer. If Daredevil was a network show with 20-23 episode seasons, Marci's role would be expanded and they would mix up who she interacts with. 13 episodes is pretty short and the show has to be economical with its time and relationships. And there are a lot of other characters or ideas or relationships that are better dedicating extra time to before branching out Marci’s role in the story. And as it is, the stakes are so intense and the situations so extreme that it's hard to bring her in more. Like if you want to give Marci a scene with Matt, where would it go? In season 2, Matt was busy fighting the Hand with Elektra and Stick, and in season 3 he spends the vast majority of the season living in a crypt and not really having a life as Matt Murdock, so it would be hard to have him pause in either season from beating up criminals in a mask long enough to have a scene with Marci Stahl.
    Though it's possible this would've been different if Daredevil season 4 was greenlit. If season 4 happened, it's likely that we would have Marci interact with Matt and Karen. Maybe not necessarily separate from Foggy, but in the sense of how she ties into and complements the Avocados trio's dynamic. Season 4 would also presumably have more lawyer stuff, something season 3 has relatively little of, since Matt isn’t a lawyer and Nelson and Murdock is closed. And when that’s going on it’s easier to bring Marci into the plot a little bit.

How did Matt find the garage where Claire was being held?

• Matt asks Santino if he heard or saw anything that can help him locate Claire. Santino mentions that he saw them get into a cab, belonging to Veles Taxi. How did Matt then locate the garage?
  • Santino probably recited the general location of the Veles garage. Matt went back to his apartment, changed into his costume, then went to that general area and used his heightened senses to locate the sounds of Claire.
  • He googled it. Taxi garage are not kept secret.
    • He didn't have time to Google it. Even with his phone having audible cues, there wouldn't be enough time. Having a name should be enough for Matt to work on. After that, he most likely went around beating up people until he found someone who knew where Veles was located.

Matt and Fisk's radio conversation

• How did Matt get the radio for his conversation with Fisk? And how were they able to have such an uninterrupted conversation?
  • That's Officer Sullivan's radio. It got loose when Matt knocked Sullivan out after he called for help. As for having the conversation not get interrupted, Fisk had an entire channel cleared just for that. When the ESU team arrives and are piling out of their truck, Detective Blake is saying into his radio, "We've got ESU on the scene. Everybody switch your radios to Channel 5 and maintain radio discipline." To the non-corrupt cops and bystanders, it's supposed to look like Detective Blake is clearing the usual radio channel to be used solely by the ESU team, not so that non-corrupt cops don't overhear Fisk's conversation).

They just forgot Officer Sullivan?

• Why does no one ever bring up Officer Sullivan's death after the fact? Everyone talks about Detective Blake and the two uniformed cops who got shot alongside him, but no one ever talks about Sullivan, whose distress call for help was the whole reason Blake and those other cops were there in the first place. (Not to mention, he was a rookie who had only been on the job for six months, which should be pretty big news)
  • They didn't forget him. Most likely, he's considered another name on the list of bodies left by Vladimir. Detective Blake got more attention because he got shot on live TV. The only ones who know what really happened to Sullivan are Matt and the ESU team that killed him.

"You'll find her, Matthew"

• In the season 2 finale, before going off to the warehouse where Karen and the other people were being held captive by the Hand, was Elektra truly acknowledging how much Karen meant to Matt when she said "You’ll find HER, Matthew"? Or was it more manipulation to get him to chill out and find Nobu? Because she doesn’t want to even consider saving Karen (or anyone else) when they arrive.
  • It's hard to tell. She knows she’s dying. It’s a bit out of character, because of what happens later in The Defenders, but that might have just been poor planning on the writers part. Had her death been permanent that would have been a bigger deal. The events of The Defenders make this scene a bit muddled. If Elektra was releasing Matt from their toxic relationship then this would make sense and have impact, but they continue their weird dalliance in The Defenders. That’s admittedly a problem with all of the MCU movies/tv shows, in that there are almost never real consequences EVER. Ever since Coulson was brought back to life for Agents of SHIELD, death has become kinda meaningless, because no one ever permanently dies unless the plot requires them to.

Stick's trainings of Matt and Elektra

• I Matt went blind at age 9 and trained for very little time with Stick, but what about Elektra? She trained before or after Matt with Stick? She looks older than him. Or did Stick train them in parallel?
  • It seems most likely that he trained Elektra first, but that's inferred from context and implications, rather than anything concrete. First, young Elektra’s fear in the flashback in season 2 episode 12, her fear that Stick will replace her, feels like a little Matt reference for the audience. It also suggests that– to Elektra’s knowledge– Stick didn’t train anyone directly before her. Of course, Stick likely wouldn’t have mentioned Matt to her anyway (yet), so this isn’t actually a strong piece of evidence. But it’s also clear that Stick trained Elektra for quite some time, since she’s attached to him and sees him as a parental figure. Yes, these kinds of attachments can grow quickly, particularly for a kid in an emotionally vulnerable situation (as little Elektra likely was), but their flashback interactions, to us, speak to a relationship with years behind it. With that in mind, and given the fact that Elektra and Matt are probably around the same age, it seems far more likely that he trained Matt later.
    We can also draw some conclusions from Stick’s character arc. As we see in the flashbacks, he feels a deep attachment to Elektra, and is not hesitant about showing it. But with Matt, he seems to check himself, having now realized that this level of attachment is harmful and dangerous. He is far more distant, and shuts the whole thing down the moment he realizes that the relationship is getting too emotional.
    It makes far more sense for his rejection of young Matt to take place after his experience bonding with Elektra, rather than before.
  • It's also very much possible that Stick trained Matt and Elektra at the same time. They’re approximately the same age (Lily Chee, who plays young Elektra, was born in 2003; Skylar Gaertner, who plays young Matt, was born in 2004. Depending on when in the year, they have either a few months or a year’s difference in her favor. Charlie Cox and Elodie Yung have roughly the same age difference, so it's plausible that Elektra is at most, a few months or a year older than Matt). Stick left Matt when Matt was 12, and Elektra seems to be 12 or 13. Stick trained Matt for two years. Elektra was clearly further ahead in her training than Matt was. This means that she was either A) with Stick longer, or B) had more intensive training because of all the people she was with. Either way, unless Matt and Elektra are supposed to have a larger age gap, Stick was training them both at the same time.
    If this is the case, then Stick left Matt first, because the wrapper incident was not expected. That was an instinctual, guttural reaction that was basically his version of "feelings detected. Abort! Abort!" and he definitely screwed up with how he left Matt. If he had done this before, it's likely that even if he was taken off guard, he would have dealt with it better. Parting ways with Elektra was planned, and thoroughly. Even aside from getting her into a good family, his goodbye to her was blatant manipulation (and from a strategic standpoint what he should have done to Matt). The primary thing he does is reinforce her loyalty to him, while with Matt he destroys that loyalty.

If someone other than Foggy had found Matt after the Nobu fight

• If it had been Karen, not Foggy, who found Matt after the Nobu fight, what would her reaction have been to learning Matt's secret that way?
  • The sense of betrayal Foggy feels is greater than Karen would have felt at that point, as Matt and Foggy have know each other so much longer. Karen already had a crush on the man in black. He had saved her life already. And in the actual continuity, we saw in the flashback at the start of season 3 that Karen was torn—she knows she should be angry at Matt for betraying her trust and bailing on her and Foggy during Frank's trial, but Matt saved her life twice. That would probably be the case here too: she'd initially be angry at Matt, but would've eventually gotten over it, and Nelson & Murdock would’ve easily survived. In fact, knowing that Fisk is responsible for Matt getting hurt, Karen would probably still go visit Fisk's mother and the events leading up to Wesley's death would still happen.
  • Karen would definitely be less pissed than Foggy. She would've been surprised and ask for explanations but she would've understood. After of course the whole bit with Claire coming to stitch Matt up, the scene would be similar to how she reacted when we saw the flashback in season 3 of Matt revealing his identity to her, but stretched out over an entire episode. She would have much more of a moral struggle hiding it from Foggy, as even though she knows the importance of secrets (since neither Matt nor Foggy know the truth about her brother at this point), she knows how much Foggy cares for Matt. Not only that, but Karen's only known Matt for about a month tops, whereas Foggy had known Matt for five years. On the flipside, though, with this openness, she'd probably have told Matt about killing Wesley as soon as it happened, and maybe also about her brother, though circumstances would've still ensured Matt couldn't stop Fisk from killing Ben (like, maybe his visit to Gao's warehouse would've happened concurrently with Fisk's deadly visit to Ben). In season 2, Matt and Karen's relationship would be in a much stronger place by the time Elektra shows up, so Elektra would probably have more difficulty trying to convince Matt to join her and Stick in the fight against the Hand. Depending on how that goes, Karen would be part of that investigation in addition to the investigation into Frank, and perhaps Matt and/or Elektra would teach her how to fight. Depending on what changes in season 2, Matt might not be as inclined to remain behind with Elektra in Midland Circle in the climax of The Defenders, and season 3 would be changed in that Matt and Karen would've worked together from the start to pursue Fisk.

Why visit Fisk

• What did Matt think was going to happen, threatening one of the two people Fisk cares about? He had to know Fisk didn't make idle threats. He shouldn't have been surprised when Fisk set that trap for him in season 3 at the prison.
  • At that point, Matt just wanted to catch Fisk off guard, keep him talking. Fisk had the upper hand, he was done talking, and Matt used the only thing that he could think of that would get a reaction. He just didn't expect Fisk to have such a volcanic reaction. Consider that Karen makes her visit to Fisk in season 3 for those very same reasons: she wants to catch Fisk off guard and provoke him into making a mistake. At first, she hopes that mentioning that she spoke to his mother will get him to react. Then when that fails, she uses Wesley's death, and this causes Fisk to try to kill her there (with Foggy's intervention being the only thing stopping Fisk from doing so), then settling at ordering a hit on her courtesy of Dex.
    • There's a bit of apples and oranges when comparing Matt's visit to Fisk with Karen's visit. In Karen's case, it was her whole plan to provoke Fisk until he snapped, so arguably she is even more reckless than Matt. On the flip side, at least she had a plan, whereas Matt was merely improvising. He was lucky Fisk didn't kill him, but it's also very likely that Matt would have started fighting back properly had Fisk gone further, unfortunately revealing his particular talents in the process. Which eventually happened anyway when he made his visit to the prison.

---