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Why the Albanians?
- Why would Fisk pick the Albanians as the gang to snitch on when he needed to manipulate Nadeem? Matt asks Michael this question at the prison, but Michael doesn't exactly give a straight answer.
- It's a case of "Always a Bigger Fish". This is evident in the scene in episode 2 where Nadeem and SAC Hattley meet with Blake Tower and outline the plans for Fisk's witness protection. Essentially, Fisk is a very dangerous criminal, and he did a lot of heinous acts like order the murders of cops, blow up a bunch of buildings, and decapitate a Russian with a car door. But the Albanians happen to be an organization that the FBI have been trying unsuccessfully for years to bring down, so when he's offering information about them, it means that Nadeem (who has been made desperate by Fisk's other machinations) is more likely to accept any information Fisk provides. As Nadeem says in that meeting:Ray Nadeem: You're right. Wilson Fisk is a piece of shit. After every time I'm in the room with the guy, I want a shower. But let's talk about the Albanians for a minute, what they have done. Four dead NYPD officers, 12 more riding desks with disabilities. One hundred and seven civilian murders. And even after five task forces over seven years, to the tune of $11 million, we got zero. Those are some shitty numbers. But here's another one. With Fisk's intel, we beheaded the Albanian syndicate in one day. One single day. No loss of life, no injuries, no mayhem. I mean, look at the take. We got their documents and data, and we're gonna get their money. Best of all, we bagged corrupt officials whose protection they were selling. A lot of cases they've been interfering with may finally get somewhere. Look, none of us like it. It makes me want to throw up to admit it. But New York is safer tonight because of Wilson Fisk.
- To some degree, it may have also been convenience, as we know from Matt's visit that the Albanians have a huge presence at Rikers, enough that they were able to flourish even in spite of Fisk controlling so many guards and inmates.
- And they were the first in his targeting of criminal organizations that specifically work with corrupt officials. Fisk might have had a reason for hitting the Albanians first, or maybe he was just going alphabetically. The whole point, though, as Foggy almost literally illustrates, is that he's using the FBI to put the worst of his criminal competition out of business, then use all his corrupt connections to offer protection to the highest bidders, essentially making him a one-stop shop for bribery and protection from whatever's left.
- It's a case of "Always a Bigger Fish". This is evident in the scene in episode 2 where Nadeem and SAC Hattley meet with Blake Tower and outline the plans for Fisk's witness protection. Essentially, Fisk is a very dangerous criminal, and he did a lot of heinous acts like order the murders of cops, blow up a bunch of buildings, and decapitate a Russian with a car door. But the Albanians happen to be an organization that the FBI have been trying unsuccessfully for years to bring down, so when he's offering information about them, it means that Nadeem (who has been made desperate by Fisk's other machinations) is more likely to accept any information Fisk provides. As Nadeem says in that meeting:
Fisk's plan for Luke and Frank
- Even assuming Fisk was able to kill Matt in the taxi, how does he expect to be able to take over the city when two of the most dangerous people in his world will be gunning for him once he tries? There is literally an invulnerable man in control of Harlem, who Fisk knows is a friend of Daredevil's and won't stand for any power plays towards Harlem. Fisk is strong, but Luke can steam roll through any defense he puts up. Also, there is literally a walking death machine named Frank Castle, who definitely outclasses Dex in terms of being "gifted", who Fisk deliberately put back on the street, and promised to kill him in the future. Fisk's trajectory was bound to bring him into conflict with both of these basically unstoppable foes.
- That's assuming the death got publicly reported. Which it probably wasn't. Not to mention that Frank wouldn't be able to go after Fisk when Fisk is guarded by the FBI and there's no outward knowledge of the agents being corrupt. And Luke wouldn't want to go after Fisk lest Fisk just declare a full-out attack on Harlem.
- Season 2 of The Punisher shows that officially Frank is dead and apparently the circle of people who know he isn't is small enough that even Fisk, connected as he is, wouldn't have the means to find out. If he did know, he might be willing to take his chances on dispatching Dex to target Frank, with Dex having the benefit of both the Daredevil armor and maybe some hired gunmen behind him. Frank is, after all, only human. An extraordinarily dangerous human, but human all the same. And if Dex wasn't enough, well, the other FBI agents would have put up enough resistance to put Frank down and allow Fisk to spin himself as a martyr. As for Luke, well, perhaps Fisk would stay out of Harlem (seeing as Harlem is primarily black and we don't see any black individuals in high-ranking places in Fisk's organization save for his corrupt attorney and one of the crime bosses he begins taxing in episode 9), except one of Fisk's clients is Rosalie Carbone, who hails from the Italian parts of Harlem, so the best solutions would be drowning, poisoning, or maybe at a push emptying a few magazines of Judas bullets into him. Because why give up on a good idea just because one didn't work.
- Fisk dealt with the Hand and Madame Gao. Even if he didn't know about their ability to come back from the dead, he probably wouldn't have cared so long as they were good earners.
- Frank Castle was believed to be dead after the events of Punisher S1, and he isn't revealed to still be alive until S2. Daredevil S3 takes place in-between both seasons, so as far as Fisk is aware, Frank died.
Sympathy for Kevin
Kevin, you burned Todd's trailer down, presumably with all his possessions, and didn't expect him to be super pissed and try to kill you? Were you thinking straight or not?
- He likely expected him to be angry and want to fight. He probably did not expect attempted murder.
- Yeah, he is an immature teenager, despite being the more level headed one of the siblings.
- He likely expected him to be angry and want to fight. He probably did not expect attempted murder.
What was Matt's legal status?
- After the events of The Defenders, Matt was implied to be considered missing. At the start of season 3, Karen is paying Matt's bills and rent which leads the landlord to believe he's alive. Meanwhile, Foggy's family and Marci all talk about Matt as if he's dead and not missing. When Fisk tries to frame Matt as an accomplice, the feds go straight to Matt's apartment without so much as a "he must have faked his death" and since they went to his apartment first, it shows that they didn't pay much attention to his status as a missing person. Later, Matt and Foggy sit down with DA Tower to represent Nadeem as if Matt had been practicing law all this time, and Tower never mentions Matt being a fugitive, dead, or missing. With all this weirdness, one would think he would have been suspended from practicing law, if not disbarred. It's even more strange that Matt is hanging out at the end with Foggy's family with no apparent story to tell them as to where he's been all this time.
- Not sure what the exact laws in New York are, but generally someone has to take a specific action to have someone declared missing or dead. Even in cases where a person has died in normal circumstances. It’s not automatic. Matt has no next of kin and his family surrogates- Foggy and Karen, are in denial about his likely fate for months at the start of the season (in order to reduce the chances of people connecting the dots between Matt and Daredevil). As for the license, nothing suggests that any legal action has been taken against Matt, or if his law license has gone dormant or lapsed, and he has not been gone long enough for that to happen anyway.
- Exactly. Matt was never officially declared missing, and him not practicing law for a year or so is not enough to lose his law license.
- It was specifically the FBI that was after Matt as a person of interest, but that was solely on the information given by Fisk. When they use the cops to put out a BOLO on Matt again, that is on Nadeem's orders, who at this point is neck deep in Fisk's manipulation plot. Nadeem is so desperate for his arrangement with Fisk to pay off he is blindly going after anyone Fisk names without using common sense. By the time episode 12 comes around, though, Nadeem has seen the light. He's seen that Fisk has corrupted Dex, and has blackmailed Hattley and others into working for him, and Nadeem himself is now an accessory to Father Lantom's murder (having driven Dex to the church). Now he is already ready to flip on Fisk. Both Brett and Tower have seen and spoken with Matt, Karen, Foggy and Nadeem, and are on their side. On top of this, a lot has happened to overshadow any cops actually looking for Matt. A straight up manhunt out on a murderous Daredevil is enough to make any BOLO on Matt Murdock from days prior pretty low on the priority list. Matt doesn't even have a warrant out for his arrest, all they have on him is that Fisk named him as a suspect and the FBI wants to question him. They use the NYPD to smoke him out and the BOLO with the "possibly armed and dangerous" bit tacked on as a precaution. I'd say it's more like they put a BOLO on him because the FBI wants him for questioning and had confirmed he had just been at his apartment, and that was the best way to locate him quick if he was still in the area.
- As for explaining Matt's absence to Foggy's family, one assumes Foggy and Karen invented some sort of cover story (probably "he's in rehab for alcoholism," if anything, given how Matt and Foggy had almost convinced Karen that was the excuse for Matt's injuries).
- This seems like an abandoned plot thread. As late as episode 7, when Nadeem is questioning Karen after the Bulletin attack, he's still pursuing Matt based on Fisk's false allegations. While Nadeem begins to have doubts about Fisk over the course of this episode and the one that follows it, he's focused on investigating Dex, not Fisk's allegations against Matt. And after he's framed for the murder of Agent Winn, he knows Fisk has been playing him and his fellow agents, but he now can't do anything about it because he is working for Fisk at that point. We don't see Fisk call off the FBI's pursuit of Matt; Fisk just moves on to other targets. After episode 7, we hear nothing more about the allegations against Matt. But then in episode 12, when Foggy has Tower meet with him, Matt and Nadeem at Fogwell's Gym, Tower says nothing to Matt to the effect of, "I thought you were a wanted fugitive, Mr. Murdock," which is strange since the FBI would've informed the DA's office and the NYPD that Matt was a wanted fugitive (the BOLO Matt hears at the end of episode 5 sounds like it's going out on a police radio). So if Matt is no longer a wanted man by the time he and Foggy meet with Tower, something must've happened offscreen. It's possible the FBI didn't find any evidence to support Fisk's allegations against Matt (because none existed to begin with), but this was a fairly important plot line and one basically left hanging.
- This is all complicated by the fact that we don't know how much time passed between Midland Circle and Fisk being released from prison. It's hard to put together an exact timeline for the Marvel Netflix shows, to the point it's easier to just say, "Continuity doesn’t exist. Time is an illusion." The Defenders complicated what was already an inconsistent and tangled situation (do all of the seasons that come after it take place at the same time? If so, where is the overlap?), so the best approach to take is that Daredevil season 3 takes place just long enough after The Defenders that Foggy is becoming convinced Matt hadn’t survived the Midland Circle explosion, but not long enough that Sister Maggie had gotten sick of having Matt lying around in her infirmary.
- Marvel.com just added a comprehensive MCU timeline order (February 2024) that factor in the seasons. Defenders is placed before Civil War but Daredevil S3 is placed before Ragnarok. We know Civil War is 2016 & Ragnarok is late 2017, so it's been over a year.
- Not sure what the exact laws in New York are, but generally someone has to take a specific action to have someone declared missing or dead. Even in cases where a person has died in normal circumstances. It’s not automatic. Matt has no next of kin and his family surrogates- Foggy and Karen, are in denial about his likely fate for months at the start of the season (in order to reduce the chances of people connecting the dots between Matt and Daredevil). As for the license, nothing suggests that any legal action has been taken against Matt, or if his law license has gone dormant or lapsed, and he has not been gone long enough for that to happen anyway.
How long was Matt missing?
- How much time passed between The Defenders and season 3? We know it's been two years since season 1, based on Fisk’s complimenting Felix Manning for keeping Vanessa safe for two years, but the show seems to get murky on dates like how long Matt was missing between Midland Circle and the start of season 3.
- At least a year passes between the end of season 1 and the beginning of season 2. At the end of season 1, Foggy states correctly that it could take up to a year to bring Fisk to trial. In season 2, Fisk is in prison, indicating he’s been tried, convicted, and sentenced. The conversation he has with Donovan early in season 2 episode 9 sees Fisk asking about his appeal, something he'd only be asking about after his conviction, but that's complicated by the fact that his scars from his alleyway fight with Matt still look very fresh.
- Season 2 takes place over a period of about 4 to 6 months. The season begins in the summer, during a heat wave, and ends in the winter, during the holidays.
- Several months pass between the end of season 2 and The Defenders. The third episode opens with an extended flashback to the Hand resurrecting Elektra, and Alexandra training her again how to fight. The flashback begins with Sowande telling Alexandra they have recovered Elektra's body (around the end of season 2). The text at the beginning of the flashback says, “Months ago…”
- The Defenders: The main action in the series takes place over a period of about three or four days, probably less than a week. Right before Luke, Jessica and Matt go into Midland Circle, Luke mentions that he was there, looking for Danny, two days ago. This refers to the hallway fight at the end of the third episode, when they all end up there and fight the Hand. Some of the events of the first episode (Luke’s release from prison, the Aaron James case that Matt had taken to court, Danny and Colleen fighting Elektra in Cambodia) took place earlier. The flashbacks showing Elektra’s reanimation and retraining take place over a period of months before the main action, as noted above. The events after the collapse of Midland Circle take place at some undetermined time after the collapse, but probably not long after. When Foggy and Karen meet at the church, Foggy says that it’s been “days” since the collapse. The cover-up of the events at Midland Circle, which Foggy discusses with Claire and Luke, may have taken longer.
- By that token, Season 3 of Daredevil begins relatively soon after the collapse of Midland Circle. When Matt wakes up at the beginning of the season, Maggie tells him he’s been at St. Agnes for “several weeks.” It's implied he somehow got out from under the building and was found and brought to St. Agnes shortly after the building collapsed, probably the morning after. This seems consistent with the opening sequence. If he had been trapped under the rubble for any appreciable period of time, he would have been in much worse shape than he was. What is shown onscreen is a condensed version of Matt’s recovery. The best evidence of how long his recovery took comes from Matt himself, when he finds Foggy at the bar and tells him, “I’ve had a rough couple of months.”
- Marvel.com just added a comprehensive MCU timeline order (February 2024) that factor in the seasons' along with the movies in the Sacred Timeline. The Defenders is placed before Captain America: Civil War (both set in 2016) while Daredevil S3 is placed before Thor: Ragnarok (both set 2017). To be specific, it lists "The Defenders" and Daredevil S3 as being 15 months apart. This is the same timeline calculation that die hard fans & sites such as the MCU Wiki had. The fact that S2 of Luke Cage & Iron Fist (set after Defenders) also treat Matt Murdock/Daredevil as dead (meaning they're set before "Daredevil" attacked the Bulletin) are probably big reasons for why timeline wise Matt was "dead/missing" for 15 months.
Fisk and the FBI Agents
- When did Fisk start working on the FBI agents? In season 1, he clearly has no control over Federal law enforcers. It’s been done in the 3-3.5 years since then. But, as we see it takes ages to plan and execute such a take over of an agent, he had been working on Nadeem for years and he had to obviously bring forward his “establishing” over Nadeem and Dex, due to him going to the Professional Responsibility guys and being crazy respectively. Yet he owns a dozen or more agents, and has for some time, so is 3 years enough time?
- The level of control Fisk has over the agents seen does not seem in consonance with the actual stuff he has on them. All they have to do is go upstairs, say what’s happened, and an investigation will be launched, which will ferret out the his action. Except for the crazy Dex. Hattley seems preoccupied with protecting her daughter and ex-husband, she even divorced the latter so that Fisk couldn't use him as leverage against her. She could make one phone call, and Fisk gets the whole FBI on him. Nadeem just had to say that Hattley was dirty and despite her and Felix Manning's machinations, an investigation would quickly reveal that Nadeem is telling the truth. It’s a masquerade which relies heavily on those with knowledge and being adversely affected by it, not making an effort to expose.
- Fisk had clearly started working on getting FBI agents dirty before the events of season 1. Hattley was under his control for so long that even her closest colleagues didn't know that she used to have two children. At least one agent on the convoy that was transporting him to Rikers was on his payroll. Not to mention that someone had to leak inside information about the convoy's route; season 3 somewhat implies that Hattley was the inside woman who leaked this information (they also imply she was the one who told Fisk that Team Avocadoes had found out about Jasper Evans). As for the reason why Hattley and Nadeem didn't come forward with all this stuff, it's because of the death threats Fisk has made against their loved ones. Fisk's entire M.O. is that he rules by fear. "Do what I say or I'll hurt everyone you love." We've seen multiple instances of this in other parts of seasons 1 and 3. That guard that was strongarmed by Wesley into trying to kill Karen in jail? We saw Wesley threaten his daughter, with the incentive of the guard's debts being forgiven only thrown in after the fact. Healy's family was being used by Fisk as leverage since he killed himself upon giving up Fisk's name to Matt, and before killing himself, he said that Fisk would come after everyone he cares about to make an example of them. Fisk's name is taboo to the point that Detectives Blake and Hoffman kill Piotr for saying it in police custody. Wesley died trying to intimidate Karen by threatening to have Matt and Foggy killed if she didn't walk back her statements on Fisk. Fisk tricked Foggy's family into cooking the butcher shop's books for the purposes of blackmailing Foggy. This "I was afraid of what he would do to my family if I didn't cooperate" argument is in fact the very argument Matt makes to Blake Tower for why Nadeem didn't come forward earlier than he did ("He didn’t say a damn thing because he was afraid for his family! Fisk tried to kill them all last night, and Agent Nadeem is here telling you everything. Can you say you do the same thing, Mr. Tower?!").
- Note that Nadeem says he hasn't had a pay bump in "three and a half years" when he's being told by Hattley why he's being denied further advancement. Considering some late season dialogue suggests Fisk was only in prison for two years, implies Fisk's machinations regarding Nadeem's finances were probably something that had been arranged before Fisk was arrested, as a sort of insurance policy. Fisk and Wesley probably implemented these plans for Nadeem around season 1 episode 7, after the failed sniper attack on Detective Blake, just in case Blake recovered and started talking, and Fisk had to go to prison for a bit. They did get Hoffman to finish off Blake before he could talk, but their plans with Nadeem still ended up being a wise call after Owlsley scooped up Hoffman as a bargaining chip and Hoffman then talked. It makes sense that Fisk likely would've started manipulating Nadeem around that point in season 1, and there were large chunks of time he was offscreen where he could've done this.
- Keep in mind, Fisk had at a few FBI agents in his back pocket in season 1 (like that SWAT cop in the truck), which allowed him to escape custody briefly, and rule of thumb is that where there's one corrupt cop there's probably more (which shows a degree of Genre Blindness on Nadeem's part, since he seems to think Dex is a lone anomaly until Hattley betrays him). Hattley's dialogue with Nadeem in season 3 after her betrayal also suggests that she'd also been turned by that point (again, she'd been under Fisk's control for so long that not even close colleagues like Nadeem knew she used to have two kids). He was also friendly with a senator. Fisk had a far reach and while he seemingly lost it by the end of season 1, he likely had enough information and dirt in reserve to get his connections back over the course of a few years. Also, not all of his assets were seized by the government; Donovan and Felix were able to secure a lot of them into Red Lion, and the rest of the money was what he made back by taking over Dutton's prison ring.
- Arguably, a lot of the stuff that happens in season 3 could've been something that Fisk had been setting up before Wesley and Owlsley were killed. Fisk has always insulated himself heavily from his illegal activities. He had Owlsley overseeing his finances, while almost everyone in the organization took their orders from Wesley, and rarely ever did they take orders directly from Fisk. The way the secret room in the hotel suite is configured, it's easy to imagine that Wesley was the one who came up with the means by which Fisk could continue giving orders while under house arrest. Worth noting is that a lot of the things Felix does (like threatening Nadeem at Hattley's house, and being Dex's minder, and handling Vanessa's arrangements) are things that Wesley would've done if he were still alive, so Felix could easily have been picked for the job because he was the next best thing Fisk had to a Wesley 2.0.
Incentive to kill
- FBI agents (except for Dex), have little positive reason to follow Fisk. What’s to stop them from having him “shot while trying to escape”? Hattley has lost a child and a spouse to Fisk and gained nothing. She has the ability and on the face of it, lots of incentive. Plus, won’t Fisk realize that she got her divorce to save him?
- The arguments Matt made to Tower about why Nadeem didn't come forward sooner are also applicable here. "I was afraid of what might happen to my family." Fisk might have contingencies in place to ensure swift consequences if he should die.
- Look closely at Nadeem's story. Fisk carefully turns this good man into a criminal conspirator. He starts early in forcing Nadeem to step up and foot the bill for his sister-in-law's treatment. Even when he suspects Fisk is using him there is no going back and he still believes somehow he can get the right things from Fisk and wind up ahead. What Fisk did to Nadeem, is likely what he did to all the other FBI agents he turned. Some were easier. No family, motivated by money. Others held out longer. Hattley lost one of her children before she turned. Yes, one of these people could have simply pulled out a gun and shot Fisk, one of them could've simply gone to the higher-ups who weren't in Fisk's control. But here's the thing: Fisk is able to kill without hesitation or remorse. He will go as far as possible. Most people are not capable of this. Every one of the agents that got turned by Fisk, they still have some hidden code that holds them back from straight up shooting him. That, or they still have something to lose personally and they know they will lose everything if they mess with Fisk, and compared to when Karen killed Wesley, they're not as willing to risk that much. Much like Nadeem, their credibility as FBI agents and good moral people was so slowly chipped at and warped that they still have some ideas that this is somehow out of their control or their fault. And they believe just a smidge that somehow they can hold onto what they have left of their lives if they comply. They are a small human piece of an uncontrollable evil force.
- And just shooting him would be murder. Even if they had proof that Fisk was blackmailing them or otherwise coercing their cooperation, that doesn't justify murdering him in cold blood. There'd be legal consequences, and they'd be remembered as a murderer, not a valiant Federal agent. And if they had that kind of proof, they could have just taken it to someone Fisk didn't control and let the system work on him. And how do you know who Fisk does and doesn't have under his thumb? Nadeem was naive enough to believe that it was only Dex who Fisk had flipped, and he took that information right to another of Fisk's puppets, and paid the price for it. More savvy agents might well realize that where there's one dirty agent, there's bound to be a half-dozen more acting alongside them, and would've taken his information to another law enforcement agency he could trust. Even Matt was aware of this back in season 1; once he found out Detectives Blake and Hoffman were in Fisk's pocket, he knew that a lot of the other cops in the precinct were probably on the take as well, which is why he tried to prevent Officer Sullivan from calling for help when he found Matt and Vladimir in that building.
- That's not how it work. Fisk dies in custody, some thugs get paid to to disfigure your daughter with razor blades and whoever replaces Fisk is telling you you work for him now. It's a criminal syndicate; killing the head means whoever gets chosen as the new boss is going to make you pay the consequences.
- The list of people that said "no" to Wilson Fisk and lived can be counted on one hand. When Fisk goes after Foggy's family, Foggy has to let Fisk think he'd won and took another angle. Karen took the money from the Union Allied payoff and snuck around his back, and until the eighth episode of season three, he didn't even know what she was capable of. Even the Russians were reluctantly polite or even obsequious to his face. Nobu was clearly disdainful but always said yes. Madame Gao never confronted him. Matt, Karen, and Ben Urich were the only people who, when Fisk threatened them, said... "No. Do your worst. This far and no further." Matt didn't even do it in person until visiting Fisk in prison in season 2. Karen sort of did, but she was trying to entrap Fisk into assault. Ben arguably didn't know how dangerous Fisk really was. Even Nadeem's initial response to Fisk was to roll over, but when he saw his chance to end the threat to his family even at the cost of his own life, he took it. Unfortunately, of Nadeem's other colleagues who Fisk has threatened into working for him, not all of them have what it takes to put a foot down and defy him, and the threats against their loved ones made them basically decide to just make the most of a shitty situation and just pray that Fisk won't discard them when he has no further use for them.
How did Poindexter become an FBI agent?
- While I can see Dex joining the military and a suicide prevention hotline, I would assume the Federal Bureau of Investigation would have higher standards and more thoroughly research their applicants. How would he with his diagnosed mental instability pass their exams?
- Perhaps he somehow fooled whatever tests they threw at him. Like, if there's a lie detector test, he probably found a way to trick it.
- Assuming that Dex's childhood records were sealed (and that's a big if), he probably just lied his way through the examination, which most psychopaths are very good at. He's clearly got his life mostly together, and at the start of the season is a pretty good agent, albeit with a higher use of force than normal (as noted by the shrink). It's really not until Fisk gets his hooks in him that he goes off the rails.
- It's noted that Dex enlisted in the Army (it's not that uncommon for many soldiers to go into civilian law enforcement jobs after their army careers are over). It's possible that Dr. Mercer wanted him to have the opportunity to function normally in life so she may have fudged some of her official diagnoses. On record, her files painted Dex as an orphan with some reasonable emotional issues as a child who saw a therapist that deemed him to be a healthy functioning member of society after treatment. Because he was 'getting better', as in, between the Army's order and structure along with the tapes, it helped him with his mental illness. Then when he completed about four or five years in the Army, he discharged with honors and joined the FBI, where his Army record was the only thing they cared about on his job application and not, say, anything else from his educational or medical background.
What was Dex under investigation for?
- When that Bulletin article about Dex being under investigation went out...what was the FBI investigating Dex for? I know Nadeem and Hattley tell him the evidence doesn't match up with his report but, is there anything else? Are they going after him for executing the two shooters from the ambush who were surrendering, or because his ricochet ability doesn't make sense?
- Neither. It was all Wilson Fisk. It's later revealed that Fisk controls many agents in the FBI through blackmail and whatnot (including Nadeem's boss). This was all part of a big scheme by Fisk to get Dex on his side: he had his agents in OPR open an "investigation" into the shooting attack, then he'd lie to the agents who questioned him, with the expectation being that Dex would see him lying on tape, and confront him about it, allowing Fisk to now feed Dex his poison about society not understanding him.
- Nadeem tells Dex, "It would also be inappropriate of me to tell you that there was a slight discrepancy between your official report and the forensic analysis of the shooting." This is probably concerning the deaths of the last four gunmen (the two he shot in the head while they were surrendering, and the two he killed by throwing parts of his gun at them). Not to mention that it's standard protocol for there to be an internal investigation whenever a member of law enforcement uses lethal force in the line of duty. Dex just took out more than a half-dozen men in one fell swoop. The number of situations where a cop can justify doing that is incredibly slim, and the FBI would want to confirm that this was in fact one of those situations. So Dex being investigated is routine. But his suspension was Fisk's doing, as he had the story leaked to the press and used that to further manipulate him.
Fagan Corners population
- When Matt and Karen are on their date in season 2, and Karen brings up Fagan Corners, she describes the town as having "less than 400 people". Yet on the "Welcome to Fagan Corners" sign seen in the extended flashback in season 3, it seems the town has a population of about 1,300 people or more. So is Karen misremembering or writing snafu?
- Hyperbole. Let's also not forget that Karen doesn't like to talk about her past either, so she could really just be lying to make it seem like she's from a town other than Fagan Corners.
Karen losing her job
- When Nadeem asked Karen how she knew it wasn’t actually Daredevil attacking the Bulletin, she said it was because Daredevil never kills people. Then when the same question comes up again later when she’s talking to Ellison at the hospital, she freezes. Why didn't she just say the same thing to Ellison that she said to Nadeem? If she said something like "Back at Union Allied, Daredevil saved me from an attacker. He told me what to do with him. That man in Daredevil's suit had a different voice than him," she would have been in the clear with Ellison.
- Karen has had plenty of places where she could've been way clearer/less digging herself further into a hole, but it seems like these kind of "under stress" situations aren't really her thing, at all. Karen just watched several of her coworkers get killed, her only lead got shot right next to her with her gun, Matt's reputation is burned to the ground, and her boss is in the hospital because he trusted her. Her world is on fire and she was on the brink of breaking down all episode, which culminated in her decision the following day to go visit Fisk. Hard to blame her for not having a lot of social savvy right now. For his part, Ellison was angry that Karen was holding back. She was withholding the biggest story to ever hit print and after the office attack, he needed to know. It's hard to tell if ANY answer Karen gave would've satisfied Ellison.
- Karen was pinned down right after a very stressful event when she was still in an emotionally fragile state. Admittedly, it was a little contrived that Ellison made the connection that Karen knew who Daredevil was just because Karen said the attacker wasn't Daredevil, but it's a perfectly reasonable assumption for him to make, since the fake "Daredevil" addressed Karen by first name, and she wrote an in-depth article about him. Although given Ellison's volatile state, the question didn't arise as naturally as it could have.
- Ellison's staff is dead and Karen is hiding information that could help the police find the man. She screwed herself up by not explaining that since Daredevil saved her life twice, she could tell by his voice or height that it wasn't him.
- Put yourself in Ellison's shoes. His place of work has just been attacked, several people killed and more hospitalized, including himself. The police say it was a local criminal who escalated his MO, and it's not like Daredevil was soft on violence before Midland Circle happened (Matt did throw a Russian off of Claire's roof and put him in a coma, tried to kill Fisk once, and threw Nobu off a roof with the intention of killing him). Ellison is in the hospital as a casualty of this shooting. Karen, who is one of his employees, (who was potentially the partial cause of this through bringing Jasper Evans to the Bulletin) drops by, and says she knows it wasn't the criminal. She refuses to elaborate any further. Ellison was just consoling someone who lost family to this attack, and just gave this employee a big speech about how they're all in this together, then Karen implies she knows more than the police but is keeping it secret. She implies the police are chasing the wrong person, letting the bastard responsible get away, and aren't telling anyone. Not even him. Ellison believes her, but he's rightfully pissed. It makes plenty of sense. By not telling anyone, Karen is letting everyone chase the wrong person. She wasn't even going to tell Ellison, having just let it slip out without having a good cover story. The last thing she wanted to do at the time probably wasn't "lie to the man who was hospitalized for believing in her".
- Meanwhile, Karen's position is that she has to protect her source. As Deborah Ann Woll put it during a #SaveDaredevil one-on-one between her and Geoffrey Cantor, "As close as she and Ellison were/are, I just think, 1) it's not her secret to tell. That feels wrong. Also, I think she respects the anonymity to the point of, you know, again, to strangers and to what he's trying to accomplish. I think it hurt her a little bit not to know because it felt like a dear friend, someone you were close with, didn't trust you. But with Ellison, again yeah, I don't see that. You know, you never give up on your CI, on your source. Not even to your boss. [...] And also, to remember, at the time, Ellison was angry and wanting to know, because Bullseye was using his image in a negative way. So he was going “Look, this person's killing people, and we need to know." Versus, once it comes out that that was not really what's happening, there's a different kind of need-to-know going on there."
- Karen has had plenty of places where she could've been way clearer/less digging herself further into a hole, but it seems like these kind of "under stress" situations aren't really her thing, at all. Karen just watched several of her coworkers get killed, her only lead got shot right next to her with her gun, Matt's reputation is burned to the ground, and her boss is in the hospital because he trusted her. Her world is on fire and she was on the brink of breaking down all episode, which culminated in her decision the following day to go visit Fisk. Hard to blame her for not having a lot of social savvy right now. For his part, Ellison was angry that Karen was holding back. She was withholding the biggest story to ever hit print and after the office attack, he needed to know. It's hard to tell if ANY answer Karen gave would've satisfied Ellison.
Voice recognition failure
- How the hell did Nadeem not recognize Dex's voice from that video in the Bulletin attack? He should've recognized it right away.
- Because it's the last thing Nadeem expects to hear. If you heard a close friend's or family member's voice doing this, you wouldn't hear it either. That's why it wasn't until Matt told him what he'd gleaned from Melvin (that Fisk had him build the suit for an FBI agent) that Nadeem starts looking more closely at the tape and realizes it's Dex. It's for the same reason that Brett Mahoney doesn't instantly connect the dots about Matt being Daredevil even with having had lengthy conversations with him both in and out of costume, and why Karen didn't recognize Matt's voice either time that he saved her from assailants.
Matt being a wanted man
- Before Dex's attack on the Bulletin, Matt was a wanted fugitive and was going to turn himself in to get his name cleared. What happened between that and taking Nadeem on as a client ensured that he could just do his thing as a lawyer to try to get Fisk at the end of the season with no problems? Also, why didn't Fisk just out Matt as Daredevil? He DID try to assassinate both Matt’s and Daredevil's reputations separately but why not just out him?
- The most likely reason Fisk never outed Matt as Daredevil right away is that he probably didn't want Matt to be arrested or have any kind of alibi, if he planned on using Dex to pose as Daredevil some more. He was probably waiting to play that card once he was done screwing up Matt's life as the final "fuck you."
- Fisk isn't just out for revenge. He's trying to rebuild his criminal empire and he still needs Daredevil (or rather the Daredevil identity) for that. Number one, he needed to discredit him. Even after Fisk weaseled his way out of prison, the public still rightly view him as a criminal. He needed to restore his reputation. So his plan was to make it look like Daredevil was the real bad guy and had gotten Fisk locked up unfairly. That's why he had Dex dress up in a Daredevil suit and run around murdering people. Number two, giving the impression that Daredevil is now under Fisk's command sends a powerful message to his opposition in the underworld that "Hey, remember that vigilante who toppled several crime syndicates and tried to have me sent to prison? Yeah, he works for me now." If he outs Matt Murdock as the real Daredevil, then maybe Matt would have been arrested, but Fisk himself would have lost a valuable tool and given that he had enough leverage over the FBI to send them after Matt without that information, there was no reason to give it up.
- There's also the matter of Fisk wanting to make sure there's nothing that might hamper his appeal process. In Fisk's very first scene in the season, his lawyers come by the jail to inform him that his appeal is "proceeding as discussed" (an appeal process that had already been started shortly after the events of season 1, given that in the extended season 2 flashback of what Fisk did between his arrest and when he had Frank brought to him, the first conversation between Fisk and Donovan had Fisk asking "How is the progress regarding my appeal, Mr. Donovan?" which Donovan said was something that would take years). Fisk needs to get his verdict overturned and the easiest way to do that is to "prove" that the guy who provided all the evidence against him, Daredevil, is a psycho killer who probably planted the evidence and who threatened/killed anyone who might've told a different story. As soon as it becomes plausible in a jury's mind that DD faked all the evidence, you have instilled reasonable doubt, and Fisk becomes a free man (because nobody wants to waste time and money on subjecting him to a new trial). Not to mention, only once Fisk's name is cleared does it mean Vanessa can safely return to the United States, given that she had a warrant out for her arrest on accessory charges.
Matt's relationships with his mother and Father Lantom
- Matt seemed to barely remember Father Lantom from when he was a young boy in season 1, now it seems he was around during his teenage years. And if Sister Maggie was a part of Matt’s life, why in the world did she allow Stick to train him and treat him like dirt?
- Sister Maggie didn't know Stick was a harsh taskmaster training Matt to become a ninja vigilante, since I'm guessing Stick did most of that training in secrecy (given The Chaste operates in secrecy as well). The lingering guilt of abandoning him likely kept her from getting too close to his life. As for Father Lantom, it's not implausible that his contact with Matt diminished from his teenage years on until Matt more or less forgot about him by the time we get to season 1.
Why didn't Father Lantom tell Matt's loved ones that he was alive?
- Father Lantom has known Matt through confession for decades. While Matt was laid up with his injuries, why didn't Father Lantom let Matt's loved ones know he was alive, even if only so that they could keep paying his rent while he recuperated?
- Because that would raise several questions that he can't answer without compromising Matt. If he phones Karen and Foggy to say Matt's alive, they'll hound Father Lantom for details of how he knows about that until they actually discover Matt and given Father Lantom respects Matt's privacy (and is aware that something like this could bring risks to said loved ones or Matt himself), he wouldn't do it unless Matt asked it of him.
- He knew Karen and Foggy held a vigil at the church. If it would ease their pain and suffering, it would make sense to let them know. Then again, this is the same Father Lantom who didn't tell a young Matt who has lost everything that "Hey, your mother is just down the hall. You're not alone." It seems he really sticks by the whole priestly, "it's not my place to expose private confessions".
- Father Lantom could've done that (call Karen and Foggy to tell them Matt's alive), and if confronted by Matt about it, argued he was acting in Matt's best interests. He would know that Karen and Foggy would still love Matt even when he's blind and useless, and it would be beneficial for Matt in the long-run.
- He doesn't have their number, like they only met during funerals he doesn't have to tell them anything.
- Karen and Foggy work at very public jobs. It wouldn't be too hard to look them up in the phone book or use directory assistance.
- Bear in mind that Matt actually woke up from his coma MONTHS after the collapse of Midland Circle, and was extremely injured. He also couldn’t be sent to the hospital due to the possibility of being connected to Daredevil, and later on would only have raised more questions (How did blind lawyer Matt Murdock get so injured? Why wasn’t he brought in immediately?). Father Lantom was probably trying to do his best to heal him, but also preparing for the worst where Matt might die from his wounds. Telling Foggy and Karen would only create unnecessary drama and possibly give them false hope after grieving.
- "Months" seems a bit extreme. More like "a few weeks" tops. We don't know how much time passes between Midland Circle collapsing and Fisk being released from prison.
- Nope. It's definitely months; in fact, it's 15 months. Firstly, it's "months" because they say that in Daredevil S3; Karen tells Nadeem that she hasn't seen Matt in months (last time she saw him was "The Defenders" finale). Matt also says to Foggy when they reunite that "It's been a rough couple months." However, in between The Defenders and Daredevil S3, we have Luke Cage S2 & Iron Fist S2, where Daredevil publicly is considered inactive for a while now. (Luke & Danny also believe Daredevil is dead). This means those seasons are set after Midland Circle blew up but before "Daredevil" attacked the Bulletin. S1 of The Punisher is also set after The Defenders but before Daredevil S3, as Karen mentions having lost Matt. Factoring in these shows, die hard fans, such as the MCU Wiki, calculated the gap as 15 months. 1 year & 3 months. And in February 2024, Marvel.com uploaded a Sacred Timeline chronological sequence on their site, where they placed The Defenders as being set in 2016 alongside Captain America: Civil War and S3 of Daredevil as being set in late 2017 right before Thor: Ragnarok. So even by Marvel's standards, there's at a least a year in between.
- Because that would raise several questions that he can't answer without compromising Matt. If he phones Karen and Foggy to say Matt's alive, they'll hound Father Lantom for details of how he knows about that until they actually discover Matt and given Father Lantom respects Matt's privacy (and is aware that something like this could bring risks to said loved ones or Matt himself), he wouldn't do it unless Matt asked it of him.
Theo blaming Foggy
- Why is Theo blaming Foggy for the butcher shop being in financial trouble when he was the one who committed fraud and got himself and his parents in this situation?
- The shop got in trouble because all the shop's suppliers suddenly stopped doing business with them. That put them in financial trouble and forced Theo to try to get a loan, but none of the banks were willing to give him a loan because he didn't have the collateral. Then the Red Lion bank stepped in and had him cook the books to get a loan. Once he got the loan, the suppliers magically came back. But the truth is that Fisk engineered all of this. Fisk made the suppliers stop doing business with the shop, driving them into a financial hole that ruined their credit and made it so the banks would refuse to give him a loan. Then, when Theo was at his most desperate, Fisk had his people at Red Lion swoop in to the rescue, accept the loan application, and directed them to trick Theo into cooking the books. Now that he had evidence of the Nelsons into committing fraud, Fisk had something he could use to blackmail Foggy when the time came, so he let the suppliers do business with the shop again. Theo probably is irrationally blaming this on Foggy because of Foggy choosing to go after Fisk.
- Theo is being irrational. In episode 11, when he's trying to get Foggy to make the "apology" statement written up by Fisk's people and blames Foggy for their predicament, Foggy bites back, "You knew it was fraud when you signed it!" It's Foggy's way of pointing out that while he may have put a target on his family's backs by poking at Fisk, that doesn't change that Theo and their parents are also at fault for signing what was clearly a scam loan without first consulting Foggy (when Foggy had asked Theo "Why didn't you come to me?" in episode 9, Theo suggested that Fisk's people got to them before he had a chance to reach out to Foggy). Foggy wasn’t to blame for them signing the loan, and Theo shouldn’t be pressuring Foggy to fix his problems.
- Both sides have a point. Theo is correct to point out that while Foggy may not have intended for this to happen, he painted a target on his family's back when he started going after Fisk the first time with Matt and Karen. It also seems that he didn't even give them a heads up that he was deliberately antagonizing a vicious crime lord, and that they might want to be a bit careful not to get themselves inadvertently involved, giving them no say in the matter. At the same time, Foggy is absolutely correct that Theo knew at the time he was doing something illegal, which could get him, his brother, and their folks all in a lot of trouble if it ever came out. Remember the final season of The Wire, when Lester Freamon managed to flip Clay Davis by discovering he lied on a loan application. It's a $1 million fine and up to eight years in a federal prison. Why, you ask? Cause it's important that we have laws to protect big business, like the banks. That's why the fine for pirating a single copy of a film is something like $250k.
- In this scene, Theo is basically trying to guilt-trip Foggy. Foggy fires back that Theo knew what he was doing was fraud but signed the loan anyways. Theo tried to frame it like it was Foggy's fault for leaving, which is classic abusive behavior, and Foggy shot that down quick.
- The shop got in trouble because all the shop's suppliers suddenly stopped doing business with them. That put them in financial trouble and forced Theo to try to get a loan, but none of the banks were willing to give him a loan because he didn't have the collateral. Then the Red Lion bank stepped in and had him cook the books to get a loan. Once he got the loan, the suppliers magically came back. But the truth is that Fisk engineered all of this. Fisk made the suppliers stop doing business with the shop, driving them into a financial hole that ruined their credit and made it so the banks would refuse to give him a loan. Then, when Theo was at his most desperate, Fisk had his people at Red Lion swoop in to the rescue, accept the loan application, and directed them to trick Theo into cooking the books. Now that he had evidence of the Nelsons into committing fraud, Fisk had something he could use to blackmail Foggy when the time came, so he let the suppliers do business with the shop again. Theo probably is irrationally blaming this on Foggy because of Foggy choosing to go after Fisk.
Why didn't Karen tell Matt about Wesley when he showed up in her apartment?
- She's already told this to Foggy. At this point, it would just make sense for her to also tell Matt about it whenever he finally came to his senses. So why not tell him about it when he shows up in her apartment? She ought to know that Matt might find out sooner or later.
- The most likely reason she didn't tell Matt about Wesley there, was because she was pissed off and scared. She is scared that he will reject her. But more importantly, Karen is rightfully angry with Matt for leaving them, "dying" in Midland Circle, turning up alive only to push them away again. This means it's hard for her to trust him, which is understandable. Even though she knows about Daredevil, he has also lied to her… again. So she does what she did in season 2: she walks away, not for long, but she does. She does not think Matt can change, and as far as she knows, she is correct in this assumption. Matt hasn’t been honest with her. She does not need to put up with this. She closes herself off until she knows she can trust him again. As much as we want them to restart their romantic relationship, they haven’t. Karen doesn’t rush into his arms, she knows where she stands. She knows what she does not want, and she won’t let her romantic feelings get in the way. Remember that when she found Elektra in Matt's bed, she could have ignored Elektra and just kept her happy bubble, but she doesn’t, she faces reality.note She does not regret her romantic time with Matt. When Foggy apologizes to her for not warning her about Matt, she says that to Foggy that he shouldn’t have warned her. She loves Matt, but she needs him to not lie to her. It wouldn’t have been true to Karen's character had she just come right out with it the moment Matt turned up in her apartment. You don’t just come right out and tell your just-back-from-the-dead-ex-boyfriend that you once killed a man. She needs Matt to prove himself trustworthy, to not only not lie to her, but not pull his self-righteous "holier than thou" thing. They are still idealizing/idolizing each other. It's not until they're hiding from Dex in the crypt that they begin breaking down the barriers between them: Matt finally understands how strong Karen is, and what she has done. How not innocent she is, and that she can handle herself. It’s hard enough for her to tell anyone, but Matt, what she's done.
- After everything Matt had put Karen and Foggy through in season 2, followed by letting her believe for months that he was dead, it's understandable Karen wouldn't want to do anything with him. Besides, if he'd agreed to help her, the scenes between Karen and Foggy in the car, and between Karen and Maggie in the church wouldn't have happened. Both of those scenes were important and necessary to the story.
- If Karen confessed about Wesley when Matt turned up asking for her help in finding Jasper Evans, the entire tone and meaning of her confession would be entirely altered. As it goes in the church, her confession comes as a cautionary tale for Matt; she’s warning him about the horrific consequences of taking a life, since Matt had been in Fisk's penthouse with the intention of killing him when he had to abort that and come to the church to rescue Karen from Dex. However, it's not perfectly executed: for one, it comes at the expense of Matt grieving for Father Lantom and being justifiably angry with Karen, and it also lacks the necessary nuance, since Karen’s murdering Wesley in self-defense is not the same thing as Matt’s plans to commit premeditated murder.
So if Karen were to confess about Wesley to Matt in her apartment, the question would be how and why would she do that? Something would've had to have unfolded differently in her dialogue with Matt to bring about that information. Furthermore, the purpose of the confession would have to be much different, because Matt isn’t thinking about killing Fisk at that point (that doesn’t come until after the Bulletin attack, and Matt and Nadeem's break-in at Dex's apartment, when he thinks he doesn’t have a choice if he wants to protect his friends and his city)
Karen’s confession would also have to come from a different place. She is angry when Matt arrives and ready to make a point about his secret identity; so the confession would have to likely come from the exact opposite place as it does in the show. One where Karen tries to make a point that sometimes, killing is necessary to keep people safe. She wouldn’t even have to believe it at this point (and would likely come around to see Matt’s POV by the end of the season), but it would have been a curveball to throw right before Matt's first face-off with Dex.
The scene in the church could still happen, too, and this time there would be room for a more complex discussion about killing. As Karen comes around and revises her viewpoint, admitting that she was speaking in anger, then Matt would remind her that she has done better already and managed to rise above her actions. In this version of events, Matt would also get an opportunity to grieve. - It's kinda hard to imagine a scenario where Karen tells Matt about Wesley in that moment and it also feels in character for her. For one, she’d just been through the whole thing in depth with Foggy the night before, and we come into that scene with her kind of dragging around her apartment and taking some pills, so she was completely emotionally wrecked and not wanting to think any more about Wesley at all. She’s also far far too mad at Matt in that moment to want to have any kind of open and vulnerable conversation, since she's had a while to reflect on how Matt had treated them before she actually saw him, unlike Foggy. In fact, she’s trying not to open up to him emotionally at all. She sees him lying about being dead as him not caring about her and Foggy, and him coming to her just because he needs something from her just seems to confirm that. So she wants to return that by just being cold and shutting him out. That’s why she doesn’t yell at him or really engage with him. She just asks for the rent and then goes about making breakfast. She wants to show him that if he doesn’t care, then neither does she.
It takes Foggy pointing out that Matt could have gone to any reporter for her to start to realize that Matt coming and asking her for help wasn’t him trying to use but him trying to reach out and show he cared about her, just in a very… clumsy, emotionally withdrawn, begrudging way. And that conversation with Foggy and then the conversation with Maggie helps her realize why he behaves the way he does and opens the road for her to forgive him. And it’s not til some of that progress has happened and she’s much more vulnerable that she’s able to open up to him.- With that being said, if for some reason Karen DID tell Matt in that moment, perhaps his first question would have been the same “Why didn’t you tell me?” he does at the church, but she would not have been emotionally aware, or open enough to give the answer she does later. She would probably have said something angry and accusatory, about how he never tells them anything so why would she, and then the conversation would have stalled out and she asks what he wanted from her and they’d have the whole Jasper Evans conversation. Then later, after some of the emotional progression had taken place they’d be able to circle back around to the discussion of why and all that.
As far as Jasper Evans, it’s totally in character for Karen's first response to be anger and stubbornness. She’s not so much rejecting a lead on Fisk as she’s rejecting doing things Matt’s way or working with him. She’s always been headstrong and stubborn and set on going after Fisk herself. And she really only is refusing to do anything with Matt’s lead right that moment. Because the very next scene we see her in she’s looking up information on Jasper Evans. And then pretty quickly she’s going to his last known address. So she was always going to pursue the lead, the only thing Foggy had to convince her of was to actually actively work with Matt on it, instead of going solo.
- With that being said, if for some reason Karen DID tell Matt in that moment, perhaps his first question would have been the same “Why didn’t you tell me?” he does at the church, but she would not have been emotionally aware, or open enough to give the answer she does later. She would probably have said something angry and accusatory, about how he never tells them anything so why would she, and then the conversation would have stalled out and she asks what he wanted from her and they’d have the whole Jasper Evans conversation. Then later, after some of the emotional progression had taken place they’d be able to circle back around to the discussion of why and all that.
- There's a way
that Karen could've told Matt about Wesley in her apartment. It's that Matt could easily have picked up on her emotional state through physical signs and pressed her into telling him. Sure, from a writing standpoint, maybe the writers chose to hold off on the confession on the grounds that since she'd just told Foggy, it would be a bit repetitive for Karen to immediately rehash her entire confession about Wesley to Matt literally a scene later. Except, of course, since that confession to Foggy was told in flashback, it would have been relatively easy for the writers to write her confession to Foggy in such a way as to either not have her go into the exact same details onscreen with Foggy, or to leave her scene with Foggy to the viewers' imagination and save the full details for her onscreen confession to Matt, so as not to be repetitive.
What if Matt was the first person Karen ever told about Wesley?
- How would Karen's confession to Matt about Wesley have differed if he, and not Foggy, was the first person she ever confessed to about it?
- In the show, when Karen told Matt, he had no idea if Foggy knew or not. So for Matt, not much would change, at least, not directly. The biggest change would probably come from how Karen talked about it. She might be more scared, maybe even pushing Matt to tell her she’s a bad person like she did with Foggy, since this would be the first time she’s talked about it. If that’s true, Matt would probably be way more sympathetic to her and, frankly, less self-centered. (But it’s still Season 3 Matt, and he’s a mess, so that has to be considered)
How does Jasper Evans exonerate Matt?
- As in, how do Matt, Karen and Foggy think Jasper admitting Fisk staged the shanking and relocation help Matt in any way?
- Because it proves Fisk has been manipulating the FBI, and half the reason they're after Matt is because Fisk said Matt was on his payroll. The fact that Jasper Evans is out of prison when the books say he's supposed to be locked up is the key to their defense.
Exonerating Matt alternate strategy
- After being wounded by Dex, why didn't Matt stay at the Bulletin? No one except Foggy saw him fighting Dex. All he'd have to do is take off the black mask and have Foggy pocket it. Even if he had to forfeit being Daredevil, he would at least show some reasonable doubt that "Matt Murdock = Daredevil" and paint himself as a victim like all the dead bodies.
- The FBI wanted Matt because they believed he was a dirty lawyer due to Fisk's fake intel. They have no reason to believe he is Daredevil and in fact there is a greater potential from them to find out he is Daredevil after some digging once they have him in custody and start investigating. And with Jasper dead, there is no easy way to exonerate him so he is at risk of being stuck in custody not able to stop Fisk and Dex. Matt was only okay with surrendering himself with the condition of Jasper taking Fisk down. Not to mention that if Matt stayed, he'd be taken to the hospital, and Karen and Foggy would have to explain to the police and to the emergency room doctors the source of all Matt's scars from knife and bullet wounds. Even if the paramedics had strapped Matt down to a gurney, Nadeem would have been able to ID him.
- Matt, Karen and Foggy don't trust the police after their past experiences with Fisk. They have every reason to believe that Nadeem and his agents are under Fisk's influence either through bribery or intimidation. At the same time, they did call Nadeem and the reason they did that was to prevent Matt from getting arrested. So, police protection was coming. They just did not anticipate that Hattley would tip off Fisk about Jasper Evans having been located and that Fisk would send someone to directly attack them, especially someone who was capable of being a one-man army.
Why didn't she shoot him?
- During the Bulletin attack, Karen had her gun out. Why didn't she start shooting the moment Dex started breaking down the door? Dex had just killed half a dozen of her coworkers and beat the shit out of her best friend. If Wesley threatening to kill her friends was enough to put her into action mode, and she was willing to draw down on Frank when he showed up at her apartment in 2x10, wouldn't having her colleagues actually killed be enough to get her to fire, you know, at least one single, solitary shot? Why doesn't she even, say, try punching Dex at least once?
- She was probably unsure if it was Matt or FBI agents/police officers breaking down the locked door to rush them to safety. She had no way of knowing who was coming through the door until it was too late.
- Uh, if it were Matt or FBI agents, they would've knocked and asked, "Is anyone is in there? It's safe to come out now."
- It's unclear what's going through Karen's head here. One possibility is that seeing her friends killed by someone as skilled as Dex would likely frighten her, as it would anyone who isn't a trained combatant. Seeing someone in the Daredevil suit may also have had an effect on her. Plus as much as Wesley threatening her friends sparked something in her, killing him is something she's conflicted about. Even in a life-or-death situation, it probably would not be easy for her to try that again.
- As for why she doesn't punch Dex, well, Karen can sucker punch a high college student. She can not take on Dex. How exactly do you imagine her even hitting him? She’s not Elektra. Despite the fact that she has absolutely no training, she puts her body between Dex (a dangerous criminal) and Jasper Evans and later the congregation. She is completely at Dex’s mercy and she still chooses to protect Jasper Evans. Not every female hero is Natasha or Jessica Jones. And Dex had moments earlier knocked out Foggy like it was nothing. Hell, Karen almost shot Foggy when he came in the room.
- She was probably unsure if it was Matt or FBI agents/police officers breaking down the locked door to rush them to safety. She had no way of knowing who was coming through the door until it was too late.
Where was the Punisher during season 3?
- The attack on the Bulletin was all over the news. Given how Frank reacted when Lewis threatened Karen, why didn't he get involved (beyond the obvious out-of-universe reason)?
- It would seem little time passes between Dex’s attack on the Bulletin and him getting paralyzed by Fisk. Frank has no way of knowing about Dex’s identity, nor about his connection to Fisk, and the limited timeframe (of at most a week, it would seem) would most likely not be enough time for Frank to unearth such a deeply entrenched conspiracy. It’s very likely, however, that Frank will have some words for Daredevil in the near future.
- Additionally, at the end of Punisher's first season, he was trying to leave his personal war behind him (as he tried to do at the start of the season). He likely felt Matt could handle the situation. Beyond that, he no longer has any weapons, no base of operations, and no information to go on to be of any use.
- The news was reporting that Daredevil did the Bulletin attack. If Frank had been in New York City at the time (and he wasn't, as established in The Punisher season 2), he'd probably have to start investigating to get to the truth. Remember, Frank Castle measures twice, kills once. And this conflict took place over just a little over a week. It was resolved faster than Frank would be able to find out the truth and execute a plan. The only thing Castle would have been able to do if he was in New York City (which he wasn't) would be to do advanced recon to get to the complicated truth of the matter, and since the season took place over the span of a week, Fisk would be back in jail before Frank could even make a move.
- Showrunner Erik Oleson had an explanation for the Punisher's absence (as well as the absence of the other Defenders): "Then there's the kind of meta writerly reason why I didn't want to do that, and if one of the basic rules of great drama writing is that your protagonist must be outgunned by the antagonist, or else there's no dramatic tension. If Matt can simply call Luke Cage and Jessica Jones and Danny Rand to come in and beat these other villains, your dramatic structure is lopsided. It becomes boring. It's like suddenly the heroes have all the power and the villain is outgunned, and that becomes a major impediment to telling a great story. So that's the other reason we did it, truthfully."
- Season two of The Punisher shows Frank laying low, traveling cross country. He doesn't come back to New York until after the Fisk situation has been resolved. He was in the Midwest somewhere during Daredevil season 3.
- Even if Frank were in New York, his killing method would not work here. Thanks to Matt, Fisk goes to jail and all the lives he ruined with his frame job are set right. If Frank had handled this, he would have just sniped Fisk during his podium speech and left everyone to rot with the consequences of him becoming a martyr.
- It might not even get to that. The Nelson family had already been set up while he was in jail. And the FBI was in Fisk's pocket from the very beginning. And they're no slouches. They would have put up significant resistance to Frank, and Fisk himself is an elite fighter. It's just as likely that the FBI would delay Frank long enough for Fisk to get a gun or a blunt weapon, crush Frank's skull like a grape, and then use the attempt on his life to rapidly escalate his takeover of New York with a newfound hero status.
Even if Frank succeeded, the FBI were already corrupt and it's likely Vanessa would have taken control of them with the same leverage. Fisk is ten steps ahead of everyone who could stop him; it wouldn't be unrealistic for him to have backup plans in case someone killed him to burn them all or ensure they stay under his control from beyond the grave.
The only thing killing Fisk would solve ahead of time is Dex going off the rails like he did, which was probably inevitable since he was a ticking clock (he was already stalking Julie and always enjoyed killing).
It's important to keep in mind that the Punisher almost never solves problems on a meaningful scale. He just goes around murdering criminals because he likes murder in general and they make for a good scapegoat. When he wipes out violent drug dealers or human traffickers, sure, some good comes of it. But people like Fisk are on a much higher level where simply killing them doesn't come close to undoing the problems they create. Especially when killing Fisk would simply lead to Vanessa taking over his operations and doing the exact same shit, even more ruthlessly and cruelly because of her grief.
- It might not even get to that. The Nelson family had already been set up while he was in jail. And the FBI was in Fisk's pocket from the very beginning. And they're no slouches. They would have put up significant resistance to Frank, and Fisk himself is an elite fighter. It's just as likely that the FBI would delay Frank long enough for Fisk to get a gun or a blunt weapon, crush Frank's skull like a grape, and then use the attempt on his life to rapidly escalate his takeover of New York with a newfound hero status.
Matt doesn't ask further details about Karen killing Wesley?
- When Karen mentions in the crypt that she killed Wesley, Matt doesn't bother asking further questions. I feel like it's just out of character for him to not ask things like "Why did you kill him?" and "When did this happen?"
- Matt and Karen were down in the crypt for at least a half hour, maybe even more. He probably asked her and she told him the finer details of Wesley's death offscreen while we cut away to check in with other characters. This seems to make sense from a writing standpoint, it would've been repetitive to have another reveal scene where Karen describes Wesley's death to someone (since she had onscreen described the "why" bit to Foggy, and the "how" bit to Fisk), much of which would just be spent repeating information the audience already knows.
- There's any number of reasons, which are hard to tell. One possible reason is that she probably think that Matt already has a pretty guess of why she killed Wesley without her having to describe it to him. Compared to Foggy, Matt knows what type of guy Wesley was and the idea that he may have threatened Karen isn’t a big leap. Another possible reason, is that he doesn’t want to. This scene is about radical acceptance. He knows Karen well enough to know that it wasn’t her fault. He knows how good of a person she is, and vice versa. Look at his face. He is surprised and yet full of sympathy. He knows without her having to say it. Of the two secrets she confesses to Matt down there (her brother's death, and Wesley), her brother's death is the more mysterious one since there are more unknown variables.
In the case of Kevin's death, the natural questions here for Matt are "why were you high, drunk, and driving?" It’s obvious that this secret is the harder one of the two for Karen to tell. Also look at Matt’s reaction. It’s not a "woah". It’s him closing his eyes. He’s sorry for what she had to experience. He repeats his expression from the Wesley reveal, the radical acceptance; the knowledge that she did everything she could to do what is right. In either case he doesn’t pry, probably because now is not the time. It was Karen's choice to tell Matt these secrets. It’s also her choice how many details she gives. She will tell him the rest of the details in her own time. We all want more for Matt and Karen, but give our stubborn little lovebirds some time. If you go too fast, one of you might get burned. - Karen says “You remember that friend he had that got shot? Wesley?" which seems to imply that Wesley's death was public knowledge. It also appears to be implied that Matt knew where Wesley's body was found and how he died from the police report (which he could've gotten from Brett or someone else), which is that he was shot to death in an otherwise empty warehouse. Whether Wesley dragged Karen there, coerced her in some way, or took her there at gunpoint, it wouldn't take much for Matt to conclude that she feared for her life when dealing with Fisk's top minion, particularly if he heard from any other underlings of Fisk's who also did all business with Wesley. And the "why" is also easy to surmise, as Matt knows Karen had gone to see Fisk's mother at the nursing home, and Fisk had killed Ben for that same reason. That's the most likely reason why Matt asks, "Why didn't you tell us?" rather than "Why did you kill him?" because Karen's emotional state and their relationship is more important to him than the specifics of how Wesley died.
- From a storytelling perspective, the "why did you kill him?" part was probably glossed over for pacing reasons. The writers didn’t want to have Karen again rehash to the audience why she killed Wesley since a) most of us know; b) she already told Foggy onscreen. Now, the only way to keep her confession to Matt from being pure exposition would be to play with the differences in what she told Foggy vs. what she told Matt. But the differences between how Karen would relate the story to Foggy vs. Matt aren’t really the focus of that scene. Without going meta, a possible in-universe reason for it is to highlight that although Matt is worried about her, he’s so stuck in depression that his first thought is about himself. "Why didn’t she trust HIM?" and "What did HE do wrong?" Matt is still a pretty selfless person (obviously prioritizing her safety, and even that little hand wave he does when she apologizes for revealing his secret to Fisk), but depression makes us all more self-focused and Matt is no exception. We're probably supposed to assume that she did tell Matt the full details of what happened that night in the warehouse offscreen after the camera cut away.
- That the writing was framed around why Karen didn’t tell Matt or Foggy rather than the circumstances under which Karen killed Wesley comes off like the writers were side-stepping the fact that it was an act of self-defense. Karen's life was threatened, and she acted with the knowledge that it was her or Wesley. But this was probably also a product of the writers wanting to avoid repeating Karen’s confession word-for-word. Realistically, though, the confession should have come long before season 3. It almost seems like this was supposed to have been discussed back in season 2; it certainly would've made sense for Wesley's death to have been discussed during Matt and Karen's study date in the midst of Frank's trial. But the whole second half of season two is dedicated to the Hand arc, and Matt and Karen barely have any screentime together, which represents another missed opportunity in terms of Karen’s development.
However, in lieu of that, making her confession first to Matt or writing the scene with Foggy differently, would have allowed for the conversation here to tackle the more important questions of Wesley’s death. The confession we got seemed oddly simple for a world where questions of morality are consistently complex. Karen seems to perceive, at times, that what happened with her brother and what happened with Wesley are somehow the same, and maybe depending on the writing staff, they were at one point in earlier seasons. But it also seems like there was an effort to make Karen’s arc about redemption. She is the person who crossed the line and came back, and she keeps coming back again and again in large part due to the fact that killing Wesley was an act of self-defense. Karen isn’t Matt, who disavows killing entirely; she’s not Frank, who kills pre-emptively as part of an ongoing war. She has a different agenda, and she should have been allowed to actually be her own hero without sacrificing her own character development or Matt’s (or Nadeem’s) in the process. - The scene as structured is designed to indicate how much Matt trusts Karen. Because Matt doesn’t need to know any of the details, he doesn’t for one second think that Karen might have been in the wrong. And that’s super important because Karen says that the reason she didn’t tell him was because she didn’t want Matt and Foggy to see her as less good, but its incredibly evident from Matt’s response that he doesn’t doubt her goodness even then. So on the one hand it demonstrates an aspect of their relationship that’s really positive. And that’s important for them as well because it makes them kind of cut through all the things that have complicated their relationship, and highlights how much they care about and trust each other when it really comes down to it. And on the other hand it leads to a very frank conversation that addresses a lot of the communication issues which lead to their issues in the first place. In that sense it’s a very important conversation for progressing their relationship. A conversation about exactly what she did and why could have also led to that, except that it would have mainly been a recap of things that the audience already knows. And we already got some of that when we had her conversation with Foggy. We're meant to assume that eventually offscreen Matt and Karen talk about the details of what happened, but in the moment, it was more important to address why Karen lied and how Matt would respond to the information, especially given his strong moral convictions.
- If Matt and Karen's conversation had been about how and why she killed Wesley, it would've basically been a combination of the conversation they did have in 3x11 and the conversation that Foggy had with Karen about Wesley. In that moment, as Karen's telling Matt the events of that night, Matt's reaction would have been a combination of sympathy that she had to go through something like that, and lawyerly concerns about making sure she was legally in the clear. Except maybe with some added anger directed at Fisk. And that would be interesting to see, but it would be also kinda redundant since the characterization and relationship beats are all being hit by other scenes. So it likely wouldn't actually add anything all that meaningful. And really the existing scene in 3x11 does continue their discussion of killing from Frank's trial in season 2, it just doesn’t directly harken back to the specifics and they don’t take up in exactly the same positions they were in because Karen and Matt are both in a different place in their arcs. Matt is considering killing Fisk, Karen is a little bit more weighed down by her guilt but still considering the idea of "maybe Fisk dying is ideal". But that moral debate is still very present in the conversation they have.
- She has been endangering herself and investigating Fisk since they met. It's hard to imagine why Matt would question her reasons for killing Wesley.
Staying at the church instead of going elsewhere
- As much as I want to defend the church as the site of Karen’s confession, it doesn’t make sense for Karen as a character to be compelled to confess in a church. Wouldn't it make more sense for Matt and Karen to flee to Matt's apartment and have the confession there? If done there, that would have freed up some time for some much needed character moments. Not only could Matt have grieved Father Lantom properly, but there could have also been a more thorough exploration of Karen’s confession. They could have even sheltered at Nelson’s Meats and had Foggy present too.
- And on a sidenote, why do the Feds not ever find their way back down into the basement? They check once, while Matt and Karen are hiding in the coffin, but they never bother to come back and check until Dex comes down after Karen has been removed from the church by Brett.
Why didn't Matt confront Karen in the courtyard in episode 3...
- ...and more importantly, what would've happened if he confronted her there?
- She probably would have (rightfully) slapped him. She does see a glimpse of something, but rationalize it away. It's probably for the best she didn’t recognize him, because Matt is not in a place that that would have actually helped anything. It’s not a great time for him to be having a heart to heart with Karen. His brain (in Fisk form) is still telling him that he is not going to be able to protect her or Foggy. It’s a bit of self-pity and self-righteousness, this idea that he has to go it alone that plagues so many superheroes. Also, the timeline of this season is extremely important. These things cannot be rushed. Remember that when she was having dinner with Ellison's family the night before and Ellison tried to play matchmaker between Karen and his nephew Jason, she told him that she is not ready for a relationship, which means she still is hung up on her feelings for Matt.
- Matt wasn’t ready to partner up with anyone in episode 3. He was very much in this “I am the only one who can defeat Fisk” mode. Had he approached Karen and Foggy, and they pressed harder, they would have pushed him further away. It’s what happened in season 2. Foggy knowingly and Karen unknowingly pushed Matt further into Daredevil. To be fair, Matt very much took that as an excuse for his violence, but Karen and Foggy are the impetus, though they are not to blame for Matt's actions. There's the reason Karen has the reaction she does to Matt reappearing in her apartment at the start of episode 6. She essentially tells him "get lost". Which is a reasonable response. Karen has a lot of self-respect; she is thrilled that he didn’t die, but she isn't ready to trust him yet. He’s hurt her too much, too many times, and not done enough to make amends, and like a good friend, Karen tells him so. It takes Foggy to convince Karen to even consider helping Matt. She doesn’t just accept him back. She tells him exactly what she thinks and doesn't sugarcoat it. One has to remember that Foggy’s consistent support is also a bit enabling, in a "Matt can do whatever the hell he wants and Foggy will forgive him." Karen is more critical, which is sorta what Matt needs.
- Now, had Matt teamed up with Karen and Foggy earlier, it's likely that their investigations would've differed a bit. Matt would be doing Jessica Jones-type investigating. Karen is more of a details person; she'd be pouring over every detail in every file, with a scary level of intensity. Foggy is more of a people person; given the way he interacts with Brett. He is the “let me buy you a beer, and then find out all you know” type person. All three of these methods are effective, and actually compliment each other nicely. They'd be able to uncover Fisk's conspiracy plot a lot sooner, and maybe also be able to neuter Fisk's attempt to send the FBI after Matt. With Matt now having figured things out, they can restart Nelson & Murdock with a more emotionally functional office, with no more secrets, open communication, and no pregnant pauses.
- Karen would’ve been thrilled at first, but even before Matt started in on his “I’m not Matt Murdock thing,” she would’ve been hit with the realization that he’d been alive and mobile and yet hadn’t reached out. Which would’ve hurt her just as much then as it did later in 3x06. As for what the scene would practically look like, either Matt or Karen would pull the other away from the crowd so they can have a private conversation (which would still be a very angsty, poorly-communicated conversation) or they’d have a weird, stilted conversation because anyone passing by might overhear.
- If Matt had confronted Karen then and there in the hotel courtyard, the scene would have played out pretty similar to the later scene with Foggy at the bar. Karen would be shocked (at this point there'd probably be raised voices from the protesters and media that would force them to leave the main courtyard), then ecstatic. Then Matt would maybe start being Matt and telling her to not go after Fisk, and not to come looking for him, and Karen would get mad at Matt for the multitude of reasons that exist for her to be mad at Matt. However, maybe not as mad as she is in the actual show, since she would be the first one finding out Matt was alive and she wouldn’t have waited as long.
As far as overall effect… there wouldn't be a huge effect since Matt’s major attitudes would be the same. So there would be the same conflict. But Karen and him having more contact would likely accelerate the healing in their relationship just a little bit. Unless of course, Matt’s reason for reaching out to Karen at the hotel wasn’t to tell her to stay safe and away from Fisk, but to collaborate sooner, but that would essentially rewrite the entire season since it would shift Matt’s major motivations and internal conflict. - Karen’s reaction if Matt approached her in the courtyard would be similar to that in her apartment. Her anger at Matt would still be simmering. They would both have to be fairly restrained to avoid making a scene. Matt might try to play it incognito, which would just piss Karen off even more. If she spotted him and followed him, Karen would give him more than just a cold shoulder once she managed to get him alone (if he didn’t parkour his way away from her like he did Jessica in The Defenders). Honestly, Karen’s anger is justifiable, and while she and Foggy should have been more attentive to Matt’s absence—the fact that he doesn’t look well, that he probably didn’t walk away from Midland Circle unscathed—her perspective isn't entirely unjustified either. From her POV, she grieved Matt, but she didn’t get to grieve him completely. She lived her days not really knowing if he was alive or dead, and then the first person that she knows he goes to see is Fisk, that man that wants him and Foggy dead. So that would make their first interaction less cold and more just angry.
Freezing the bodies, rather than disposing of them
- Why would Fisk keep the bodies of Julie and the "painters" who killed her on ice, instead of just dumping them somewhere? What was the purpose of hiding those bodies?
- It's hard to tell why. Winn's body was probably kept on ice in these freezers too, in order for Hattley to have Ray posthumously framed for Winn's murder.
- Fisk may have had plans to dispose of them eventually, once he was certain enough time passed that there'd be no way for Dex to connect Julie's death back to him. He just couldn't foresee that Matt would torture that information out of Felix and then hand that information over to Dex.
- Keeping the bodies on ice might have been about trying to confuse the coroner as to the time of death. This is hardly the first time Fisk has disposed of bodies. Fisk and his mother chopped up his father's body with a chainsaw, and he did the same thing to Rigoletto just before season 1 began. Knowing about those earlier instances, Fisk probably was going to eventually leave the bodies somewhere to be found. For Julie, Fisk probably was planning on letting Dex know of her death, to further bring Dex under his thumb, once he was certain that nothing was around that could tie him to her death, but Matt accelerated that timetable.
Matt's magical costume
- Going to the Bulletin to surrender, Matt clearly didn't have his costume with him. So how did he manage to get it when Dex attacked the place to kill Jasper?
- Matt's not wearing his costume in the Bulletin attack. Much like in The Defenders when he borrowed Jessica's scarf in Midland Circle to make an improvised mask, or the "nun's veil fabric" mask he uses everywhere else in season 3, Matt is just stealing nearby clothing articles, and is wearing them on top of the suit and tie he wore to the Bulletin (much like Midland Circle, Matt wasn't anticipating a fight; his expectation was that Jasper Evans would go on record, then the FBI would show up and Matt would surrender and tell his side of the story; his and Jasper's stories would prove Fisk was manipulating the FBI and they'd send Fisk back to prison). As for the costume in the Bulletin itself, Matt acquired a beanie hat and sweater that happened to be on a nearby coat rack, specifically the one that's in the room◊ where Matt and Foggy are waiting at the time that Dex shows up.
- Matt's not wearing his costume in the Bulletin attack. Much like in The Defenders when he borrowed Jessica's scarf in Midland Circle to make an improvised mask, or the "nun's veil fabric" mask he uses everywhere else in season 3, Matt is just stealing nearby clothing articles, and is wearing them on top of the suit and tie he wore to the Bulletin (much like Midland Circle, Matt wasn't anticipating a fight; his expectation was that Jasper Evans would go on record, then the FBI would show up and Matt would surrender and tell his side of the story; his and Jasper's stories would prove Fisk was manipulating the FBI and they'd send Fisk back to prison). As for the costume in the Bulletin itself, Matt acquired a beanie hat and sweater that happened to be on a nearby coat rack, specifically the one that's in the room
The scapegoating of Matt
- Why would the FBI go straight to searching Matt's apartment and intimidating Karen and Foggy just because Fisk gave Matt's name to Nadeem? They're just gonna take Fisk’s word that the lawyer who helped put him in prison was on his payroll, and don't even ask what cases Matt supposedly tampered with?
- With the exception of Nadeem, the other FBI agents were secretly working for Fisk by then.
- That may explain the other agents not questioning things, but for Nadeem, who doesn't yet know that he's being used, it just makes no sense. Shouldn't Nadeem consider it very suspicious that Matt was part of the firm that took down Wilson Fisk? Karen brings it up at Matt’s apartment, but it’s as if Nadeem won’t seriously entertain this piece of information. Anyone with any sort of common sense would find it ridiculous to believe that Matt would have served Fisk in any way. And, because of that history, why doesn't Nadeem even consider the possibility that Matt is someone Fisk might have a personal vendetta against?
- It speaks volumes to how successfully Fisk had manipulated Nadeem that Nadeem is willing to go after Matt based solely on Fisk’s word alone. After all, it was common knowledge that Nelson & Murdock was instrumental in sending Fisk to prison. Karen really shouldn’t have had to remind Nadeem of Fisk’s obvious motive to retaliate. Even if Fisk’s information had proved to be reliable in the past, Nadeem should have been more skeptical when Fisk targeted Matt, and maybe done some online research into Matt to see if what was publicly known about Matt lined up with Fisk's claims. Nadeem's failure to question what Fisk was telling him about Matt was the result of both Fisk’s manipulation and Nadeem’s desire (for his own personal reasons) to keep the Fisk operation going.
- What Fisk is doing is akin to an old fortune-teller. Fortune-tellers have a habit of predicting something that they know will come true because of something else they knew ahead of time or just getting lucky on an educated guess. If they’re right enough times about little things, that gives them all the validity they seemingly need to prove they’re right about everything else they claim. They will likely be wrong on numerous occasions, but it’s the moments when they’re right that gives them power. They’ll also likely contradict themselves and double-back on things they’ve said in the past to make it look like they weren’t wrong when they were. In this case, Fisk has "proven" to Nadeem that he's a reliable source through his information on the Albanians and all the other criminals he's giving up to the FBI. Fisk knows Nadeem is going to eat it up because he's manipulated Nadeem into being financially desperate, and knows from his FBI insiders that they've been unable to shut down the Albanians in question despite years of investigations; so by offering Nadeem this information to break a seemingly impossible case, he becomes a "trusted" source. Fisk is thus able to easily get Nadeem to believe his fiction of being in danger from snitching when he pays Jasper Evans to shank him, and the motorcade ambush (which wasn't Fisk's doing) conveniently furthers that narrative. So when Fisk sells his tip to Nadeem about Matt being an accomplice to him, Nadeem has been so suckered that he doesn't see that Fisk is a huge liar. It probably helps that Fisk also provided some evidence to support his claims (he told Nadeem about how he had Wesley hire Nelson & Murdock to defend John Healy, and Wesley probably kept a lot of notes about it, because Nadeem asks Karen questions about that; he also told Nadeem about Matt visiting the prison using Foggy's ID whilst omitting the whole part about having his own guards and inmates try to kill Matt; and common sense goes that he probably also told Nadeem about Matt visiting him and Vanessa at Vanessa's art gallery in season 1, and the visit Matt made to him in prison during season 2).
- In real life, an experienced FBI agent in Nadeem's position would not have accepted Fisk's allegations at face value, even if Fisk had given reliable information in the past, because Matt's different from the previous people Fisk had given up. All the people Fisk had been giving up to the FBI up to this point were known criminals that Fisk had no obvious motivation to be going after (as we don't learn Fisk's plan until later). But Matt Murdock is not a known criminal, and Fisk has a blatantly obvious motive for going after him since Matt helped put him away twice. Some critical thinking should've been in order when Fisk made his allegations here, but instead, Nadeem goes full speed ahead.
The best argument for why Ray acts this way is because it's in line with what he wants: to keep Fisk as a useful source, and get the promotion and raise he so desperately wants and needs. So he's only seeing and hearing what he wants to hear. He does realize later what he did, as he tells Matt that he "took the bait," but by that point, it's too late.
- All we know is that Fisk had previously given information about the Albanians that turned out to be correct. So when he gives more information about someone else, the FBI has to look into it. It doesn't mean they believed him. They just went to Matt's apartment. If he'd been there at the time, they would have questioned him, and depending on how that would go, they would either charge him or let him go. Although with Fisk having half the FBI in his pocket, hard to say what they would've done. But still, it doesn't change the fact that the frameup falls apart pretty quickly when you ask, "why would he bribe a lawyer to convict him?" Unless of course, Fisk was just sending Nadeem on a witch hunt and by the time Nadeem found out Matt was innocent, Fisk would have Hattley do her betrayal.
- Nadeem brings up the Healy case when he questions Karen in Matt's apartment, and the check that Wesley made out to them from Confederated Global, so clearly Fisk did present some sort of proof. And even without the whole bit about Matt being Daredevil, Nelson & Murdock were still doing some shady as hell stuff in season 1 (on paper, at least). So really, Fisk uses real facts to implicate Nelson & Murdock, editing the truth to make them look suspicious and he actually doesn't need to falsify anything.
- One can only wonder how this would've gone if Matt weren't isolated from his loved ones. Here's how it'd go: Fisk names Matt as an 'associate', the FBI go to Matt's apartment, and Matt is there to immediately address the various accusations Fisk made against him by saying, “Provide some proof.” The words of convicted felons don’t normally hold up that well in court; they’re used to aid an ongoing investigation (which is why the testimony of jailhouse snitches is typically frowned upon). People in prison can’t just confess to whatever to get leniency; people do this all the time and the cops don’t even investigate unless they have a strong reason to believe them in the first place, and only after the story is confirmed do they take it seriously. So, Matt would immediately tell Nadeem, "Whatever Fisk told you, he's lying." So Nadeem confronts Fisk and perhaps Fisk then serves up Foggy's brother as someone for the FBI to target.
- If Matt were there when the FBI showed up to talk to him, well, it'd have made things very complicated. Just interacting with Nadeem might not be enough to prompt Matt to reach out to Foggy, it being more likely that Foggy would reach out to Matt first. In the mental state Matt is in at that point, he would’ve wanted Foggy to stay as far away from him (and the case against him) as possible, out of a combination of guilt, fear, and arrogance. (”Oh no, this is exactly what Foggy said at the precinct would happen, I’ll get him disbarred, this is my fault and my problem to deal with, Foggy can’t help anyway…”) Instead, Matt probably would’ve just lawyered for himself. The first difficulty for Matt would be that reasonable suspicion isn't a terribly high standard: it’s simply the reasonable belief that criminal activity is occurring. Police officers are allowed to detain someone that they have reasonable suspicion is engaged in/about to engage in criminal activity. True, the reasonable suspicion arises almost entirely from Fisk’s statements, and of course Fisk is a convict. That damages the reliability of his statements. However, Fisk’s testimony has also proved itself (repeatedly!) to be reliable (thanks to his tip on the Albanians). Furthermore, because Fisk isn’t some anonymous tipster, Nadeem has had the chance to basically cross-examine Fisk for his reliability. Taken together, there's enough for Nadeem to convince a judge to give a search warrant to search Matt’s home and, once he finds Matt, to question him. Matt’s best argument in this case would be to point to the fact that he’s behind Fisk’s original arrest. But that wouldn't be enough to trump reasonable suspicion, and it's hard to imagine how Matt could exonerate himself from allegations that he's working for Fisk without admitting that he's Daredevil. So is there enough evidence for a conviction? Definitely not. Probably not even enough for an indictment, either. But enough at minimum for an arrest.
If Matt had the guts to reach out to Foggy, though, Foggy could’ve taken what Matt would’ve told him about Jasper Evans and run with it, and the two of them plus Karen would have been able to figure out Fisk’s conspiracy even without the help of Marci’s briefs. Altering the course of Matt's journey by having him target Fisk's co-conspirators in an effort to get them to turn against Fisk. - If Matt had been taken for questioning by the FBI, it’s entirely possible that Karen might have interrupted them. The FBI didn’t place him or Foggy under arrest, so it’s conceivable that he would have still been there when Karen showed up. If he did get hauled in for questioning, it wouldn’t be surprising if Foggy and/or Marci showed up to provide back-up for Matt, and the two of them could have turned the tables on the FBI’s interrogation.
- In real life, at least, the FBI actually moves pretty slowly in this respect. They can do surveillance on a suspect for months or years. They're not like the NYPD in that respect, especially when they're investigating non-violent crimes, so they're not worried about more criminal activity or violent behavior. They'll move in early if they think someone is destroying evidence. They also tread VERY cautiously with lawyers. In real life, Fisk would probably have had to produce some real paperwork (which might take a few days, since it was all done through Wesley) to give them something to go on, and then they would probably try to follow Matt around. And since Matt was missing, they might just throw their hands up and not move on it at all. The FBI would take a look at Matt, notice that hey, he's missing and his apartment has nothing, and would've instead raided Foggy's apartment.
- If Matt were there when the FBI showed up to talk to him, well, it'd have made things very complicated. Just interacting with Nadeem might not be enough to prompt Matt to reach out to Foggy, it being more likely that Foggy would reach out to Matt first. In the mental state Matt is in at that point, he would’ve wanted Foggy to stay as far away from him (and the case against him) as possible, out of a combination of guilt, fear, and arrogance. (”Oh no, this is exactly what Foggy said at the precinct would happen, I’ll get him disbarred, this is my fault and my problem to deal with, Foggy can’t help anyway…”) Instead, Matt probably would’ve just lawyered for himself. The first difficulty for Matt would be that reasonable suspicion isn't a terribly high standard: it’s simply the reasonable belief that criminal activity is occurring. Police officers are allowed to detain someone that they have reasonable suspicion is engaged in/about to engage in criminal activity. True, the reasonable suspicion arises almost entirely from Fisk’s statements, and of course Fisk is a convict. That damages the reliability of his statements. However, Fisk’s testimony has also proved itself (repeatedly!) to be reliable (thanks to his tip on the Albanians). Furthermore, because Fisk isn’t some anonymous tipster, Nadeem has had the chance to basically cross-examine Fisk for his reliability. Taken together, there's enough for Nadeem to convince a judge to give a search warrant to search Matt’s home and, once he finds Matt, to question him. Matt’s best argument in this case would be to point to the fact that he’s behind Fisk’s original arrest. But that wouldn't be enough to trump reasonable suspicion, and it's hard to imagine how Matt could exonerate himself from allegations that he's working for Fisk without admitting that he's Daredevil. So is there enough evidence for a conviction? Definitely not. Probably not even enough for an indictment, either. But enough at minimum for an arrest.
- With the exception of Nadeem, the other FBI agents were secretly working for Fisk by then.
Matt's day after the cab drowning
- Where was Matt during that entire night and day after he escaped the cab?
Hattley's denial of Nadeem's promotions
- Was she doing that as part of Fisk's machinations (to make Nadeem desperate enough to want to make the informant deal work) or was she doing that of her own accord to keep him out of Fisk's machine (given he'd killed one of her kids and blackmailed her with the threat of having the other one meet the same fate)?
- That's probably Alternate Character Interpretation fodder. Either situation sounds likely.
Seema's logic
- Why does Nadeem’s wife go full scale judge mode on him after the shootout at his house? She's blaming the wrong people. Families of law enforcement can and often do get targeted by criminals, so she should have left him when long ago if she wanted a safe life. She has no right to blame him for the evil of others, truth or not. And how exactly would the situation be any better if he told her what was going on? “Oh honey, I've been forced to work for this mob boss now and our lives are now in danger”. Cops often have to hide information from their family for legal reasons anyway.
- It was more that Seema was upset that Ray lied to her again. See, he lied before regarding what he'd been up to, and she forgave him and he promised to be honest from then on out. Then he lied again. Ray may have had good intentions for lying (to keep them out of Fisk's crosshairs), but when you start lying to your partner, it's gonna become near impossible for them to ever fully trust you again, and then you don't see them the same anymore. That's why Seema was hurt. Ray lied and destroyed her trust in him. And because of him withholding this information, she was now faced with potentially dying with her son. Whereas if he had been honest, she could have made decisions prior that prevented her and her son from being targeted like that. At least in her mind. The strains of the Nadeems' marriage have a parallel to the strains of Matt's relationship with Karen. When Karen learned Matt's secret at the end of season 2, she wasn't upset about Matt being Daredevil, she was upset about him and Foggy having kept her in the dark. He promised to be truthful to her from there on out, but then in The Defenders he lied again about not wanting to be Daredevil again, which is why things were so distant between them in season 3 when Matt finally reached out to her on tracking down Jasper Evans, and didn't really warm up until Karen got those words of wisdom from Matt's mother.
Dex's choices of targets
- In the Bulletin attack, why (aside from Jasper Evans) did Dex suddenly stop killing people after fighting Matt, when he'd had no qualms with killing all those innocents upon entering the newsroom? It's not even that he didn't want to kill any of the remaining people. Hell, he was about to kill Foggy when he first saw him. And now when Foggy punches him he's fine with just...knocking him aside instead? Why not kill him when he was originally planning to anyways? It would take him like a second with how skilled he is. Why not kill Ellison too, as opposed to just injuring him?
- Ellison's survival seemed to be more out of luck than anything else. He was stabbed in the gut which could have killed him and certainly was bad enough to put him in the hospital, and must not have punctured any vital organs, since five episodes later (roughly three or four days later), he's already out and going about his business like a normal day when Karen seeks him out to tell him about the grand jury. As for Karen, Fisk needed her alive in order to further destroy her career as she had been a thorn in his side even longer than Matt (this is before he learned about her having killed Wesley). Yes, Dex did try to kill Foggy earlier when he and Matt got to the newsroom. However, Matt then proceeded to fight Dex, which lasted several minutes. By the time Dex had overpowered and defeated Matt, the police were on their way, which meant he was pressed for time, which meant he stuck to just rattling Karen and killing Jasper Evans.
"It was Daredevil"
- How did Nadeem think the "Daredevil" (Dex) he saw in the Bulletin committed the killings? Sure, we know Dex did, but wouldn't the more logical conclusion for Nadeem be that Daredevil was there to stop the killings and failed to save anyone but Karen and Foggy, while the other guy they were chasing was the killer? I'd also say this is the (technically true) story Karen and Foggy should've gone along with to preserve Daredevil's reputation.
- It was on film. They have the camera running when Dex goes into the room with Karen, so they have a recording of him killing Jasper and greeting Karen.
- From the mess of the crime scene, someone should have thought that two equally matched people were fighting here: "Daredevil" and whoever tried to stop him. They also managed to shoot Dex, you’d think they could ID him from the blood.
Could Ray Nadeem's death have been prevented?
- Obviously, once Dex showed up, that was the end for Ray, but could Matt, Karen and Foggy have done anything to keep Ray alive long enough to see Fisk get indicted?
- If Matt had had his head in the game, yes. It's pretty clear that Matt had been completely distracted after the botched grand jury, and he had been single-mindedly focused on Fisk. If Matt had been firmly focused on the immediate danger that Ray was in (especially given the assassination attempt that just happened while Matt was escorting Ray to the courthouse), he would’ve remembered that Ray still needed protection and was still in danger. It's hard to know what Matt would've done, whether that be to have the Nadeems stay in hiding at Brett's place until Matt could bring down Fisk, or have them check in to an upstate motel under assumed names.
- If Nadeem had survived being shot, the season would still have ended with the three way fight between Matt, Fisk, and Dex that we saw at the end. Matt would have brought up the video or Nadeem being in a coma during his "I BEAT YOU" speech. But there wouldn't really be a big overall impact on what comes afterwards aside from an extra scene with Nadeem reuniting with his family in the hospital. It's also likely that non-corrupt higher ups in the FBI might seek to keep Nadeem out of prison as one of the few who are not deeply involved enough with Fisk to have been compromised beyond a place of redemption.
- Nadeem chose to sacrifice himself. He let himself die to protect his family and so that the video he recorded would count as a dying declaration and be usable in court.
- His confession video would still be usable regardless if he lived or died. Per the "dying declaration" heresy exemption loophole, such a confession is still admissible as long as the person believed that he was going to die at that moment. There's a catch to this, though: it loses its value if the person lives. Because in those circumstances, the court may then compel the person to come himself and speak. And Fisk wouldn't have let that happen fairly. In that case, Matt and Foggy would've arranged for Nadeem to testify from a remote location, or maybe fought with Tower to see if they could find a way to let Nadeem's confession video be his testimony, or just use his testimony from the botched grand jury hearing as evidence.
- If Nadeem had lived, well, there are four requirements for the “dying declaration” heresy exception under the Federal Rules of Evidence. His confession would meet three of the four criteria:
- 1) the declarant (Nadeem) is unavailable. The declarant doesn’t actually have to be dead to be unavailable. If Nadeem lived, his statement would still be admissible if he asserted his 5th-Amendment rights against self-incrimination and therefore didn’t testify or if he, like, ran away and no one could find him. (Or if he lost his memory of the events but that’s unlikely.) Pleading the 5th seems the most likely, so let’s go with that.
- 2) it’s either a homicide case or a civil case. This one is met since Nadeem can testify to Fisk ordering FBI agents to commit murders for him.
- 3) the declarant subjectively believed death was imminent. This is pretty self-explanatory.
- 4) the statement concerns the causes/circumstances of death. This might be the hardest point to argue, since Nadeem calls the video his dying declaration and it’s pretty obvious to viewers why he believes he’s gonna die, but he doesn’t explicitly spell it out. I doubt a prosecutor would have a hard time making that argument, though.
- Whether or not Nadeem died, he made that video confession with the intention of it being mass-released. Once out there on the Internet, it really wouldn’t matter whether his information was true or not, and it wouldn't matter whether he lived or died. Even if the tape didn't lead to Fisk being arrested, it would do an awful lot of damage to his reputation, and it would also damage the FBI’s reputation. On the FBI end, it would probably lead to more investigations of what was going on, especially of the agents named by Nadeem in his video, with OPR likely going down hard on those agents and pressuring them into talking (and these agents wouldn't have any reason to stay silent, especially since most of them were blackmailed).
- As explained here, a “dying declaration” refers to out of court statements offered for the truth of the matter asserted which are not excluded by the hearsay rule. The Federal Rules of Evidence reference the exception as a “Statement Under the Belief of Imminent Death.” The text of the Rule states: "In a prosecution for homicide or in a civil case, a statement that the declarant, while believing the declarant’s death to be imminent, made about its cause or circumstances."
- Nadeem’s statement arguably is NOT a dying declaration under the Federal Rules of Evidence, because the statement is not directly related to his cause of death. There is also an argument that his death was not imminent, because he had not yet been visited by Dex. That does not mean the confession could come in other ways. Such as at the state level, as New York's interpretation of dying declarations' validity requires the remarks to be “in extremis, but must also have spoken under a sense of impending death, with no hope of recovery.”
- The article goes further to say that prosecutors could offer Nadeem’s confession against Fisk and other FBI agents as “an opposing party statement,” because the recording could be offered against Nadeem as a criminal defendant and in his participation into Fisk’s criminal conspiracy, and Nadeem is “unavailable” to testify in court, per USCS Fed Rules Evid R 801(d)(2)(E). While such a statement does not establish a conspiracy, the statement would not be excluded by the hearsay rule. Another option is to offer the confession as a Statement Against Interest, which require the following requirements to be met: 1) that a reasonable person in the declarant’s position would have made these remarks only if the person believed it to be true because, when made, it was so contrary to the declarant’s proprietary or pecuniary interest or had so great a tendency to invalidate the declarant’s claim against someone else or to expose the declarant to civil or criminal liability; and 2) it's supported by corroborating circumstances that clearly indicate its trustworthiness, if it is offered in a criminal case as one that tends to expose the declarant to criminal liability.
It's rare that someone would ever admit to being an accessory to murder. Such an admission would subject Nadeem to criminal prosecution. This video admission would meet the first requirements of the rule, because it exposed Nadeem to criminal liability. The second element could be met because there is corroborating evidence: Nadeem’s own death, which evidence would show was a straight-up execution. While not on its face proof of a conspiracy, it's definitely evidence to use in prosecuting those named in the video.
Matt, Karen, and Jasper Evans
- How did Matt find Jasper's drug den? Was he following Karen or had he looked up Jasper's son's last known address by himself?
- They seem to imply that Matt may have gotten Jasper's address from the prison warden. He clearly wasn't following Karen, given that he was already inside the house when Karen entered the place. The reason he reached out to Karen to tell him this lead is because he wanted to apologize, but being Matt Murdock he couldn’t quite do that. This is his very twisted version of “I’m sorry, please help me.” She loves him, so she goes. The dialogue between Matt and Karen after Matt subdues Jasper's guards, and Matt's "I hoped" in response to Karen asking if he was waiting for her, seem to imply it was all a Secret Test of Character.
Matt's identification of Vic Jusufi
- So how exactly did Matt identify Vic Jusufi as the Albanian boss at the prison he needed to talk to for information about Fisk's shanking? It's pretty unclear.
- Vic is the head of the Albanian mob and the guy who got caught because of Fisk's intel. If it's going to be anyone, it's going to be him.
- Vic is not the head of the Albanian syndicate. He might be one of Mother Theresa's right hands that got bagged on Fisk's intel. As to how Matt found out about him, well, he visits the prison under the pretense of a visit to a former client of his named Michael. The conversation they have establishes that Michael apparently used to do some grunt work for the Albanians. It's likely that Vic could've been brought up during that case.
"Office manager"
- When correcting Nadeem in episode 5 and Fisk in episode 8, Karen insists that at Nelson & Murdock, she was not the secretary but the "office manager". Uh, Karen, you do know that "office manager" means there are people beneath you that you manage, right?
- Not really. Office manager is a real position that means you manage the office. Secretary generally just means you assist someone with administrative tasks.
- In Karen's eyes, Matt and Foggy were beneath her. She was their office manager because she managed their office. She took care of literally everything from buying the coffee to taking notes in the meetings to doing client visits without one of them accompanying her. She could also just be overselling herself.
- Karen's correction is also somewhat reflective of society in the 21st century. Many people these days find the word secretary to be demeaning, so much so that when men became secretaries, many places started switching to gender-neutral terms like “administrative assistant” because men will not take titles that are associated with women, even if the title itself is not a gendered word.
Nadeem's death scene
- When Dex shows up at Nadeem's house to kill him in episode 12, why would he use his empathy line "it's really hard" to start the conversation? He killed Nadeem seconds later, but the line implies he was trying to make it easier on him. On its own, I could understand that, but Dex hates Nadeem at this point in time for helping Matt and Karen escape from him in the church, and Fisk's ensuing disappointment at Dex. Also, was there a reason why Nadeem wanted to die outside his house?
- He was outside looking at the pool he promised to his son. From the dialogue in Ray's introductory scene in episode 1, it seemed like the pool was pretty important to him. Perhaps to Ray, the hole in the ground represented how he failed as a father and couldn’t make good on his promises. How Fisk and Dex took an honest man and manipulated him for their needs. Or maybe Nadeem didn’t want his house to be a crime scene; he didn’t want to taint the site of so many fond memories with his death.
- Dex doesn't hate Nadeem. He just needs to kill him because he's a liability who knows too much. It's like when he wanted to kill his psychiatrist because her death felt like abandoning him.
Why not turn to the NYPD for help?
- Why don't any of the main trio ever turn to the NYPD for assistance when they're unable to trust the FBI? For instance, with Nadeem, why didn't Matt, Karen and Foggy have him turn himself in to the NYPD rather than do the grand jury thing?
- The idea was to get Nadeem in front of a grand jury and get Fisk indicted before Fisk got a chance to influence the jurors. That's why Tower secretly keeps a grand jury convened without telling them what it's about. Fisk works it out, though, and manages to get to them anyway.
Karen's visit to Fisk
- What would've happened on Karen's visit to Fisk if Matt had gone with her / if Matt, not Foggy, had been the one to intervene when she brought up Wesley's death?
- The first thing that would have to be cleared is whether Matt would have gone as Daredevil or as Matt Murdock, because those would be two completely different scenarios. What likely would've happened is that Matt would have tried to stop Karen at all cost, remembering his visit to Fisk in prison back in season 2. Which wouldn’t have been good for their relationship in the slightest. He probably would have wanted to play the hero, and Karen would not have been happy. Karen needs that moment with Fisk to grow. She is standing up for what she believes in, she is getting in the game. It's important for Karen, because while a major player in the story, she has always been the background gal, Oracle style. When Karen visits Fisk, she's consciously CHOOSING to put her life on the line. In season 1, she didn’t know that what she was doing would put her in danger. Here, she does know. She knows how close Wesley and Fisk were, and she chooses to go on this suicide mission anyway. Whether that's stupid or brave is up to the viewer's interpretation.
If Matt went to the hotel as Matt Murdock, it's hard to say whether Fisk would have allowed him in alongside Karen or he would force Matt to wait outside the room, given his knowledge of Matt's secret identity. If Karen refused Matt's offer to tag along, he likely would have gone as Daredevil and he would have crept into the penthouse through the secret room of monitors where Mrs. Shelby is stationed, and in either case, beat the shit out of Fisk when he made a move on Karen.
It's hard to say what would have happened if Matt had replaced Foggy as Karen's “savior” here, nor whether it would've been better for them. Yeah, the emotions would have been high and another emotional scene for these two is always good, but… it might have caused a lot more damage. To be fair, it's also hard to say how Karen would have gotten out of this situation had Foggy not intervened. At this point Karen and Matt’s relationship is still not in a good place. They need their church-basement-talk to get there. They need Karen CHOOSING to tell Matt about Wesley and later Kevin. They need to trust each other again. If Matt were the one to intervene, a likely outcome is that his and Karen's relationship would take several big steps back, because from Karen's perspective, it would have been another indicator that he thinks she can’t handle herself. That might have been a step too far. Even after leaving her, “protecting” her, and her explicitly telling him that she doesn’t need his protection. That his near-death experience didn’t change him at all. - There is a fundamental flaw here. Matt rescues Karen, Karen doesn’t think she needs rescuing. That’s why it’s better that Foggy does it, because there is less baggage there. Unlike Matt, Foggy has never really done the whole "I must protect Karen at all costs" act. Foggy “saving” Karen, is more a friend helping out a friend. Karen is still pissed at Foggy ("I had him!"). Imagine how pissed she would have been had it been Matt who walked through that door. On top of that, bear in mind that at this point in time, Foggy knows about Karen having killed Wesley, but Matt doesn't. So instead of Karen choosing to tell Matt her secrets, she ends up instead being forced to tell him about Wesley, or even worse, he would overhear it in Fisk's bedroom. The end result is that Karen would be essentially robbed of all of her agency, which would be depressing, both from a character POV as well as a storytelling one. Rather than Karen choosing to tell Matt, it would turn into another part of her personality that he can idealize. It would just be used to fuel his own angst, and that’s boring. It’s not like Matt doesn’t have enough angst in his life.
At this point, the whole "superhero-must-save-love-interest" cliche is played out. The guy has to save the girl from the villain. Karen can handle herself… kinda. What she was doing in visiting Fisk was not particularly smart at all. It was impulsive, it was incredibly stupid, and obviously backfired. BUT she chose to do it. However twisted and self-sacrificing it was, she chose to do it. The agency that provides her is the important thing. In these sort of shows/movies, the woman’s choice is usually taken from her. The woman usually inhabits a reactionary role, rather than a proactive one. Karen in this scene is the definition of proactive. She is taking the initiative. She is choosing to stay to protect Matt / take down Fisk. Karen’s her own person; she isn’t in the show to support Matt or be saved by Matt.- Worth noting is that Karen actually didn't plan to tell Fisk about Wesley. Her plan was to use his mother and him killing his father, to provoke him to attack her, but when he brings up the Bulletin and Matt, she feels horrible about betraying Matt (since it's hard to say if Matt had told her that his identity had been compromised when he approached her with the Jasper Evans lead), so she then decides to tell Fisk about Wesley. In that moment, she didn't care getting killed or the aftermath.
- The likeliest scenario that would've played out if it had been Matt who intervened is that he would enter through the secret command center. He'd get up to the bedroom, just as Karen revealed that she killed Wesley. Fisk would attack Karen and begin choking the life out of her with his bare hands, prompting Matt to attack Fisk. The surprise attack would be enough to get Fisk to let go of Karen and redirect all his rage onto Matt. The result would be a fight much like their first one-on-one fight in season 1 at the docks after Matt set Nobu on fire. Matt would fight harder, but would also be very vulnerable. With Karen present, his senses would be split between fighting Fisk and making sure Karen was okay. The end result is that between Matt being distracted, and Fisk being in an unstoppable rage, he would lose badly and be beaten unconscious by Fisk while his guards hold Karen and force her to watch. Afterwards, he would compose himself and direct them to take Matt and Karen away to be killed elsewhere. There would be another fight scene as Matt and Karen fought the agents in the elevator.
- Alternately, it would've been a drag-out fight that starts as a Matt and Karen vs. Fisk fight then turns into a Matt and Karen vs. Fisk and his FBI guards.
- How things would play out if Matt had been Karen's savior here, depends a little on Matt’s mood. Whether he was there in lawyer mode and essentially pulled the same stunt as Foggy did, or whether he came to fight and just charged in and broke Fisk’s nose. So either the scene itself plays out essentially the same or with a quick fight scene. But then Matt and Karen would have a follow up about why she did that and they’d have an argument. It would be more heated because Karen’s feelings for Matt (and vice versa) means that disagreements between them hurt more (plus Matt having to learn the truth about Wesley). The argument would, from Matt's end, be one of "Why didn't you trust me with this?" and maybe rip into her in a, “You’re strong, Karen. You’re a fighter. But you don’t fight the way Fisk does. He isn’t going to come at you through the law or through the news. He’s going to send his new assassin after you, the one who damn near killed me.”
It would have changed Matt’s trajectory in those last couple episodes. Because if Matt interrupts that, he knows that Karen is in danger of being targeted by Fisk, so he probably doesn’t show up at the penthouse while Karen is hiding in the church. Which means that he is there from the start to protect her when Dex arrives at the church, and maybe less people die at the church– maybe Father Lantom lives. Or the attack at the church never happens because she would already be with Matt, so she wouldn’t show up at the church to tell him that Fisk knows his identity. So the attack takes place somewhere else entirely. However, that would mellow the emotions of the scenes that follow the attack where Matt and Karen are in the crypt and they wouldn’t argue about him having to come there to save her (because they likely would have already fought about her being reckless), and it probably prevents them from having the drawn out heart to heart that allows them to move past their issues that have been holding them back for so long. Maybe the scene doesn’t happen at all because if they’re not at the church, they’re not stuck in the crypt. So that progress in their relationship would probably take longer in coming, though it still would have happened eventually. Just maybe not within the course of the season.- How Matt would've reacted in regards to the Wesley topic, is that he would’ve set that aside to deal with the urgency of the immediate situation. Once Karen was safe, they’d have a discussion. The sad thing about this version of the story is that both Karen and Matt would suffer for the lack of choice. It’s supposed to be a huge expression of trust for Karen to choose to reveal her secret to Matt, and they both know it. (See Matt’s “I”m glad you told me” at the end of Season 3.) Having him overhear it might lead to more angst, but at the expense of character development for both of them.
- Judging from previous encounters, the fight that would happen between Matt and Fisk would've played out much like the fight Matt had with him and Nobu at the docks. Matt would have gotten stomped into the ground and Karen would have barely gotten him out of there in one piece via some last-minute (and slightly problematic) cleverness. Matt is incapable of winning a fight against Wilson Fisk unless it is the last episode of a season or last issue of a story arc.
- As cool as it would be to have Matt rescue her, the writers wanted it to be Karen's choice when she wanted to tell Matt about Wesley and her brother, to parallel his choice to tell her about Daredevil. Realistically, he wouldn't save her from Fisk without also hearing her confession, which would probably take away her choice. If the writers wanted a fight between Matt and Fisk prior to the climax, Matt's intervention when Karen talks to Fisk would've been an ideal time to do it. But the stakes of the climax would've hence differed. Fisk was basically untouchable throughout the season, at least by Matt. It made his situation seem more desperate, and also made Dex more important, since he basically cleared the way for Matt to get to Fisk at last in the finale by taking out Fisk's guards. And the real stakes in any Matt v. Fisk fight isn't "Who will win?" but rather, "How far will they go?" and an earlier fight wouldn't necessarily have added to that tension.
- The final fight scene is the only time Matt and Fisk are in the same room the whole season. Certainly a fight at the penthouse following Karen’s confession would have upped the stakes, especially if Matt was badly injured and the FBI managed to capture him. That being said, the fight with Dex at the Bulletin could be viewed as a fight between Matt and Fisk. Even in the aftermath, Matt isn’t really pissed at Dex, so much as he's pissed at Fisk as the person who hired Dex. That also results in Matt’s decision to kill Fisk, which would have been the mindset he’d have been in at the penthouse with Karen, and the FBI would have had to intervene because then either Fisk would kill Matt or the other way around.
- The first thing that would have to be cleared is whether Matt would have gone as Daredevil or as Matt Murdock, because those would be two completely different scenarios. What likely would've happened is that Matt would have tried to stop Karen at all cost, remembering his visit to Fisk in prison back in season 2. Which wouldn’t have been good for their relationship in the slightest. He probably would have wanted to play the hero, and Karen would not have been happy. Karen needs that moment with Fisk to grow. She is standing up for what she believes in, she is getting in the game. It's important for Karen, because while a major player in the story, she has always been the background gal, Oracle style. When Karen visits Fisk, she's consciously CHOOSING to put her life on the line. In season 1, she didn’t know that what she was doing would put her in danger. Here, she does know. She knows how close Wesley and Fisk were, and she chooses to go on this suicide mission anyway. Whether that's stupid or brave is up to the viewer's interpretation.
What if Foggy hadn't intervened?
- How would Karen's visit to Fisk have ended if Foggy hadn't shown up in time? Would Fisk have beaten Karen to death? Would he had let her leave and dispatched Dex to the church as before?
- The agents outside were in Fisk's pocket and could have killed Karen, but it's unlikely that Fisk would have wanted to be there. Hurting women doesn’t seem to be his style. Yes, he had Elena Cardenas and Julie killed, and he ordered several hits on Karen, but he isn’t there for any of these. He isn’t killing her, it's his henchmen who are doing the killing. Even if he had been there, they would have had to do it off screen, which is a bit cheap. It works for Julie because she is not a main character. It wouldn’t work for Karen because she is, and her death should be on screen.
It's also unlikely that the writers would have allowed Karen to get the same beating as Matt. A fully grown bodybuilder beating an unarmed woman half his size, with his bare hands, that’s not something anyone should commit to film or any other type of medium. Even at 1/10 of what Fisk did to Matt in prison is not okay. A man beating a woman would not even be in the region of okay. - The most likely scenario is that perhaps Fisk would've played things out exactly in the way Wesley had threatened Karen with before she killed him: he would've let her leave the penthouse. While that was going on, he'd order hits on everyone she cared about first, saving her for last, prophesizing the threats Wesley made to her before she killed him. Fisk would send someone to Fagan Corners to kill her father, send someone else to kill Ellison in his hospital bed, he'd have Foggy and Matt disbarred and Theo arrested, and then would come for her.
- It's hard to imagine that all of the FBI agents on the detail were corrupt. There were undoubtedly a few of them who certainly were weren't corrupt. (Bear in mind, Karen doesn't know at this point that the FBI are crooked; she doesn't learn that until Matt tells her Dex's identity after the church attack) She was betting that the FBI agents would see Fisk attacking her, they would come in, pull him off her, and cuff him. However, since Foggy messed it up, all her plan amounted to was Fisk trying to kill her.
- It would not be in Fisk's best interest to do anything to Karen while she was in the hotel. A reporter (who has a history with Fisk from before he was arrested) going into Fisk's penthouse, and not coming out would start rumors. If Karen dies, gets imprisoned, or disappears, people would start questioning Fisk. The NYPD would open an investigation into Fisk (assuming Fisk doesn't still have cops on his payroll, which seems likely since it's hard to imagine Carl Hoffman named every cop taking bribes from Fisk). If Karen comes out alive with injuries, she would take Fisk to court and testify against him for attacking her. Whatever happens, it would have been very messy for Fisk to kill Karen there in the penthouse. What is in Fisk's best interests is arranging a fate for Karen that ensures her death can't be traced back to him, as he ultimately decides in sending Dex after her.
- There's real world precedence for this, regarding the death of Washington Post reporter Jamal Khashoggi. He was a journalist that went into a Saudi Arabian consulate and never emerged alive. At first, the Saudi government tried to say he left and mysteriously went missing. Then the story changed to "he died during an interrogation gone wrong." They kept changing their story about his death, but the consensus of many journalists and pundits were that the Saudis sent a hit squad to assassinate Kashoggi and ensure he never left the consulate alive.
- Fisk’s physical prowess is immense. Even Matt is taken aback by it in season 2. Granted, Matt was counting on the prison guards for cover, which turns out to be a mistake in and of itself. But walking out, it’s clear he’s disoriented, and it’s not the first time that Fisk has done a number on him in a fight. That's important for a couple reasons: one, in the heat of the moment, it takes Fisk time to realize that killing Matt in cold blood isn’t the kind of punishment that Matt deserves. The only reason Fisk stops in prison is because he knows he can do better. Two, even those first few blows are enough to derail Matt, who knows how to take a hit. Oh, also, three, those blows are for Matt’s threats against Vanessa, who is still alive and would simply be barred from returning to the States, not for someone who was murdered in what Fisk perceives as cold blood.
The thought of Fisk getting his hands on Karen for killing Wesley means that it's hard to get to the aftermath without thinking that’s how Karen dies, or at the very least, ends up in the hospital with a few broken limbs. She isn’t trained, like Matt, though she’s made of similar mettle, for sure. She confessed to killing Fisk’s dearest friend, a friend that Fisk assumed he had avenged when he killed Owlsley (he thought Owlsley had killed Wesley because Wesley found out about Owlsley stealing from Fisk). Karen is also committed, like Matt, to not fighting back. If Fisk grabbed her the way he had Matt and slammed her head into the table even a few times, Karen’s life is in serious jeopardy.
And given where Karen’s confession comes in the series, it's easy to imagine that Fisk would manage to get away with whatever he did too. The FBI would have no evidence for what incited the attack, but honestly, by that point, do they even need it? Fisk has the Bureau bought and paid for. Scant episodes later, he’s bought the grand jury to ensure Nadeem's testimony can't indict him. Fisk would try to get control of the situation, give them a way to lay the blame on Karen. If we’re assuming that Foggy is there when it happened, the scene would be even more tragic, since people would be scrambling to call an ambulance for a badly battered Karen, the FBI would be trying to usher him out of the apartment, and Fisk would be standing there, blood on his hands, almost apologetic-looking.
At best case, Karen's original intended plan would work, and perhaps the bought FBI agents like Hattley would decide that enough was enough and send Fisk back to prison, which would result in the final episodes of the season being dedicated to Dex as the main villain struggling to adapt now that another of his North Stars has disappeared from his life. The problem with this kind of ending is that it would undermines Karen’s sacrifice: season 3 is about Matt proving that he can win by his own beliefs, his own faith. Karen dying or almost dying to put Fisk away would therefore either be read as a noble act (which would undermine her character) or it would be seen as a fruitless one (which would also undermine her character).
- The agents outside were in Fisk's pocket and could have killed Karen, but it's unlikely that Fisk would have wanted to be there. Hurting women doesn’t seem to be his style. Yes, he had Elena Cardenas and Julie killed, and he ordered several hits on Karen, but he isn’t there for any of these. He isn’t killing her, it's his henchmen who are doing the killing. Even if he had been there, they would have had to do it off screen, which is a bit cheap. It works for Julie because she is not a main character. It wouldn’t work for Karen because she is, and her death should be on screen.
- As Foggy said, Fisk would have broken her like a twig. Fisk might have to handle the situation better afterward with the NYPD, but in the moment, he was going to kill her without thinking like he did with Ben Urich.
Karen's confession about Wesley
- I can get why Fisk would send Dex after Karen to avenge Wesley. But after the hit failed, why didn't he release the video footage of her confessing to that crime to his face? That could've done a lot of damage to her. Is it because Fisk doesn't want to risk the FBI actually recording everything he says and Karen just got lucky? And surely Matt would've had some problems too because the press would have heard that conversation about Matt being Daredevil.
- Fisk has control of the more important FBI agents, which gives him a lot of discretion over when the cameras are actually recording. But not every agent is corrupt and the ones that aren't would've left the cameras on. Plus, Fisk is careful with his word choices. He doesn't outright say "At what point did you learn that Mr. Murdock is Daredevil?" he uses the vaguer “At what point did you learn about Mr. Murdock's secret life?”, which given his accusations in episode 5, is something that could easily be interpreted as instead being confirmation that Matt was working with Fisk.
Why doesn't Fisk go after Foggy?
- I'm stunned that Foggy’s “make myself so visible, Fisk can’t touch me” scheme actually worked. Why didn’t Fisk send Dex after him? Or someone else? Making Foggy’s life a living hell wouldn’t be that hard. Yes Fisk has leverage over Foggy's family with the whole matter of the loan from Red Lion Bank, but… there were more buttons to push. He could've ruined Foggy's career, which would have forced him to go solo. Building a law firm is insanely hard, building it by yourself, and with a shit reputation is impossible. Breaking Foggy would have been easy. He’s not Matt, he doesn’t have this crazy self-destructive need to protect, unlike Matt who is willing to suffer incredible pain to protect the ones he loves without question. There's so many things Fisk could've done to Foggy, like threaten Marci, have them both disbarred, to actually shutting down his family’s shop. It's weird that Fisk didn't take that route.
- A possible reason for this is that Fisk and Matt have an almost unhealthy obsession with one another. That, and Foggy is consistently underestimated, which is impressive because he has a tendency to prove himself under pressure, too. Fisk wasn't looking at the smaller pieces like Karen and Foggy as much as he was looking at Matt. Perhaps it was partly overestimation of his own abilities, too. That same overconfidence that screwed him over regarding Dex in the end, too. (He clearly had no way of knowing what Dex would do if he found out the truth about Julie)
- Another thing to consider is that Matt and Karen each gave Fisk a very direct "Come at me", so to speak, whereas Foggy had a bit more subtle tactics. Though, realistically there should have been more media coverage of his DA campaign. Foggy challenged Fisk, but he didn't do so in the direct way Matt and Karen each did, and that may have made her more of a target. She knew it. She wanted it. It's part of the characters' personality types. Foggy's more of the subtle tactics type, and Karen and Matt are more of the "tackle the issue and get in its face" type. So, maybe because of that, Fisk didn't worry as much about Foggy. That, and one of Fisk's key tactics is to hit people where it hurts them the most. Perhaps he felt that Foggy was much more concerned about his family than being disbarred or whatever else, though that would have been a pretty big blow for Foggy, too. Let's not forget that Fisk's kind of "help" is the "throw others under the bus" type, as Nadeem pointed out with the Jiggy story in episode 7.
- Hell, what would've even happened if Fisk had gone after Foggy in a "hell-hath-no-fury-like-a-bad-man-scorned" way? What would Matt have done? He clearly doesn’t want to involve anyone. Foggy has no way of contacting Matt, to even tell him what’s going on. It would've changed Matt and Karen's motives for bringing in Jasper Evans. Hell, Fisk would have probably been able to force Matt to make some really tough choices. Could Fisk make Matt give up Daredeviling? Could Matt choose between his friends and his night job, in a "You give up Daredeviling and Foggy is safe, you go back on the streets and something bad happens to him" way? What if Karen was in Foggy’s place? Even in associating with Matt, Karen and Foggy made a choice. Karen more than Foggy, but still, Foggy said in Nelson v. Murdock, “you really think that anyone would believe that I didn’t know what you were doing? That Karen didn’t know?”
- Marci would have rolled some heads. What seems to be implied by dialogue and whatnot was that Matt was not in a whole lot of danger of having the bogus charges against him do anything. The real problem was mainly that in clearing those charges that he worked for Fisk, the FBI would discover all the unscrupulous and illegal things he was actually doing. So if Foggy had been targeted, he would have been in a much better position because if the FBI investigated him, they’d find that he didn’t really do anything wrong (though they would've undoubtedly found out about his brother's fraud, and might suspect Foggy was involved in it). And Marci, Matt and maybe even Jeri Hogarth would have been on the warpath to protect him. While Foggy is cooperating with the FBI to clear his name, he’d be in real danger of Fisk sending Dex after him, but this likely would just mean Dex's attack on the Bulletin plays out the same way. It would also affect Matt’s mindset about not having friends to protect them, but here, he'd be torn: “See they're in danger because I made contact again, I need to isolate myself even more” or “Oh they're in danger even when I’m not around, I should let them back in so I can protect them”.
- It would be really difficult for Fisk to pull off a smear campaign against Foggy for a couple reasons. First, by episode 5, Foggy’s already starting to go public. People (especially the NYPD) won’t believe everything they hear against him. More importantly, is the fact that Foggy unlike Matt 1) didn’t suspiciously disappear; 2) has been plugged in with a legitimate law firm. This means Foggy has some solid alibis. This also (probably more importantly) means that Foggy’s in a position to sue the pants off Fisk for slander and the FBI for malicious prosecution. That would possibly slow down Foggy’s campaign, but at the same time, it would allow Foggy to take Fisk to court. So absent using the dirt he has on Theo to blackmail Foggy, it would be a bad strategy for Fisk.
- Admittedly, Fisk did have something on Foggy he could've used to mess with his career: Matt's prison visit, which he did using Foggy's Bar ID. He could've arranged for a letter to be sent to the Bar Association prompting them to open an investigation into Foggy and Matt on that, and Foggy's law license would be suspended for the duration of said investigation. Foggy would have had to give some explanation to the Bar along the lines of Matt being messed up psychologically by Midland Circle, then freaking out and making some impulsive choices upon hearing about Fisk's release. He wouldn't be able to call out Tower in public. Instead, Foggy would've had to take what he'd found from Marci's briefs to the Bulletin or to Tower's office. There'd also be a What the Hell, Hero? moment from Foggy to Matt where Foggy's like "You stole my ID to visit a prison and ask questions about Fisk! Did you really think that would have zero consequences?” It also would've likely complicated the situation for getting Nadeem legal representation when Matt and Foggy are plea-bargaining with Tower.
- Fisk has like ten better things to do than go hard on Foggy just for accusing him of criminal activity in public. And as Tower said in 3x12, the business with Fisk tricking Foggy's brother into committing fraud is enough to discredit him.
Why doesn't Fisk target Karen earlier?
- Clearly Fisk's people have some amount of dirt on Karen, given Felix Manning knew all about Karen's family and where she lived in Fagan Corners when she tried to speak to him at Red Lion. Fisk promised to dismantle Matt's and Foggy's lives when Matt visited him in prison in season 2, so with the information on Karen's past, why didn't Fisk make Karen a target earlier? It clearly wasn't that hard for Felix to dig into her past and find Kevin. Fisk easily could have made Karen’s life a living-hell, but he doesn’t.
- The most likely reason is that Fisk simply underestimates Karen. Remember, back in season 1, he had directed Wesley to leave Karen alone when they were cleaning house regarding Union Allied. It's why he's also clearly thrown off guard in the way he does when Karen reveals her role in Wesley's death: it isn't just that Karen killed his best friend, it's also that he is realizing just how much of a mistake it was to spare Karen on the Union Allied topic. In showing up to his penthouse with no backup, and willingly choosing to reveal how she murdered someone he considered to be like a son to him, she's making clear she's a much more dangerous foe intellectually than Matt could ever be.
- That said, it is strange that Fisk didn't try to go after Karen earlier, especially after the Bulletin attack where she gains some media attention, especially when Felix has done research and knows about her past. It might even have saved Fisk in the final two episodes. If he discredited her earlier, no one would have listened to her impromptu press conference. They would have just dismissed her, and Fisk might have been able to save himself. As Karen herself explains to Neda Kazemi in the hospital in episode 2, gossip has a way of sticking in people’s minds. It shapes the way they think about a thing or a person. With her credibility shot, she would have no longer been a threat to Fisk. Because no one, least of all the media, would have taken her seriously. Even further than that, with no one believing Karen, there would have been no one to support her. Fisk would be isolating her, and with Matt being Matt, and Foggy being with Marci, Karen would have been even more alone.
Had she been outed her entire life/career would have gone up in flames. She wouldn’t be able to get another job, except Nelson & Murdock, but even then, what if their clients were turned off by her? Being a private eye also relies on relative anonymity, as well as being able to have good relationships with sources. Neither of which Karen would have had she been outed. - It's odd that Fisk didn't use Karen's backstory against her, after having Felix Manning go through all the trouble of researching her. On the same token, though, when Karen made her visit to Fisk and provoked him, Fisk was rather busy. Note that the last five episodes of season 3 take place over a span of about three days. By the time Dex's attempt on Karen at the church failed, Fisk was pretty busy multitasking a bunch of other personal matters. He had very little time to come up with a backup plan for dealing with Karen, while also trying to plan for his wedding, get Vanessa settled in, obtain "Rabbit in a Snowstorm" from Mrs. Falb, win over the media, and keep his new band of criminal partners in line. Had some time gone by before Fisk was rearrested, he probably would've had an opportunity to make another shot to go after Karen. Maybe not necessarily kill her, but maybe he would threaten her father, since Ellison is too public a figure to be usable as leverage.
"Well, I am not going to sit here and wait for Matt to come to his senses."
- Uh, Karen, wouldn't that actually be the smart thing to do, to wait until Matt comes to his senses before pursuing Fisk? I get that stopping Fisk is important to you, but would it kill you to put your investigation on hold to focus on bringing in Matt, your friend who is clearly in need of help? Helping Matt should be more important than stopping Fisk. Hell, why not contact the police and ask them to bring in Matt, so they can lock him in a room and force him to see reason?
- This is at a time before Karen meets Matt face to face again. He's given no indication that he cares for her. He revealed himself to Foggy only to steal his wallet from him. Matt is continuing his path of actively punishing the people who love him. While the way Karen goes about trying to pursue Fisk is… not the best, it’s her choice and her plan. She'd rather do that than sit around waiting on the slim chance that Matt will save her, which she isn’t even sure he will. Karen is probably thinking along the lines of “if he really loved me he would come and see me”, which is quite reasonable. Matt isn’t exactly a reasonable person. Karen and Foggy’s primary motivation at this time isn’t "we have to save Matt from Fisk", but "we need to take down Fisk". They are trying to protect the city in their own way, using the law and the media to work against Fisk. They can’t fight, in the literal sense, like Matt but they have have their own methods.
It takes Father Lantom dying and Karen almost dying to get Matt to see reason. For Matt to finally try to see the errors of his ways. That everyone needs help sometimes, and everyone needs a support network. It’s quite a basic lesson, but Matt has never really had the opportunity to learn it. He’s been on his own for a long time, and his abandonment issues (and Stick's programming) have drilled into him this notion that the only person he can truly trust is himself. - Talking sense into Matt at this stage would be like talking to a wall. Matt is already so set on what he’s going to do, trying to get him to stop would be a fool’s errand, and maybe do even more harm. He probably would have pushed them away more, maybe too far. They understandably feel abandoned by him. Why try to be with someone who doesn’t want you? Matt is sending the “DON’T TALK TO ME” message loud and clear, and they are simply accepting that. More questionable is, how effective would Karen and Foggy be in finding Matt? Where would they start? Maybe Foggy knows about St. Agnes, but it's questionable whether Father Lantom or Sister Maggie would have said anything. Even if he did, Matt isn’t ready to accept them as equal partners. He’s still very much in his "Only I can defeat Fisk" mode, a stupid mode to be sure… but it is Matt.
In an ideal world, yes, it would have been better and more effective. Because working together is always better than working apart. But at this point it’s just not feasible. Matt is still in a very dark place, which he has to learn from. To a certain extent Matt needs to do the work, he needs to do the growing. At this point he hasn’t yet. And the word “ideal” is pretty key here. It would have been ideal to seek out Matt, but we don’t live in an ideal world. We live in a world where life isn't fair and all of the characters do stupid things, Matt in particular. Things that backfire, and end up leaving the situation worse than it started. They are deeply flawed and will make a ton of mistakes. Matt shouldn’t have lied, Karen shouldn’t tried to have step to Fisk, ect ect… Just because something is in an ideal place, doesn’t mean it’s the right time. Matt isn’t ready to work with anyone, much to his detriment. - The problem is that if Karen and Foggy contacted the police, they'd have to tell the police why they need the police to go after Matt. They can’t tell the police why they should pick up Matt and then let him go. It would be dangerous for Matt to be hauled into the FBI/police stations, because the chances are they would have charged him with something. Even if it was just for Fisk to get closer to killing him.
- This is at a time before Karen meets Matt face to face again. He's given no indication that he cares for her. He revealed himself to Foggy only to steal his wallet from him. Matt is continuing his path of actively punishing the people who love him. While the way Karen goes about trying to pursue Fisk is… not the best, it’s her choice and her plan. She'd rather do that than sit around waiting on the slim chance that Matt will save her, which she isn’t even sure he will. Karen is probably thinking along the lines of “if he really loved me he would come and see me”, which is quite reasonable. Matt isn’t exactly a reasonable person. Karen and Foggy’s primary motivation at this time isn’t "we have to save Matt from Fisk", but "we need to take down Fisk". They are trying to protect the city in their own way, using the law and the media to work against Fisk. They can’t fight, in the literal sense, like Matt but they have have their own methods.
Fisk's obviously criminal codename
- To protect himself, Fisk instructs his blackmailed FBI agents to refer to him only as "Kingpin" when speaking about him to each other. Why would he use such an obvious word for a criminal as his codename among the FBI? If clean NYPD cops at the church, such as Brett, accidentally overheard crooked FBI agents talking about orders from a "kingpin," wouldn't it immediately raise red flags? Why wouldn't he use a more innocuous codename, like "The Boss," that the FBI could use in public without raising suspicions (like Hattley had been using in a very subtle case of foreshadowing in an earlier episode)? The showrunners clearly want to get Fisk's comic nickname into the series, but it doesn't make a lot of sense when justified this way.
The absurdly long cab ride
- So, in episode 4, Matt goes to the prison to find information about Fisk's stay. But the timeline of his movements is a little weird. When he's getting into the cab outside his apartment, it's morning. When he's getting back in the cab after escaping the prison riot, and passing out in the cab from the sedatives, it's about 11:15 according to the clocks in the prison infimary. When Matt regains consciousness, just before Fisk's lackey bails out and the cab hits the river, it's nighttime already. Does that mean the driver went around the city with an unconscious Matt in the backseat for several hours?
What if Matt had been Karen's lawyer after the Bulletin attack?
- How would Nadeem's effort to question Karen following the Bulletin attack have gone if Matt, not Foggy, had been Karen's lawyer?
- If Matt had been Karen's lawyer when she was being questioned by Nadeem, it would not have gone well for anyone. Foggy clearly is barely managing to handle it well, but it would've probably been worse if Matt had been there, either as Foggy's client or as Karen's lawyer. Foggy is there because he is the more level-headed of the two. Even if we ignore the logistics of Matt being hunted by the FBI, Matt would have no doubt said something that would have made the situation worse, and Karen does not do well in jail cells. The big thing to remember about this scene is that Nadeem is essentially attacking Karen by attacking Daredevil. There's no way that Matt would have kept his cool, with both someone he cares about and his alternate identity being attacked. It would have just ended in a fistfight. It’s a testament to her character that Karen herself doesn’t punch Nadeem.
Considering that Nadeem is clearly way out of line here. Karen is clearly traumatized. He knows she is a victim. All he knows is that she has met Daredevil, that’s no reason to treat her like she's a suspect. He’s harassing her, when he should try to listen. At this point, Nadeem is willfully blind to the fact that the FBI has been infiltrated and compromised by Fisk. It’s easier just to blame an outside threat, and threaten these two people who have been recently traumatized, rather than actually listening. He’s just straight up showing them a murder. There was no way this conversation could have gone well, and had it been Matt instead of Foggy, it would have been so much worse. Unless Nadeem had been ready to listen, it would have always resulted in Karen and her lawyer walking out of the room. And if Matt had been there, he'd have probably snapped, lunged over the table and beat the shit out of Nadeem, forcing Karen and the FBI agents to intervene and pull him off. - If Matt was Karen’s lawyer in the actual context of the plot at that moment, Karen likely wouldn't even be a part of that conversation because Nadeem would be more interested in questioning Matt than in anything to do with Karen. And that just makes it basically a completely separate unique scene. But as far as Matt’s reactions to what Karen’s going through and his style of lawyering, he’d be a more active part of the conversation than Foggy is. Foggy tends to be a little more patient and wait for people to have their say before he responds; he also tends to respect Karen's agency more, so his concern for her isn't as overbearing. Matt is more aggressive in his defenses and tends to sort of talk circles around people. So he’d be cutting Nadeem off more, and be more protective of Karen (so a combination of his own protectiveness towards Karen and his natural personality). Then you might see him and Karen fall into a pattern of kind of bouncing off each other, since they tend to fall into rhythm when they have a common purpose. But overall, Nadeem would still be the one steering the conversation and Karen would be the focus, and Karen never lets people talk for her all that much. So the scene wouldn’t change too much in and of itself.
How that would affect dynamics beyond the scene itself is hard to determine because so much would have to change to get Matt in the room in the first place. But if Matt and Karen were in that room together, you’d have a nice sort of power couple moment of the combined passion of those two coming together and that’d be fun. With Matt kinda falling silent as Karen offers her defense of why she knows the Bulletin attacker wasn’t really Daredevil. Then after the scene, depending on the state of things between Matt and Karen, either a moment of tension because for a moment they were really united and now they have to go crashing back into all the problems between them. Or they’d have a sweet moment of caring for each other and offering comfort. - It would’ve been a mess to switch Matt in for Foggy. As far as Nadeem is concerned at this point, Matt is a suspect, so he would have had more questions for Matt than he would for Karen. He'd be intent on knowing why Matt has been unreachable, want to know about the accusations Fisk had made about him, and why he magically disappeared from the Bulletin when the fake Daredevil turned up. Assuming Matt could wiggle out of it, though, he would not have let Nadeem's questioning of Karen go on for so long. At the same time, would Karen appreciate Matt helping her at this point? Yes, he fought Dex for her, but their relationship is already complicated enough this early in the season without adding a power imbalance between them. (In fact, the more Matt would’ve tried to end the interview, the more Karen would’ve pushed back. After all, she cares about the truth and cares about proving herself. So maybe if Matt were representing her, the questioning would’ve actually gone on longer.) At best, Karen would maybe jump to Matt’s defense and that would only confirm to Nadeem that yeah, Matt is not just a lawyer and she knows more than she's letting on. And Matt tends to lose his cool a bit quicker than Foggy does when under pressure.
- Something like this, most likely. The one scenario that would make it possible for Matt to be Karen's lawyer would be if the knockout blow Dex gave to Foggy was much harder, enough for Foggy to be in the hospital. In which case Matt would get rid of the sweater and beanie mask once away from the Bulletin, then go to the FBI office to rep Karen. Nadeem would want to question Matt about the allegations Fisk made, but Matt would invoke his fifth amendment rights, and if that failed, make some sort of negotiation of "you let me defend Karen here, and I'll tell you everything I know." The questioning would've then resumed, with Nadeem directing his questions to Karen, but shifting to Matt as Nadeem shifts to asking how they found Jasper Evans. This would be the first Karen knows about Matt visiting the prison, as Nadeem asks Matt about his making contact with an Albanian gang and all the tapes going missing. Since Matt hasn't gone to the church to get stitched up, he'd likely end up collapsing from blood loss as he prepares to leave the room with Karen, and would have to be taken by Nadeem to the hospital. Karen would go to the hospital before the ambulance gets there and tell Foggy what happened, so that Foggy will be there for Matt when he gets released. She'd then have her scene with Ellison, but afterwards, she'd go to the church to reflect, and run into Matt; she'd tell him about losing her job, and he would offer for her to come along with him to track down Melvin.
While this is going on, Matt would be questioned in the hospital by Nadeem about all the scars on his chest and about the prison visit. Matt would stop short of admitting he's the real Daredevil, but would tell Nadeem he's never worked for Fisk, he's trying to stop Fisk, might give answers that (combined with his refusal to explain the source of his scars) lead Nadeem to think Fisk tortured Matt. He'd insist on getting released from the hospital, go to the church, have his scene with Sister Maggie, and then encounter Karen.
So Matt and Karen go to Melvin's place together and have to work together to fight off the FBI agents when they show up to arrest Matt. Meanwhile, Nadeem would be persuaded to go to the prison, talk to Michael, and be convinced of Matt's innocence, before the Jiggy scene. Foggy's plans to expose Fisk's scheme would be hampered, since he'd now find himself under investigation on account of Matt using his ID to break into the prison.
- If Matt had been Karen's lawyer when she was being questioned by Nadeem, it would not have gone well for anyone. Foggy clearly is barely managing to handle it well, but it would've probably been worse if Matt had been there, either as Foggy's client or as Karen's lawyer. Foggy is there because he is the more level-headed of the two. Even if we ignore the logistics of Matt being hunted by the FBI, Matt would have no doubt said something that would have made the situation worse, and Karen does not do well in jail cells. The big thing to remember about this scene is that Nadeem is essentially attacking Karen by attacking Daredevil. There's no way that Matt would have kept his cool, with both someone he cares about and his alternate identity being attacked. It would have just ended in a fistfight. It’s a testament to her character that Karen herself doesn’t punch Nadeem.
Matt's escape from the cab
- Occasionally, Matt ends up in a situation where he can’t possibly know where he is. One example is the cab drowning at the end of episode 4. It’s clear when he regains consciousness that Matt doesn’t know where he is, because he asks “Where?” just before the new driver reveals he's working for Fisk, and the cab then goes into the water. The next time we see him, in the final minutes of episode 5, Matt is entering his apartment from the roof. In order to get there, Matt had to figure out where he was after he escaped from the cab. How did he do that? And for that matter, where was Matt during that entire day?
Foggy and Matt at the bar
- If Foggy had chased after Matt when Matt left the bar, would he have talked sense into Matt and convinced him to see Karen, convince him that they should work together to take down Fisk? How would Matt have felt about Foggy's decision to run for DA against Blake Tower? Would Matt still go to the prison?
- It's hard to say whether Foggy would have managed to catch up to Matt. As for reasoning, well, Foggy has always been part of Matt’s better angels, but Matt is too far gone at this point. There would be no point, and Foggy knows that. At some point it’s a thing of saying nothing is better than saying something. The “one of us is going to say something we can’t take back”. Had Matt allowed Foggy to catch him, they might have said something that would have broken their friendship.
This would have been more likely with Matt and Karen in their reunion scene. It’s what makes that scene so tense. They are both on the verge of ending their relationship for real. Karen is at the end of her rope, and she means it. Had Matt been more argumentative, he might have pushed her that far. See, Karen has this ability to get Matt to shut up. We see it on the courthouse steps in 2x08, we see it in her apartment in 3x06, in the church-basement in 3x11, and in the boxing club in 3x12. He gets a holier-than-thou look on his face, but at least he’s quiet for a bit. He always lets her speak her mind because he cares what she has to say. Whatever that might be. Even though she generally wins all these arguments.
It's probably for the best that Matt didn’t have time to talk to Foggy about his “elevated profile”, partially because Matt would have definitely pulled his there-but-for-the-grace-of-God look. But also because it allows Foggy to do something really dumb. Him running for DA is Foggy protecting himself without actually needing to. Fisk hasn’t gone after him or Karen. They put themselves in harm's way. Foggy has just pushed himself into the spotlight. He needs to see the consequences of that attention being turned around on him. It shows how much Matt and Foggy need each other. They have always acted as each other's “better angels”. They made sure the other didn’t go too far of the rails. After all, Foggy probably had a hand in Matt didn't get kicked out of law school during the semester that he almost failed due to running around with Elektra.
No matter what happened, even if Foggy did try to reason with Matt, Matt would still go to the prison. At this point, Matt doesn’t care about his friends, at least not in a personal way. He cares, but not to the point where he would change his behavior. That takes longer. I don’t think either/ both of them could have stopped him if they tried.
- It's hard to say whether Foggy would have managed to catch up to Matt. As for reasoning, well, Foggy has always been part of Matt’s better angels, but Matt is too far gone at this point. There would be no point, and Foggy knows that. At some point it’s a thing of saying nothing is better than saying something. The “one of us is going to say something we can’t take back”. Had Matt allowed Foggy to catch him, they might have said something that would have broken their friendship.
Was Ellison in the right to fire Karen?
- This is when Karen visits him at the hospital in episode 7 after the Bulletin attack. Karen is clearly traumatized, granted so is Ellison, but he just fires her. Over something that she isn’t ready to share, which ain’t great. On a related note, would Karen have fared better in that scene if Matt were present?
- Members of his staff are dead and Karen is hiding information. She screwed herself up by not explaining that since Daredevil saved her life twice, she could tell by his voice or height that it wasn't him. She's gonna need a better lie then "I know where the real Daredevil is." You think that flimsy ass excuse is gonna fly when she's confronted by the family members of her dead coworkers?
- Also, Ellison did see "Daredevil" stab him with a pencil (a fucking pencil) and shoot Jasper Evans with his own eyes. It's not that he doesn't trust Karen, it's that if she's going to willingly keep this from him, he can't trust her anymore. Would you want her around if she refused to explain what she knows about who killed your friends? By not telling anyone, Karen is letting everyone chase the wrong person. She wasn't even going to tell him, having just let it slip out without having a good cover story. Remember, these characters live in a world where law enforcement (even if not perfect) isn't a 24/7 revolving door of corruption because comic book tropes.
- As for the Matt thing...if Matt were there, Matt probably would've tried to step up and confess, but Karen would interrupt him to protect his secret.
- Karen wasn’t fired because Daredevil’s identity was vital to the investigation, she was fired because she was actively withholding information that could have at least helped the police. Also, tensions were running high in that scene, and Ellison was upset that Karen didn’t trust him and was prioritizing Daredevil’s privacy over helping find justice for their dead co-workers. But more to the point, the scene was probably meant to be a direct callback to◊ a◊ scene◊ from◊ the Bendis run of the comics, in which Matt gets outed as Daredevil in the press, and Ben Urich and Peter Parker have to subsequently step in to keep J. Jonah Jameson from pursuing the story:Ben: “The story’s a hoax. It’s not true. […] I know who Daredevil is– and he’s not this Murdock guy.”
Jameson: “Did you just say you know who Daredevil is? […] You know who he is when he isn’t dressed up in his little costume?”
Ben: “Yes.”
Jameson: “I don’t believe you!”
Peter: “It’s true. […] I– uh– I also know who Daredevil is, and it’s not this Murdock person. I don’t know why they put that in the paper like that but I figured– you know– that you were going to follow up on it. So I came down here to tell you it’s not true.”
Jameson: “You know who Daredevil is, too?”
Peter: “Yeah–”
Jameson: “And you know who Daredevil is?”
Ben: “Yes, I do.”
Jameson: “THEN WHO IS HE?!“
Ben: “I’m not telling, Jonah. Sorry.”
Peter: “Sorry.”
Jameson: “‘Sorry’? ‘Sorry’? You’re going to tell me right now or you’re both fired!”- Ben refuses to tell Jameson anything, and while he doesn’t actually get fired for it (Jameson fires everyone all the time, and only very rarely does he actually mean it), because he’s too valuable to the Bugle, it’s a really powerful example of how Ben is willing to risk his professional reputation and outright lie to protect Matt. It’s not the first or last time he does this– moments like these are a big part of his and Matt’s relationship– but it’s still a wonderful scene.
Now in the show, Ellison and the Bulletin have always been an obvious (if watered-down) Jameson stand-in (when Daredevil Season 1 was being written, Marvel didn’t have the film rights to Spider-Man, so presumably they couldn’t use the actual Jameson and Daily Buglenote ), and Karen took on what was obviously Ben's role in the time following his death. So it makes sense for Karen to be put in this same situation, because it is such a classic secret identity-related challenge. It's not surprising that she made the same choice that 616 Ben did, and protected Matt, but it was still an important test of her role as the resident Journalist Who Knows.
- Ben refuses to tell Jameson anything, and while he doesn’t actually get fired for it (Jameson fires everyone all the time, and only very rarely does he actually mean it), because he’s too valuable to the Bugle, it’s a really powerful example of how Ben is willing to risk his professional reputation and outright lie to protect Matt. It’s not the first or last time he does this– moments like these are a big part of his and Matt’s relationship– but it’s still a wonderful scene.
- Ellison's argument for firing Karen is that she is withholding information that would help the police locate the attacker. Of course, a lawyer could argue that Ellison doesn't know that Karen's withholding information, just that she didn't give him what he asked for. At least one fanfic posits what would've happened if one of Karen's lawyer friends had confronted Ellison about this, in this case Foggy:"What do you want, Nelson?"
"I want you to give her back her job," Foggy said bluntly.
Cracking his eyes open, Ellison gave Foggy a weary look. "She's withholding information that would help the police track down the man who shot up our home."
"First off, you don't technically know that she's withholding information," Foggy pointed out. "You just asked her to tell you something and she didn't give you what you wanted. But even if she were, she's only withholding information to protect the one person who can actually track down the guy who shot up your home." He softened his voice. "Look, maybe we can talk in private." He didn't like the thought of Pink Polo Guy knowing anything about what Foggy was about to share.
"Here’s fine," Ellison said flatly. "And I'm not giving Miss Page her job back just because her lawyer friend showed up. That would incentivize everyone to befriend lawyers, which is the last thing I need." - One could argue that Karen was already on thin ice with Ellison after the Lewis Wilson incident, and it coming to his attention that Karen had been aiding and abetting Frank Castle. Now she's just admitted she covers for Daredevil as well.
Why take Jasper Evans to the Bulletin?
- I know Karen wants Jasper Evans' story on record, but…why take Evans to the Bulletin, a building with no real security? Matt and Karen had to have known that Jasper Evans' guards would alert Fisk to what happened as soon as they regained consciousness. I get that they don't trust the FBI because the FBI are under Fisk's control, but...there are several other law enforcement agencies in the city. If they want Jasper's statements on record, wouldn't it make just as much sense for Matt and Karen to turn Evans over to the NYPD, who have several cops that they know can be trusted (like they turned Carl Hoffman over to Brett)? I also know that Karen wanted Ellison to see/hear Evans with his own two ears, but… Ellison's got two legs and doesn't necessarily need to be at the Bulletin offices to do his job. (Not to mention, if they wanted a neutral territory for Matt’s surrender, the police station would make more sense than the Bulletin offices, since the Bulletin is Karen’s turf).
- Fisk has shown how well/easily he can twist government officials to his will. While we don't know if any NYPD officers in his pocket managed to slip through the cracks when Hoffman talked, it wouldn't be out of character for Fisk to have that sort of contingency. We know Brett is on the good side, but would Evans have survived a night in the Tombs? If he gets turned in to the NYPD, Fisk could have done the same thing to Jasper that he had done with Rance, and tried to do to Karen (i.e., bribe/threaten a guard into hanging Jasper in his cell). It would have also put Brett in a lot of danger. To a degree, it’s also a plot convenience. Jasper’s death and with that the whole Bulletin attack is the set up for the second half of the season. For the latter half of the season to start/work, you need Jasper to be killed. You need Karen to be put in danger. You need Ellison to fire Karen, you need Dex and Matt to fight and on and on and on. Like a lot of deaths in movies like this, it’s impetus for our heroes to really start moving. It confirms Matt’s fear of the inadequacies of the legal system. It pushes Karen to go and see Fisk.
Karen paying for Matt's rent
- Did Matt know, before visiting Karen, that she was the one paying his rent? When he went by the apartment to change before going off to the prison, he 'saw' the bills on the table, but no one told him who was taking care of the place. Surely Matt could smell Karen's perfume all over his apartment when he returned. Foggy had only been there once since his 'death'. Also, did he ever thank her for that?
- He knows she did, and come to think of it, she would have had no money to live on. Karen probably put herself in debt to keep his apartment. If there was some acknowledgment, or even a scene of Matt saying "Thank you" to Karen, it probably happened offscreen as another time-saving measure. You can’t have too many plotlines going on, even if they are small. They are going to confuse an audience, especially if they are new or don’t care as much as more fervent fans do. Yes, people get upset when there is not enough in-depth content, but writers can’t only think about the fans. They have to attract new audience members and they can’t do that if the whole thing is based on in-depth knowledge.
What if Matt was there was Karen talked to Ellison?
- So Ellison demands that Karen give up Daredevil's real identity, and fires her when she doesn't. Would she have fared better if Matt were there? Would Matt have outed himself if it meant Karen kept her job?
- It wouldn't be good for Matt to be there, because what Matt is trying to do at this point is wrap Karen in bubble wrap to protect her from this world. It comes from a good place, but in the end it’s harmful, because that’s not how life works. While Karen’s sacrifice sucks, it’s one she chooses to make. Matt being there, even if he didn’t reveal himself, would rob her of any agency in the matter. There's also the fact that swearing a stranger like Ellison to secrecy is a bit dicey, and a lot different from if Matt had to out himself to someone he's already somewhat acquainted with, like Marci, Brett or even Melvin. There's an old saying that “three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead”. The more people who know a secret, the more likely it is for the secret to be out for good. Plus it’s a personal thing for Matt. Him choosing to tell anyone is a big deal. It would cheapen it if he just whipped it out. The only times he's ever willingly unmasked himself were for Karen and for Nadeem. Everyone else was either out of necessity or by accident. At most, if Matt were in the hospital there, he'd have probably encouraged Karen to team up with him to track down the imposter.
- Given Matt's self-sacrificing nature, he almost certainly would have outed himself to protect Karen. However, it's a delicate situation, as Ellison, fully believing that Daredevil, the REAL Daredevil, shot up his office, would have to be talked out of reporting Matt to the police, which could have been an interesting thing in and of itself. Like, oh crap, how's Matt getting out of that one, especially since at that point, Nadeem didn't even really know how far the whole Dex rabbit hole actually went. And Karen would probably be very upset with Matt, and probably herself, if Matt had to out himself, or at least felt he had a need to do so.
- Matt would not even have time to give up the secret before Ellison read it on his face, cause he read Karen quite quickly. But whether or not he would choose to give up his secret for Karen's sake, is another thing. Perhaps at most, Matt would have been able to get away with just agreeing with Karen. Karen lets slip that she "just knows" that the attacker wasn't the real Daredevil. With Matt there, he would have been able to back up her claim through similar testimony instead of just floundering when she slips up too much info.
- It's unlikely that Matt would have outed himself. Especially not at that point in the season. Ellison is also a stranger to Matt, even though they both have a mutual acquaintance in the form of Karen, which means Matt probably doesn't trust him. And as we've already seen with Fisk, there are consequences enough when Matt's secret identity falls into the wrong hands. If Matt reveals his identity to the wrong person, he could go to jail, he could be killed, he could be publicly revealed, he could be disbarred, all of which would make Karen and Foggy targets for Fisk. And at that point, with the attack so fresh in everyone’s minds, Ellison was so emotionally volatile that there’s no knowing what he might have done with that information. As much as Matt would hate for Karen to lose her job for him, the consequences of his identity being revealed would probably be worse (which is also why Karen made the choice she did).
- On top of that, letting Ellison know Daredevil's identity wouldn’t even necessarily guarantee a good outcome for Karen either. There's a strong possibility Ellison would have fired her anyway. Ellison was really not in a good mood right then, having just been stabbed by "Daredevil" with a pencil and having several of his employees brutally murdered, so it's hard to blame him for those decisions he might have made, but the end-all is that he couldn't be trusted right then.
Harder to say is whether Karen would have let that decision fall on Matt. If he was there, she would have done whatever was necessary to make it clear to Matt that she was not going to let him do that for her, and that she didn’t expect him to. Because even with all the conflict between the two of them at that point, Karen would be very clear in her decision that Matt setting himself up to be accused of mass murder was not worth her keeping her job. It could have led to a very interesting conversation afterwards. Sort of a short terse conversation where Matt tries to go to apologize for not outing himself, and tries to explain himself, and Karen cuts him off and tells him that of course she’s not going to tell his secret. And its got kind of these tired, frustrated words, overlaying but not quite masking the fact that these two would do anything for each other, they’re just not quite in a place yet where they can be around each other. Because they care about each other so much that when Matt is falling apart its very painful for Karen.
- On top of that, letting Ellison know Daredevil's identity wouldn’t even necessarily guarantee a good outcome for Karen either. There's a strong possibility Ellison would have fired her anyway. Ellison was really not in a good mood right then, having just been stabbed by "Daredevil" with a pencil and having several of his employees brutally murdered, so it's hard to blame him for those decisions he might have made, but the end-all is that he couldn't be trusted right then.
Karen's firing
- Why do Matt and Foggy seem to show no regard towards Karen losing her job? The reporter gig at the Bulletin was Karen's dream job and she sacrificed it for Matt's sake, yet Foggy only pays it mind for, like, ten seconds in episode 8. And shouldn't Matt have known that this happened, considering she told him about the press conference and knew she'd be open for a PI position at Nelson Murdock & Page?
- Let's face it, Ellison was in the wrong to fire Karen here. She’s clearly traumatized, granted so is he, but he just fires her. Over something that she isn’t ready to share, which ain’t great. As for Matt and Foggy not bringing this up, well, there's an in-universe and out-of-universe explanation for this: the in-universe explanation is that they both have a bit of a tendency to be a bit self-involved and not see Karen’s pain. She’s good at hiding her pain, but they could have looked a little harder. The out-of-universe reason probably has more to do with the writers. They wanted an extremely lean story, and to have their fairytale ending, they needed Karen to get rid of her job. While details like the boys' reaction to Karen’s firing further character, it wouldn’t really further the plot.
Why didn't Matt tell Karen that Fisk had figured out his identity?
- When Matt finally reached out to Karen for help in 3x06, why didn't he tell her that Fisk had figured out his secret identity? Wouldn't that instantly make her more receptive to helping him track down Jasper Evans? She'd now know why the FBI were digging into Matt.
- All season he’s still trying to protect her, even though she is in the thick of it already. Him keeping secrets from her isn’t really new. That’s why him telling her that he was planning to kill Fisk is such a big deal. He is revealing what might be his second darkest thought to her. Matt wants to protect Karen from the world, not realizing that she is already in that world. He thinks the less he shares the safer she’ll be. Obviously that thinking is highly flawed. Not only is Karen already there. She needs this information.
Him not telling her the "Fisk has sent the FBI after me because he's found out that I'm Daredevil" bit, it’s probably a sort of test. To see whether without any other incentive Karen would help him. If he had told her then, he could say she helped him because his life was in danger, rather than "she just wanted to help me, because I am Matt Murdock". Karen has such a high appreciation for the preservation of life, that had he told her, she might have just done it to protect him as a person, rather than just to help him. It’s devious to be sure, but understandable. Their relationship has drastically changed from the end of season 2 up until this point. They have not only been geographically/physically apart, but emotionally as well. If we cast our minds back to the diner scene in The Defenders, we can see just because they are in the same place geographically does not mean they are in the same place emotionally. That diner scene in The Defenders is so awkward because they have been so distant with each other. They aren’t really in the same place.
When they meet up again in D D3x 06 they are technically still in that distant space, and Matt is testing if they can find their way back to being emotionally close. Karen saying yes to Matt is essentially allowing him back into her life. She does that not because his life is in danger, but because in large part she missed him a lot more than she lets on.
- All season he’s still trying to protect her, even though she is in the thick of it already. Him keeping secrets from her isn’t really new. That’s why him telling her that he was planning to kill Fisk is such a big deal. He is revealing what might be his second darkest thought to her. Matt wants to protect Karen from the world, not realizing that she is already in that world. He thinks the less he shares the safer she’ll be. Obviously that thinking is highly flawed. Not only is Karen already there. She needs this information.
Surrender at the church
- So Matt's gambit to get Karen out of the church is to have Foggy show up and negotiate that Karen will surrender to Brett Mahoney. Why doesn't Matt surrender alongside her, and instead breaks out a window to leave the church?
- It's to protect his secret identity. Matt hasn't had a chance to change out of his Daredevil clothes other than the red T-shirt Sister Maggie has supplied for him (and simply wearing that as an undershirt under the black shirt from his costume). If Matt surrendered alongside Karen, that would make too many complications. For one, he would have to answer a lot of odd questions from Brett once they were safely away from the church (which would also probably include having to admit the truth to him). But more importantly, Dex is still at the church, having changed into his FBI windbreaker and come back with Nadeem to finish his hit on Karen. This means, if Matt surrendered alongside Karen, Dex would recognize Matt as the man he fought just an hour earlier, and there's no way he wouldn't have reported this to Fisk.
Could Father Lantom's death have been prevented?
- While Father Lantom's death was clearly of his own choice (taking the baton Dex had intended for Karen), could the circumstances that led up to this have allowed his death to be prevented?
- Almost certainly, yes. A lot of death would've been prevented if Matt had stayed at the church instead of fleeing as soon as he’d learned the truth about Maggie. If he'd still been at the church when Karen showed up, he would've known much earlier on that Fisk was hunting her and why he was hunting her (meaning her confession about Wesley's death would still happen, just a few hours earlier), and he would’ve stayed to protect her. So instead of showing up at the church after Dex has begun his attack, he'd already be inside and would've immediately sensed when Dex was dropped off by Nadeem. At this point, he would've likely interrupted Father Lantom's sermon and told everyone to start heading for the exits (causing confusion for Dex). Alternately, he would've had the foresight to tell Father Lantom to cancel Mass completely and redirect the congregation to another church, to eliminate the possibility of bystanders getting hurt.
Father Lantom's death, intentional or unintentional?
- Everything says that Karen is Dex's target. She was his mission and he had her right where he wanted her, but he straight up changes his mind and instead kills Father Lantom first? I'm pretty sure Fisk told Dex "I want you to kill Karen Page," and not "I want you to kill Karen Page and anyone who is helping her."
- The moment of Father Lantom's death is about subverting expectations. The way the scene is done is in a way meant to suspend the moment since the church fight is adapted from "Guardian Devil". Comic fans watching expect that Karen will die here with more certainty than an exclusive show-viewer would because that's what happened in the comics. And they pull out all the stops to the point that you would have to be a very, VERY casual viewer to not expect Karen to die here: the episode is named after her, and it starts with a 30 minute extended flashback about her backstory, and Karen isn't so much as mentioned at all in the episode descriptions of the last three episodes. All of this is after an episode that ended with Matt in Fisk's penthouse and him learning that Fisk has ordered a hit on Karen.
So during the fight, the camerawork is staged to make the viewer feel the tension and suspense, up until they pulled the camera back from the extreme-closeup on Karen's face and show the baton sticking out of Father Lantom's chest. It’s all just to trick you and keep you on the edge of your seat till the end. And look at the expression on Dex's face when he's stripping out of his suit after returning to the getaway car, having failed his mission. He's also clearly fuming when Nadeem directs for Karen to be handed over to Brett Mahoney instead of taken into FBI custody. He wants to kill her that badly; like, he wants her in the grave at that very moment, which makes a lot of sense, because to Dex, his North Star is everything to him and he will do anything and everything for and to keep his North Star, which at this point in time is Fisk.note Sure he might have some fun with it, but it's pretty clear that Dex was going for Karen and Father Lantom blocked his throw.
- The moment of Father Lantom's death is about subverting expectations. The way the scene is done is in a way meant to suspend the moment since the church fight is adapted from "Guardian Devil". Comic fans watching expect that Karen will die here with more certainty than an exclusive show-viewer would because that's what happened in the comics. And they pull out all the stops to the point that you would have to be a very, VERY casual viewer to not expect Karen to die here: the episode is named after her, and it starts with a 30 minute extended flashback about her backstory, and Karen isn't so much as mentioned at all in the episode descriptions of the last three episodes. All of this is after an episode that ended with Matt in Fisk's penthouse and him learning that Fisk has ordered a hit on Karen.
What if Matt hadn't stayed behind in Midland Circle?
- What would've happened differently in the season if Matt hadn't remained behind Midland Circle and he'd left Elektra behind to die?
- So on the one hand, Matt’s emotional state in season 3 has a lot to do with him feeling like everything is bad and he can’t protect anyone and caring for people just causes him pain, on top of losing Elektra for a second time (and likely permanently this time around). That fear of losing people is a large driving factor of how broken he is over the course of the season. So in the one sense, all of that would still be present, but probably with an additional guilt of feeling like he didn’t do enough to try to save Elektra. It's likely that he still would have pushed Foggy and Karen away but he would have done so without pretending to be dead. Because he would have never had his hearing (et al) damaged he would probably be out fighting crime the entire time which might push him closer to killing because he can get trapped in a pattern of escalating violence. This would probably leave Fisk with a slightly smaller window for Dex to come in and pose as Daredevil, but probably wouldn’t otherwise affect the plot very much, mainly character stuff.
The other biggest factor is that Matt wouldn’t have the physical struggles which would probably put him in at least a slightly better mindset. But he also wouldn’t be hanging out with Father Lantom and Maggie if he wasn’t faking his death, so he would be completely alone and not have those angels on his shoulder. So it probably evens out to the same level of self-destructiveness. But Matt is less hindered in the physical fights and, if he’s facing Dex in his body armor suit, is less likely to be hurt and more likely to beat him in the church fight (he'd still lose his fight with Dex at the Bulletin, since he didn't have his costume on hand).
A Matt who isn’t faking his death wouldn't have quit lawyering in the interim between The Defenders and season 3. He'd also have his cell phone on him, which would make him more accessible throughout the season and clear up a few difficulties when it comes to people trying to contact him (half the time, people have to go where they think Matt will be, and just hope he turns up at some point). Like, he'd still have his old burner phone on him so that Karen could call him after her visit to Fisk, instead of showing up at the church to have a heart to heart with Maggie. People probably would call Matt a lot and he’d be generally more in the know throughout the season.
- So on the one hand, Matt’s emotional state in season 3 has a lot to do with him feeling like everything is bad and he can’t protect anyone and caring for people just causes him pain, on top of losing Elektra for a second time (and likely permanently this time around). That fear of losing people is a large driving factor of how broken he is over the course of the season. So in the one sense, all of that would still be present, but probably with an additional guilt of feeling like he didn’t do enough to try to save Elektra. It's likely that he still would have pushed Foggy and Karen away but he would have done so without pretending to be dead. Because he would have never had his hearing (et al) damaged he would probably be out fighting crime the entire time which might push him closer to killing because he can get trapped in a pattern of escalating violence. This would probably leave Fisk with a slightly smaller window for Dex to come in and pose as Daredevil, but probably wouldn’t otherwise affect the plot very much, mainly character stuff.
Was it necessary to break into Dex's apartment?
- Matt and Nadeem already know Dex was under investigation for potentially killing two Albanians that had surrendered in the motorcade attack, and they have video evidence of him turning off cameras and doing his job wrong. If they also look into his background of mental health issues, wouldn't they have enough to go on to get a search warrant from a judge without either of them going to his apartment?
- With Dex, it's because to some degree, Nadeem is his pal. Nadeem has deep respect and gratitude for the work Dex had done and hopes for Dex to get his job back (if they weren't pals, he wouldn't have warned Dex he was under investigation by Internal Affairs). If they had indeed found nothing, that lawyer he hired for Dex would have been for real. If Dex was indeed innocent, a search warrant might have further tarnished his record and reputation, and Nadeem wouldn't want that. Hard to say why Matt would go for that though, but most likely he just really needed Nadeem's cooperation. In addition, the background check and OPR investigation aren't proof that he was the one who dressed as Daredevil and killed those people at the Bulletin. It would be circumstantial at best, and doesn't connect him to the crime. They need him in the actual suit, and that doesn't happen until the end (this is in part why Matt turns Dex against Fisk; it's so that the police can catch both of them together).
- A more common sense move on Matt's part would've been to go with Karen to break into Dex's place (since she's broken into Frank's house in season 2), and have Nadeem keep Dex occupied. Doing it this way would've meant Nadeem would be able to warn Matt when Dex was coming back.
Karen's past, and Fisk discrediting her
- Before Ben died, Karen said to him that she couldn't make a blog reporting her findings on Fisk, because people would find out about her past, like Ben did. Her past is that she was an addict and alcoholic who killed her brother while driving under the influence of alcohol. How would an accidental death, which she was never charged for, impact a blog Karen puts out about crime in Hell's Kitchen?
- Her concerns were that Fisk would use the nature of Kevin's death to discredit her. The truth behind the crash was covered up at the request of Karen's father, but it wouldn't be out of the question for Fisk to find out, either through threatening her father or just tracking down the police in Fagan Corners. Karen could say whatever she wants, but Fisk could make her look like an unreliable source and "just another blogger on the internet" by exposing the nature of the accident. It basically flips everything and does what Karen is trying to do to Fisk, to her.
- Kevin's death was an accident, but on the other side of that, Karen was still driving while drunk and high, and she was dating a known drug dealer, and dealing drugs herself. So she may have been referring to all of that rather than just the death of her brother. Fisk and his lawyers would publicize those aspects of her life to discredit what she publishes and discourage criminal investigation based on her word. It isn't unreasonable to presume that Karen having shot someone and sold drugs would be enough to paint a picture for the public of her being an unreliable journalist.
The case against the Albanians
- With it now being public knowledge that Fisk was using the Albanians to manipulate the FBI, and the deal was very tainted, what could possibly happen to all of the Albanian gang members that Fisk had flipped on?
- All Fisk said was where their hideouts were. The evidence found isn't tainted because a rival gangster snitched on them for an advantage. That kind of comes with the territory (The Wire had many instances of criminals who snitched to get ahead in the "game"). However, their lawyers might have grounds to discredit any information Fisk might have given up on them.
Sensing or not sensing the suit
- Matt could smell the imposter suit when he and Nadeem were in Dex's apartment. Yet when he was in Elektra's penthouse in Season 2, he couldn't sense it until she opened the bag.
- When Matt and Nadeem break into Dex's apartment, he is actively searching for the suit. At Elektra's penthouse, he was not, so it makes sense that that would be the one time he would notice it. And at Elektra's place, he was very distracted by Elektra. On top of that, the suit has a distinctive smell all on its own, which Matt detects in Dex's apartment. It's a smell Matt would know very well from all his time wearing his own suit, and it is clearly strong, since he picks it up in Dex’s safe when it isn’t even there.
On top of that, Matt's own suit would have reeked. As in, it would have still smelled strongly of himself– which would be very striking to him– plus, of course, traces of blood, that trademark Manhattan funk, etc. and the suit’s own smell, which we just established is quite strong. Matt would be extra certain to pick up on things that smelled like himself in places where they shouldn't be, since that’s such an unusual and significant scent, so logistically, he should have noticed the suit in Season 2 as well (and when Foggy brought his suit to the precinct in The Defenders). But as always, Matt's sensory details are up to interpretation and vary wildly, and you could argue distraction in those cases.
- When Matt and Nadeem break into Dex's apartment, he is actively searching for the suit. At Elektra's penthouse, he was not, so it makes sense that that would be the one time he would notice it. And at Elektra's place, he was very distracted by Elektra. On top of that, the suit has a distinctive smell all on its own, which Matt detects in Dex's apartment. It's a smell Matt would know very well from all his time wearing his own suit, and it is clearly strong, since he picks it up in Dex’s safe when it isn’t even there.
Matt's fighting prowess against Dex
- How can Matt fight Elektra and win against Stick, but lose against some guy who can throw things? He has enhanced senses but can’t dodge half of the crap Dex lobs at him. Warrior who knows several martial art styles with enhanced senses loses to a guy who can throw stuff. Logically, he should able to sense Dex's weapons much further out.
- Two reasons: 1) Matt's physical state is weakened and he hasn't gotten a chance to fully recover 100% from his Midland Circle injuries and even older wounds, so he's basically never 100% the entire season. 2) The devil suit is made to be a big dealbreaker. Dex having it and Matt not, effectively increases the punishment Dex can take and dish out by a huge amount. Just look at the season 1 finale fight, where Fisk has the upper-hand and is whaling on Matt's face with his own baton. Matt would've died if not for the helmet/devil suit. The suit itself has huge protection on the head and a lot on the body that goes beyond defending blunt force and into protection against weaponry, while the knuckles are padded to add power to punches.
- Taking this into account, look at Matt's first faceoff with Dex, at the Bulletin. When they're fighting in close-quarters, Matt has the upper hand, as Stick taught him in many more forms of hand-to-hand combat than whatever Dex was taught in the Army; but when they're at a distance, Dex has the upper hand because he has batons that work better as long distance projectilesnote . If Matt had been in better shape, Dex likely would have lost this fight much quicker. Fact is, the circumstance goes in Dex's favor during these fights more than they don't. The Bulletin fight probably wouldn't have spread out to get distance if they were fighting on even ground (no suit for Dex or a devil suit for Matt, which would protect much more against Dex's projectiles as well as provide Matt with batons) and Matt would have defeated Dex if that fight played out the same way from the start.
- When Matt is fighting Dex at the church, Matt basically has Dex dead to rights early on, but again circumstance works in Dex's favor. Father Lantom's dying words distract Matt, and Dex is able to fight back. Worth noting though is that even here when the fight is close-range, Matt is handling Dex, literally beating his ass into and out of a confessional booth. The protection of the devil suit is what keeps Dex from staying down a time or two here. Even after Dex gets back up, the protection of the helmet keeps him from getting knocked out when Matt smashes his face into a pillar (hard enough to crack the stone), and Dex is on the backfoot when he has to retreat to throw candles and stuff to keep from taking an ass-kicking. By the end of the fight when Karen lures Dex up to the second floor, Matt is winded because he's just flat out taking more damage due to not having the protection Dex does.
- By the final episode, we see what a difference just having something to deflect Dex's projectiles are. Matt takes those pieces of fallen chandelier, and Dex can't hit him with anything thrown. As we've seen prior to this, Matt smacks things thrown at him away pretty regularly with his billy clubs or anything that can act like them. Matt does go through a window via Dex but this is kind of just something you expect to happen back and forth in the chaos of the fight.
- While at times the showrunners are somewhat obsessed with Matt taking a beating, at the same time, when you examine a lot of the way his fights play out, most of them generally play out similar to his bouts with Dex. Both of his one on one fights with Fisk in season 1 are similar in the fact that there's a lot of circumstances that worked in Fisk's favor the first time around. The first time Matt fought Fisk, he was badly wounded and winded from his fight with Nobu. But Matt outclasses Fisk in a lot of ways that only become more apparent in the rematch, where Matt is fighting Fisk on more even ground (since he now has a protective devil suit made from the same material that lines Fisk's suits).
- Super senses mean nothing when Dex is throwing objects too fast for Matt to react. Especially when Dex does last second ricochets. A martial artist against someone skilled at throwing knives is at a disadvantage, even if Dex wasn't someone with military and FBI training.
- Two reasons: 1) Matt's physical state is weakened and he hasn't gotten a chance to fully recover 100% from his Midland Circle injuries and even older wounds, so he's basically never 100% the entire season. 2) The devil suit is made to be a big dealbreaker. Dex having it and Matt not, effectively increases the punishment Dex can take and dish out by a huge amount. Just look at the season 1 finale fight, where Fisk has the upper-hand and is whaling on Matt's face with his own baton. Matt would've died if not for the helmet/devil suit. The suit itself has huge protection on the head and a lot on the body that goes beyond defending blunt force and into protection against weaponry, while the knuckles are padded to add power to punches.
What if Matt discovered the truth about his mother when he was a teenager?
- Think about when the flashbacks were shown in season 3. That must have been Matt around 13-14 years old, after training with Stick. Say Maggie had did that same prayer around nighttime, and ol' Matty happens to hear it.
- Matt's motives for becoming Daredevil would undoubtedly remain the same. Staying and doing well in school (and eventually becoming a lawyer) came from his father and his motive to become Daredevil came from hearing the city suffer every night. Although his training might have been different, depending on if Matt felt the need for Stick in his life despite having his mother. Matt needed Stick to help control his senses, but in addition to him finding a mentor, Matt was also searching for a family because he felt alone. His loneliness is factor that lead to his relationship with Stick becoming what it ultimately became, but if he knew Maggie was his mother he might have felt less alone in the world. So as a result, Matt's abandonment issues would not have been as bad. He'd still go to law school, meet Foggy, date Elektra, she'd still try to get him to kill Roscoe Sweeney, and whatnot. Season 1 would stay the same as far as the gang defeating Fisk. Though perhaps Maggie would be pushing Matt to reveal the truth to Foggy and Karen about his abilities, resulting in Foggy learning the truth well before Matt ever begins pursuing Fisk, and Karen learning around the time of "Nelson v. Murdock". Season 2 would probably be different since perhaps his mother's influence would keep Matt from pushing Karen and Foggy away as much.
- Sister Maggie would have been a stabilizing presence for Matt. One of his biggest struggles in season 2 is that he isn’t the only one alienating himself. True, he's the most noticeable since he's the main character and all, but Foggy and Karen are withdrawing from him in large part due to Daredevil. This actually begs the question of whether Matt would have stayed behind with Elektra at Midland Circle if he had friends waiting for him at the precinct who were more supportive or at the very least accepted that he was Daredevil. Maggie is the sort of person who stands by him, encourages him to do right, but also admits when she is out of her depth. Having her in season 2 would have kept Matt grounded and on-guard with Elektra and Stick. It also would have given Matt a touchstone for his faith, which was sorely lacking in season 2.
- It's worth noting that Maggie and Stick likely never met. Stick was introduced to Matt by another of the sisters, and Maggie establishes early in season 3 that Matt had distanced himself from her during this time, refusing to ask her for help when he needed. There’s a lot of self-flagellation in Matt’s family; Maggie clearly kept her distance too, and it would be easy to justify that Matt is better off without her, especially with a new mentor. It would take a particular inattentive person not to notice that Matt is getting bruised and beaten during his time with Stick, and it's also entirely possible that Stick was really careful about keeping things hidden. Lesson number one would have to do with keeping their activities quiet, and as bad as Matt is at keeping secrets, he’s very good at putting other people at a distance.
Nadeem, and the truth about Matt's identity
- Was there ever a moment of realization for Ray Nadeem over the total lie Fisk said about Matt being his "fixer"? This led to a series of exchanges between Nadeem, Foggy and Karen about how Matt leads a "double life"; Nadeem is referring to Matt being Fisk's fixer, Foggy and Karen think he's referring to Daredevil. Ultimately the plot point is ultimately irrelevant, but the moment Fisk says Matt's name as his fixer, it's treated as a big moment. Did the truth of this misunderstanding ever become clear to the characters, or did it just not matter and ultimately only served to get Nadeem looking into Matt?
- Karen and Foggy made Nadeem look stupid when he went looking for Matt. Also Nadeem went up against Dex in the suit at the Bulletin, saw his face, how he moved, how he fought. So when Matt visited Nadeem in his basement, they fought, and Matt bested him instantly without actually hurting him, did he realize Matt was the real Daredevil. Of course, he didn't know that Daredevil was Matt until Matt unmasked himself upon saving the Nadeems from Fisk's assassins as a sign of trust.
The secrecy of Matt's identity
- After the prison riot, how is anybody not supposed to know that Matt isn't really blind? The amount of cameras in a prison like that, covering the entrances and exits and everywhere else. Also, why would the guards just let him walk out the front door? How do they know he isn't an inmate who stole someone's clothes (y'know, like how the "guard" escorting him is an inmate who stripped another guard of their uniform and weapons)?
- We have to speculate a bit as an audience. The facts are that Matt (believed to be Foggy because he's using Foggy's stolen Bar card) was seen entering the prison roughly a half hour earlier. He was seen by many guards as he entered. In the heat of the riot, sure it could be assumed someone stole his clothes. But his face was seen by guards coming in initially. In that situation, it's much better to get the presumed civilian out and avoid a civilian death, then deal with finding any potential escapees. The other facts are that Matt didn't check in as Matt Murdock, he checked in as Foggy Nelson. No one besides the people on Fisk's payroll would know or assume that was Matt. All evidence that would prove Matt was there in the prison would also implicate Fisk, and expose his prison takeover/deceit with Jasper Evans. Now here is where we are forced to speculate because it makes no sense, and that's with the drowning: it's unclear how it was pulled, e.g. clearly Fisk's men killed the cab driver who took Matt to the prison and replaced him with one of their own, but there's also some debate as to whether or not they swapped cabs along the way, since clearly several hours pass between Matt getting into the cab and passing out and when he wakes up right before the cab hits the water (it's day when he leaves the prison, and already night when the drowning happens). Because that is a messy way to deal with him. The logical thing to do would've been to just shoot him, not drown him and hope he doesn't escape.
- There's a reason why Fisk's men didn't shoot Matt. Matt dying at the prison would raise too many questions, and the police would immediately narrow in on Fisk. If he dies because his cabbie went off the road on a wild joyride, that's just bad luck and harder for the police to connect back to Fisk. That was Fisk's reasoning for going this way when this scene happened in the comics, after Matt tried to confront Fisk in his office gym and got his ass handed to him: Fisk had his men make it look like Matt got drunk, beat a cabbie to death, stole the cab, and crashed it into the East River, as a product of his life falling apart through a combination of his own mistakes (Heather Glenn's suicide, his firm breaking up, and Glorianna O'Breen dumping him) and Fisk's manipulations (Fisk tried to have him sent to prison, and when Foggy managed to put on a defense that led to Matt merely being disbarred, Fisk settled for blowing up his brownstone).
- We have to speculate a bit as an audience. The facts are that Matt (believed to be Foggy because he's using Foggy's stolen Bar card) was seen entering the prison roughly a half hour earlier. He was seen by many guards as he entered. In the heat of the riot, sure it could be assumed someone stole his clothes. But his face was seen by guards coming in initially. In that situation, it's much better to get the presumed civilian out and avoid a civilian death, then deal with finding any potential escapees. The other facts are that Matt didn't check in as Matt Murdock, he checked in as Foggy Nelson. No one besides the people on Fisk's payroll would know or assume that was Matt. All evidence that would prove Matt was there in the prison would also implicate Fisk, and expose his prison takeover/deceit with Jasper Evans. Now here is where we are forced to speculate because it makes no sense, and that's with the drowning: it's unclear how it was pulled, e.g. clearly Fisk's men killed the cab driver who took Matt to the prison and replaced him with one of their own, but there's also some debate as to whether or not they swapped cabs along the way, since clearly several hours pass between Matt getting into the cab and passing out and when he wakes up right before the cab hits the water (it's day when he leaves the prison, and already night when the drowning happens). Because that is a messy way to deal with him. The logical thing to do would've been to just shoot him, not drown him and hope he doesn't escape.
Fisk's ankle bracelet
- How is Fisk able to make visits to his secret room when he's got his ankle monitor on? Those things do register altitude, and the secret room is clearly not on the same floor as the main living room.
- Chances are it probably does, but the FBI are using a special application which doesn't take that into account. An oversight, but understandable considering that Fisk calls all the shots, and the seniormost agent involved in this operation (the one who'd be in charge of these logistics) is in his pocket.
What leverage does Matt have over Fisk?
- At the end of Season 3, Matt and Fisk have an agreement where Fisk won't target Karen and Foggy, and in return Matt won't implicate Vanessa in Nadeem's murder. But how would Matt be able to do that? The only evidence he has for Vanessa's crime is Felix Manning's word, which was taken under duress and hardly actionable in a court of law. So what's to stop Fisk from going after Karen and Foggy anyway and leaving Matt with an empty boast that he can't carry through?
- Wasn't Mrs. Shelby present in the room when Vanessa made the call? If so, she could come forward with what she claims happened in the exchange between Felix, Fisk, and Vanessa.
- In Season 2, when Matt makes his visit to Fisk in prison, he says he can prove Vanessa was an accomplice to all of Fisk's previous crimes. While it's possible Matt was just bluffing in that instance trying to get a reaction out of Fisk, more likely he wasn't bluffing. If so, he can still do that, and the totality of the recent circumstances (particularly Vanessa's connection to Felix Manning) would be sufficient enough to at least open a case against her for Fisk's more recent crimes, even if it's not necessarily enough for a conviction by itself.
Matt never tells Karen or Foggy about the prison visit
- How come Matt's visit to the prison is never brought up again after it happened, outside of Nadeem briefly mentioning it when he's questioning Foggy? Did Foggy ever discuss this with Matt? Did Matt ever discuss this with Karen? Because what happened at the prison should have bigger implications than they're implying.
- There are a couple moments in season 3 that seem to exist in a vacuum. The writing in season 2 operated similarly, with key details left out in order to simplify conflicts and streamline the narrative. The scene where Karen discovers Elektra and Stick at Matt’s apartment is a perfect demonstration of this: she goes to Foggy having only noticed Elektra because it’s easier to write her as being angry about Matt apparently cheating on her than contend with Karen, a keen investigator, interrogating Matt and Stick at the apartment and discovering Matt’s secret five episodes ahead of schedule.
The prison riot in season 3 is the same way. It could have had some pretty significant implications for the way the story unfolds. How do the Feds account for Matt’s disappearance afterwards? Not a single person questioned Matt being shoved into a cab rather than held back for questioning? Maybe the implication is supposed to be that Fisk’s control over the prison is so ironclad that news of the riot doesn’t even register in law enforcement, but it's harder to believe that not even Nadeem asked one question about it.
Still, it's definitely strange to never have it brought up again. You'd think Foggy would bring up the prison when he's talking with Matt before the Bulletin attack, since it was his ID that Matt used, and such a dangerous situation for Matt to put himself in. This could have precipitated a conversation about Matt going to see Fisk in season 2, revealing that Fisk has had control over the prison for a long time, resulting in an even bigger reaction from Foggy because both his friends are putting themselves in harm’s way. It would have drawn stronger parallels when Karen goes to offer herself to Fisk. And Foggy himself could've found his district attorney campaign in jeopardy due to the Bar Association opening an investigation into him if word got out what happened. - There's probably a number of factors. For one, this is a Fisk-orchestrated hit on Matt, trying to kill him. So publicly it’s not gonna be mentioned because it falls in the category of things that Fisk is going to make “disappear” into a black hole. And people try to kill Matt so often that he can’t be too hung up on particulars, especially when the FBI comes after his public identity immediately afterwards which is a more novel experience for him. Fisk using it against Foggy… well, sure, he could've used it to get Foggy placed under investigation, but that would've only been a short term option. It's likely that either Foggy would have used his lawyering skills to cut if off pretty quickly or would have rather fallen on his sword with that one than be swayed by Fisk (which is why when Fisk does go after Foggy, he does so using his family). And Fisk is smart enough to predict those two outcomes.
- There's likely two reasons Fisk didn't use Matt's impersonation of Foggy at the prison against Foggy. First, Fisk's M.O. largely revolves around keeping his criminal activities silent and buried, so he wouldn't want anyone looking too closely at what was going on in that prison, where the warden and many of the guards and inmates are controlled by him. Second, Fisk doesn’t need to use what happened at the prison, because he already has other plans for Foggy. The plan to use his family as leverage against him was already underway. There was also the plan to use Dex to discredit Daredevil and make him “Public Enemy No. 1.” Combine these two schemes, and some dialogue between Fisk and Felix Manning that implies that Dex would've eventually been discarded of just like any other henchman that Fisk no longer has any use for, it can be inferred that Fisk's endgame was that he would kill Dex, then expose Matt as Daredevil, which would also take down Foggy by extension. Or if Foggy wins the election, against the odds, Fisk approaches him and threatens to expose to the world that his brother committed fraud and that Matt is Daredevil unless he does Fisk's bidding for him.
- It would've been fun to see Matt deal with the consequences of his reckless decision to risk Foggy's law license, but at the same time, it makes sense that Fisk didn't go that route, given what he had done to Foggy's family. Fisk views Foggy as more useful to him as a pawn than as a discredited nobody, especially if he can secure Foggy's loyalty. And while Fisk could use the footage of Matt escaping the prison to prove his identity as Daredevil, he'd first have to weigh any potential benefits from revealing anything that happened at the prison against how both the public and the FBI as a whole will react, especially if there's a chance that people might piece together that Fisk orchestrated the prison ambush.
- There are a couple moments in season 3 that seem to exist in a vacuum. The writing in season 2 operated similarly, with key details left out in order to simplify conflicts and streamline the narrative. The scene where Karen discovers Elektra and Stick at Matt’s apartment is a perfect demonstration of this: she goes to Foggy having only noticed Elektra because it’s easier to write her as being angry about Matt apparently cheating on her than contend with Karen, a keen investigator, interrogating Matt and Stick at the apartment and discovering Matt’s secret five episodes ahead of schedule.
Matt doesn't notice an obvious trap
- So what was Matt thinking? He goes to the prison, one where he knows Fisk has control over the guards to the point that they did nothing as Fisk beat Matt up for threatening to keep Vanessa away from him. Why does he seem so surprised when Fisk calls him on the prison phone and reminds him of that? No wonder the Albanian boss called him an idiot for showing his face there.
- When Matt made his visit to Fisk, a lot of other things were going on. Reyes was dead, Foggy had just been shot, Frank was on the loose, his firm has fallen apart, and he was dealing with the Hand ninjas and their blood harvesting facilities. He was trying to put out a lot of fires at that time. Coupled with his second visit to the prison coming right after spending a couple months laid up in St. Agnes from his Midland Circle injuries, he could easily have just forgotten about his visit. Alternately, he did still remember Fisk owning the guards, but just didn't realize how deep his control went because he only caught a small glimpse of the operation. That, and he may have even thought that since Fisk was now out of prison, he had no reason to continue paying the guards and inmates there. And of course, no one could foresee that Fisk had a secret room in the Presidential Hotel to continue delivering orders to his underlings and from which he had a direct line to the prison (the only people who knew about the secret room were Fisk himself and Felix Manning).
Matt and Melvin
- Why was Matt being a jerk to Melvin when Fisk threatened him and forced him to make the suit for Dex? Why not use his legal skills to get Melvin out of jail and maybe have Melvin make him a new suit so he can properly fight Dex on more equal ground?
- Matt feels bad for not saving Melvin, but he also feels betrayed, because Melvin did betray him. Maybe Melvin did it for the right reasons, but he did do it. Matt’s suit is very much a part of him, and he feels violated that now someone else, someone who does not share his mission or his struggles, gets to wear it. Matt was also going through a lot at that time, compared to his first few interactions with Melvin in seasons 1 and 2. Between Midland Circle, people dying because of Melvin's actions, and the fact his moral code was at its breaking point, protecting the one man who could have prevented the attack was probably the last thing on Matt's mind. Matt just couldn't respond rationally to Melvin going back to help Fisk again.
- Bear in mind a few things here.
- One, Matt is pissed that Melvin went back to working for Fisk and made Dex the Daredevil suit, which he used to murder people as Daredevil, violating one of the most sacred tenants of Matt’s character and the Daredevil identity. He knows it's not rational and that Melvin did not willingly help Fisk, but it's still a betrayal in Matt's mind, a perfectly human reaction.
- Second, right now there is very little Matt can do to help Melvin. At this point he’s still regarded by Nadeem as a suspect, so it would be a problem for him use any legal skills to help Melvin, at least not without risking that Nadeem might arrest him if he shows up at the FBI office saying he's come to represent Melvin. Now it's possible that Matt could show up as Melvin's lawyer, assert his fifth amendment rights to Nadeem, and insist on representing Melvin first before Nadeem can ask any questions of Matt. But then Fisk would do everything in his power to keep Melvin out of court since he could blow the whistle on Fisk (not just for being able to identify Dex and Felix, but also because back in season 1, Melvin's shop was a place where Fisk had discussions with Wesley and Owlsley about various criminal deals like the death of Detective Blake), ranging from sending Dex after Foggy, Melvin and Betsy, to exposing Melvin’s status as an ex-con with a mental disorder to the public, and maybe even Melvin's relationship with his parole officer (which is a big ethics violation, if you've seen the third season of Fargo) in order to discredit him. Matt also can’t protect Melvin or Betsy from Fisk, since his reach extends so far. If Matt and Melvin somehow escaped the workshop trap, then they risk Fisk having Betsy killed or kidnapped to draw melvin out of hiding. If Matt has them hide in the church like Karen, it’s the church massacre a few episodes early. If Matt tries to get them out of New York, Fisk can have his people watch the airlines, subways and roads to keep Melvin and Betsy in the city where he could corner them. So Matt has no way to offer Melvin or Betsy protection.
- Third, Melvin can’t make Matt another suit because his workshop was canvassed by the FBI after the trap, so it'd be difficult for Melvin to get the resources and material needed to create another suit without Matt breaking into the workshop again, something Fisk would never let him get to. Not without Matt doing something like strongarm Brett into releasing the suit from evidence.
- To sum it up, Matt didn't really have any options to help Melvin that could feasibly work for more then a week maybe, and was about to get cornered by another FBI group, so he was forced to cut his losses and leave Melvin behind. While he did seriously luck out with Fisk not deciding to have Melvin killed on the spot, now that Matt’s back with Nelson, Murdock & Page, he can help Melvin get out of his legal troubles, especially now that Fisk’s corruption of the FBI is public. And if he really needs a protective suit, he can again, strongarm Brett into releasing the Daredevil suit from evidence.
- Had the show not been cancelled, Melvin was going to become an antagonist for the fourth season, that he would've become Gladiator and shown a grudge against Matt for abandoning him and not being able to protect him from Fisk.
- Matt's not really in any position to help Melvin, even if he wanted to. The FBI are considering him a wanted fugitive, so he'd be risking arrest showing up at the FBI office to represent Melvin. He could arrange to get Melvin out on bail without showing up in person, but how is he going to pay the bondsman? He doesn’t even have money to put in the new wallet he gives Foggy. (And how did he acquire the wallet, anyway - shoplifting? Or maybe he picked up his own wallet when he came back to his apartment before the feds got there). He might have credit cards and money in his bank accounts, but even if he can access these sources of funds and has enough to pay the bondsman, the FBI probably are monitoring his accounts. It’s also likely that Melvin can’t get out on bail in any event, because he's on parole, and his fight with the FBI agents would be a parole violation. So he’d remain in custody on a “parole hold”. As for getting Melvin to build Matt a new suit, there's two factors that get in the way from a character and writing standpoint.
- From a timeline perspective, the season's timeline would have to be stretched out a lot to give Matt time to get his life (and legal status) back together enough to represent Melvin, for Melvin to be released from jail, and for Melvin to build Matt a new suit prior to the three-way fight. Admittedly, a shortcut for this would've been for Matt to ask Foggy to represent Melvin. Those two likely would've gotten along great (Melvin would see Foggy for the wonderful dude that he is, Foggy would appreciate Melvin’s dedication to keeping Matt from dying every night. And Melvin’s difficulties would shine a bright light on Foggy’s privileged life, and that would be fascinating to explore).
- From a character perspective, setting aside the complications of Matt representing Melvin, there's the question of how Matt getting his suit prior to the three-way fight would aid his character development. He explicitly says to Melvin that he outgrew what the suit stood for. Therefore, for him to put on the suit again, one of two things would have to happen to Matt. Either A) he recognizes anew the value of what the suit represents, or B) he decides that self-preservation is more important than whether or not he still fits with what the suit represents. Both of those would be huge milestones in his character arc that are not really justified at any point prior to the three-way fight when he chooses not to kill Fisk (at which point the first scenario would possibly be justified). So as cool as Matt in a Daredevil suit might be for his fight with Dex and Fisk, it’s legally implausible and would also require a complete change to the second half of Matt’s character arc.
Not one of Matt's allies investigates?
- Sure, Jessica, Luke and Danny all assume Matt is dead, but when Dex is running around killing people as Daredevil, not one of them investigates?
- Not really their jurisdiction.
- Matt is willfully and intentionally self-alienating throughout the entirety of Season 3. His friends impose their kindness and assistance upon him. Why would he let Jessica or Luke or Danny help him with Fisk, when one of his big character flaws is that part of the reason he even put on the mask was because he needs to "let the devil out" once in a while? And Fisk is the man he hates more than anyone else in the world. Sister Maggie actually points out recruiting powered allies would be a good idea, and Matt refuses because "It's not their fight."
- Well how would they look into it? Taking state laws and stuff into consideration there's nothing they could have done, and basically all of the Defenders are on shaky ground with the police, so they have no reason to believe the police would listen. Being a vigilante/hero already puts them on shaky ground with actual law enforcement. Imagine knowing someone being investigated, do you go up to the police and say "They couldn't have possibly done it, I know them and they're very nice!" You'd be shunted right out of there. As far as they all know, Matt Murdock was dead, so they have no reason to believe they need to clear his name/protect him either really. They most likely think it's just some crazy copycat, which it is. Though Jessica should have investigated herself. Maybe she did, off-screen, but it was ultimately unnecessary. Or, judging from the upswing in business she was in by the start of her show's third season, maybe she was too busy.
- Danny is quite possibly out of the country during this time.
- Luke has made a deal with the crime families of Harlem to keep it as neutral territory. His lack of presence at Fisk's gathering is either a glaring oversight on Fisk's part, or maybe a deliberate decision to leave him alone provided Harlem is left alone. Luke is now too much of a public figure to investigate personally, and it would take time to mount a smear campaign through underlings. Luke is still also a convicted felon, and despite being cleared, it's still on his record, meaning any interaction with the FBI could be disastrous for his freedom, especially if Fisk decided to pull strings.
- Frank has distanced himself from New York City and is basically a drifter on a road trip, and while some of Dex's activities certainly made front page news like the Bulletin attack, Fisk's release probably did not.
Karen's attitude on killing
- The "It's a Catholic thing" conversation between Foggy and Karen in Fogwell's Gym in the last episode, following Nadeem's death, is confusing. When Matt and Karen were hiding from Dex in the crypt, Karen was trying to talk Matt out of killing Fisk. Now she's all for it. But Foggy knows Matt. He knows killing Fisk will destroy Matt. Seems a bit out of character on Karen's part. Like, I get that she's saying it as a bit of desperation, like there's no other way, but it's completely in contrast to the previous episode, to the point that it almost feels like her lines were originally someone else's or something. She practically pointed out to Matt herself that killing Fisk would destroy him, at least change him in a manner he'd never recover from, yet here it's like this is a small revelation Foggy's giving her.
- Karen’s character is a total contradiction. Deborah Ann Woll even said it in an interview. Sometimes she is light and sometimes darkness. That’s why she is attracted to both Matt and Frank. But because of said contradictions, it's also really hard to understand what Karen's doing or what goes on in her head, to the point that at times it's "whatever the writers need Karen to do" (which may in part explain why Karen seems written so differently on The Punisher compared to Daredevil). At best, maybe she's reacting out of fear that Fisk is above the law now that he's murdered Nadeem, and murder is the only way. But that doesn't explain why she pins that expectation on Matt though.
- Mind you, Karen's a pretty irrational person. Starting with her haunted past, then losing Ben, and her increasingly unhinged behavior after killing Wesley, she spirals more and more quickly as the show progresses. Consider that moment here in season 3 where she literally crosses the street just for an excuse to pull her gun on those kids catcalling women and teach them a lesson. That's not all that different from the vigilantism for which she criticizes Matt. Yes, she cares about Matt and Frank differently and has differing standards and expectations for many reasons. But not all of her reasoning is rational and based on either evidence or any kind of moral code, which is ironic because Frank and Matt each have more robust codes than Karen. Yet she judges Matt just as harshly as Matt judges Frank, while she herself barely seems to pass any judgement at all on Frank and treats Matt as if she's incapable of sympathizing with his position, something clearly untrue because she's capable of sympathizing with Frank. Her behavior is irrational in the sense that it doesn't scale proportionally to its context. If it were based on something she believes, an inner conviction of virtuous conduct, it would be consistent across situations. But it's all over the place and inconsistent within itself, which means it's based on emotion and a result not of her evaluation of the circumstance but a result of her own inner turmoil; She is confused and, thus, her behavior is confused.
- It's unlikely Karen's in favor of killing Fisk. Fisk has proven to be untouchable, but Matt is one of few people who has been able to touch him. Matt could've gotten Dex to kill Fisk for him, but that's not much better, in a moral sense. And while Karen could've called Frank, one must remember that 1) she didn't know where he was/how to contact him and 2) Considering the emotional turmoil of rekindling her memories of killing Wesley and her brother, the last thing she'd want to do is basically order a hit on someone.
- Basically Karen in season 3 is about coming to terms with her past and present, guilt and consequences for poor life choices, and Matt and Foggy's acceptance/forgiveness means a second chance at a loving family.
Karen's reaction when Matt asks for her help
- Karen's reaction when Matt appears at her apartment to ask her to track down Jasper Evans is baffling. I mean she paid for his rent, hoped he might had survived and when he stands in front of her...she's angry at him? I can get her anger since Fisk has sent the FBI after them, but you'd think that since a missed friend of hers showed up that damaged looking, she would be happy that he is alive, ask for explanations... and try to help. Also, she was very rude to Matt saying he owed her for the rent. How do you expect Matt to pay you back, Karen? He doesn't have a job, so he has no money.
- Hell, why didn’t she ask him about his reasons to not show up earlier? Just from looking at him she should be able to tell that he obviously had no nice, relaxing time. Now he sits in front of her and asking for help. It would make more sense for her to run up to him and hug him tightly, then ask what happened in a gentle voice. Maybe even convince Matt to move in with her until Fisk was back in prison. And a "I will agree to help you if you tell me what you did to get Fisk to send the FBI after us."
- How Karen would react if Matt was more injured would differ depending on how injured Matt was. If Matt is very badly injured, she would be more focused on that. Like if he was in danger of dying, all of Karen's anger would be out the window and she’d be entirely focused on helping him. If he was just slightly more banged up, she might have helped him but also maintained the same angry, distant attitude. And it’s basically a sliding scale between those two extremes based on how hurt he is. But even when we get to the events with Dex in the church, Matt’s pretty hurt then and she manages to balance being very very concerned for him and still pretty angry. So even if he was very hurt, it would have done little to alleviate her anger, it just would have made her compartmentalize her anger.
- Season 3 (but also season 2 more) has a lot of moments where things would be solved if two characters just talked to each other for a few minutes and said "What is up with you?" This is one of those, where it would've made sense if Karen backed off him. Not only that, but Matt is also obviously shown to be someone who feels cornered or guilty when people are confrontational with him. So the direct "What the fuck is wrong with you?" approach that Karen and season 2 Foggy use with him? Pretty much never going to go well. But if Karen tried an indirect approach, like maybe being less angry, that would've done things better. How Karen handled his reveal wasn't all that great either. He put it all on the table and she then went on the attack. Understandable, but still..
- Not to mention Matt is NOT in a good place mentally AT ALL. And then with all of the shit that is happening too him, from losing his hearing to Fisk trying to have him killed in prison, there is no way that he is handling that well nor walking away from it. Also the fact that literally every scene with him he looks like he wants to die and just looks like he has given up just shows how awful he is mentally. It would've done wonders if Karen, Foggy, Brett, or even Marci saw Matt, realized he was not okay, and forced him to go see a therapist. Eventually he gets better and he's able to think rationally in taking down Fisk.
- Karen's anger is justified from her point of view. Matt let the people he cares most about and who love him believe that he was dead and go through that pain. And Karen paid that rent (even though it must've been a financial burden, which is somehow glossed over) as a way of looking out for him so that he had a home to return to because she believed that he couldn’t do it for himself because he was hurt or trapped somewhere. So it’s fair for her to be upset when she finds out that he could have been there taking care of his own problems and not turning his back on her and Foggy and willfully chose to run away from his life and his friends. And in one sense that’s fair. Matt did make his own mess and did treat her and Foggy unfairly. But Matt also has a lot of issues going on that caused him to react the way he did and his emotional health was disastrous, so we the audience understand why he behaved the way he did, and as she is able to talk more with Foggy and Maggie and Matt himself, Karen comes to understand a little better what was going on with Matt that made him do the things he did. And that understanding doesn’t excuse Matt's behavior, but Karen’s no stranger to making poor decisions and shutting people out because of the pain you’re going through, so she’s able to work through it and be there for Matt and help him get his head on straight (as she works through her own issues) and ultimately forgive him for the things he’s done (and be forgiven by him for the things she’s done) and rebuild that relationship with him.
Ultimately, she didn't demand that he pay back the rent because she cares about him and chose to do that for him while he was ‘away’ and by the end of the season she realizes that while he was in the wrong he was also going through something very real, and she’s not interested in punishing him for it anymore. But also Matt probably paid back the rent money anyway, because he’s a nice guy and recognizing the weight of what Karen did for him. - It's a little unreasonable for Karen. They haven’t seen each other for months, he came back from the dead and all she does is talk about her neighbor? I get that she is mad at him but her reaction doesn’t feel natural. As in, it doesn't feel very natural to me for Karen to tell anecdotes like she does. Father Lantom is the type of character who does that. It feels like it'd be a bit more in character for Karen to just say, "What's the point?", without the anecdote (this isn't to say that Karen would never tell stories about her past. This is to say that she’s not really the type of character to start telling a seemingly random, unrelated story that you don’t get the point of it until the end. Like, if you ask Father Lantom a question about religion, it would seem much more natural for him to start telling a story as a way of illustrating his pointnote instead of just answering you. But with Karen, it just kind of screams, “a writer wrote this”.)
- Karen's attitude is somewhat understandable. She's had a few very stressful days to process that Matt is alive. She has mourned Matt and obsessed about it for months, paying all his bills and rent. Then Fisk gets out of prison, Matt comes back from the dead...and promptly steals Foggy's wallet, then impersonates Foggy to visit a prison and ask questions about Fisk (getting Foggy and Karen in trouble with the FBI in the process), and tells Foggy not to tell Karen that he's alive and to stay out of the fight against Fisk. Then Matt shows up unnannounced at Karen's apartment, momentarily scaring her into thinking she’s about to be assaulted, but he doesn't apologize for the grief he's caused her and Foggy, says he had "reasons" for staying away, and then gets to asking her to help him find a lead on Jasper Evans. And all this is while Karen is a bit hungover from having just divulged to Foggy the night before about what she did to Wesley. Given all this, it's reasonable that Karen would be a little bit pissed at Matt.
But it's important to note that Karen does come around to realize she was a bit out of line in her attitude towards Matt. After her staff meeting at the Bulletin that morning, she meets with Foggy to vent a little, and Foggy suggests that she shouldn't give up on Matt. After that, Karen goes to the church to meet with Matt to say that she's changed her mind, and she's going to help him find Jasper Evans after all. While she’s waiting there, it looks like Karen is contemplating just how long Matt might've been staying here, not too far from her apartment and her office, all while she was busy upending her life and decimating her finances and having her heart broken by him.
Matt doesn't show, but Sister Maggie does. Karen is visibly frustrated by Sister Maggie's lack of insight about Matt...until Sister Maggie brings up Matt's abandonment trauma and the fact that Matt is “in need". This clearly strikes a chord with Karen based on her facial reaction, as she now realizes that Matt's way of communicating is driven in large part by the trauma of people abandoning him. So she decides it's worth risking her wellbeing to bring in Jasper Evans. Matt happens to be at the drug den, and after he helps her subdue Jasper's guards, she can see for herself that he's mentally not okay, and clearly has a pang of guilt over how she talked to him earlier that day.
Matt's attitude on killing or not killing
- So in the back part of season 3, we see Matt once again contemplate killing Fisk and waver back and forth on whether or not it's the right thing to do. But is there an actual difference in the situations of these things? Surely he remembers that the last time he went after Fisk with the intention of killing him, Fisk knew he was coming and laid a trap for him?
- The "wanting to kill deliberately and with premeditation" is the big difference between Matt's struggle with dealing with Fisk compared to the street level brawls where he is in the moment and never really has the intent to kill. With Nobu and others (like the Russian that he threw off Claire's roof), you could argue he very well took an action that resulted in their death and seems to know they are dead. But there is some loophole in his head (he is a lawyer). Of course, these plot points and slight character contradictions make sense when you just factor in seasons 1 and 3.note
- Fisk was very much forced by circumstances to murder his father, or at the very least, the first blow he dealt with that hammer (everything beyond that, not so much). This explains Fisk's ruthlessness and his ability to kill. After getting a taste of what it's like to take someone's life, it becomes that much easier to do it again. Karen shows a very similar fear and has nightmares after killing Wesley where her conscience takes on Fisk's form taunting her about killing her brother and Wesley to express the same sentiment.
Now, there had never been a circumstance in Matt's life where he had to choose to murder deliberately like Fisk did as a child until the events of season 1. There are many encounters Matt has had where simply killing would have resolved things much more cleanly with less collateral damage in the end. When he is beating that abusive father, Matt's best way to ensure he wouldn't hurt her again would have been to simply kill him. When the Russian he tortures on Claire's roof recognizes Claire, Matt's best course of action would have been to kill him to protect her (he lasts long enough for the Ranskahovs to wake him up and get him to cough up Claire's address). In season 2, Frank puts a gun to Matt's head and tells him to kill in order to save a lowlife like Grotto, and Grotto dies anyways. Matt's need to not deliberately kill someone nor stand by and let them die if it's possible to save them, actually gets a ton of people hurt and some killed in the end. But he still won't deliberately cross that line. It is after the Bulletin attack, and Fisk sending Dex out to tarnish Matt's reputation, that Matt realizes maybe the only way to stop Fisk and accomplish his goal of protecting people and the city is by murdering him. At this point he and Fisk are on opposite sides of that hard line. Matt's soul isn't damned yet. To an extent, let's remember Matt also wasn't 100% back to full fighting condition since he was still recovering from his Midland Circle injuries.
If only Matt had his suit...
- If Matt had his red suit on him, instead of being forced to wear his ninja costume, would he have stood a better chance against Dex in all of his fights?
- Yes and no. When they fought hand to hand, Matt clearly came out on top, and with his peak agility, reflexes, senses, and the suit, he could've closed the distance between him and Dex much more often and landed heavier blows, especially with his billy clubs. Also, the suit would protect Matt from the majority of Dex's projectiles. Some of them though, like the scissors Dex uses to wound Matt in the Bulletin attack, would still penetrate it. Furthermore, just like Matt figures out by the church attack he has to focus on Dex's exposed jaw area, Dex would do the same to Matt with his projectiles. So Matt would certainly have more of an advantage with the suit, but Dex would be able to compensate for that, and spamming projectiles at a single area could be brutal.note
Turning Dex against Fisk....why?
- In the season finale, Matt wants to stop Fisk. He doesn't want to kill him, but knows that's the only way, so he's forcing himself to do it. Dex wants to kill Fisk too, could very easily do it, and would have zero regrets about it. But the first two times Matt fought Dex, and the first time he fought Fisk, he barely made it out. So why did he send Dex after Fisk, only to stop him from killing him, and then fight both, while also trying to protect Vanessa from Dex? What's the point? Just let Fisk and Dex try and kill each other, and whoever wins will be weak enough anyway, and Matt could easily take him...
- Matt specifically sent Dex after Fisk was because Matt didn’t think he’d be able to cut through Fisk’s security, which was increased for the wedding. At least, not without killing people. Dex, however, knows Fisk’s security protocols, so he could cut through more efficiently (also without killing people; Dex tended to leave the non-corrupt FBI agents alive). So Matt could follow in his wake and only have to deal with Fisk and Dex, rather than dealing with Fisk and all the FBI.
- That raises two big issues: 1) Matt never really had a problem with getting into somewhere before. We've seen him take down more heavily guarded places with more trained guards, like the Russians' hideouts, the Hand's bases of operation, and even the Presidential Hotel earlier in season 3. Brett made a point of telling Foggy that while he will send extra security, it will be rookies and retirees. Based on how previous fights played out, Matt very easily could have taken them if he wanted to. 2) This is assuming that Dex, certified psychopath, highly dangerous, who just murdered one of his friends (Ray), after not just learning about the object of his obsession being dead, but also finding her dead body locked up in a freezer, would make sensible decisions and wouldn't hurt anyone standing between him and the person who killed her. He wasn't shy about killing off anyone who stood in his way at either the Bulletin or church attacks. And it was stated several times, that without his meds, a strict routine and a "North Star" that he is basically unhinged and unpredictable. Matt knows this, he listened to the doctor's tapes. Releasing Dex's psycho side like that and then setting him loose on a hotel full of innocent people is not like Matt at all. Matt had a lot of fights waiting for him that day: Fisk, Dex, the feds and cops guarding Fisk, and he definitely needed to take at least one out of the mix, but the way he did it just doesn't really click. It worked on the show, because it was supposed to work, but if this wasn't a season finale, things probably would have went differently.
- The first issue there is one the show could’ve solved by “showing” rather than “telling” how difficult it would be to get in. We get a couple hints in dialogue: not just Foggy’s conversation with Brett, but also Matt’s conversation with Mrs. Shelby the first time he breaks in. Mrs. Shelby mentions that she’ll have to tell Fisk that Matt was there, and that Fisk will beef up security, and that Matt will “never get another chance like this.” But a few lines of dialogue really pale in comparison to Matt’s effectiveness at breaking into places, which has been demonstrated throughout the earlier seasons. What is “told” to the audience will never override what has been “shown.” To the second point…well, Matt had no problems with Nadeem fatally shooting several of Fisk's men when they were escaping the traffic jam ambush (yes, Matt got Nadeem to aim at non-lethal targets, but once they were out of the van, it's pretty clear that Nadeem scored a few deadly hits and Matt never seemed bothered.) So maybe that explains why he’d be more chill with letting Dex run around the hotel, but not entirely. This is definitely an area where there should've been more insight into Matt’s headspace, for this too is an area where Season 3 did quite a bit of “telling” rather than “showing.”
- Matt specifically sent Dex after Fisk was because Matt didn’t think he’d be able to cut through Fisk’s security, which was increased for the wedding. At least, not without killing people. Dex, however, knows Fisk’s security protocols, so he could cut through more efficiently (also without killing people; Dex tended to leave the non-corrupt FBI agents alive). So Matt could follow in his wake and only have to deal with Fisk and Dex, rather than dealing with Fisk and all the FBI.
Fisk's hidden assets
- How could Fisk afford to buy the Presidential Hotel? By the time he recruited Frank Castle to take out Dutton in season 2, Donovan insinuated that he was practically broke between paying for his attorney fees, setting up an offshore fund for Vanessa's protection, and paying just three men to form a mini protection crew for himself inside the prison. How did he go from that to being able to secretly buy a Manhattan hotel without anyone noticing?
- With all the pieces that had to be moved for many of Fisk's long-term manipulation gambits that come to fruition in season 3 to work, it's easy to imagine that he probably had other revenue streams that were never discovered by the federal prosecutors, and which he never told Donovan about.
Matt, Karen and Foggy didn't look for Nadeem?
- What were Matt, Foggy, and Karen doing after Nadeem punched out Foggy and bolted from the courthouse bathroom? Shouldn't they have been focused on trying to find again? Matt knew Nadeem was going to be a target. He and Nadeem just ran a firepower gauntlet to get to the courthouse. Did Matt really think that, just because they failed with the grand jury, Nadeem was out of the woods with Fisk? I have a few ideas about what Matt or all three of them might have been doing offscreen, but none of them really seem to fit what we're shown:
- Theory #1: Matt goes to talk to Blake Tower, as he says he’s going to do, then returns to find Foggy. When he learns Nadeem has fled, they search for him, but inexplicably don’t think to look for him at his house. Maybe they think "he wouldn’t go there because it's the first place Fisk would think to check". If so, they seriously misunderstood Nadeem’s state of mind. Or maybe they did go to Nadeem’s home but arrived too late. In which case, when we see them at Fogwell’s at the end of the episode, and Foggy is talking to Brett on the phone, they already know that Nadeem is dead.
- Theory #2: Matt goes to talk to Tower – or not (perhaps he was lying about that, and Foggy thought he was lying about it, too). Either way, he takes off and tries and fails to get to Fisk. There are a couple of problems with this theory. First off, when Foggy comes around from Nadeem knocking him out, the first thing he would do is to call Matt and tell him that Nadeem had given him the slip. If this had occurred, Matt likely would have dropped whatever he was doing to look for Nadeem. (We’ve seen that Matt has a cell phone. Nadeem called it and texted to him about Fisk meeting with the other crime bosses. Matt apparently used it to call Foggy from the church, so Foggy has the number saved on his phone.) It’s possible Foggy couldn’t reach Matt for some reason, but if that was the case, wouldn’t Foggy and Karen have looked for Nadeem on their own? Another problem with this theory is that Matt is still wearing his business suit when we see him at Fogwell’s at the end of the episode. If he was going after Fisk, he would have done so as Daredevil.
- Theory #3: They hung out at Fogwell’s and didn’t look for Nadeem. I very much hope this wasn’t the case. Because this would have been out of character, not only for Matt but for all three of them.
- The first theory arguably would've been the less time consuming (in terms of screen time) to work with (though possibly not in terms of money/shoot time). This is admittedly an issue where any perceived out-of-character behavior would've been negated if we saw the trio making ANY effort to find Nadeem. They didn’t have to be successful. Showing Matt hearing the shot while searching, and then arriving at the house to find Nadeem’s body (and maybe having a fight scene with Dex) would’ve been enough (questions might still be asked of why he didn’t check Nadeem's house, but … that is a less of a foible to forgive than him not searching at all). It would’ve added to Matt’s rage and distress, and added even more weight to his confrontation with Fisk and with his ultimate refusal to kill.
What was Vanessa facing charges for?
- Fisk states to Nadeem his reason for making the deal is to protect Vanessa from criminal prosecution. But what charges, exactly, was she facing at the time he made the deal? Until she orders Nadeem's murder, any charges would have to be based on something she did during season 1, because she was in Europe for all of season 2. In season 1, she knew Fisk was running a criminal enterprise, but she was not an active participant in it and I don't think Fisk told her any of the finer details about his activities, judging from the conversations they have when she returns at the end of the season. Merely knowing Fisk was a gangster and associating with him would not expose her to criminal prosecution.
What evidence does Fisk have that Matt is Daredevil?
- I think it's strongly implied that Fisk was going to out Matt as Daredevil after Dex had discredited Daredevil's name and been disposed of. But what evidence does Fisk have if that was his plan? The prison fight video doesn't seem it like would be very useful (other than to prove Matt's not a helpless blind man)..
- There’s the fact that Daredevil works closely with Nelson & Murdock, suggesting a connection of some kind (Fisk would know from his dirty cops that Nelson & Murdock was repping Carl Hoffman after Daredevil saved Hoffman's life). But the strongest evidence would come from dissecting Midland Circle. Matt Murdock’s involvement with the other Defenders can be sorta explained by his professional relationship to Jessica Jones, but then Matt Murdock gets “kidnapped” by her and Luke, then disappears, and Daredevil disappears at the same time? (And there's no indication that Danny was impersonating Daredevil like he did in the comics during "The Devil in Cell Block D" arc at any point between The Defenders and Iron Fist season 2, otherwise he or Colleen would've brought it up) And then, of course, Matt Murdock shows up again right as Daredevil also returns. Matt also vanishes from the Bulletin when the police show up and everyone else who was in the office is either dead or injured, although it seems like no one but Foggy or Karen realize that the real Daredevil was there to fight Dex, so it might be harder to use that fact as effective evidence.
In terms of witnesses, Fisk could subpoena Foggy or Karen. They wouldn’t be able to plead the 5th with regards to everything. And there’ve gotta be random people who’ve seen Matt doing sketchy stuff. (Like, did no one seriously see him sprint off to rescue Claire in front of the precinct in Season 1? What about those guys he beat up while protecting Nadeem?) - It's unlikely anyone would have put two and two together on the disappearances of Matt Murdock and Daredevil on the same night at Midland Circle. As far as anyone knew, Daredevil had not been active for however much time passed between Elektra's death and the start of The Defenders. Luke even comments that he thought Daredevil had "retired." Very few people knew Daredevil was at Midland Circle, and there were no witnesses when he showed up to help Jessica rescue Trish from Murakami. Instead, the connection would have to be made based on the reappearances of Matt Murdock and the real Daredevil at around the same time in season 3 (a few days pass between Matt attacking thugs later revealed to be in Fisk's employ in the first episode, and the Bulletin attack). However, Fisk would still need to address the "but he's blind" objection, and for that he'd need the prison video and/or witnesses. The witnesses to Matt and Nadeem fighting the henchmen in traffic on their way to the courthouse would be useful,note or anyone who saw Matt dash off to rescue Claire. They might not want to come forward, but if Fisk found any of them, he would have ways of making them talk. As for Foggy and Karen taking the 5th, that would have to be addressed on a question-by-question basis. You can't assert the 5th as a basis not to show up in response to a deposition or grand jury subpoena without being held in contempt. They would have to show up and invoke the 5th Amendment in response to specific questions when the answers would incriminate them or could lead to evidence against them and/or Matt in a criminal case.
- It would be very out of character for Fisk to use the video as evidence, not to mention it would be a very risky move for him to try such a thing. Fisk is extremely arrogant. He is a manipulator and a controller who creates his own reality where he is the ultimate law and the social institutions (police, legal system, probably media) are his tools to control people as his subjects. Not to have micro-control, but the control of a god. Destroying Daredevil through turning the public opinion against him is entirely fitting to this end. That was also the tool he tried to implement in season 1 by painting the Devil of Hell's Kitchen as a cop killer. The fact that Daredevil would be revealed as the blind lawyer Matt Murdock, after Daredevil is gunned down by the NYPD or the FBI, would be something that would add to the shock and sense of betrayal for the people of Hell’s Kitchen. If they couldn’t trust someone like Matt - who could they trust? It would destroy everything good that both Matt and Daredevil had ever achieved (and put under public suspicion anyone known to have associated with him). And Fisk could always turn around and say “I told you so - this person was dangerous and he tried to destroy me, who is Hell’s Kitchen’s only true friend.” And he’d be believed.
But, using the tape from the prison fight would be like Fisk asking both the public and the legal system to take a stand against Matt Murdock first. To investigate him. Try to prove the veracity of the tape with other supporting evidence. There’d be people coming out saying “I believe the tape”, and others - “I believe Matt, cause this is crazy to accuse someone, who is a proven hero from childhood, who is also blind, to be this murderous vigilante who shot up a newsroom”. Fisk wouldn't be the one controlling the narrative, telling people what to think. There’s too much risk in that. There’s too much indignity for someone like Fisk to have his evidence - the false reality that he builds for himself and his subjects - to be questioned like that.
- There’s the fact that Daredevil works closely with Nelson & Murdock, suggesting a connection of some kind (Fisk would know from his dirty cops that Nelson & Murdock was repping Carl Hoffman after Daredevil saved Hoffman's life). But the strongest evidence would come from dissecting Midland Circle. Matt Murdock’s involvement with the other Defenders can be sorta explained by his professional relationship to Jessica Jones, but then Matt Murdock gets “kidnapped” by her and Luke, then disappears, and Daredevil disappears at the same time? (And there's no indication that Danny was impersonating Daredevil like he did in the comics during "The Devil in Cell Block D" arc at any point between The Defenders and Iron Fist season 2, otherwise he or Colleen would've brought it up) And then, of course, Matt Murdock shows up again right as Daredevil also returns. Matt also vanishes from the Bulletin when the police show up and everyone else who was in the office is either dead or injured, although it seems like no one but Foggy or Karen realize that the real Daredevil was there to fight Dex, so it might be harder to use that fact as effective evidence.
"People have bailed on Matt his whole life. And I'm not gonna be one of them."
I love that he says this and all but, is Foggy not gonna acknowledge the fact that he did bail on Matt? Twice? Like, regardless of how Matt contributed to their conflict, and regardless of the fact that Foggy came back, Foggy did make the choice to leave Matt in both Seasons 1 and 2. And it pretty clearly wrecked Matt.
- Season 1: Foggy needing space in "Nelson v. Murdock" is understandable, but the way he left Matt was pretty terrible. He never said he needed space and would come back later to talk it out more. He weaponized leaving and he HAD to know that would hurt Matt.
- Season 2: When Matt and Foggy are fighting in the courhouse bathroom about Elektra, Foggy doesn’t listen to Matt and then tries to leave; Matt panics and gets aggressive. On top of that, Elektra could be considered a stalker at this point with her behavior and she’s absolutely emotionally abusive. Foggy would rather just leave Matt in that situation without talking about it? That had to have reinforced Matt’s choices to get closer with Elektra and continue working with her. That’s how emotionally manipulative people behave and they use that to separate you from other loved ones. Then at the end of the season, Foggy goes his own way and goes months without talking to Matt, who literally has no one else in his life (based on context clues in The Defenders). And there’s not a lot of indication of whether or not Matt tried to reach out to Foggy or maybe he felt he needed to give him space (we do know that Foggy knew Matt was grieving Elektra and Foggy was definitely keeping in touch with Karen). This might have contributed to why he was okay dying beneath Midland Circle, and maybe his suicidal tendencies at the start of season 3, more than the loss of his senses: yes, Foggy brought the suit to the precinct for Matt, but he doesn’t spend time with him, and he always threatened to leave Matt when Matt behaved in ways Foggy didn’t approve of.
- It's important to not stay in a relationship that’s hurting you. Karen seems to get that, what with her resistance to letting Matt back into her life. Foggy had a stronger relationship (5+ years) prior to learning about Matt’s identity, as opposed to Karen. Also, Karen made it clear that she knew Matt was keeping secrets and went out of her way to invite him to talk about it. Unlike Foggy who, as far as we can tell from canon, never picked up on Matt’s secrets, and never made it clear that he was open to hearing whatever Matt wasn’t telling him.
- On the other hand, Matt wasn't doing anything to Karen that she wasn't also doing in her own way to Matt. For example, Matt was off running around with Elektra and might have been emotionally cheating on Karen. He should have said his ex-girlfriend was back in town and maybe some vague context, because Matt really needed to process his history with Elektra. Meanwhile, Karen is doing the same thing with Frank Castle. Normal, not overloaded Matt would be extraordinarily jealous if he was able to pay attention. Matt is also more likely to let people hurt him because he would rather be with toxic people than be abandoned and alone, so the audience doesn't get a really objective view of these events (he immediately forgave Elektra for her deception—that she was allied with Stick—because at that point, she was all he had left). So when we get to season 3 and everyone is encouraging Karen to help Matt, she is only really hurt that Matt didn’t reach out to her to say he was alive. This is the Matt who was suicidal, and likely gave those efforts up because he was hyperfocused on catching Fisk. Those feelings don’t just go away, and that baggage would've been explored more if there was season 4.
- At the same time, though, from Matt’s POV, Karen ghosted him for months after the Daredevil reveal. Then when they start working things out, she really pushed him to be someone he’s not and had little tolerance for the Daredevil side of his life. Matt also only wanted to be Daredevil and probably felt Karen wouldn’t want to be a part of whatever life he was capable of living.
- It's possible Foggy figured some of this out when Matt was “dead”, and that’s why he was having nightmares and going through an existential crisis early in season 3. But the rest does seem to highlight a flaw in Foggy's character: yes, he is clearly stressed by Matt’s whole lifestyle as Daredevil. But he also needs to figure out what his lines are and then stick to them, instead of going back and forth with Matt with unclear boundaries that make it seem like the main predictor of whether they’ll have conflict is whether Foggy’s emotions boil over on that particular day, incidentally making Matt less inclined to tell him anything. (Like, it can’t just be that Foggy is generally scared of Matt dying, and then when Matt gets more injured suddenly Foggy’s really scared and then he’s yelling at Matt or threatening to leave him. No, Foggy needs to take responsibility for his own emotional state.) Foggy can either be friends with both Matt and Daredevil, or he can’t. If he can, the burden can’t be entirely on Matt to keep Foggy from freaking out.
- Foggy has led such a privileged life that he has to keep changing what he can or cannot accept. Matt has been living with a lot more insight into corruption and danger his entire life. Foggy has all these boundaries until he personally experiences a situation he didn’t foresee and then he pivots. He genuinely does not expect Fisk to order a hit on Elena Cardenas to meet his agenda. There are so many other moments where Foggy flips his stance because he’s learned a harsh new reality he couldn’t predict. It’s completely accurate to say he needs to take responsibility for his emotions and reactions, but because he really doesn’t know how to do that, it's easier for him to just take his frustration out on Matt.
- It's important to not stay in a relationship that’s hurting you. Karen seems to get that, what with her resistance to letting Matt back into her life. Foggy had a stronger relationship (5+ years) prior to learning about Matt’s identity, as opposed to Karen. Also, Karen made it clear that she knew Matt was keeping secrets and went out of her way to invite him to talk about it. Unlike Foggy who, as far as we can tell from canon, never picked up on Matt’s secrets, and never made it clear that he was open to hearing whatever Matt wasn’t telling him.
Why didn't Fisk go after Marci?
- As much as I understand Fisk targeting Foggy's family late in season 3, why didn't Fisk go after Foggy through Marci Stahl? Marci used to work at Landman & Zack, who were in Fisk's pocket in season 1. And considering the sorts of long-term plans Fisk is revealed to have implemented while he was in prison to gain leverage over people, it wouldn't be weird if he had some dirt on her from her L&Z days "just in case".
- At a character level, it's likely because Fisk respects women and in fact treats them better than he does the men in his life (and the one man he does care for, Wesley, was notably effeminate). Remember, he put his mother up in a very nice retirement home with a special dessert sent to her every night. He lets Vanessa modify his general choice of suits, he lets her take the lead in deciding what to do with Nadeem (even telling others, “Do whatever the lady tells you”). Madame Gao held enormous sway over Fisk and could easily intimidate him, such that he didn't directly retaliate against her (compare that to Nobu, where Fisk directly pitted him and Matt against each other). It can be all be traced back to how Fisk looks up to his mother, and the way she fixed everything for him after he killed his father. As such, while Fisk is not above going after women (as seen with Elena Cardenas, Julie Barnes, and Karen on multiple occasions), he generally prefers not to unless he has no choice. And it's probably for that reason that he decided that Foggy's family and their business were a better choice of gaining leverage over Foggy than going after his lawyer girlfriend.
What does the public know of Karen's connection to Fisk?
- As Ellison says when he finds Karen has been digging into Fisk despite him telling her not to, “If people see your name and know your connection to Fisk, it compromises this paper!” Ellison is clearly saying that Karen's connection to Fisk is public knowledge. But what exactly does he mean by that? Is Ellison referring to the fact that Karen's affiliated with Nelson & Murdock, and by extension Carl Hoffman (one of the key witnesses against Fisk)? Or is it Karen's connection to Ben Urich? Or is it on account of Karen's name being attached to the Union Allied case?
