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* CompleteMonster: Murmandamus is the Big Bad of ''Silverthorn'' and ''A Darkness at Sethanon''. A Pantathian [[SnakePeople serpent-priest]] who plans to bring the [[SealedEvilInACan long-banished]] [[AbusivePrecursors Valheru]] back into the world, Murmandamus disguises himself as the reincarnation of the moredhel's (dark elves) greatest leader, uniting the mountain, forest, and hill clans in a campaign of genocide against their human and eledhel enemies. He sends assassins after the Prince of Krondor, which gets numerous people caught in the crossfire. He steals the souls of his human servants in a ritual that involves [[HumanSacrifice sacrificing]] a [[WouldHurtAChild nine-year-old girl]]. He creates the Black Slayers, soulless moredhel, bound in service to him forevermore. He murders a seer who gave him the information he wanted, and massacres hundreds of slaves when he realizes that his campaign isn't going to start when he wants it to. In ''A Darkness at Sethanon'' he destroys the cities of Armengar and Sethanon, lines his headquarters at Sar-Sargoth with a thousand human heads on pikes, [[BadBoss kills hundreds of his own men in a fit of rage]], tramples his right-hand serpent-priest, Cathos, to death, consumes the souls of all those who have died aiding him, and in the end, tries to activate the Lifestone, an ArtifactOfDoom that will slay all life on Midkemia from bacteria to humanity, in order to loose the Valheru. Believing that he will attain demigodhood when the Valheru return, Murmandamus dies laughing about how "[[CardCarryingVillain I am a thing of death, Lord of the West. I am ever the servant of Darkness]]."

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* CompleteMonster: Murmandamus CompleteMonster:
** ''The Riftwar Saga'': [[TheHeavy Murmandamus]]
is the Big Bad of ''Silverthorn'' and ''A Darkness at Sethanon''. A Pantathian [[SnakePeople serpent-priest]] who plans to bring the [[SealedEvilInACan long-banished]] [[AbusivePrecursors Valheru]] back into the world, Murmandamus disguises himself as the reincarnation of the moredhel's (dark elves) greatest leader, uniting the mountain, forest, and hill clans in a campaign of genocide against their human and eledhel enemies. He sends assassins after the Prince of Krondor, which gets numerous people caught in the crossfire. He steals the souls of his human servants in a ritual that involves [[HumanSacrifice sacrificing]] a [[WouldHurtAChild nine-year-old girl]]. He creates the Black Slayers, soulless moredhel, bound in service to him forevermore. He murders a seer who gave him the information he wanted, and massacres hundreds of slaves when he realizes that his campaign isn't going to start when he wants it to. In ''A Darkness at Sethanon'' Sethanon'', he destroys the cities of Armengar and Sethanon, lines his headquarters at Sar-Sargoth with a thousand [[DecapitationPresentation human heads on pikes, pikes]], [[BadBoss kills hundreds of his own men in a fit of rage]], tramples his right-hand serpent-priest, Cathos, to death, consumes the souls of all those who have died aiding him, and in the end, tries to activate the Lifestone, an ArtifactOfDoom that will [[OmnicidalManiac slay all life life]] on Midkemia from bacteria to humanity, in order to loose the Valheru. Believing that he will attain demigodhood when the Valheru return, Murmandamus dies laughing about how "[[CardCarryingVillain I am a thing of death, Lord of the West. I am ever the servant of Darkness]]." "
** ''The Riftwar Legacy'': [[PsychoForHire Bear]], the BigBad of ''Krondor: Tear of the Gods'', is a vicious mercenary pirate initially employed as [[TheHeavy muscle]] by the sorcerer Leso Varen, aka Sidi, to gain the Tear of the Gods, quickly becoming something far more uncontrollable and ambitious. With the power of a dark amulet making him impervious to all forms of harm, Bear forces a pirate crew led by Knute to join him under the threat of death--making good on his threats by tortuously murdering two men for slights--and massacres the Ishapian ship carrying the Tear. Once he loses the Tear and is further betrayed by Knute, Bear resurfaces and comes down on Krondor in a vicious fury. Bear slaughters his way into a tavern, [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil pleasuring himself]] with Sir William's fiancée before murdering her, kills his way into the city jail and vengefully cuts Knute apart, and indiscriminately murders his way out of Krondor and through the sewers, lining dozens of bodies behind him and setting a populated orphanage on fire purely as a diversion. Once he's finally tracked down by William and a score of Krondorian soldiers, Bear gleefully [[BadBoss tosses his own men to die]] in his stead even despite his own invulnerability before single-handedly ripping apart the Krondorian guard and attempting to slay all those who stand before him and the Tear, proclaiming he'll be nothing more than a god. A barbarian too much even for the sinister Leso Varen, Bear is little more than animalistic wrath and savage fury on legs.



* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts off with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Tsurani woman. God! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

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* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts off with no ressource, resource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Tsurani woman. God! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...
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* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Tsurani woman. God! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

to:

* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of off with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Tsurani woman. God! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

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* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Tsurani woman. God ! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

to:

* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Tsurani woman. God ! God! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...


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* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot: In ''King of Foxes'', second book of the ''Conclave of Shadows'' trilogy, Talwin Hawkins joins Kaspar of Olasko and becomes TheMole for the Conclave of Shadows. Since the end of ''Talon of the Silver Hawk'', the narration mentioned several times that, in order to keep his cover intact, Talwin may have to hunt down and try to kill his friends of the Conclave if he's ordered to. So, you think the book will be the story of how he'll have to play a dangerous double-dealing, informing the Conclave while also hunting them in a convincing manner to not raise Kaspar's suspicions? Actually no. Talwin only accomplishes two missions for Kaspar, none of them having something to do with the Conclave. [[spoiler:He's then betrayed by Kaspar after the third and thrown in jail, not because he's been unmasked, but because he [[YouHaveFailedMe failed]]. The rest of the book is him jail-breaking and devising a plan to invade Kaspar's fortress.]]
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* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Trurani woman. God ! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

to:

* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Trurani Tsurani woman. God ! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitutes). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]. God ! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

to:

* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitutes).ParentalSubstitute). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth. birth and, because of that, ultimately chooses in the end of the book to [[spoiler:divorce with her loving second husband Hokanu in order to let him have a male heir for his own noble House]]. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]].Keyoke]]). During all this time, after each breakdown, she forces herself to keep the impassive face expected from a Trurani woman. God ! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

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* IronWoobie: Mara, in The Empire Trilogy. To elaborate, the first book begins with her learning the deaths of her father and her brother, before being forced to become the ruling lady of a weakened House while one of the most powerful noble families in the Empire wants her dead. During the Trilogy, she has to struggle to keep herself and the House Acoma alive, while the attempts of her enemies hurt and kill the ones she loves. In the first book, she starts of with no ressource, is nearly murdered before she could even mourn her father and brother, has to marry an abusive husband [[spoiler:and to plan his death after he gave her a son]] (which deeply scars her) and loses [[spoiler:Papewaio]] (one of her ParentalSubstitutes). In the second book, her [[spoiler:surrogate mother Nacoya dies to protect her son against an assassin]] and she has to send [[spoiler:her lover Kevin back in his world]]. In the third book, she has to challenge the Great Ones themselves. Her [[spoiler:first son Ayaki]] dies in the first chapter because of an assassin and she loses [[spoiler:her second baby]] because of a poisoning attempt. She also becomes sterile after her third birth. Then, in the end, the Great Ones' wrath causes the deaths of some of her closest servants and friends (including her [[spoiler:last remaining ParentalSubstitute Keyoke]]. God ! Talk about [[EarnYourHappyEnding earning your happy ending]]...

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*CompleteMonster: Murmandamus is the Big Bad of ''Silverthorn'' and ''A Darkness at Sethanon''. A Pantathian [[SnakePeople serpent-priest]] who plans to bring the [[SealedEvilInACan long-banished]] [[AbusivePrecursors Valheru]] back into the world, Murmandamus disguises himself as the reincarnation of the moredhel's (dark elves) greatest leader, uniting the mountain, forest, and hill clans in a campaign of genocide against their human and eledhel enemies. He sends assassins after the Prince of Krondor, which gets numerous people caught in the crossfire. He steals the souls of his human servants in a ritual that involves [[HumanSacrifice sacrificing]] a [[WouldHurtAChild nine-year-old girl]]. He creates the Black Slayers, soulless moredhel, bound in service to him forevermore. He murders a seer who gave him the information he wanted, and massacres hundreds of slaves when he realizes that his campaign isn't going to start when he wants it to. In ''A Darkness at Sethanon'' he destroys the cities of Armengar and Sethanon, lines his headquarters at Sar-Sargoth with a thousand human heads on pikes, [[BadBoss kills hundreds of his own men in a fit of rage]], tramples his right-hand serpent-priest, Cathos, to death, consumes the souls of all those who have died aiding him, and in the end, tries to activate the Lifestone, an ArtifactOfDoom that will slay all life on Midkemia from bacteria to humanity, in order to loose the Valheru. Believing that he will attain demigodhood when the Valheru return, Murmandamus dies laughing about how "[[CardCarryingVillain I am a thing of death, Lord of the West. I am ever the servant of Darkness]]."
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** To be fair, everyone was so focused on not dying that they didn't have much time until then to stop and think.

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** Nicholas conDoin, Arutha's third son. Mocked endlessly behind his back due to his deformed foot and bullied alot by his elder brothers he admired.
** Erik von Darkmoor's surrogate sister Rosalynn. She's brutally raped by Erik's half-brother Stefan and ends up pregnant with his child. She probably found closure in the form of Erik killing Stefan though.

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** [=James Jamison/Jimmy the Hand=] is an IronWoobie. He grew up on the streets after watching a drunken sailor kill his mother and once he becomes Arutha's squire, he goes through alot of physical abuse throughout his life and sees alot of death and horrible things and nearly dies a few times. Not once does he complain beyond snarky comments here and there. Luckily his determination pays off as he meets Gamina and they have a long and happy life together until their deaths.
** Nicholas conDoin, Arutha's third son. Mocked endlessly behind his back due to his deformed foot and bullied alot by his elder brothers he admired. \n He doesn't have much in the way of confidence as a young adult and when he has to kill for the first time, he's pretty horrified.
** Erik von Darkmoor's surrogate sister Rosalynn. She's brutally raped by Erik's half-brother Stefan and ends up pregnant with his child. She probably found closure in the form of Erik killing Stefan though.though.
** Eye of the Blue Winged Teal, or Teal for short, aka Talwin Hawkins' wife. Kidnapped when the Orosini were practically wiped out as a fifteen year old girl and raped endlessly until Talwin finds her when they're in their mid-late twenties and has a child from that rape who Talwin raises as his own. She's stated to never fully recover from her traumas, but she recovers enough to be HappilyMarried with Talwin and have another son.
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* TheScrappy: Prince Patrick. He's an arrogant spoilt brat who rules over the Western Realm and is clearly unfit for the position to the point that no one really seems to like working for him and Pug can barely tolerate him.

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* TheScrappy: Prince Patrick. He's an arrogant spoilt brat who rules over the Western Realm and is clearly unfit for the position to the point that no one really seems to like working for him and Pug can barely tolerate him.him.
* TheWoobie: Quite a few examples, actually.
** Pug conDoin, TheHero of the overall series. Despite his amazing powers, he was cursed to see everyone he loves die before him due to a deal with the Goddess of Death. All of his family and closest friends die and he can do nothing but watch it happen. [[spoiler: The only life he's able to save is his son Magnus' due to a fluke on his part as well as a deal with the gods to die in his place.]] Basically, Pug's life sucks.
** Pug's son, William conDoin's life sucks too, but not as much. He sees two women he loves die, the first woman is also heavily implied to have been raped before being murdered and dies in his arms. The second woman is who he considers his OneTrueLove and he has to MercyKill her since she was possessed by a demon and it would have been impossible to save her. Thanks to these experiences, William gives up on romance forever and dies alone in the Serpentwar.
** Nicholas conDoin, Arutha's third son. Mocked endlessly behind his back due to his deformed foot and bullied alot by his elder brothers he admired.
** Erik von Darkmoor's surrogate sister Rosalynn. She's brutally raped by Erik's half-brother Stefan and ends up pregnant with his child. She probably found closure in the form of Erik killing Stefan though.

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Cut CM entry for having no context; if anyone wants to re-add, discuss it here first.


* CompleteMonster: necromancer Leso Varen.
** The Emerald Queen.



** Note that there is ONE character in all the books who's been to Elvandar and has anything negative to say about it: Calis, Tomas and Aglaranna's son. He considers its static, unchanging ways to be "boring" and vastly prefers human company.

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** Note that there There is ONE character in all the books who's been to Elvandar and has anything negative to say about it: Calis, Tomas and Aglaranna's son. He considers its static, unchanging ways to be "boring" and vastly prefers human company.

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This isn\'t actually YMMV. Moving.


* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. However, the Moredhel are not called the Brotherhood of the Dark Path for nothing - signs at least point to that Path being what keeps them from re-joining their kin. AmbitionIsEvil, much?
** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed. On the other hand, all pure-blooded elves seems magically drawn to Elvandar, not just the moredhel, but even the star elves, whose existence was unknown to the Spellweavers, suggesting that this may not actually have been a result of deliberate brainwashing.]]
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** Any Dasati who has risen to an influential position within their society will almost certainly be one as well.
** Demons generally are.
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* TheProblemWithLicensedGames: Avoided, as ''Betrayal at Krondor'' received critical acclaim and Feist liked it enough to novelize it personally. He even transported some of the game characters into his later books.

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* TheProblemWithLicensedGames: Avoided, as ''Betrayal at Krondor'' received critical acclaim and Feist liked it enough to novelize it personally. He even transported some of the game characters into his later books.books.
* TheScrappy: Prince Patrick. He's an arrogant spoilt brat who rules over the Western Realm and is clearly unfit for the position to the point that no one really seems to like working for him and Pug can barely tolerate him.
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** Demons generally are.
** The Emerald Queen.
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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed. On the other hand, all pure-blooded elves seems magically drawn to Elvandar, not just the moredhel, but even the star elves, whose existence was unknown to the Spellweavers, suggesting that this may not actually have been a result of deliberate brainwashing.]]

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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed. On the other hand, all pure-blooded elves seems magically drawn to Elvandar, not just the moredhel, but even the star elves, whose existence was unknown to the Spellweavers, suggesting that this may not actually have been a result of deliberate brainwashing.]]]]
* TheProblemWithLicensedGames: Avoided, as ''Betrayal at Krondor'' received critical acclaim and Feist liked it enough to novelize it personally. He even transported some of the game characters into his later books.
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** Note that there is ONE character in all the books who's been to Elvandar and has anything negative to say about it: Calis, Tomas and Aglaranna's son. He considers its static, unchanging ways to be "boring" and vastly prefers human company.

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* IdiotPlot: Not a major issue, but; none of the military leadership types in 'Shadow of a Dark Queen' realise that the forces working for The BigBad a navy until it is pointed out to them late in the book by a conscript. This is despite the fact that they know she: a.)needs to invade the Kingdom of the Isles and b.) currently has her massive army on the wrong continent. Played completely straight.
** In fairness to the military leadership, the last time dark forces tried to invade The Kingdom, they used magic to transport their army. And at the time they thought the BigBad was more interested in seizing and maintaining local control than there were preparing an invasion.

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* IdiotPlot: Not a major issue, but; none of the military leadership types A last-minute plan change in 'Shadow ''Shadow of a Dark Queen' realise Queen'' arises when Roo remarks that the forces working for The BigBad a navy until it is pointed out Emerald Queen will need to them late in the book by build a conscript. This is despite the fact that they know she: a.)needs to invade the Kingdom of the Isles and b.) currently has her massive new armada before she can send an army on halfway around the wrong continent. Played completely straight.
** In fairness
world, and Calis and company decide to the military leadership, the last time dark forces tried try destroying Novindus' biggest shipyard to invade The Kingdom, they used magic to transport their army. And at the time they put her back several years. Until Roo spoke up, ''nobody'' thought to ask where she would get ships of the BigBad was more interested in seizing size and maintaining local control than there were preparing an number she would need to carry out her inevitable invasion.
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They knew from the start that the Emerald Queen needed a navy. They just didn\'t realize she\'d need to build it herself.
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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed. On the other hand, all pure-blooded elves seems magically drawn to Elvandar, not just the moredhel, even the star elves, whose existence was unknown to the Spellweavers, suggesting that this may not actually have been a result of deliberate brainwashing.]]

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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed. On the other hand, all pure-blooded elves seems magically drawn to Elvandar, not just the moredhel, but even the star elves, whose existence was unknown to the Spellweavers, suggesting that this may not actually have been a result of deliberate brainwashing.]]
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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]

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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed. On the other hand, all pure-blooded elves seems magically drawn to Elvandar, not just the moredhel, even the star elves, whose existence was unknown to the Spellweavers, suggesting that this may not actually have been a result of deliberate brainwashing.]]
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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:* Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]

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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:* [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]

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* MarySueTopia: The eledhel in Elvandar. They are all morally upstanding, all beautiful, all skilled. Their very home is a work of art, the mere sight of it sure to drive the most grizzled veteran to tears. They harbor no resentment for anyone, regardless of reason. Any elves who don't live as they do are considered unfortunate deviations from the ideal (as the term "The Returning" implies), but are generally happy to abandon their whole life's worth of teachings and values (and, in the case of the moredhel, family and friends too) and go live with the eledhel as soon as they realise how awesome they are. The glamredhel literally skip off to Elvandar as soon as they learn it exists. And of course, moredhel can go "good" and become eledhel, but no eledhel ever goes bad. Ever.



** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]

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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: [[hottip:* Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]
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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[Loss of Identity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]

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** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[Loss of Identity [[LossOfIdentity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]
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Dunno, the Returning seems pretty blatant YMMV material to me. I rephrased the arguments in a more coherent form, if that helps.


* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. However, the Moredhel are not called the Brotherhood of the Dark Path for nothing - signs at least point to that Path being what keeps them from re-joining their kin. AmbitionIsEvil, much?

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* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. However, the Moredhel are not called the Brotherhood of the Dark Path for nothing - signs at least point to that Path being what keeps them from re-joining their kin. AmbitionIsEvil, much?much?
** One controversial issue is the Returning (i.e. when a moredhel [[Loss of Identity leaves behind their former life]] and [[HeelFaceTurn embraces the ways of the eledhel]]): HeelFaceTurn, or HeelFaceBrainwashing? [[hottip:*: Taken at face value in the books, the Returning is held to be miraculous by the eledhel, and considered the result of foul witchcraft and mind-manipulation by the moredhel, not to mention a great tragedy. The Returning happens when a moredhel is ready and chooses to let go of their old war-like ways and abandon the Dark Path. No non-moredhel character in the books ever voices the opinion that the Returning is anything but a great thing to happen - not even the ones doing the Returning, despite how painful it must be for them. On the other hand, there are several details in the books that make it sound a bit suspicious. First there's the question of how and why a moredhel with no prior exposure to the ways of the eledhel (and no way to even know what those ways even are, exactly) should ''naturally'' decide to abandon the entirety of the world-view they've been raised with and forsake their family and responsibilities and go buddy up with their ancestral enemies. Then there's the process of Returning, which involves the affected moredhel starting to act odd and distant over a span of years, culminating in a single, sudden and, it seems, inevitable switch to eledhel, at which point they run for Elvandar - in other words, something that doesn't look like the result of natural changes in personality, but instead an affliction of sorts. On that note, there's the fact that the Returning is attributed (by moredhel and eledhel alike) to the "Call of Elvandar", i.e. its magic, which, as known from the books, is at least significantly shaped by the Spellweavers (the eledhel mages). There is evidence from ''Magician'' that the Spellweavers can discreetly manipulate a person's personality and suppress certain impulses, as they did with Tomas. (Them doing it en-masse would also explain how they can keep Elvandar a peaceful utopia, despite the moredhel and the eledhel being the same people.) Plus, trying to resist the Call is physically painful. And lastly there's the problem that the Call seems to naturally target more goodish/less Dark Path-heavy moredhel. Since a moredhel who Returns is removed from the moredhel population, the Returning is obviously ''getting in the way'' of the moredhel becoming less evil as a people. To support this, in the case of both of the Returned moredhel we get to know in the books, it's quite likely that the moredhel people would have been better off if they'd stayed.]]
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* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series.

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* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. However, the Moredhel are not called the Brotherhood of the Dark Path for nothing - signs at least point to that Path being what keeps them from re-joining their kin. AmbitionIsEvil, much?

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Removed: 975

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Removed the discussion about the Returning. That does not belong on a work page, not even a YMMV page.


* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. For that matter, even by the eledhel the moredhel are treated as if nothing about their nation is worth preserving, and thus it can only be a good thing when a moredhel Returns, aka is converted against their will and is forced to abandon their old life, from their home and culture to their family, friends and obligations.
** What book were you reading? The Return isn't even close to a forced conversion. The Return is when one of the Moredhel *chooses* to abandon that life and return to the ways of the Eledhel.
*** So a moredhel can live their normal life for years and then, without any logical precedent for any change, "wake up" and randomly decide that they want to completely change their ways, and have nothing against humans after all, and would really like to be pacifists? Even though it means leaving behind everything they've ever known, friends, spouses, children? And this miraculous change of heart is attributed to some magical "Call of Elvandar" that has been influencing them for years? And trying to resist the Call is apparently ''physically painful''? And we already know from Magician that the Spellweavers are capable of discreetly manipulating an individual's personality and character, as they did with Tomas during his Valheru identity crisis? Ayup. Free will. Suuuuure.

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* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. For that matter, even by the eledhel the moredhel are treated as if nothing about their nation is worth preserving, and thus it can only be a good thing when a moredhel Returns, aka is converted against their will and is forced to abandon their old life, from their home and culture to their family, friends and obligations.\n** What book were you reading? The Return isn't even close to a forced conversion. The Return is when one of the Moredhel *chooses* to abandon that life and return to the ways of the Eledhel.\n*** So a moredhel can live their normal life for years and then, without any logical precedent for any change, "wake up" and randomly decide that they want to completely change their ways, and have nothing against humans after all, and would really like to be pacifists? Even though it means leaving behind everything they've ever known, friends, spouses, children? And this miraculous change of heart is attributed to some magical "Call of Elvandar" that has been influencing them for years? And trying to resist the Call is apparently ''physically painful''? And we already know from Magician that the Spellweavers are capable of discreetly manipulating an individual's personality and character, as they did with Tomas during his Valheru identity crisis? Ayup. Free will. Suuuuure.
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* MagnificentBastard: Duke James/Jimmy The Hand, in either sense of the word.

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* MagnificentBastard: Duke James/Jimmy The Hand, in either sense of the word.word.
* MoralDissonance: Many issues concerning the moredhel. One particularly jarring scene involves two scouts deliberately leading a troop of Tsurani into a group of migrating moredhel women and children. After dooming them to be cut to shreds, they talk in surprise about how unexpectedly pretty those moredhel were for a race that's [[BeautyEqualsGoodness supposed to be evil.]] While this could be a realistic depiction of the sort of enemy dehumanisation typical in prolonged warfare, one of the scouts, Martin, has been raised by eledhel, whose moral uptightness is placed on a pedestal many times in the series. For that matter, even by the eledhel the moredhel are treated as if nothing about their nation is worth preserving, and thus it can only be a good thing when a moredhel Returns, aka is converted against their will and is forced to abandon their old life, from their home and culture to their family, friends and obligations.
** What book were you reading? The Return isn't even close to a forced conversion. The Return is when one of the Moredhel *chooses* to abandon that life and return to the ways of the Eledhel.
*** So a moredhel can live their normal life for years and then, without any logical precedent for any change, "wake up" and randomly decide that they want to completely change their ways, and have nothing against humans after all, and would really like to be pacifists? Even though it means leaving behind everything they've ever known, friends, spouses, children? And this miraculous change of heart is attributed to some magical "Call of Elvandar" that has been influencing them for years? And trying to resist the Call is apparently ''physically painful''? And we already know from Magician that the Spellweavers are capable of discreetly manipulating an individual's personality and character, as they did with Tomas during his Valheru identity crisis? Ayup. Free will. Suuuuure.

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Changed: 66

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* IdiotPlot: Not a major issue, but; none of the military leadership types in 'Shadow of a Dark Queen' realise that the big bad needs a navy, until it is pointed out to them late in the book by a conscript. This is despite the fact that they know she: a.)wants to conquer the kingdom and b.) currently has her massive army on the wrong continent. Played completely straight.

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* IdiotPlot: Not a major issue, but; none of the military leadership types in 'Shadow of a Dark Queen' realise that the big bad needs forces working for The BigBad a navy, navy until it is pointed out to them late in the book by a conscript. conscript. This is despite the fact that they know she: a.)wants )needs to conquer invade the kingdom Kingdom of the Isles and b.) currently has her massive army on the wrong continent. Played completely straight.straight.
** In fairness to the military leadership, the last time dark forces tried to invade The Kingdom, they used magic to transport their army. And at the time they thought the BigBad was more interested in seizing and maintaining local control than there were preparing an invasion.
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* EsotericHappyEnding: At least for thousands of people from Midkemia in Riftwar Saga, who ended being slaves of the Tsurani during the invasion. Is not stated what happened to them and by Pug POV (and the statement of Asayaga) they either ended in hellish conditions dying like animals or as a sex toys of the conquerors. You know, a happy alliance between worlds.
** Later books (in particular The Empire Trilogy and the circumstances of Kevin leaving Mara's service) seem to indicate that a prisoner exchange and release of Midkemian slaves back to their homeworld followed.

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